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Morph
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MSP denounces methadone as a cure for addiction | Quote: | A senior Tory politician has been criticised after claiming many Scots drug addicts were sitting "fat, dumb and happy" on methadone.
Bill Aitken, the party's Holyrood justice spokesman, said improved abstinence-based projects were needed to help treat heroin users.
Drug treatment experts and Labour hit out at his comments.
Mr Aitken acknowledged methadone had its place but refused to apologise for his remarks to BBC Scotland.
The number of people treated for heroin use in Scotland reached record levels, according to figures released by the Scottish Government in July 2007.
About 21,000 people were said to be using methadone to help them with their addiction.
Mr Aitken told BBC Scotland's Politics Show using methadone as a first-resort treatment, which kept patients in a state of "partial suspended animation", had to be tackled.
"We have a very high proportion of the drug-abusing population sitting fat, dumb and happy on methadone," he said.
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Im sure that the MSP had his reasons for stating this. I do agree that for some heroin users methadone is a good stop gap before quitting completely. However i do know that some users swap one addiction for another.I would be interested to know what the forum thought
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Aventinian
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I doubt any of us will have the experience to be able to more than speculate, which is what Bill Aitken was doing. As such, I think he should've been more reserved in his language.
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Morph
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well i dont know the back ground of every member of the forum and im sure someone may have an oppinion on the matter. Although a am firmly in the camp of thinking before speaking, unlike some Mps
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Reluctant Hero
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It is certainly an issue if the trend continues rising to new levels.
Don't know the facts and figures, but if heroin costs shed loads and if methadone gets prescribed free, then it is not hard to see why someone may substitute one for the other.
However, I think Aitken was just trying to get a reaction and make himself heard. What is it with Tories and drugs? They seem to get on their hobbyborse about it every so often. 21,000 people may sound a lot, but it is 1 in every 200 people in Scotland.
Is that any worse than alcohol abuse where 2 in every 5 men and 1 in every 4 women in Scotland exceed the weekly recommended amount of alcohol?
It is easy for Aitken and his mates to take pot shots at heroin addicts. After all they are not likely to vote for the Tories anyway. But people who like their bevvy? Well they may be potential Tory voters.
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Rinty
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I Do have plenty of direct experience of this through family and friends and the fact is that Methadone does help most who take it.
If we are judging it on how many people end up drug-free from using ONLy methadone as treatement then the results will not look good. But for many Methadone is the tool that stabilises their lives and helps them take other steps.
The problem with Aitkens attitude is that he thinks it is all or nothing and he doesnt really understand Methadone. But he is right in thinking that some poeple are left with just another addiction that costs them nothing. That, in my opinion, is more to do with lack of support services and alternative treatments than it is a problem for Methadone per se.
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youatethebabyjesus
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the problem with methadone is that it is not used correctly, mr. aitken is basically right. methadone should only be used as a short term stepping stone to abstinence and subsequaent postitive changes (for society and the individual). unofrtunately thanks to idiotic drug pilicies in this country addiction teams use methadone to 'stabilise' into decades, yes, decades (entire generations on methadone). methadone is now the 'norm' for thousands of people who are inadequate and unable to change and also know that being 'being on a script' allows very quick access to housing, benfits and not having to work as they are 'oan deeee l ayyyyyy'. these scnarios are enabled by s/w's and addiction workers who stupidly assume it is better that the addicted are better of on methadone and 'topping up' on heroin rather than just out behaving like the junkie masses.individual responsabilty is key here.
i suspect only a massive change in policy would entice many who have aandoned all hope in addictions to return to working in it, me included.
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Morph
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what would you suggest? I mean the system in place does have some flaws, however there are success stories too
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youatethebabyjesus
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| Morph wrote: | | what would you suggest? I mean the system in place does have some flaws, however there are success stories too |
can i suggest you use the freedom of information act, contact glasgow city council and ask how many people they have detoxed and moved on. ask how many more people they have taken onto their books in the last year and how many have been moved off.
success is not
1. getting more people on methadone
2. detoxing to abstinence virtually no-one
3. enabling whole families into addiction
4. no overall change in overdose figures
5. bbv numbers continue to rise year on year
and bill aitken is foolish to suggest the situation is being mismanaged? get real people.
i'll leave you with this to consider
more people on methadone = greater justification for more money to pumped into these services. who is that helping?
the foolish people who take opiates and end up on methadone (SEE ABOVE) or the s/w addiction managers who make a case for funding.
it's a cash cow.
it is considerably cheaper to detox someone from opiates at home over 10 days than keep them on methadone and paying for pharmacists, medications, s/w's pay.
