New Tool for the Independence of the Catalan Countries

alexis · New Tool for the Independence of the Catalan Countries

"Let's join the map for an Own State for the Catalan Countries" is a campaign born with the goal to visualize in a map all the people who want the Independence of the Catalan Countries. www.estatpropi.cat

In a moment when not even the politicians are aware of the support the movement for Independence has in the Catalan Countries, "Let's join the map for an Own State for the Catalan Countries" proposes a national self-recount.

The campaign wants to help improving in the endemic problem of the Catalan people, self confidence, showing ourselves to the whole wide world as a people who is alive and resilient (resisting) making use of the latest technologies.

If you want to support this campaign, you can collaborate spreading information about the campaign, translating the campaign webpage to your language or economically supporting "Let's join the map for an Own State" campaign. There are new features coming soon and we need some international support

Dave Coull

Alexis posted ""Let's join the map for an Own State for the Catalan Countries" - and right away, in that slogan, we can see the biggest problem for Catalan independence, the thing that will mean it is Scotland, not Catalonia, which will be the trail-blazer of the re-emerging nations of Western Europe.

Nobody talks about unifying "the Scottish Countries", because there is only one. Just one, really quite remarkably homogenous, Scottish country, with recognised borders, and no desire to exceed those borders. What about the Ulster Scots, you might ask - but no serious political organisation seeking independence for Scotland has the slightest intention of claiming a single inch of Ulster. As for Berwick, the general concensus appears to be that the English can keep it. In short, we all seem remarkably content to have independence for the territory which is at present administered by the devolved Scottish Parliament.

But look at the map of the "Greater Catalonia" created by "the Catalan Countries" joining together. No way is that just the "province" at present administered by the Catalan Parliament. It includes a lot of extra territory in the North, West, East, and South. In the north, that "Catalonia" includes considerable territory which is at present ruled as part of France. In the West, it swallows up the principality of Andorra, as well as other territories. To the South, a long stretch of the coast of Eastern Spain is included, including Valencia. To the East, Majorca, Minorca, and the Balearic Islands are included.

Now, maybe there is a case for including all of this as "Catalonia". But picking a fight with France ( !!!!!!! ) as well as Spain, and including a lot of other territories which are certain to be hotly disputed, shows us why we are lucky to have a less-complicated fight here in Scotland, and why we should concentrate on our own campaign, and not get dragged into the complications of other peoples' struggles.

alexis · The CC are not like Scotland, & Spain and France are not

This is not completely true, I'm sorry! Of course, initially the Iberian Peninsula were settled down by the people living in the north. Excuse me by the simplification. So historically there are some places in the Iberian Peninsula coming from this pseudo-original setting. Thus we find Catalans, Castilians, Portuguese,... A Solution like in the United Kingdom could be easier to solve. England has an strong personality in opposition to the assimilation of Castilla by Spain. There are not Castilian feeling anymore. so I'm glad for you, Scottish people, you have a nicer way to walk. However in the Catalan Countries this is not so easy. Your explanation is, somehow, simple due to you don't take into account the efforts of Spain (Our United Kingdom at French style) to divide us. In November 1659 they divided into States (Spain and France), as they did also in the Basc Country. They won militarily firstly in Valencia (1707) and following other Catalan areas. They won finally in 1714 all the Catalan Countries part of the actual Spain. In the 20th century, the civil war affect also Spain dividing between fascists and republicans (all the Catalan Countries again together against the same)
Now, the Catalan setting is very different, because too much wars, too much losses, too many people afraid.
About the name of our Country? Maybe is not as nice as Catalonia or Scotland.. but this name is not the product of some regional parliament.. this is a name created by people from outside of the actual region of Catalonia to give the idea of federation of different ways to understand the same nation.
If you check the map, you can see people join for the independence from every where in the CC. www.estatpropi.cat

Dave Coull

Alexis wrote "In the 20th century, the civil war affect also Spain dividing between fascists and republicans" - it is more than forty years since I first read George Orwell's "Homage To Catalonia", which had a profound effect on me. So for a very long time I have been aware of Catalonia as a place which is not just part of Spain.

