Irish Republican Socialist Movement

kalashnikov · Irish Republican Socialist Movement

I am a sympathiser of the IRSP/INLA groups in Ireland. What are the opinions here on Ireland and the situation over there?

azzuri

Well I have very strong links to Northern Ireland in particular as my partner is from there and I will be moving over there in the next few months.

Having studied Irish Politics in my last year at uni gave me a much more 'informed view' of the situation over there - both in the Republic and in Ulster.

People are moving on in the Republic and to be honest most aren't interested in Northern Ireland or the Northern Irish people because they see them as 'backward bigots' who will drag the Republic down economically (I do stress this is just a stereotypical view - not from all those from the Republic).

The situation in NI irritates me a lot. Mostly because every time it looks as though there is going to be progress something else crops up. Some of the peacemakers over there must feel it's like hitting their heads against a brick wall but at the moment it seems that there is only one side doing the fighting and it isn't the Republicans.

In my opinion Northern Ireland would do best to become Independent of both the UK and the Republic - a halfway house so to speak that would annoy all but never really anger a majority - I feel this is the only way forward at the moment.

kalashnikov

In my opinion the break up of Ireland was a criminal act, similar to the division of India. I think the only way forward is class unity between catholic and prodestant workers who need to cast aside sectarian leaders and politicians to wage a struggle which could return the occupied 6 counties to Ireland under a workers government. The life and writtings of James Connolly are increasingly popular amongst young Irish people and if studied carefully will have a great influence in the events that lie ahead.

azzuri

I think you are right in some respects but young Irish people need to look to the future - without making the same mistakes as those in the past.

Believe it or not the UK wasn't interested in holding on to Northern Ireland on it's own. Westminster wanted to wash their hands of Ireland altogether. It was down to the 'loyalists' within NI who threatened to attack Britain and the British army unless their demands of remaining part of the UK were met. I'm not entirely sure but I think this is where the origins of the UVF come from (please correct me for any mistakes I've made so far!). Britain was more worried about going to war with half of Europe and would've quite gladly washed their hands of the whole of Ireland at the time.

I think you have to understand the political and religious climate at the time in order to understand why the Protestants/Ulster Scots/Brits (who I believe made up to 70% of the Ulster population at the time) wanted to remain part of the UK at this time. You have to understand that religious tensions had been high in Ireland for centuries due to a struggle on both sides. Protestants were obviously in a minority in the whole of Ireland but were a majority in Ulster. They were scared as what they saw as their country was abandoning them to a country who would neither share nor respect their religious views and try and suppress 'their' culture (which is ironic given the treatment of catholics in NI in the last century).

A majority of those within Ulster at the time of Separation wanted to stay a part of the UK - and those that did felt a distinct cultural and religious difference from their neighbours in the south. Hence the creation of Northen Ireland as a province within the UK.

azzuri

forgot to add.........

to deny that there are two very distinct cultures within Northern Ireland would be ludicrous - however this does not mean that they both cannot flourish within a united Ireland.

Hopefully both Republicans and Loyalists can go about acheiving their political goals through democratic and peaceful means.

sandmountainslim

Being a Southron, Ulster is of course always in my heart as most of my ancestors settled in County Antrim for some time between living in Alba and Alabama, as Russell stated though there are alot of people and groups there with extreme views on both sides of the spectrum, I had one Orangeman send me an email last year telling me his dream was the genocide and forced removal of all Catholics in the counties and the creation of a "Protestant Republic". Also alot of Unionists living there, I can never understand how a Scot or Ulster Scot can support English domination, it is beyond my level of reasoning, I suppose. Confused

corazón del león

Rinty · informed

azzuri

I realise that not all of Ulster is within Northern Ireland, however many people don't know the difference.

If you look back at my posts you'll realise thet are in context.

Fact - most people within Ulster at the time of Partition were protestants

The fact that the Province itself was split in two with the creation of NI is irrelevent.

They aren't called the Ulster Volunteer Force for nothing.

I don't see where my posts clash?

sandmountainslim

Rinty · obviuosly

kalashnikov

Class warfare is alive and well, show me one country on Earth where tension isnt growing between those who work and those who do not.