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Rinty
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"the problem with methadone is that it is not used correctly, mr. aitken is basically right. methadone should only be used as a short term stepping stone to abstinence and subsequaent postitive changes"
That is just not true. I know people who used methadone for decades and manged to have succesful careers while on it. It can stabilise some for decades and for others it is short term.
You talk about having more people on methadone is isolation, as if it didnt follow from far more people being on heroin.
In fact, in very recent times, methadone has been capped and in many areas of the country it is hard to get prescribed, limiting yet another option for addicts.
The problem we have is not methadone, it is the lack of other alternatives and support. To portray this as methadone vs abstinenence is simplistic beyond belief.
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youatethebabyjesus
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| Rinty wrote: | "the problem with methadone is that it is not used correctly, mr. aitken is basically right. methadone should only be used as a short term stepping stone to abstinence and subsequaent postitive changes"
That is just not true. I know people who used methadone for decades and manged to have succesful careers while on it. It can stabilise some for decades and for others it is short term.
You talk about having more people on methadone is isolation, as if it didnt follow from far more people being on heroin.
In fact, in very recent times, methadone has been capped and in many areas of the country it is hard to get prescribed, limiting yet another option for addicts.
The problem we have is not methadone, it is the lack of other alternatives and support. To portray this as methadone vs abstinenence is simplistic beyond belief. |
i worked in addictions for 12 years, i'm afraid you are wrong. there are loads of alternatives to methadone which are cheap and quickly get people detoxed, combinations of subutex and nalorex or lofexidine and nalorex are ideal and can keep someone abstinent into the long term.they are readily available via gp's or addcition teams.addicts CHOOSE to stay on the jungle juice. why someone would CHOOSE to stay on methadone for decades as opposed to getting detoxed ridicules the notion that someone has willpower or motivation to change.have a look at procheska and diclimente.
if you really do have expirience in this simple field then you'll be happy to give us rough %'s of how many people you know of succesfully maintained on methadone as opposed to the % on and off methadone, topping up and spreading bbv's in your community.
i get the feeling that your viewpoint is very much based on that it is the s/w's, gp's,nhs and the states fault that people have crawled into these holes and cannot get out. feel free to find out how high the dna's are for people who choose to detox, just ask and addiction worker or a gp. it is disgusting how the addicted say they want a detox, get offered a service then dissapear after 2 appointments.
no, you do not know what you are talking about.full.stop.
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Rinty
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| Quote: | | i worked in addictions for 12 years, i'm afraid you are wrong. there are loads of alternatives to methadone which are cheap and quickly get people detoxed, combinations of subutex and nalorex or lofexidine and nalorex are ideal and can keep someone abstinent into the long term.they are readily available via gp's or addcition teams.addicts CHOOSE to stay on the jungle juice. why someone would CHOOSE to stay on methadone for decades as opposed to getting detoxed ridicules the notion that someone has willpower or motivation to change.have a look at procheska and diclimente. |
There are alternative drugs, what I was talking about was alternatives to substitutes and the support needed to make the transition to being free from drugs. As to someone 'ridculing the idea that they have the willpower or motivation to change", I dont know where you get that from. Most addicts that I know do not have the will power and their motivation is fleeting depending on events and circumstances. So I dont know who or what you are ridiculing.
| Quote: | | if you really do have expirience in this simple field then you'll be happy to give us rough %'s of how many people you know of succesfully maintained on methadone as opposed to the % on and off methadone, topping up and spreading bbv's in your community. |
My experience, as I said, is personal through friends and family. Therefore I couldnt give an exact number of anything. What I can tell you is that methadone, as it used currently, does help some people, but usually only those with back up help and some sort of plan ahead of methadone. I know that many people 'top up' but couldnt give the figures of addicts spreading BBV's in my community, and think that it is a different question altogether from Aitken's, "abstinence good/methadone bad" attitude.
| Quote: | | i get the feeling that your viewpoint is very much based on that it is the s/w's, gp's,nhs and the states fault that people have crawled into these holes and cannot get out. |
Then perhaps you should discuss this wth me rather than trying to sum me up in one or wo posts in a thread. Creating a straw man would be easy route but wouldnt get us anywhere.