Alexis also wrote "I'm glad for you, Scottish people, you have a nicer way to walk. However in the Catalan Countries this is not so easy." - that is exactly my point. While we in Scotland should be friends with the Catalan people, we should not be distracted from the fact that it is we who are in the vangaurd of the re-emerging nations of Western Europe. The best way we can help others is by example.

Alexis also wrote "initially the Iberian Peninsula were settled down by the people living in the north" - okay, I realise English is not your first language Alexis, but, if I understand what you are saying correctly, it's just plain wrong. It seems fairly certain that we are all descended from people who came "out of Africa". As the Ice Age retreated, some folk arrived in Europe from Africa by way of the Middle East and crossed the Bosphorus from Asiatic Turkey, but others almost certainly crossed the narrow straits of Gibralter. So I would say there is reason to believe people initially arrived in the Iberian Peninsula from the South. Carthage, a North African state, established colonies in the Iberian peninsula, as well as establishing Marseilles, in the South of France. And of course Muslims from North Africa established Moorish kingdoms in the Iberian peninsula which lasted for around five hundred years. I love the great city of Barcelona, but even here in the North of the Iberian Peninsula the influence of Africa is felt - Barcelona's most famous street is the Ramblas - Arabic for "the torrent", because a stream originally ran through it.

alexis

Thank you to understand my linguistic limitations in English. Certainly is not my language Embarassed

In my last comment, I didn't pretend to explain the Muslim influences or something like that. The explanations were to justify why in some areas in the Iberian Peninsula now you can find a language or another. And of course, Catalan language is very influenced by Arabic language (Rambles, Alginet, Benimaclet), but also by Spanish, French and English..

The Catalan Countries or Catalonia? Many people consider the historical name as a problem, 'cause it doesn't consider all the places where the people speaks Catalan as part of. So the Catalan Countries is a name created by people from outside of the actual region of Catalonia. To be precise, it was created by Bienvenido Oliver i Esteller from Valencia and relatively consolidated with Joan Fuster also from Valencia area. I come from Valencia, so I feel more comfortable with The Catalan Countries name. There are no institutions considering The Catalan Countries as a right name, it's just popular but very popular.

I didn't pretend to be polemic, so I'm sorry. I only wanted to take you a minute to inform you about a young Campaign to add in a map all the persons which want to create an Own State for the Catalan People. I think is very interesting 'cause we have created a map where we appear without influences of Spain and France and it is build by almost 12,000 people

I agree, the best way to help is to create example. Continue advancing towards the independence, we are going too!! Very Happy

Rinty

Not an expert on the history of the area or it's borders (although I do dabble) but I know that Perpignan in France has a rugby team called catalan dragons that fly catalonian colours and that majorca is always seen as part of catalunya (perpignan being the capital of the former kingdom of majorca).

Dave Coull

Rinty wrote "I know that Perpignan in France has a rugby team called catalan dragons" - I can't find the reference right now, but I remember reading a book on Catalan history which mentioned in early modern times a contemporary complaining of French influence - "one in ten in Barcelona speak French, while in the second city of Catalonia, Perpignan, it is four out of ten".

The problem is, language and country are not necessarily the same thing. We in Scotland should know that better than most. The Pyrenees make a very good "natural" boundary, and the Catalan speaking area of southern France is on the "wrong" side of the Pyrenees. There are problems with defining the boundaries of Catalonia in the North, in the South, in the West, and in the East. We are very fortunate in Scotland that we have no such problems. We should stay focussed on our own goal of independence for Scotland, and not get distracted by campaigns in other lands which, inevitably, are bound to be far more complex.

Rinty

As you enter Perpignan, the town sign declares it as the capital of Mallorca and the fact that the major rugby team in the area describe themselves as Catalan Dragons suggests that people in that area see themslves as catalans.