There have been many strikes in Scotland alone over the last few years, the contradictions of capitalism will not allow a peaceful co-existance between the classes. The only solution is the liquidation of class society, a planned socialist society must be fought for.

sandmountainslim

corazón del león

SLG

kalashnikov

Voting every few years to decide which political party governs the country may be considered to be “freedom” for some, but I certainly do not think so.

You cannot vote out the free market, capitalism, and imperialism.

Abieuan

kalashnikov

Abieuan

If the SNP wins in Scotland and delivers independence i'm sure the first post-independence government elected would be a left wing one.

It would be this government that could address your issues of free market, capitalism and imperialism.

I still think that the SNP will have to win in Scotland before the parties of the left will get anywhere.

RBK

You're right, they are not. They take their name from an organisation that was before the split. Actually originally from a British army approved defence organisation just like the UDA.

I can't understand this part of your post. What year,era are you referring to?

beidh an bua againn

The IRSM are the only political grouping attempting to unite the working class and work for national liberation. We're the only movement doing both, and we're also the only republican movement not compromised by either militarism or parliamentary opportunism (unless you also count the workers solidarity movement - they're not republican but they're anti-imperialist).

We're not a nationalist movement - we have no problem with the people identifying with British culture in the north defining themselves as they like.

_____________

FROM DAILY IRELAND Today:

Protestant alienation – the republican socialist view

The Irish Republican Socialist Party’s ardchomhairle rejects the idea that working-class Protestants are being suppressed and argues that gangsterism is ruining their lives

Republican ideology has never really taken into account how to deal with unionism in the north-east of Ireland.

Generally speaking, there were two approaches taken. First, the benign approach simply felt that in the struggle for freedom, unionism would be converted by the non-sectarian republican struggle against British imperialism. The more malign approach saw the unionists as a ‘settler class’ or as “planters” who either would submit to the Republic or take the boat from Larne back to where they came from.

Republican Socialists are not sectarian and not nationalists. We do not have a problem with people believing in the Protestant religion or considering themselves to be British. We believe that everyone in Ireland has the right to hold on to their own identity, culture and perceived nationality.

For example, there are Chinese people in Ireland who consider themselves to be Chinese and are holding on to their language and culture – the same with Polish or Nigerian people etc. So, if the Protestant people in the North consider themselves to be British and not Irish, our movement has no problem with it.

There are many things in the British culture and history that republican socialists can identify with. There is the democratic tradition of the Levellers, and the Chartists. However, one of the objections our movement has is that many Protestants who consider themselves to be British only hold on to one expression of British identity – the monarchy and nostalgia for the Empire etc. Republican socialists would say that there are other ways of being British.

Republican Socialists distinguish the Protestant tradition from the unionist and loyalist traditions which call for the British state to rule the six counties. Our problem is with them. The unionist majority in the North is not ethnic or religious but political in nature.

Our problem with unionism and loyalism has nothing to do with nationality or territory. Our issue with unionism and loyalism is that they are essentially anti-democratic in nature. What we are in conflict with is the unionist veto.

Every advance towards a more democratic North is perceived to be a victory for republicans and a defeat for unionism. Hence, the recent call by loyalist paramilitaries, following intense violence on the streets of Belfast, to end what they call the “suppression and containment" of Protestants in the North of Ireland.

The pathetic sight of the Orange leaders ‘doing a Pontius Pilate’ over the violence following their march on the Springfield Road in Belfast would have been funny if it had not been so sad. Sad because many loyalist working-class areas suffered in the aftermath and the violence gave the gangsters and drug dealing thugs in the UDA and UVF the pretence that they were defending their communities from the police.

Gangsterism now is ruining the lives of thousands of working-class Protestants. The greatest threat to the Protestant working class comes, not from republicans, not from the the INLA, or any of the many IRAs, but from their so-called loyalist defenders.

