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Pip

A couple of questions top help an anti-union cause

I have a question for Gaelic and Scots speakers, anyone with knowledge of Scottish surnames and anyone else who can offer advice.

I'm writing a work of fiction with an anti-unionist slant. I was hoping for some suggestions for the names of two Scottish characters . Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I need a Gaelic given name for a woman that's fairly common among people who aren't primarily Gaelic speaking.

I also have a need to name a Scottish Unionist politician. Does anyone have any suggestions for a surname that might suggest traits of greed, dishonesty, hyperbole, treachery, self-loathing etc?

I promise my intentions are entirely anti-unionist and that I entirely support Scottish Independence. Thanks for any help.
Babygael

So, let me see, yer want a female Gaelic name that is NOT Gaelic AND a name for an Anglo-scot unionist???

Weel fer the latter ah wuid say... BLAIR??

And Maggie (Scots) Thatcher???
SLG

Re: A couple of questions top help an anti-union cause

Pip wrote:
I need a Gaelic given name for a woman that's fairly common among people who aren't primarily Gaelic speaking.

How about Morag, Kirsty, Sheila or Eilidh?

Pip wrote:
I also have a need to name a Scottish Unionist politician. Does anyone have any suggestions for a surname that might suggest traits of greed, dishonesty, hyperbole, treachery, self-loathing etc?

How about Quisling? More seriously, how about Dalrymple or Ogilvie?
Maol.Chaluim

Re: A couple of questions top help an anti-union cause

Pip wrote:
I need a Gaelic given name for a woman that's fairly common among people who aren't primarily Gaelic speaking.

I like Catriona (or Catrìona) - it's the title of a book by RL Stevenson.
Maol.Chaluim

Re: A couple of questions top help an anti-union cause

SLG wrote:
Pip wrote:
I also have a need to name a Scottish Unionist politician. Does anyone have any suggestions for a surname that might suggest traits of greed, dishonesty, hyperbole, treachery, self-loathing etc?

How about Quisling? More seriously, how about Dalrymple or Ogilvie?


Grrr...
garye

Re: A couple of questions top help an anti-union cause

Pip wrote:


I need a Gaelic given name for a woman that's fairly common among people who aren't primarily Gaelic speaking.



You could use Mhairi but that'd be taking the piss a bit out of people who think they're giving their kids a Gaelic name when they're not...
wisnaeme

Re: A couple of questions top help an anti-union cause

Pip wrote:

I also have a need to name a Scottish Unionist politician. Does anyone have any suggestions for a surname that might suggest traits of greed, dishonesty, hyperbole, treachery, self-loathing etc?

How about a more relevant and up to date one,allegedly. A minor pawn, granted but still a bit actor with a part to play in a nearly 300 year unbroken and still in production, drama called," Lets pretend we have a democracy".
May I present to you the right honourable Michael McMahon MSP and ................................................................... wait for it..........................Convenor of the Public Petitions Committee by the way.
Babygael

GRRR! is good Maol Chaluim!! How about Gordon for the trecherous self loathing guy??
Highlander

Quote:
You could use Mhairi but that'd be taking the piss a bit out of people who think they're giving their kids a Gaelic name when they're not


Are you saying Mhairi is not a Gaelic name?
garye

Highlander wrote:
Quote:
You could use Mhairi but that'd be taking the piss a bit out of people who think they're giving their kids a Gaelic name when they're not


Are you saying Mhairi is not a Gaelic name?


When it comes down to it folk can call their weans what they want but there seems to be lots of folk who call their female children "Mhairi" (pronounced Vari) thinking it's a "Gaelic name". Some also call there kids "Mhairi" but pronounce it Mari.

The history of it is that the Gaelic form of Mary is Mairi, but if you're talking directly to a "Mairi" then you would address her as "a' Mhairi" (pronounced uh, Vari) as in "Ciamar a tha sibh a' Mhairi?" (How are you Mary).

Somewhere along the line folk have picked up on "a' Mhairi" and thought that Mhairi was the actual name as opposed to a grammatical form of Mairi.

A bit like some one with no English, hearing someone talk about "Mary's book", think that Marys sounds like a nice name so they call their kid Marys.

The derivation of Hamish as a name is broadly the same.
Maol.Chaluim

Mhairi is the vocative case of Mairi.
Maol.Chaluim

garye wrote:

A bit like some one with no English, hearing someone talk about "Mary's book", think that Marys sounds like a nice name so they call their kid Marys.


Nice illustration, garye. I've come across examples of almost exactly that, believe it or not.
garye

Maol.Chaluim wrote:
garye wrote:

A bit like some one with no English, hearing someone talk about "Mary's book", think that Marys sounds like a nice name so they call their kid Marys.


Nice illustration, garye. I've come across examples of almost exactly that, believe it or not.


Go on tell us more Laughing
Maol.Chaluim

I've met non-English speakers who think "McDonnald's" is a surname...
Pip

That's great. Thanks for your help everyone. Very Happy
Highlander

Doesn't make it any less of a Gaelic name.
SLG

Highlander wrote:
Doesn't make it any less of a Gaelic name.