I dont believe it is the states fault that the people the I know who are addicts or have been addicts in the past got into the hole they were in but I do think that national policy on how we deal with it is wrong is it isnt working. People like Aitken dont help because they think they can channel in on ignorant and simplified solutions. His partner in crime in this area is Phil Gallie who often appears in the local papers with complaints about the methadone bill, without offering any alternatives other than abstinence.
| Quote: | | feel free to find out how high the dna's are for people who choose to detox, just ask and addiction worker or a gp. it is disgusting how the addicted say they want a detox, get offered a service then dissapear after 2 appointments. |
You see, that is where we differ. I also think it is a problem that many addicts dont follow up on treatment, but I dont, like you, find it 'disgusting'.
I see it as part of the problem and frustrating rather than disgusting. Part of the problem depends on where you are. Glasgow for instance can react very quickly when an addict seeks help, other areas dont. If the addict doesnt get appointments or help for weeks after asking then the chances are that the spark that made them want to get help could have gone out.
We had an excellent family support service in my town that closed last year. It was able to help those sort of situations by offering counselling and other services so that when the addicts were awaiting treatment they could continue on a positive path. They closed due to lack of funding.
I belive that there are only 20 rehab places for the whole of Ayrshire and Arran when, at the last count, there were over 60 addicts in Cumnock alone.
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youatethebabyjesus
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| Rinty wrote: | | Quote: | | i worked in addictions for 12 years, i'm afraid you are wrong. there are loads of alternatives to methadone which are cheap and quickly get people detoxed, combinations of subutex and nalorex or lofexidine and nalorex are ideal and can keep someone abstinent into the long term.they are readily available via gp's or addcition teams.addicts CHOOSE to stay on the jungle juice. why someone would CHOOSE to stay on methadone for decades as opposed to getting detoxed ridicules the notion that someone has willpower or motivation to change.have a look at procheska and diclimente. |
There are alternative drugs, what I was talking about was alternatives to substitutes and the support needed to make the transition to being free from drugs. As to someone 'ridculing the idea that they have the willpower or motivation to change", I dont know where you get that from. Most addicts that I know do not have the will power and their motivation is fleeting depending on events and circumstances. So I dont know who or what you are ridiculing.
| Quote: | | if you really do have expirience in this simple field then you'll be happy to give us rough %'s of how many people you know of succesfully maintained on methadone as opposed to the % on and off methadone, topping up and spreading bbv's in your community. |
My experience, as I said, is personal through friends and family. Therefore I couldnt give an exact number of anything. What I can tell you is that methadone, as it used currently, does help some people, but usually only those with back up help and some sort of plan ahead of methadone. I know that many people 'top up' but couldnt give the figures of addicts spreading BBV's in my community, and think that it is a different question altogether from Aitken's, "abstinence good/methadone bad" attitude.
| Quote: | | i get the feeling that your viewpoint is very much based on that it is the s/w's, gp's,nhs and the states fault that people have crawled into these holes and cannot get out. |
Then perhaps you should discuss this wth me rather than trying to sum me up in one or wo posts in a thread. Creating a straw man would be easy route but wouldnt get us anywhere.
I dont believe it is the states fault that the people the I know who are addicts or have been addicts in the past got into the hole they were in but I do think that national policy on how we deal with it is wrong is it isnt working. People like Aitken dont help because they think they can channel in on ignorant and simplified solutions. His partner in crime in this area is Phil Gallie who often appears in the local papers with complaints about the methadone bill, without offering any alternatives other than abstinence.
| Quote: | | feel free to find out how high the dna's are for people who choose to detox, just ask and addiction worker or a gp. it is disgusting how the addicted say they want a detox, get offered a service then dissapear after 2 appointments. |
You see, that is where we differ. I also think it is a problem that many addicts dont follow up on treatment, but I dont, like you, find it 'disgusting'.