In response to “Protestant frustration and alienation" the British direct-ruler Peter Hain, has said that he wanted to embark on a programme of intensive engagement with elected representatives and civic leaders of the Protestant community and that more investment will be directed towards deprived areas. On the same day, he also announced that he was going to take tough financial measures to extract higher rates and water charges. So what goes into working-class areas will also come out, as these charges will hit heaviest on the poorest working-class districts, both Protestant and Catholic alike.

There is a negative leadership from the unionist leaders, saying ‘no’ to talks with Sinn Féin and refusing to meet with representatives of nationalist residents affected by Orange marches. They claim all sorts of gains for nationalists and how Protestants are being discriminated against and this only perpetuates sectarian divisions and demoralises sections of protestant working-class opinions. The unionist politicians are happy to sit and talk with loyalist paramilitaries in the hope of using their muscle to force the British government to cede to their demands and stop any further democratic advances.

Cultures arise out of certain social, economic and geographical conditions. Slavery was once considered as the norm. No one today would defend it, so why today should people in the North of Ireland be expected to treat the Orange Order as merely a cultural expression of Protestantism when it is so blatantly not. It is certainly not an expression of being British today.

In the new dispensation of the Good Friday Agreement (GFA) terms or phrases like the national question, anti-imperialism and self-determination have become obsolete. The new buzzwords include “equality”, and “parity of esteem” and “a Europe of the regions”. Well-integrated into the European union the southern ruling class has a clear vested interest in putting the Northern question to bed. Instability threatens the Celtic tiger. However, the problem about equality in the North of Ireland is that under the current economic system – capitalism – to create equality where there are inequalities means in effect taking from those who have, to redistribute to those who have not. In other words, take from the Protestants and give to the Catholics.

The closure of the traditional heavy industry, which was also a main career path for Protestants, has now all but vanished. Even the major universities in the North have a predominantly Catholic/Nationalist feel to them and many Protestants feel alienated.

Hence, the flight of the Protestant middle classes to English and Scottish universities. Traditionally the Protestant working class, guaranteed jobs in industry put little or no reliance on education and now are in grave danger of becoming an underclass.

The peace process was underpinned by a belief that the conflict was ethnic and so the end result of the peace process, the GFA institutionalised communally-based politics. That is not the way forward for either the Catholic or the Protestant working class.

The IRSP believes that the emancipation of the Protestant working class should be the work of Protestant workers themselves.

The IRSP ardchomhairle

parkhead_rfb

ideally the british presence would be removed from ireland and a new ireland would be set up along the guidelines of eire nua, which would see a federal government formed in ireland comprising of Ulster (all 9 counties) Munster Connacht and Leinster. this would give those who wish to maintain theor british identity a significant weighting over issues in the north to assure they are never treated like second class citizens in the way catholics were and still are in the sectarian 6 counties.

azzuri

why not an independent Northern Ireland? Wouldn't this be a more progressive movement which would receive a lot more public support?

parkhead_rfb

no as unionists would still be in the majority and able to treat the catholic/nationalist population as second class citizens. also i am against it purely on the grounds that you cant go around dividing nations to suit the agenda of a bigoted minority. also i very much doubt an independent six counties would be econmically viable.

azzuri

I LIVE in Northern Ireland.

I LIVE within a small nationalist community.

On the whole these people believe Northern Ireland has changed for the better and they DO NOT feel like second class citizens. It is a minority who keep all of this rubbish going while ordinary people just want to get on with their lives.

When you talk about Unionists I imagine you are talking about Protestants - which many of my friends would take as an offence as I know many Nationalist Protestants. The ratio of Catholics to Protestants in NI now is roughly 45:55 - hardly a huge majority for the 'Unionists'. And although this is stereotypical, the Catholic community do tend to have more kids so that ratio is closing all the time - some think that within 15 years the majority of NI will be Catholics.

I think your views are extremely unbalanced - you need to talk to the general population of Catholics within NI - most are happy with the current situation - why exactly would they want to rock the boat?

You realise that if in fact if there was to be a united Ireland it would cause tremendous riots amongst the Unionist community in the shape of a backlash against the State - much in the way the IRA have terrorised Britain over the last 30 years.