Yes it does. Mairi is the gaelic name, Mhairi is a grammatical mutation under certain circumstances. As Garye explained.

It would be like saying "David's" was a an English name. No it's not. "David" is the name, "David's" is a variation of that name under certain conditions.
Babygael

Exactly so SLG! The engerlish tongue has distorted many names,like place names for example...Inbhir Nis pronounced Inverneesh bastardized to Inverness, Obar Dheadain/ ober yain,bastardized to Aberdeen, steornabhagh/Stroanabough....Stornoway and so on.

Anyway Highlander does not understand Gaelic Grammar,so how could he know that names (for one) are spelt differently accordingly to how they are used /male/female and all that. I am terrible at it myself I don't mind telling you!!
agentmancuso

Babygael wrote:
Exactly so SLG! The engerlish tongue has distorted many names,like place names for example...Inbhir Nis pronounced Inverneesh bastardized to Inverness, Obar Dheadain/ ober yain,bastardized to Aberdeen, steornabhagh/Stroanabough....Stornoway and so on.

Anyway Highlander does not understand Gaelic Grammar,so how could he know that names (for one) are spelt differently accordingly to how they are used /male/female and all that. I am terrible at it myself I don't mind telling you!!


Stornoway is Norse in origin. Not that it actually matters greatly. Mutation of place names (and other words) through time is an entirely natural phenomenon, common to all languages. 'Bastardization' is both inaccurate and wrong. Given that the vast majority of people in Aberdeen speak English, wouldn't it be a bit odd if they referred to the city by its Gaelic name?
Maol.Chaluim

In many cases of Gaelic names, the mutations that have occured haven't come about naturally:

Quote:
The anglicisation process appears in the documentary record as early as the Pont maps (16th century) and with Blaeu (1633), much of Scotland is still, unfortunately, controlled by a small elite of landowners running large estates. It was here on many of these estates that implemented policies of the anglicisation of place-names. In the 1850s the British government published its Ordnance Survey of maps and these also acted to anglicise Gaelic place-names. When I say 'anglicise' this process happened in two ways: 1) the translation of the Gaelic form into English (Gaelic Drochaid Neithich to English Nethybridge) English then becoming the official form; or 2) the rendering of the Gaelic form into a soundalike word in English (e.g. Kyle of Lochalsh derived from Gaelic Caol Loch Aillse). This process has continued today with little modification and has played its part in de-legitimizing the language It has meant that we have had the creation of 'gibberish' place-names which mean nothing in either English or Gaelic but have become the official form today.


From http://www.linguapax.org/congres/taller/taller2/Hicks.html.

I remember once at school, the teacher looked up the origins and meanings of some of the names of the pupils in the class. He then looked up his own surname. According to the book he was using, "Campbell" came from the English "Camp" and "Bell", it then went on to suggest some military origin or other. He and most of the class believed it.

Genuine mistake on the part of the researchers who wrote the book or linguistic and cultural oppression? I know which I'd go for...
Babygael

It would be great if all these signs returned to their origional and correct names ASAP. I dont give a "D" what the "vast Majority" speak!!! Scotland is not England!!??? DUH! See any Gaelic signs in England ?????

If I was living in Scotland now, I would probably walk with a can of paint and a brush!!

English is NOT a Scottish language and while I agree with a multi-lingual society, I believe English should be used when nescessary only. While the official language of Scotland certainly cannot be english!! Shocked Even if both are and would be used.
agentmancuso

Maol.Chaluim wrote:
In many cases of Gaelic names, the mutations that have occured haven't come about naturally:

Quote:
The anglicisation process appears in the documentary record as early as the Pont maps (16th century) and with Blaeu (1633), much of Scotland is still, unfortunately, controlled by a small elite of landowners running large estates. It was here on many of these estates that implemented policies of the anglicisation of place-names. In the 1850s the British government published its Ordnance Survey of maps and these also acted to anglicise Gaelic place-names. When I say 'anglicise' this process happened in two ways: 1) the translation of the Gaelic form into English (Gaelic Drochaid Neithich to English Nethybridge) English then becoming the official form; or 2) the rendering of the Gaelic form into a soundalike word in English (e.g. Kyle of Lochalsh derived from Gaelic Caol Loch Aillse). This process has continued today with little modification and has played its part in de-legitimizing the language It has meant that we have had the creation of 'gibberish' place-names which mean nothing in either English or Gaelic but have become the official form today.


From http://www.linguapax.org/congres/taller/taller2/Hicks.html.


I know how it came about. But in what way is this unnatural? One language, associated with power and wealth, replaces another language, associated with poverty and ignorance. That's how languages spread and mutate all over the world.

Maol.Chaluim wrote:

I remember once at school, the teacher looked up the origins and meanings of some of the names of the pupils in the class. He then looked up his own surname. According to the book he was using, "Campbell" came from the English "Camp" and "Bell", it then went on to suggest some military origin or other. He and most of the class believed it.

Genuine mistake on the part of the researchers who wrote the book or linguistic and cultural oppression? I know which I'd go for...