The rugby team were called just Perpignan until recently and made the decision to change the name for the european league, so it's not some ancient catalan sports club holding on to a past history.

At the border at the east coast there is no need to cross the pyrenees to get to perpignan so there is no natural barrier in place. In fact, you would barely notice that you had crossed the border.

Dave Coull

Rinty wrote "At the border at the east coast there is no need to cross the pyrenees to get to perpignan so there is no natural barrier in place. In fact, you would barely notice that you had crossed the border." - Okay, I've never crossed there, you clearly have. But the fact nevertheless remains, any suggestion of a unified Catalonia, or union of Catalan countries, means taking on the French state as well as Spain, which makes for a considerable complication. Add to that the further complications in the West (Andorra etc), the South (Valencia etc) and the East (Majorca, Minorca, the Ballearic Islands) and the process of Catalan independence could be far more complicated than in the case of Scotland. Now, by all means, let us wish our Catalan friends good luck. But it would be a big mistake to get involved in any kind of alliance of stateless nations, or anything like that, because not only Catalonia but ALL of the others, apart from Scotland, involve considerable complications. For this reason, it is best for us to remain totally focussed on independence for Scotland. The only thing we can offer is an example.

alexis

I like to see people very proud of their country and nation.. however comparatives are not always necessary. Shocked

I wrote you because maybe some of you are intereste to know what's going on in other European areas. And I used Global Politics of this nice Forum to talk about a very specific topic.

Replying to Rinty... It's true than in the Perpignan Area (also known as Northern Catalonia or Departament des Pyrenees Orientals) people speaks French and the amount of Catalan speakers is very low in comparatives with the rest of the Catalan areas. However, as Dave Coull told, languages are not always related to the national fillings. In Northern Catalonia, the people feels mostly Catalan but they don't speak this language too much. I should say that the trend is changing because many people in Northern Catalonia see Barcelona as a good place to live, and Catalan language help to find work...

Dave Coull

Alexis wrote "comparatives are not always necessary" - personally, I feel that comparisons can help us to make sense of the world. In comparing Scotland with Catalonia, I do not say that we are "better" (my own feelings are much like George Orwell's in "Homage To Catalonia") I simply say that, while there are some similarities, there are also differences between our circumstances.

Alexis also said "I wrote you because maybe some of you are intereste to know what's going on in other European areas. And I used Global Politics of this nice Forum to talk about a very specific topic." - yes, some of us are very interested to know what is going on in other European areas, yes, you were quite right to use the "Global Politics" section of "Our Scotland", and yes, some of us are willing to talk about this topic!

alexis · To counteract the cowardice of the Catalan leaders,...

To counteract the cowardice of the Catalan leaders, the death and a letter of a catalan fighter

Yesterday, Xirinachs was found in a forest in the Pyrenees. Xirinachs gave his life to counteract the cowardice of the Catalan leaders. He was a priest and also a senator but he was very popular as an anti-Franco fighter, during the transition, and an active independentist of the Catalan Countries.

After to be found in Ogassa (Girona), the next letter was discovered in his office.

"I have lived seventy-five years as a slave
in settled down Catalan Countries
by Spain, France (and for Italy)
since centuries ago.

I have lived fighting against this slavery
all the years of my adult life.
A slave nation, like an individual slave,
is a shame of the humanity and of the universe.

But a nation will never be free
if their sons do not want to risk their life
in its liberation and defense.

You, my friends, accept to me that victorious end
of my fight,
to counteract the cowardice,
of our leaders, people-overcrowders.

Today my nation becomes absolute sovereign in me.
They have lost a slave.
My nation is a little freer,
because I am in you, my friends!

Lluís M. Xirinacs i Damians

Barcelona, August 6th, 2007"

New Tool for the Independence of the Catalan Countries

The CC are not like Scotland, & Spain and France are not

To counteract the cowardice of the Catalan leaders,...