It's basically a non-starter at the moment - the best situation for all sides is for Northern Ireland to become fully independent of the UK but to stay independent also of ROI.

Only in 20 or 30 years would it be viable to think of uniting both the North and the South - even then the political climate would have to be considered carefully.

Northern Ireland and ROI have developed into very different places over the last 70 or 80 years. The people and cultures are different - I think you'd find a minority on both sides want a united Ireland at the moment.

parkhead_rfb

oh you live there so you must know everything. i have been visiting the north frequently for years and have many friends there so i do have experience of life in the six counties. i have a friend in ardoyne whos little girl was terrorised on her way to school, had urine thrown at her, was shown pornographic images etc. i have an ex whos school bus was regularly attacked on the way to school by grown men, this was an all girl school. residents of the short strand in east belfast come under sustained attack particularly during the marching season when they are denied access to doctors, education establishments etc so please dont pretend all things are equal in the six counties, but should we just accept it because it perhaps isnt as bad as it used to be?

also your figures are out the catholic population isnt as close to the protestant population as you make out, i dont have the figures from the last census at hand but you have exxagerated the catholic numbers. also you state that many nationalists wouldnt want to "rock the boat" the fact, however, that provisional sinn fein are now the largest nationalist party in the north suggests different, unification is most certainly still high on the nationalist agenda. also the birth rate of the catholic poulation is significantly slowing and is expected by many experts to tail off so it will be comparative with that of the protestant population.

im also aware there are protestant nationalists, the founding father of republicanism wolfetone was a protestant, but unfortunately they are small in numbers indeed stats show that catholics are more likely to vote uup than protestants to vote psf or sdlp.

azzuri

First of all - I never retorted to know everything. I studied Irish Politics at Uni and realised pretty quickly on my regular visits to Ireland that not everything is what it seems.

I am not saying that nothing bad has happened to the catholic community in Northern Ireland - as there obviously has - but lets get it into perspective.

In the 1990's these sorts of attacks grew few and far between - in fact - a recent UN report states that SCOTLAND has the highest rates of violent crime in the developed world - maybe you should be concentrating on that!?!?

Sinn Fein and the DUP play upon communities' fears in order to gain power.

The effectiveness of these tactics will wear off with time however - as attacks and prejudices become less and less common (just like the boy who cried "wolf!").

People in Northern Ireland are beginning to realise that they are Northern Irish, not just Brits or Irish. Evidence of this is that there is now a smallish Independence Movement.

The recent Northern Irish victory over the English in football (or soccer in some camps) gave the country a definite sense of well-being and togetherness for a short while. Even the most hard-hearted of nationalists couldn't help but break into a smile when Northern Ireland scored.

I can see this wonderful little country transforming slowly but surely before my eyes for the better. It takes a long time to change attitudes - but no one wants to go back to the days of bombings and people having their handbags checked before entering shopping centres.

It's heartening to think that the hardline Republican and Loyalist movements are now more popular outwith Northern Ireland (namely in Scotland and the USA) than within it. These groups are nothing but glorified drugs rings dressing their campaign up as struggles while doing nothing to help their communities.

parkhead_rfb

now your starting to verge on the ridiculous mate.

"It's heartening to think that the hardline Republican and Loyalist movements are now more popular outwith Northern Ireland (namely in Scotland and the USA) than within it. These groups are nothing but glorified drugs rings dressing their campaign up as struggles while doing nothing to help their communities."

i would like you to present your evidence that republican armed groups have been involved in drug dealing, i can present evidence where such groups have taken direct action against people selling drugs.

"The recent Northern Irish victory over the English in football (or soccer in some camps) gave the country a definite sense of well-being and togetherness for a short while. Even the most hard-hearted of nationalists couldn't help but break into a smile when Northern Ireland scored."

now thats priceless. have you ever seen the flags on display and the songs sung at windsor park, nationalists are most certainly not welcome. i certainly dont know one nationalist who would break out into a smile at a six counties goal!

"People in Northern Ireland are beginning to realise that they are Northern Irish, not just Brits or Irish. Evidence of this is that there is now a smallish Independence Movement."

this certainly must be a very very small independence movement as i certainly havent come across it.