So you think the author of the book knew the Gaelic origin of Campbell, but deliberately made up some thing else just for the sake of oppressing people? Or was he just making it up as he went along, thinking that people who cared about these things were a bit pathetic anyway, so what the hell, give 'em any old rubbish?
agentmancuso

Babygael wrote:
It would be great if all these signs returned to their origional and correct names ASAP. I dont give a "D" what the "vast Majority" speak!!! Scotland is not England!!??? DUH! See any Gaelic signs in England ?????

If I was living in Scotland now, I would probably walk with a can of paint and a brush!!

English is NOT a Scottish language and while I agree with a multi-lingual society, I believe English should be used when nescessary only. While the official language of Scotland certainly cannot be english!! Shocked Even if both are and would be used.


I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried. Absolutely priceless.
SLG

agentmancuso wrote:
I know how it came about. But in what way is this unnatural? One language, associated with power and wealth, replaces another language, associated with poverty and ignorance. That's how languages spread and mutate all over the world.

So I take it you, equally, don't have a problem in the modern age when people want to revert back to the original names? After all, this is natural, one language associated with national identity in an increasingly mono-cultural world replaces another language that is associated with imperialism both militarily in the past and economically in the present. That's how languages are spreading and being revived all over the world.
agentmancuso

SLG wrote:
agentmancuso wrote:
I know how it came about. But in what way is this unnatural? One language, associated with power and wealth, replaces another language, associated with poverty and ignorance. That's how languages spread and mutate all over the world.

So I take it you, equally, don't have a problem in the modern age when people want to revert back to the original names? After all, this is natural, one language associated with national identity in an increasingly mono-cultural world replaces another language that is associated with imperialism both militarily in the past and economically in the present. That's how languages are spreading and being revived all over the world.


I don't have a problem with that at all; I think it's to be celebrated. I also think it would be a very serious cultural loss if Gaelic were to die out. On the other hand, it would be a serious cultural gain if Babygael's embarrassing xenophobia were to die out. What do you make of her comments -

I dont give a "D" what the "vast Majority" speak!!!
English is NOT a Scottish language
the official language of Scotland certainly cannot be english!!

Doesn't this make you cringe? Because it should.
SLG

agentmancuso wrote:
I don't have a problem with that at all; I think it's to be celebrated. I also think it would be a very serious cultural loss if Gaelic were to die out.

I'm glad to hear that.

agentmancuso wrote:
On the other hand, it would be a serious cultural gain if Babygael's embarrassing xenophobia were to die out. What do you make of her comments -

I dont give a "D" what the "vast Majority" speak!!!
English is NOT a Scottish language
the official language of Scotland certainly cannot be english!!

Doesn't this make you cringe? Because it should.

Yes it does and there's no need for it. I can understand it to an extent though. Gaelic has been actively marginalised for so long and to an extent still is. It's easy to be very defensive under such circumstances. However, despite what has happened in the past and is still happening, English is now a Scottish language now and should be respected as such. In a more enlightened society Gaelic and English do not need to be perceived as being in conflict with each other.
agentmancuso

I appreciate your candour. Although I am an active member of the LibDems, I consider myself much closer to the SNP than to Labour, and I know for a fact that the SNP is not just the bunch of redneck hill-billies that the Labour tabloids make it out to be. But there is an unhealthy minority within the SNP that indulge themselves in attitudes like that displayed by Babygael. It's just playing into Labour's hands to make racist comments of the sort she does above. It would be electoral suicide if this kind of thing became widely known: you could wave goodbye to Aberdeen North for a start.
Babygael

My My Agentmancuso calm down before you do yourself damage! Racist comments???? And there was I thinking that you were making racist comments!!
Babygael

Oh an lest I forget, let me tell you something agentmancuso, I am my ain people.

I don't care whats politically correct! I don't care for your feelings!! We all have to deal with them!! A spine might help!!

I only care for my Albannach,if you have a problem with that, weel FY!!
Babygael

How could ENGLISH be a SCOTTISH language?? Are you RETARDED?? Agentmancuso?? Hummmnnnmn??
SLG

I'm sorry BG, but English has become an established language in Scotland, so yes you can now call it a Scottish language. It's my native tongue and the native language of most folk I know. The form of English spoken here is heavily influenced by Scots amongst other things that has makes it unique in some ways to Scotland. Most of the great works of literature from Scotland are written in English. The Scottish music I listen to is mostly sung in English. The Scottish films I watch are mainly spoken in English. The Scottish national anthem is written and sung in English.

Like I said, there are many aspects of how English got to that stage in the first place to disapprove of, but it happened. And now English is a big part of what makes Scotland what it is today. You can't just take that away from people.

Many in the Unionist Protestant community would say that Gaelic is an Irish language and has no place in Scotland. And it probably once was an Irish language. But we made it our own. The same with English.
Cymro

I know this isn't really linked, but in Welsh place names are mutated

For example, the Village of Coedpoeth (meaning Hot Wood - they used to make Charcoal here many years ago) near Wrexham. If someone asks you where you live, if you live in Coedpoeth and spoke Welsh you'd say

(yng) Nghoedpoeth" (in Coedpoeth)

Pontypridd would become (ym) Mhontypridd when saying "In Pontypridd"

Dinbych where I live mutates to (yn) Ninbych

But translating peoples names is a big no no.