I see it as part of the problem and frustrating rather than disgusting. Part of the problem depends on where you are. Glasgow for instance can react very quickly when an addict seeks help, other areas dont. If the addict doesnt get appointments or help for weeks after asking then the chances are that the spark that made them want to get help could have gone out.
We had an excellent family support service in my town that closed last year. It was able to help those sort of situations by offering counselling and other services so that when the addicts were awaiting treatment they could continue on a positive path. They closed due to lack of funding.
I belive that there are only 20 rehab places for the whole of Ayrshire and Arran when, at the last count, there were over 60 addicts in Cumnock alone. |
ok, your personal expirience just does not cut it, you know very little in the grand scheme of things. also to suugest that cumnock (pop. 8,000) only has 60 addicts is just so off the mark you would not believe. and you do not believe that drug addicts wasting huge amounts of time and money of those trying provide a service is not disgusting, well it is, i worked on the coal face, it is shameful how so many of those utterly abuse the system, yes i feel it is disgusting. these peole are not mentally ill or physically disabled, they CHOOSE to ask for something and then choose not to turn up. should we feel sorry for them, should we employ more staff and see them at home perhaps we should pop round in the morning with their medication and bring them in fresh rolls and the papers.with your lack of knowledge i'm glad you are not making descicons in this field ( i hope your not but if you were we'd be in even more trouble).
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youatethebabyjesus
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i see as well that a service was closed due to lack of funding, think how much funding would be saved if those seeking services did not abuse them. the service closed because of the actions of the very people it is supposed to be helping.
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Rinty
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| Quote: | | ok, your personal expirience just does not cut it, you know very little in the grand scheme of things. also to suugest that cumnock (pop. 8,000) only has 60 addicts is just so off the mark you would not believe. |
For goodness sake why doesnt it cut it? I dont claim to have all the answers and I would like to see your work in the field if you refuse to listen to peoples personal experience.
My numbers on addicts in Cumnock was the last official figures and not my own figures, I would, like you, agree that it would be much more, making my point (that there are only 20 rehab places in the whole of Ayrshire) even more relevant.
| Quote: | | with your lack of knowledge i'm glad you are not making descicons in this field ( i hope your not but if you were we'd be in even more trouble). |
I wouldnt be best to make decisions as I am undecided on most of the issues surrounding grugs, there are no uniform answers in my opinion.
What I prefer to do is to listen to people, including you, and draw conclusions. To go on a full attack on me for thinking that we could provide a more efficient service seems a wee bit over the top.
| Quote: | | i see as well that a service was closed due to lack of funding, think how much funding would be saved if those seeking services did not abuse them. the service closed because of the actions of the very people it is supposed to be helping. |
I disagree as I believe that the particular service closed because the committee running it failed to apply for thr right grants in time. If you know beter then please tell me how it closed due to the actions of the addicts and their families that it helped.
But I agree that funding is wasted on assistance that is abused by people and people who dont follow up on the treatment offered. I offered you one reason that this sometimes happens (delays in providing the service) but this also happens in many other areas of NHS funding.
I know one person whose mental health problems means that they are forever missing doctors appointments and cancelling meetings with CPNs etc. It isn't only addicts who do this.
To me, if a service is falling down for whatever reason the best thing to do is to look at that service provision and keep it for those it works for and change it when it doesnt.
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youatethebabyjesus
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| Rinty wrote: | | Quote: | | ok, your personal expirience just does not cut it, you know very little in the grand scheme of things. also to suugest that cumnock (pop. 8,000) only has 60 addicts is just so off the mark you would not believe. |
For goodness sake why doesnt it cut it? I dont claim to have all the answers and I would like to see your work in the field if you refuse to listen to peoples personal experience.