Sinn Fein and the DUP play upon communities' fears in order to gain power.

"The effectiveness of these tactics will wear off with time however - as attacks and prejudices become less and less common (just like the boy who cried "wolf!")."

perhaps you can explain why psf and the dup are now the largest parties of their respective communities? also were psf "crying wolf" over anti catholic discrimination and collusin, where it has now been proven that the british government colluded with loyalist paramilitaries to murder innocent nationalists and also their lawyers!

"In the 1990's these sorts of attacks grew few and far between - in fact - a recent UN report states that SCOTLAND has the highest rates of violent crime in the developed world - maybe you should be concentrating on that!?!? "

once again there is significant evidence to say that sporadic sectarian attacks have actually increased of late. i obviously very worried about scotlands high rate of violence particularly coming from the east end of glasgow. but i am against injusticies wherever they occure, from the bogside to Basra!

parkhead_rfb

Fallen Comrade of the Irish Republican Socialist Movement

Patrick Campbell
Volunteer - Irish National Liberation Army
Died on 10 October 1999

Patrick Campbell, age 22, was living in Dublin and a member of an
anti-drugs unit of the INLA when he was involved in a confrontation
with Dublin criminals, who attacked the unit and critically injured
him. He died four days later in hospital.

Campbell was originally from West Belfast, coming from a long-standing
and respected republican family. His father, Robert, was a member of a
Provisional IRA unit responsible for the shooting death of a British
Special Air Service captain in 1980 and later escaped from Crumlin
Road Jail.

He died as he lived: a Republican Socialist. Remember him with honour
and pride.

http://www.irsm.org/fallen/campbell/

azzuri

I resent having to type out such a long post as its late and I'm getting tired - but I'll go ahead anyway: Very Happy

Have heard straight from the horses' mouth so to speak. I spoke to a few ex-Republican and Loyalist group members when studying at University as part of my Irish Politics course. When both sides realised the fight was becoming less and less political and the communities support was declining - less honest folk started to take the top positions and pursued less ethical ways of funding their activities. Unfortunately I have no paper evidence - but I suspect you have none either to prove otherwise - how could you or I? - What a ridiculous thing to ask for! Rolling Eyes

In terms of the football - maybe I didn;t quite make my point clear. I know plenty of people in the Catholic community who were absolutely delighted when Northern Ireland beat England. They are well-balanced people who hold no grudges - it is only soccer after all. The independence movement IS small as it has to fight against the hard-line republicans and unionists political parties who rule by mainly creating fear in the communities. This will change over the next few decades however.

I'm not going to sit and talk about individual cases of terrorism or atrocities - it happened on both sides - and two wrongs don't make a right.

There is also evidence to suggest that assaults and violent crime are not rising in Northern Ireland due to the sectarian influences - rather that increased consumption of Alcohol leads to more violent crime - as it is reported to have done in Scotland, England and Wales.

The people I mix with in both communities are well-balanced individuals who know which side their bread is buttered on. They realise things are better than ever in Northern Ireland and even though old habits die hard the decent, hard-working people are getting on with things the way a normal society does. You obviously take a very hardline stance and are entitled to do so as that is your political right - but is it worth pursuing a United Ireland at any cost? I certainly don't want my kids growing up afraid of violence from either side in my adopted home.

I take no side in this argument. I try to present a balanced view of things from someone who has seen a lot of progress in NI over the ppast couple of years.