Also Mari is the Welsh version of Mary and Mairi.
agentmancuso

Babygael wrote:
My My Agentmancuso calm down before you do yourself damage! Racist comments???? And there was I thinking that you were making racist comments!!


Really? Such as?
agentmancuso

Babygael wrote:
How could ENGLISH be a SCOTTISH language?? Are you RETARDED?? Agentmancuso?? Hummmnnnmn??


Are you drunk by any chance?

Normally, in English, which you may speak perfectly, but write only tolerably well, only one question mark is placed at the end of each sentence.
agentmancuso

SLG wrote:
I'm sorry BG, but English has become an established language in Scotland, so yes you can now call it a Scottish language. It's my native tongue and the native language of most folk I know. The form of English spoken here is heavily influenced by Scots amongst other things that has makes it unique in some ways to Scotland. Most of the great works of literature from Scotland are written in English. The Scottish music I listen to is mostly sung in English. The Scottish films I watch are mainly spoken in English. The Scottish national anthem is written and sung in English.

Like I said, there are many aspects of how English got to that stage in the first place to disapprove of, but it happened. And now English is a big part of what makes Scotland what it is today. You can't just take that away from people.

Many in the Unionist Protestant community would say that Gaelic is an Irish language and has no place in Scotland. And it probably once was an Irish language. But we made it our own. The same with English.


Exactly. Not only is English established in Scotland, it's also spoken by 99.9% of Scottish people. Which seems to constitute a prima facie case for considering it a Scottish language.
agentmancuso

Cymro wrote:
I know this isn't really linked, but in Welsh place names are mutated

For example, the Village of Coedpoeth (meaning Hot Wood - they used to make Charcoal here many years ago) near Wrexham. If someone asks you where you live, if you live in Coedpoeth and spoke Welsh you'd say

(yng) Nghoedpoeth" (in Coedpoeth)

Pontypridd would become (ym) Mhontypridd when saying "In Pontypridd"

Dinbych where I live mutates to (yn) Ninbych

But translating peoples names is a big no no.

Also Mari is the Welsh version of Mary and Mairi.


Interesting. Is this process referred to as 'mutation' in Welsh? I believe it's mostly called aspiration in Gaelic.
Highlander

Quote:
Anyway Highlander does not understand Gaelic Grammar,so how could he know that names (for one) are spelt differently accordingly to how they are used /male/female and all that. I am terrible at it myself I don't mind telling you!!


And you, it would seem, do not understand English grammer.

Quote:
It would be great if all these signs returned to their origional and correct names ASAP. I dont give a "D" what the "vast Majority" speak!!! Scotland is not England!!??? DUH! See any Gaelic signs in England ?????

If I was living in Scotland now, I would probably walk with a can of paint and a brush!!

English is NOT a Scottish language and while I agree with a multi-lingual society, I believe English should be used when nescessary only. While the official language of Scotland certainly cannot be english!! Even if both are and would be used.


Don't be ridiculous. English has been spoken in areas of Scotland as long as it has been spoken in areas of England. The same Anlges and Saxons inahbited central and southern Scotland that inhabited England and they brought with them their language and culture, old English, which evolved into modern Englsh that we speak today.
agentmancuso

Highlander wrote:

Quote:
It would be great if all these signs returned to their origional and correct names ASAP. I dont give a "D" what the "vast Majority" speak!!! Scotland is not England!!??? DUH! See any Gaelic signs in England ?????

If I was living in Scotland now, I would probably walk with a can of paint and a brush!!

English is NOT a Scottish language and while I agree with a multi-lingual society, I believe English should be used when nescessary only. While the official language of Scotland certainly cannot be english!! Even if both are and would be used.


Don't be ridiculous. English has been spoken in areas of Scotland as long as it has been spoken in areas of England. The same Anlges and Saxons inahbited central and southern Scotland that inhabited England and they brought with them their language and culture, old English, which evolved into modern Englsh that we speak today.


Babygael is being ridiculous here, but your comments are not much better. Which dark age tribe lived where is utterly irrelevant. What matters is the people who live here now, and the English that they all speak in their real lives today.
Cymro

agentmancuso wrote:
Cymro wrote:
I know this isn't really linked, but in Welsh place names are mutated

For example, the Village of Coedpoeth (meaning Hot Wood - they used to make Charcoal here many years ago) near Wrexham. If someone asks you where you live, if you live in Coedpoeth and spoke Welsh you'd say

(yng) Nghoedpoeth" (in Coedpoeth)

Pontypridd would become (ym) Mhontypridd when saying "In Pontypridd"

Dinbych where I live mutates to (yn) Ninbych

But translating peoples names is a big no no.

Also Mari is the Welsh version of Mary and Mairi.


Interesting. Is this process referred to as 'mutation' in Welsh? I believe it's mostly called aspiration in Gaelic.


Yes, it's what we call 'mutation'.

Is it really called 'aspiration' for Gaelic? Or in my beer have I missed something?
SLG

Cymro wrote:
Quote:


Interesting. Is this process referred to as 'mutation' in Welsh? I believe it's mostly called aspiration in Gaelic.