My numbers on addicts in Cumnock was the last official figures and not my own figures, I would, like you, agree that it would be much more, making my point (that there are only 20 rehab places in the whole of Ayrshire) even more relevant.
| Quote: | | with your lack of knowledge i'm glad you are not making descicons in this field ( i hope your not but if you were we'd be in even more trouble). |
I wouldnt be best to make decisions as I am undecided on most of the issues surrounding grugs, there are no uniform answers in my opinion.
What I prefer to do is to listen to people, including you, and draw conclusions. To go on a full attack on me for thinking that we could provide a more efficient service seems a wee bit over the top.
| Quote: | | i see as well that a service was closed due to lack of funding, think how much funding would be saved if those seeking services did not abuse them. the service closed because of the actions of the very people it is supposed to be helping. |
I disagree as I believe that the particular service closed because the committee running it failed to apply for thr right grants in time. If you know beter then please tell me how it closed due to the actions of the addicts and their families that it helped.
But I agree that funding is wasted on assistance that is abused by people and people who dont follow up on the treatment offered. I offered you one reason that this sometimes happens (delays in providing the service) but this also happens in many other areas of NHS funding.
I know one person whose mental health problems means that they are forever missing doctors appointments and cancelling meetings with CPNs etc. It isn't only addicts who do this.
To me, if a service is falling down for whatever reason the best thing to do is to look at that service provision and keep it for those it works for and change it when it doesnt. |
i have no problem with a person with mental health or severe physical problems missing appointments, but the vast majority of drug addicts do not, they CHOOSE not to turn up and wastre valuable resources.
with a wee bit of investiagtion your rehab beds in ayrshire are for co-morbidity and not for detox and 'abstinence rehab'. there are no beds in ayrshire purely for drug rehab alone. they are not reqd. i suspect as this work is better being community based.
my work in the field of addictions and education in the same is excellent, i have listened to quite literally thousands of users and relatives, i have then drawn my own conclusions. if you had my expirience and knowledge i'm sure you would reach the same conclusions.
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Rinty
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"i have no problem with a person with mental health or severe physical problems missing appointments, but the vast majority of drug addicts do not, they CHOOSE not to turn up and wastre valuable resources. "
I agree (possibly not on it being a 'vast' majority) which is wy I dont understand your hostility. Of course many addicts do have dual problems and we still have, as you know, in many cases, a delay between seeking help and treatment being offered.
"they are not reqd. i suspect as this work is better being community based. "
There is very little community based work in Ayrshire, especially not around here.
"my work in the field of addictions and education in the same is excellent, i have listened to quite literally thousands of users and relatives, i have then drawn my own conclusions. if you had my expirience and knowledge i'm sure you would reach the same conclusions."
I dont doubt your experience. It is you who want to have some "whose got the biggest Cv" type competition.
I have known hundreds of addicts and families of addicts and I know many workers in the field who do not draw the same conclusions as you.
I dont really know exactly what your conclusions are though, as you have decided it is best to display your qualifications and rubbish my experience rather than make points.
On services and funds being wasted on many people we agree, even though you seem to want to argue with me based on some imaginary idea that I dont agree.
You didnt answer my point on the family support service that closed down. I do think that I have a better experinec and information on that particular service but you insist that it wasnt closed down for the reasons that I believe to be true. What makes you believe that it was closed due to abuse by service users?
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youatethebabyjesus
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| Rinty wrote: | "i have no problem with a person with mental health or severe physical problems missing appointments, but the vast majority of drug addicts do not, they CHOOSE not to turn up and wastre valuable resources. "
I agree (possibly not on it being a 'vast' majority) which is wy I dont understand your hostility. Of course many addicts do have dual problems and we still have, as you know, in many cases, a delay between seeking help and treatment being offered.
"they are not reqd. i suspect as this work is better being community based. "
There is very little community based work in Ayrshire, especially not around here.
"my work in the field of addictions and education in the same is excellent, i have listened to quite literally thousands of users and relatives, i have then drawn my own conclusions. if you had my expirience and knowledge i'm sure you would reach the same conclusions."
I dont doubt your experience. It is you who want to have some "whose got the biggest Cv" type competition.
I have known hundreds of addicts and families of addicts and I know many workers in the field who do not draw the same conclusions as you.
I dont really know exactly what your conclusions are though, as you have decided it is best to display your qualifications and rubbish my experience rather than make points.