For your information - I beleive the political party has recently been set up under the name 'Ulster Third Way' which wishes to promote Independence. They wish to offer the people "a real
alternative to the tired old dogmas of unionism and republicanism".

parkhead_rfb

i have just presented eveidence of an inla volunteer killed in action due to activities against anti social behaviour. similarly the provos were heavily linked to a group called direct again against drug dealers that is my evidence. your evidence would come in the form of republicans actually convicted of any such crimes, do you have any? Also you must remember that at times republican paramilitaries were the only people willing to protect vulnerable nationalist communities whilst the ruc, b specials and the b specials stood by and at times aided loyalist attacks, these facts are undeniable. These people stood against an imperialist war machine and eventually brought the british government to the negotiating table and for you to label them as some type of criminal organisation is deeply insulting to the volunteers of these organisations, in particular the hunger strikers who starved to death for recognition that theirs was a political struggle.

i am not suggesting that thr armed struggle is the way forward at present but i certainly wont denounce those who have took part in it in the past.

as for the they know which side their bread is buttered on can you explain that comment?

and are these catholics you know from areas such as ardoyne and the falls or are they your more leafy suburb type of nationalists?

azzuri

first of all - I agree about the RUC etc. - that fact is undeniable - but again these are things of the past.

In terms of 'bread/butter' I'm merely talking about folk who lived through the troubles and realise that their life is much better now than it was then. They don't want to go back to the old ways.

Innocent men, women and children killed for no good reason - no political aim is worth that cost. You grew up in Glasgow and although have hardline republican beliefs - I bet it wasn't your brothers and sisters that were being killed. A people can only go so long with this sort of thing happening before they realise enough is enough. That has happened hence why the IRA have given up their armed struggle.

I think Nationalists are Nationalists wherever they are from - and they would be offended to think you think their opinion isn't worth as much because of where they are from. Didn't realise there was some sort of Nationalist Ranking system depending on how close to the front line you are or what street you live on?!?!? Do you think your opinions/feelings on the matter are worth less because you are from Glasgow?

parkhead_rfb

my point is that middle class nationalists tended to suffer less from the oppression that led working class nationalists into armed resistance and so would be more willing to accept the trappings of the sectarian 6county institutions.

The death of every non combatant in during the armed campaigns are obviously regrettable and the pira have expressed deep remorse over these events, i know this does not help the families who have lost love ones but what were the alternatives to an armed struggle given the situation within nationalist communities at the time? Also you need to remember that republicans were fighting a guerilla war against a world superpower and could only use the options that were open to them. one of these options were economic bombs and unfortunately innocent people lost their lives, but it is also true that republicans have phoned warnings etc but in any war situation unfortunately innocent people will suffer.

i dont come onto this sight glorifying war, all war is ugly and should only be used as a last resort under legitimate circumstances and i believe that republicans have had legitimate circumstances and it was a last resort given the british governments unwillingness to deal with the situation in the north of ireland.

azzuri

It's not that they were unwilling - partly they didn't really understand the situation properly because Northern Ireland had pretty much been left up to their own affairs for so long - and it was partly because they went about it in the totally wrong way.

Thatcher decided the best thing to do was to just send in the military and chuck as much money as she could at it and it would just go away. I think those in mainland britain underestimated both the resolve of the Catholic community and also the plain discrimination that was taking place against catholics. It was the wrong policy because basically the whole 'no surrender to terrorists' thing worked entirely in the Republicans favour.

parkhead_rfb

it certainly didnt work in favour of those republicans who were interned, imprisioned,tortured, starved themselves to death and killed by collusion. i find that remark rather silly to be honest.

Also british solutions in ireland didnt begin with thatcher. look at sunningdale in 1974 unionist reactions to this really should have given the british some idea as to what the nationalists were dealing with, but instead they continued to oppress the nationalist communities.

beidh an bua againn

parkhead_rfb

from april 1 to august 31 this year, 726 sectarian incidents were reported, almost five a day. this figure is more than double that for the previous six months which stood at 339. the RUC/PSNI said that a sectarian motive is a significant line of enquiry in the killing of belfast nationalist Thomas Devlin. out of 42 incidents in the Ballymena district more than half were against the nationalist community.

azzuri

of course there are more sectarian attacks for those particular months - they include the 12th July and the whole of the marching season - which invariably increases tensions in Northern Ireland! If you are going to give stats - give them in a like for like format.

RBK

There is a lot of talk about how Roman Catholics/Republicans/Nationalists suffered.
It could be returned in kind, for every tale of suffering on one side. The other side could produce one too.

To lionise the i.r.s.p or ira or uda uvf. I think is wrong.