Yes, it's what we call 'mutation'.

Is it really called 'aspiration' for Gaelic? Or in my beer have I missed something?

I'm not too hot on my grammar, but the Mairi -> Mhairi example I gave is called lenition. I think aspiration is something different.
agentmancuso

SLG wrote:
Cymro wrote:
Quote:


Interesting. Is this process referred to as 'mutation' in Welsh? I believe it's mostly called aspiration in Gaelic.


Yes, it's what we call 'mutation'.

Is it really called 'aspiration' for Gaelic? Or in my beer have I missed something?

I'm not too hot on my grammar, but the Mairi -> Mhairi example I gave is called lenition. I think aspiration is something different.


You're right. More on lenition here.
Babygael

you guys seem to making very freely with my "name"!

English was introduced into Scotland a very long time ago and in my poor oppinion it is not the historical language of the Gaelic peoples. English and Gaelic became the norm ....Untill Culloden and then the destruction of the Gaelic language/culture began in earnest.School children were beaten for speaking it in school etc,etc, so when I tell you I dont have any sympathy for English only speakers who persist with this,you better believe it! What goes around comes around!

Even up untill today that attitude persists.IF that is not racisim I dont know what is!! Anyone who continues this destruction today needs a good erse kicking!

The signs that were origionally in Gaelic should remain so,If an English only speaking Scot cannot pronounce thier own signage properly,well ok,but that is no reason to put these meaningless phoenitic words up as the correct signage,Put it if you must but in a way as to show which is the corect name.

It was not so long ago when the folks who spoke Gaelic as thier first language had to put up with all that discrimination and so much more! sorry but no apologies to anyone who still discriminates.

And as for my voting history agentmancuso, I vote for labour, the Barbados Labour party that is.And come next elections so far I see no reason not to vote BLP again!

Oh and while I am at it,for those who didn't know, my step-Parents and familly are as english as tea and crumpits!! THEY dont think I am Racists!
Highlander

Quote:
English was introduced into Scotland a very long time ago and in my poor oppinion it is not the historical language of the Gaelic peoples. English and Gaelic became the norm ....Untill Culloden and then the destruction of the Gaelic language/culture began in earnest.School children were beaten for speaking it in school etc,etc, so when I tell you I dont have any sympathy for English only speakers who persist with this,you better believe it! What goes around comes around!


Old English the precursor to modern English arrived in Scotland in the 5th century A.D. Long before the idea of a "Scotland". English is very much a language of Scotland just as Norse, Cumbric, Lallans and Pictish were but yet I don't see you going round telling people that they are not Scots unless they know Old, Middle and Modern English, Norse, Cumbric, Lallans, Pictish and your much loved Gaelic. Gaelic started it's decline in Scotland in the 13th century a full 5 centuries before culloden.

And who are these Gaelic people you go on about? Scotland has a civic culture not an ethnic culture so dont tell me that "gaelic people"=Scots.
Babygael

http://www.millahuilerud.com/what.html Thanks for that one SLG!


http://www.saorsamedia.com/shop/handbook.html


http://www.ambaile.org.uk/en/section.jsp?currentId=3

Awa an bile yer heed lad!
SLG

Highlander wrote:
Old English the precursor to modern English arrived in Scotland in the 5th century A.D. Long before the idea of a "Scotland". English is very much a language of Scotland just as Norse, Cumbric, Lallans and Pictish were but yet I don't see you going round telling people that they are not Scots unless they know Old, Middle and Modern English, Norse, Cumbric, Lallans, Pictish and your much loved Gaelic.

Well it's all about perspective isn't it. I would say that the idea of Scotland arose out of the Gaelic kingdom of Dál Riata, so going back to about the 4th or 5th century. I would say that the Anglo-Saxon language the was brought into the SE of Scotland and expanded into much of the rest of the South and East of Scotland became a language called Scots while the Anglo-Saxon spoken in England with it's different influences became English. The English that we speak now is not a descendant of the Anglo-Saxon (or Old-English if you like) that came to Scotland in the 5th (or possibly a century or two later), it was a language that was imported from England at a much later date.

Highlander wrote:
Gaelic started it's decline in Scotland in the 13th century a full 5 centuries before culloden.

Yes, but the Gaelic was still very strong in the Highlands. You can't deny that the aftermath of Culloden was probaly the most significant factor in its decline.

Highlander wrote:
And who are these Gaelic people you go on about? Scotland has a civic culture not an ethnic culture so dont tell me that "gaelic people"=Scots.

Gaelic people are people who speak Gaelic.
Maol.Chaluim

Highlander wrote:
Gaelic started it's decline in Scotland in the 13th century a full 5 centuries before culloden.