On services and funds being wasted on many people we agree, even though you seem to want to argue with me based on some imaginary idea that I dont agree.
You didnt answer my point on the family support service that closed down. I do think that I have a better experinec and information on that particular service but you insist that it wasnt closed down for the reasons that I believe to be true. What makes you believe that it was closed due to abuse by service users? |
actually very few addicts have 'dual problems', they say they have but on psychiatric assessment the majority do not. no more or less than the average population.
i know that in terms of a detox there is a delay because the sddict will be asked to stabilise their drug use in preparation of a detox or being commenced on the meth, you cannot start a detox on some jagging 8 bags of scag per dey.
again with a wee bit of asking there is a massive community based alcohol and drug detox team based in prestwick as well as a well staffed co-morbidity team.
with regard to the most expirience and the biggest cv, there is no competition.sorry.
of course it was closed down due to lackof funding, what i'm saying is how much of these prcious funds were wasted by those who were supposed to attend and abused the system? do the math.
i hope these facts help you.
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Rinty
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"again with a wee bit of asking there is a massive community based alcohol and drug detox team based in prestwick as well as a well staffed co-morbidity team."
Prestwick is 20 miles and two buses from Cumnock, even further from outlying villages.
"i know that in terms of a detox there is a delay because the sddict will be asked to stabilise their drug use in preparation of a detox or being commenced on the meth, you cannot start a detox on some jagging 8 bags of scag per dey."
It's not just about starting detox, the help to stabilise their drug use and other support services are not there. In some cases even the appointment to discuss getting them off drugs is subject to a delay. In Glasgow I believe that action is kicjked off when an addict seeks help within a couple of days. In other parts of the country the delays can be weeks and, in some cases, this delay misses a window of opportunity.
"with regard to the most expirience and the biggest cv, there is no competition.sorry."
Er, that is my point. If your argument is going to continue to be based around you have more knowledge than me then we will get nowhere. Is this how you tereat the families of addicts in your job? Refuse to acept any point that they have on the basis that you are the expert?
"of course it was closed down due to lackof funding, what i'm saying is how much of these prcious funds were wasted by those who were supposed to attend and abused the system? do the math."
Again you will have to be specific with ypu superior knowledge re the family centre. We were under the impression that an administration error meaning a missed deadline for funding for the wages of the key workers was the cause.
I didnt know there was any 'maths' to do, other than the wages couldnt be paid so the service was closed and couldnt continue other than as it does now, with volunteers with no premises or services, doing very little.
But if you have specific information on this you should say instead of hinting about it. I am sure the users of the service and the families who set it up including a friend of mine whose son died through heroin would be very interested to hear as i will effect future funding applications.
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youatethebabyjesus
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| Rinty wrote: | "again with a wee bit of asking there is a massive community based alcohol and drug detox team based in prestwick as well as a well staffed co-morbidity team."
Prestwick is 20 miles and two buses from Cumnock, even further from outlying villages.
"i know that in terms of a detox there is a delay because the sddict will be asked to stabilise their drug use in preparation of a detox or being commenced on the meth, you cannot start a detox on some jagging 8 bags of scag per dey."
It's not just about starting detox, the help to stabilise their drug use and other support services are not there. In some cases even the appointment to discuss getting them off drugs is subject to a delay. In Glasgow I believe that action is kicjked off when an addict seeks help within a couple of days. In other parts of the country the delays can be weeks and, in some cases, this delay misses a window of opportunity.
"with regard to the most expirience and the biggest cv, there is no competition.sorry."
Er, that is my point. If your argument is going to continue to be based around you have more knowledge than me then we will get nowhere. Is this how you tereat the families of addicts in your job? Refuse to acept any point that they have on the basis that you are the expert?
"of course it was closed down due to lackof funding, what i'm saying is how much of these prcious funds were wasted by those who were supposed to attend and abused the system? do the math."
Again you will have to be specific with ypu superior knowledge re the family centre. We were under the impression that an administration error meaning a missed deadline for funding for the wages of the key workers was the cause.
I didnt know there was any 'maths' to do, other than the wages couldnt be paid so the service was closed and couldnt continue other than as it does now, with volunteers with no premises or services, doing very little.