I honestly fail to understand people who defend Sinn Fein/I.R.A. actrocties. Certainly there has been loyalist violence and it to should be condemned.

If you watched the programme 'Loyalists' [part of a trio] you may recall a part, where one loyalist said he became a para-military after carrying one of the Balmoral Babies from an explosion on the Shankill Rd, a bomb was placed there by the i.r.a.

Gerry Adams said later ''they were just causaltys of war''

Then you have the La Mon House Hotel explosion where more people were incinerated and burned to death,by the brave boys of the i.r.a. What were they doing to deserve this?. Well some people belonged to a motor-cycle club and were having a social evening. The other people murdered were members of a dog loving group 'The Collie Club of Ireland' Human beings torn to pieces and burned to death by these heroes of Ireland.

I for one can't go along with that.

But its not all doom and gloom. This man reacted differently to the Balmoral Babies explosion. --

Atrocity 'led to peace quest'

02 October 2005
REV. Harold Good has revealed how a Provo atrocity spurred his 30-year quest for peace.

He said the IRA's no-warning bombing of the Balmoral Furniture Store on the Shankill Road in 1971 (left), made him determined to work for peace.

The clergyman was based in the area at the time of the attack, which claimed the lives of a 17-month old baby, a two-year-old girl and two men.

Since then, the Rev Good has worked for the cause of peace.

Speaking to us last night, Rev Good said that he was willing to meet with the victims of the Provo outrage and other victims of republican violence to outline his reasons for acting as independent witness to decommissioning.

Rev Good, who received a letter of support on Friday from a mother who lost a child to the IRA, said he would always listen to victims of loyalist or republican violence.

He said: "I remember the babies being pulled out of the rubble of the Balmoral and it is an image I will never forget.

"If the mother of the little ones who were killed in that blast would like to meet me, I would value the opportunity of such a meeting.

"We are all on a journey and I hope that what I have witnessed can lead to a better future for everyone."

The victims of the Balmoral Furniture Store bombing were:

? Colin Nicholl (17 months).

? Tracy Munn (2).

? Harold King (20).

? Hugh Bruce (50).

Kevin Barry

Leathlaobhair

You can call Republicans many things but drug dealers are not one of them. No member of Sinn Féin or any branch of the IRA has ever been arrested for drug dealing. I think they leave that to their Loyalists pals.

also...

SLG

trueblue

thats right. no-one in the ira deals in drugs, get a f***ing grip of yourselve's. connections with farc, smuggling through mexico. and of course the lovely dadd taking out 'other' drug dealers.

my god.

trueblue

if you go to http://irbb.rr.nu/ you will find a thread all about drug dealing amongst republicans. even their own admit it is going on.

Kevin Barry

trueblue

yawn. republicans deal in drugs. to deny this is similar to the hogwash they sold to the yanks to get funds from them to continue their acts of terror in the uk. then sept. 11 hapened and the yanks then realised what terrorists actually do and the funds dried up quickly, and rightly so.

parkhead_rfb

well were getting on a week now and he still hasnt produced any evidence Laughing

Kevin Barry

parkhead_rfb

its so obviously true.......that he cant produce evidence.

kalashnikov

He'll probably post a link to the News of the World top 100 drug dealers 1997/98 and point out (using his usual mixture of horrendous grammar and pitiful spelling) that number 62 Paddy O'Rouke had a Granny from Belfast and was a season ticket holder at Celtic Park.

trueblue

to be honest i have posted enough to prove this but you have decided it is not good enough. it is INCREDIBLY NAIVE to believe that criminal gangs do not deal in drugs. and lets just just say they did not, does that give them some sort of moral pass for their other criminal behaviour.

'aye but the uvf do it' nah nah. AND!

when it comes to spellling and grammar, i'm not really paying much attention.

kalashnikov

trueblue

no ia'm not paeing much atenttion to spelling and. grranar.