.. and at it's height, it was spoken my the vast majorty. In the five centuries up to the begining of the c.18th the number of speakers fell to about 50% of the country (approx - I'm not sure about this), and in the three centuries up to the present day, it's fallen to less than 2%.
elidir

Old english in the fifth century? Arrived from elsewhere? English as a language developed in what is now called england amongst Germanic tribes which were yet to become english under the unifying cultural and political influence of the French. It is strange how the english language is given this provenance when its speakers were not yet english. The precursors of modern english is not old english but anglo-saxon and Norman French all forms of "english" date from the mediaeval period before this anglo saxons spoke germanic dialects or a derivative Germanic language (correctly reffered to as anglo-saxon) which became one of the precursors to the development of english. All forms of "english" date from Chaucer with his french influence - because that is when english becomes a distinct language apart from a form of germanic!

The error can be illusratrated by considering the pre-Roman Celtic as Old Welsh because Celtic was the precursor of modern Welsh. However, applying the same logic demonstrates that Welsh emerges from the admixture of celtic with a latin linguistic influence, and therefore, Old Welsh is correctly dated as between the 5th to 8th centuries (approx), as english should be dated from the Norman occupation of angleland.

It appears that the english lang. is being given a history longer than the existence of the idea of english people. You can't have an english language old or not until english people have emerged- the two go together regardless of how ancient you 'd like something to be to try and claim cultural primacy. Old english is not a form of english it is a form of germanic or Anglo-saxon and should not be seen as proto-english because its refferent is yet to emerge as a cultural and linguistic phenomenon!
Babygael

Madainn mhath!Tha e gle` Mhath a` Elidir choir.

So what you are saying is that the English language as we know it today developed out of either Germanic or Anglo-Saxon or both? Therefore you could say then ,that it has its roots in England? And by that it is an "English" language right?

In Wales do you consider English to be your National Language? Because as you say, Celtic was the precursor of modern Welsh, which I assume has its roots in Wales?

Now Scottish Gaelic for example is different from its parent,Irish Gaelic,though not by a large margin,which in turn is a Celtic language. I am guessing that Scots Gaelic was influenced by the Picts/Norse/other, for example,and developed into its own unique form of Gaelic with its roots in Scotland.

I realise that not every scot spoke Gaelic throughout history.The Picts held sway for a long time but that language has died out,except perhaps living on through its influence in Scots Gaelic (?) And then there were the introduced languages, i.e English for example.

Whatever anyone one says to the contrary unless they can convince me otherwise, I in no way understand English to be a language rooted in Scotland, but an introduced foriegn language. which although I do believe has served Scotland well and will continue to do so. I don't think it should be portrayed as being Scottish but for what it is.

So to remove/distort and to give precedence to place names( for example) origionally written in the language rooted in scotland.To a foreign language rooted in another country, England in this instance.Is to my mind the actions of a people who have long given up on themselves and their ancient heritage to become colonial Anglophile Dependents.Which of course is exactly what the auld Enemy set out to do in the first place! I think England is a great place and I think scotland is a great place but each has its own heritage and traditions and history one from the other.
agentmancuso

elidir wrote:
Old english in the fifth century? Arrived from elsewhere? English as a language developed in what is now called england amongst Germanic tribes which were yet to become english under the unifying cultural and political influence of the French. It is strange how the english language is given this provenance when its speakers were not yet english. The precursors of modern english is not old english but anglo-saxon and Norman French all forms of "english" date from the mediaeval period before this anglo saxons spoke germanic dialects or a derivative Germanic language (correctly reffered to as anglo-saxon) which became one of the precursors to the development of english. All forms of "english" date from Chaucer with his french influence - because that is when english becomes a distinct language apart from a form of germanic!


The various dialects spoken by the Angles were already referred to collectively as 'Englisc' before this language left the European mainland.

Old English was quite distinct from continental Germanic dialects long before Chaucer: Scandinavian influences shaped it considerably, particularly the northern dialects, one of which was the ancestor of Scots. It would still be quite acceptable to label Old English as 'Germanic' at this point, as Scandinavian languages are themselves Germanic.

The import of Norman French changed things considerably: Middle English is born out of the mix, which is usually dated as achieving dominance by about 1150ce. Early Modern English dates from some time before 1500, and is probably marked-off linguistically by the absorption of new vocabulary following the rediscovery of classical languages at the Renaissance.

elidir wrote:

The error can be illusratrated by considering the pre-Roman Celtic as Old Welsh because Celtic was the precursor of modern Welsh. However, applying the same logic demonstrates that Welsh emerges from the admixture of celtic with a latin linguistic influence, and therefore, Old Welsh is correctly dated as between the 5th to 8th centuries (approx), as english should be dated from the Norman occupation of angleland.


This does nothing to illustrate any error; it merely posits a false analogy. Why should the periodic development of one language mirror that of another in any way?

elidir wrote:

It appears that the english lang. is being given a history longer than the existence of the idea of english people. You can't have an english language old or not until english people have emerged- the two go together regardless of how ancient you 'd like something to be to try and claim cultural primacy.


Who says you can't have an English language until you have an English people? In this context 'English people' by definition are people who speak English, no more, no less. Anyway, Bede wrote his Historia Ecclesiastica Gentis Anglorum about 700ce, six and a half centuries before Chaucer. As far as I am aware, there is no record of anyone having the slightest difficulty grasping which people he was talking about.