But if you have specific information on this you should say instead of hinting about it. I am sure the users of the service and the families who set it up including a friend of mine whose son died through heroin would be very interested to hear as i will effect future funding applications. |
they will run clinics and do home visits in cimnock and wherever else.
why should there not be a delay, it's not as if it is an emergency?
in glasgow there is a 3 week upper limit for appt's (i assume ayrshire is similar). i know of no service in glasgow that see's people within a couple of days other than the drug crisis centre on west street.
not about being an expert, just very expirienced, you are not and thus your opinions are misguided.
i've know doubt that something was closed due to a clerical error, the point being ( i know for a fact) that services shut as they are abused by those they are meant to help.
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Rinty
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"why should there not be a delay, it's not as if it is an emergency?"
I didnt say that there shoudnt be a delay or that it was an emergency???
What I did was offer some explanation as to why some people might seek treatment and then not follow up on it.
"in glasgow there is a 3 week upper limit for appt's (i assume ayrshire is similar). i know of no service in glasgow that see's people within a couple of days other than the drug crisis centre on west street."
It is far from the same in Ayrshire, in fact, the reasearch done for Rosemary Byrnes Drugs Rehabilitation bill in the Scottish parliament, showed that the discrepancies across Scotland were wide.
"not about being an expert, just very expirienced, you are not and thus your opinions are misguided."
They are only observations based on my experience and the opinions of those I know who are addicts, families of addicts and freinds who work in the same field as you. I'd say as many agree with those obseravtions as dont. You keep insisting on this comparison but you shouldnt be so insecure about it. I dont doubt your experience, respect your conclusions drawn from that experience and am not questioning your opinions or experience. There is no need to keep bringing it up.
"i've know doubt that something was closed due to a clerical error, the point being ( i know for a fact) that services shut as they are abused by those they are meant to help."
So are you now saying that you dont know the reason for this service closing rather than insisting that you knew more about this particular service thanlocals do.
I have never questioned you opinions on services being 'abused' by users or that other services may have shut for that reason. You, however, insisted that this servicein Cumnock, set-up and run by families of addicts, was closed because the usres abused it.
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youatethebabyjesus
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| Rinty wrote: | "why should there not be a delay, it's not as if it is an emergency?"
I didnt say that there shoudnt be a delay or that it was an emergency???
What I did was offer some explanation as to why some people might seek treatment and then not follow up on it.
"in glasgow there is a 3 week upper limit for appt's (i assume ayrshire is similar). i know of no service in glasgow that see's people within a couple of days other than the drug crisis centre on west street."
It is far from the same in Ayrshire, in fact, the reasearch done for Rosemary Byrnes Drugs Rehabilitation bill in the Scottish parliament, showed that the discrepancies across Scotland were wide.
"not about being an expert, just very expirienced, you are not and thus your opinions are misguided."
They are only observations based on my experience and the opinions of those I know who are addicts, families of addicts and freinds who work in the same field as you. I'd say as many agree with those obseravtions as dont. You keep insisting on this comparison but you shouldnt be so insecure about it. I dont doubt your experience, respect your conclusions drawn from that experience and am not questioning your opinions or experience. There is no need to keep bringing it up.
"i've know doubt that something was closed due to a clerical error, the point being ( i know for a fact) that services shut as they are abused by those they are meant to help."
So are you now saying that you dont know the reason for this service closing rather than insisting that you knew more about this particular service thanlocals do.
I have never questioned you opinions on services being 'abused' by users or that other services may have shut for that reason. You, however, insisted that this servicein Cumnock, set-up and run by families of addicts, was closed because the usres abused it. |
exactly, delays are irrelvent.
there is only 1 explantion, they have chosen not to seek help and then in a self absorbed way did not allow the appt. to be re-allocated to someone really wanted it.
hmmmm, rosemary burns, lets not go there, 'mithers agaaynst drigs' and all that nonsense. not discrepencies but local policies i think you'll find.
having to repaet myself here, i have no doubt that service was closed becuase of the reason you say, I'M saying that many services like the one you speak of will have been shut all over gt. britain because they are abised by those they are trying to help.