Kevin Barry

trueblue

the ira deal and liscense drug dealers mafia style. if you are not paying the ira to allow you to deal drugs then nice cuddly dadd will kill you. the ira are involved in the drug trade.you know it, i know it and everyone else does.

answer my question-if they did not (ahem) deal in drugs does this give them some sort of moral high ground?

parkhead_rfb

wheres your evidence for that claim?

trueblue

i fully expect you to write this off as well as eberything else i have said about the ira and their non-involvement in the drug trade but heyho.

http://sundayherald.com/17805

http://ulsternation.org.uk/godfathers.htm

http://www.cfdp.ca/terror.htm on this link go down to the part titled ' US GENERAL ACCOUNTING OFFICE' it is about 2/3 way down. all this stuff about ira drug dealers on a canadian website, anti-republican b***ards those canadians.

RBK

SLG

RBK

trueblue

i'm still waiting for a response to my question of 'can the ira take a moral high ground if they really did not deal in drugs?'

parkhead_rfb

is anyone ever entitled to take the moral high ground? the ira has made mistakes they acknowledge this themselves. i await your evidence still...

parkhead_rfb

just noticed your ummmm evidence on the other page.

1. the situation with FARC is far more complex than simply making money from the drug trade they are a revolutionary marxist organisation who i will be honest and say i dont know that much about but it isnt as clean cut as you can just say that they are drug dealers in it for profit. secondly no trial was ever given to the columbia three, and the columbian justice system is widely discredited in any case.

2. so becasue some guy prints it in a book its true? where is his evidence? exactly he doesnt have any. this wont be the first book to make unsubstantiated claims against republicans and it wont be the last. also the author worked previously for the sunday world......enough said.

3. i will look at this in more depth later when i have more time, good to see your sources are getting obscure though.

trueblue

thank you for confirming your ignorance and 'one sided view'.

of course they are obscure, you do not agree with them.

please tell me which sources, only 3, that you would accept.

please, just 3 that you consider fair, balanced and trustworthy.

parkhead_rfb

i would exept a sound conviction which had been confirmed against all methods of appeal including the european court of human rights for example, i would certainly take note of evidence were it to come from a paper with a decent reputation for journalism, the guardian for example. Although why i am even debating the validity of evidence with someone who even refuses to accept that catholics in the six counties were subjected to gross inequalities i do not know.

parkhead_rfb

i had a look at that third link and i cant for the life of me see any evidence that republicans engaged in drug dealing in that report, i see one sentence where the offer states that they did but i dont see any EVIDENCE.

trueblue

heed in the sand.
forget it.
you ask for evidence and get it and as suspected you rule it out cos it doesnae suit your viewpoint. NEVER join a debating society, you would be wasting everyones time.

'the guardian' s**t paper, the moral equivalent and polar opposite of the daily mail. one is as bad as the other and their readers even more blindand stupid.

parkhead_rfb

all that report states is that republican groups were involved in drug dealing it doesnt state how we know this, it gives no empirical evidence it gives no qualitative evidence it gives no convictions, you really should learn to distinguish between evidence and opinion. David Irvine has released a book denying that the holocaust happened are we to believe that because its in a book as well.

trueblue

yawn.

kalashnikov

Been drinking too much of your horlicks again TB?

RBK

Yer wasting your time True Blue.

trueblue

parkhead_rfb

jog on?

big brother fan are we Laughing

trueblue

Kevin Barry

Wow! Your 'proof' consists of one essay, a book and a quoting from police saying more or less 'we believe they might be into drug-dealing' with NO evidence... Laughing

I definitely believe the Republican side holds the historical and ideological high-ground. If I didn't I wouldn't call myself a Republican.

trueblue

RBK

Personally I can't see why its necessary to show if the ira deal in drugs[and I know it can affect peoples lives] But I think their murder of the Balmoral Babies and the burning to death of people at the La Mon House Hotel,shows what sort of 'people' they are.

trueblue

parkhead_rfb

there you go once again resorting to arguing at nonsensical tangents. heres an idea, make a point, back it up with proof. if someone else makes a point disagree with it and then back that up with facts against it, just now you look very very silly.

trueblue

i'm not going to insult anyones intelligence about what happened in warrington. everyone knows.

Irish Republican Socialist Movement

informed

obviuosly