What has periodic linguistic labeling got to do with 'cultural primacy'?

elidir wrote:

Old english is not a form of english it is a form of germanic or Anglo-saxon and should not be seen as proto-english because its refferent is yet to emerge as a cultural and linguistic phenomenon!


You'll forgive me for pointing out the bleeding obvious, but that is almost a dictionary definition of the prefix 'proto-'.
agentmancuso

Babygael wrote:
Madainn mhath!Tha e gle` Mhath a` Elidir choir.

So what you are saying is that the English language as we know it today developed out of either Germanic or Anglo-Saxon or both? Therefore you could say then ,that it has its roots in England? And by that it is an "English" language right?

In Wales do you consider English to be your National Language? Because as you say, Celtic was the precursor of modern Welsh, which I assume has its roots in Wales?

Now Scottish Gaelic for example is different from its parent,Irish Gaelic,though not by a large margin,which in turn is a Celtic language. I am guessing that Scots Gaelic was influenced by the Picts/Norse/other, for example,and developed into its own unique form of Gaelic with its roots in Scotland.

I realise that not every scot spoke Gaelic throughout history.The Picts held sway for a long time but that language has died out,except perhaps living on through its influence in Scots Gaelic (?) And then there were the introduced languages, i.e English for example.

Whatever anyone one says to the contrary unless they can convince me otherwise, I in no way understand English to be a language rooted in Scotland, but an introduced foriegn language. which although I do believe has served Scotland well and will continue to do so. I don't think it should be portrayed as being Scottish but for what it is.

So to remove/distort and to give precedence to place names( for example) origionally written in the language rooted in scotland.To a foreign language rooted in another country, England in this instance.Is to my mind the actions of a people who have long given up on themselves and their ancient heritage to become colonial Anglophile Dependents.Which of course is exactly what the auld Enemy set out to do in the first place! I think England is a great place and I think scotland is a great place but each has its own heritage and traditions and history one from the other.


The geographical origin of a language is utterly irrelevant. What matters is where it is spoken today i.e. by real living people, not 'goodies' and 'baddies' from your cartoon history.

You are correct about the Norse influence on Gaelic though; I've read that the unusual pronunciation of the letter 'r' can be attributed to Norse influence, among other things.
Avatar

Thats a good one, what came first the language or the people? I dont think theres a uniform answer - in some cases im sure the people came before the language and in other cases I think the language would have come first. In the case of the English im fairly certain the language would have come first - though i doubt it would have been called English old or otherwise. I think its quite important not to view language as a fixed entity more as a fluid stream that changes and evolves over time. I dont think the language we speak can even be really defined as english anymore, its taken on a far more global position.
garye

agentmancuso wrote:

The geographical origin of a language is utterly irrelevant. What matters is where it is spoken today i.e. by real living people, not 'goodies' and 'baddies' from your cartoon history.


I would take your point on board if it wasn't for the fact that on another thread you dismissed my assertion (despite having never met me or heard me ) that I spoke Scots. Maybe you don't think that I'm a real living person?
Babygael

Well Agentmancuso
Quote:
The geographical origin of a language is utterly irrevelent


That is the most assinine statement that I have heard in a long time! Shocked A persons language is a deeply personal thing,expressing things from their cultural perspective that only they can! A person can learn a language from scratch and speak it fluently but still there are some things that can only be spoken /spoken accurately by a first language speaker.

So why then do people such as the folks from Cornwall even bother trying to reassert their language? All the admirable, or should I say enviable efforts of the Welsh to do the same? A waste of time in your oppinion? Its just wan love wan language wan land mass,we are all wan, how sweet!

So much of Scotlands past and culture has been recorded in Gaelic,and much can only be translated accurately be a native speaker.In Gaelic song for example,unlike in English; its not the tune that carries it but the words and the way it is delivered.

But then again why bother? As this is all lost on loony toon colonial anglophile dependents!
agentmancuso

garye wrote:
agentmancuso wrote:

The geographical origin of a language is utterly irrelevant. What matters is where it is spoken today i.e. by real living people, not 'goodies' and 'baddies' from your cartoon history.


I would take your point on board if it wasn't for the fact that on another thread you dismissed my assertion (despite having never met me or heard me ) that I spoke Scots. Maybe you don't think that I'm a real living person?


Smile Maybe I dreamt you up...

It's probably best we agree to differ on the Scots thing, though I would like to point out for the record that I disputed not that you spoke Scots, but that it was a separate language. To me, what is spoken nowadays is a Scottish dialect of English.
agentmancuso

Babygael wrote:
Well Agentmancuso
Quote:
The geographical origin of a language is utterly irrevelent


That is the most assinine statement that I have heard in a long time! Shocked A persons language is a deeply personal thing,expressing things from their cultural perspective that only they can! A person can learn a language from scratch and speak it fluently but still there are some things that can only be spoken /spoken accurately by a first language speaker.


I agree entirely. For the vast majority of people living in Aberdeen, their first language is English. In fact most Aberdonians are more likely to be familiar with more words in either French, Spanish, Italian, German, Urdu, Punjabi, Hindi, Gujarati, Russian, Lithuanian, Latvian, or Polish than they are with words in Gaelic. The fact that the geographical origin of all these languages may be hundreds or thousands of miles away is, as I said, completely irrelevant; it is their language, because they speak it, and for that reason only. Making all the street signs in Aberdeen appear in Urdu would be a bit stupid, because only a minority would recognise the Urdu spelling of Aberdeen. How much stupider would it be to put all the signs in Gaelic, when even less people speak it?