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Rinty
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"exactly, delays are irrelvent."
Thats not what I said, delays are relevant to some users and not to others, but it is obvious to me that we stand a better chance overall if the service across the country was the same as the best service.
"there is only 1 explantion, they have chosen not to seek help and then in a self absorbed way did not allow the appt. to be re-allocated to someone really wanted it."
Yes, but I would assume that the person who was first allocated it appeared to want it as well.
"hmmmm, rosemary burns, lets not go there, 'mithers agaaynst drigs' and all that nonsense. not discrepencies but local policies i think you'll find."
You'e getting mixed up, Rosemary BYRNE (not burns) was never a member of Mothers against drugs. She is more closely associated with the Lighthouse foundation. She is the mother of a heroin addict and lost her daughter-in-law to heroin a couple of years back though, and was an MSP when she undertook the research for the bill. It showed many discrepancies in local policy and delivery (you say semantics i say pedantics let's call the whole thing off  ). During the research MAD did come round to her way of thinking on some ssues just as she changed her mind during the research when speaking to users and drugs workers.
I didnt work on the research for the bill, that was done by a nurse who worked with addicts (for longer than your 12 years I believe) and a professional parliamentary reseracher and involved the views of drugs workers, health professionals, campaigners, addicts and their families.
"having to repaet myself here, i have no doubt that service was closed becuase of the reason you say, I'M saying that many services like the one you speak of will have been shut all over gt. britain because they are abised by those they are trying to help."
I dont doubt it. What we need to then address is how these services can be effective and not just dismiss addicts as abusers of services. If this is being repeated across the UK then we need to understand why and make sure that we change policy and delivery to be effective. It is not just addicts and their families that are affected by addiction.
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youatethebabyjesus
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i've just told you why.no willpower nor responsabilty.
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Rinty
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So what do you do with those ones?
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youatethebabyjesus
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| Rinty wrote: | | So what do you do with those ones? |
nothing, let them get on with it or jail them when therie offences rack up. first rule of addiction, there is no point unless the person wants to change. now that is fact, from aa to gambling to heroin. the person must want to change.
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Rinty
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Yes, but this does not help the society, the jails, their families etc. It might 'serve them right' but the public are left with an even bigger cost.
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youatethebabyjesus
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| Rinty wrote: | | Yes, but this does not help the society, the jails, their families etc. It might 'serve them right' but the public are left with an even bigger cost. |
are you suggesting we force people into treatment?
who decides?
the addicts are not incapacitated, they make choices, if they want help offer what you can. if they don't let their actions take the course, this will result in aids or other bbv's, jail,death. we live in a free country, you can't force people to change their addictive behaviour, they MUST want to. there are plently of junkies out there who are quite happy with the lifestyle they have believe it or not.
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Rinty
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"are you suggesting we force people into treatment? "
No! Cant you actually deal with what I say rather than try to accredit other opinions and statements to me?
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youatethebabyjesus
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| Rinty wrote: | "are you suggesting we force people into treatment? "
No! Cant you actually deal with what I say rather than try to accredit other opinions and statements to me? |
i did, there is nothing you can do with them
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Neil
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I am coming round to a belief in legalisation of everything. The cost of illegality, in inducing crime, in deaths due to variations in quality & what drugs are cut with & the social & corruption effects of the amounts of money washing around in organised crime seem to me to be worse than the direct effects & to be largely suffered by those who have not consented to take the stuff.
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Shagpile
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| Neil wrote: | | I am coming round to a belief in legalisation of everything. The cost of illegality, in inducing crime, in deaths due to variations in quality & what drugs are cut with & the social & corruption effects of the amounts of money washing around in organised crime seem to me to be worse than the direct effects & to be largely suffered by those who have not consented to take the stuff. |
Not to mention the revenue in tax it might generate, which could be used in part, for awareness campaigns etc. I also am coming round to the idea of legalising everything, mainly on health grounds. It'll never happen though.
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Morph
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I dont believe that legalisation would make life better.
It wold create problems for society in other areas e.g. Stealing to fund habits. By hiding the problemwe would set ourselves up for a fall.
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