Babygael wrote:

So why then do people such as the folks from Cornwall even bother trying to reassert their language?


'Their' language is English.

If you are referring to Celtic language that died out circa 1750, then as 99.9 percent of people in Cornwall could not recognise a single word of it, the possessive adjective is meaningless.

Babygael wrote:

All the admirable, or should I say enviable efforts of the Welsh to do the same? A waste of time in your oppinion?
Depends what you mean. Language study can be very rewarding. If you are asking my opinion on the likelihood of a Cornish language revival sweeping across the duchy, then I would have no option but to cough politely.

Babygael wrote:

Its just wan love wan language wan land mass,we are all wan, how sweet!


I can't quite grasp your meaning here - is this a Cornish chant maybe?

Babygael wrote:

So much of Scotlands past and culture has been recorded in Gaelic,and much can only be translated accurately be a native speaker.In Gaelic song for example,unlike in English; its not the tune that carries it but the words and the way it is delivered.


Are you sure that all songs in English are carried by the tune, rather than the words, or the way they are delivered? What about Transmission, by Joy Division, a song I of which I am particularly fond?

Babygael wrote:
But then again why bother? As this is all lost on loony toon colonial anglophile dependents!


Don't give up on me entirely; I just demand a greater degree of logical coherence than the majority of your interlocutors.
Highlander

Quote:
The precursors of modern english is not old english but anglo-saxon and Norman French all forms of "english" date from the mediaeval period before this anglo saxons spoke germanic dialects or a derivative Germanic language (correctly reffered to as anglo-saxon) which became one of the precursors to the development of english.


Old English is the language also known as Anglo-Saxon. Middle English is the evolution of old English and modern English is the evolution of Middle English. Old English was altered by influences from Norman French this created Middle English and then the great vowel shift created modern English, the language we speak today. And Old English was certainly in Scotland and so was Middle and now it is Modern English that we use. So English has always been a language of a Scotland as a nation. It arrived beofre the concept of a Scotland.
agentmancuso

Highlander wrote:
And Old English was certainly in Scotland and so was Middle and now it is Modern English that we use. So English has always been a language of a Scotland as a nation. It arrived beofre the concept of a Scotland.


Very true.

Fascinating though it is, all this linguistic debate is strictly irrelevant to the question of whether Scotland should be independent.
SLG

Highlander wrote:
Old English is the language also known as Anglo-Saxon. Middle English is the evolution of old English and modern English is the evolution of Middle English. Old English was altered by influences from Norman French this created Middle English and then the great vowel shift created modern English, the language we speak today. And Old English was certainly in Scotland and so was Middle and now it is Modern English that we use. So English has always been a language of a Scotland as a nation. It arrived beofre the concept of a Scotland.

I posted on this earlier on this thread, and you failed to reply. My point was that Anglo-Saxon (or Old-English if you prefer) did come to Scotland early on. This would have remained similar to the English spoken in parts of England for some time. At a point the two languages diverged into Scots in Scotland and modern English in England. Modern English has since been brought to Scotland and taken hold.
Highlander

Quote:
At a point the two languages diverged into Scots in Scotland and modern English in England.


Nope, Scots is an evolution of middle English or is in fact a dialect of middle english depending on the view. But Middle English (Not Scots) was spoken in Scotland and so was Old English before it and so is Modern English now. English has been a part of Scotland ever since Old English appeared on these shores.
Avatar

Quote:
Highlander wrote:
And Old English was certainly in Scotland and so was Middle and now it is Modern English that we use. So English has always been a language of a Scotland as a nation. It arrived beofre the concept of a Scotland.

agentmancuso wrote:
Very true.


Any minute now someones going to accuse you of applying modern concepts to history.. Very Happy
SLG

Highlander wrote:
Quote:
At a point the two languages diverged into Scots in Scotland and modern English in England.

Nope, Scots is an evolution of middle English or is in fact a dialect of middle english depending on the view. But Middle English (Not Scots) was spoken in Scotland and so was Old English before it and so is Modern English now. English has been a part of Scotland ever since Old English appeared on these shores.

The development of a language can't just be placed into three categories and those used to define its entire history. For a few hundred years, the languages evolved differently (from what you could describe as a common source) and then modern English (as developed in the South of England) was imported.
agentmancuso

Avatar wrote:
Quote:
Highlander wrote:
And Old English was certainly in Scotland and so was Middle and now it is Modern English that we use. So English has always been a language of a Scotland as a nation. It arrived beofre the concept of a Scotland.

agentmancuso wrote:
Very true.


Any minute now someones going to accuse you of applying modern concepts to history.. Very Happy


It did express my thoughts very loosely, it's true Embarassed

I should have said something to the effect that Old English had arrived in what is now Scottish territory before the shape of modern Scotland was settled.
Babygael

Tha e gabhar!

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