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Dave Coull
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Dialects and languagesWhen I was in Barcelona, I soon got used to the signs in Catalan. I know a bit of French and I know a bit of Spanish and if you know these two related languages you can pretty much find your way around in Catalan. Some years ago, a friend of mine was living in Barcelona. He had an idea for a PhD thesis, which he put to the University of Barcelona. He wanted to do research, and to write a thesis, on re-emerging nations such as (for instance) Scotland and Catalonia. (This was far more of a new idea at that time than it is now!) Great idea, said the University authorities. Of course, it will have to be written in Catalan. Sadly, my friend gave up a little too easily at that point. It really wouldn't have been so difficult.
Dundee used to be known for the three Js - "Jute, Jam, and Journalism". The "Scotland On Sunday" newspaper a few days ago had an article entitled "Jute, jam and student gibberish". Was this an admission by the author, Marc Horne, that it wasn't exactly high-quality journalism? In the article, Marc reported that the University of Abertay has a lot of students from overseas, and that the University has given some advice regarding language to these students.
"The warning is posted on Abertay's online guide to living and studying in Dundee. It states: 'The Scottish accent is regional and can be stronger in some areas. It will normally take a couple of weeks for your ear to become attuned to the accent.' The guide then attempts to reassure international students, saying: 'Lecturers at the university are from all around the world so they may not necessarily have a Scottish accent.'" - That is true. When I was at the University of Abertay in 1993, it was the "international" lecturers I found quite difficult to understand!
"Abertay spokesman Kevin Coe said fears over language barriers were common among overseas students. 'We would advise people to watch Scottish films or listen to Radio Scotland online before they arrive so they can introduce themselves to the way people speak English here.'" - the fact is, we do have loads of students from other countries here in Scotland, and they are welcome here, and the Scottish Executive has introduced measures to encourage them to stay in Scotland after they graduate because they are an asset. I think the University of Abertay is right to reccomend that foreign students should make an effort to understand Scots, and to give helpfull advice on how to do so.
But Marc gives an example of a supposedly "Dundonian" expression which is nothing of the kind. "TWA bridies, a plen ane in an ingin ane an a." There is just one language characteristic which is peculiarly Dundonian. The use of the "eh" sound, as in "Eh hed a peh fur meh teh in Dundeh". Outside of Dundee, even just a mile or two outside the city boundaries, NOBODY speaks like that. However, apart from the Dundonian "plen", there is nothing particularly Dundonian about ""Twa bridies, a plen ane in an ingin ane an a." All the rest of it is just Scots, certainly the kind of Scots that is my own native tongue and which is widely spoken throughout the north-east of Scotland. As for bridies, they come originally from Forfar, not Dundee. The origin of the term "bridie" is that King Bridei, king of the Picts (this is serious history, folks) defeated the Angles of Northumbria at the Battle of Dunnichen, near Forfar. (The Angles referred to this battle by the name of Nechtansmere, but it's the same punch-up.) The result of this battle was that Pictland/Alba/Scotland did not come under Northumbrian rule, and, as part of the celebrations, the folk of Forfar came up with a pie in the shape of a half-moon, King Bridei's symbol.
You could perhaps describe Dundonian as a dialect. But as for Scots, it is a language. Catalan is related to both Spanish and French, but it is a language. Why? Because the Catalan government says so. Norwegian and Swedish are mutually understandable when spoken slowly, yet Norwegian is not a dialect of Swedish. Why? Because the government of Norway, which severed its United Kingdom with Sweden in 1905, says so. There are dialects of German that are more different from standard German than Dutch is, and yet they are dialects and Dutch is a language. Why? Because the Dutch government says so. Scots is a language. Hoo come? Ciz we bluidy weel say so.
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carol
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I saw a Dundonian lad for a few months and found the dialogue quite sexy and he definitely had a broad accent. I wouldn't like to hear it high pitched though  There were some words I had difficulty in understanding.
Our local accent is quite guffy and I'm having to correct my kids all the time.
As for my accent it's a Heinz 57 variety, very very saucy  On a serious note my dad a Scot (or a Jock as the Taffies used to call us) was in a Welsh regiment for 22 years, so I was brought up all over the place (well literally dragged  ) and my accent can only be describe as different 
Also got some Italian blood flowing through my veins 
regards
Carol
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RadgeJougal
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Don't feed the Coull (or his ego) - he'll rabbit on forever. And he's as mad as a hatter.
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carol
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it's what I call social conversation RJ it does occur occasionally between myself and Dave
Can't quite picture Dave as a rabbit though 
regards
Carol
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RadgeJougal
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Probably more a rabid ferret instead Carol. - Radgie
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carol
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frothy man  
ooooooooooh Radgie you are awful but I like you
Do I know you?
regards
Carol
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RadgeJougal
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No sayn. 
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carol
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Radgie you intrigue me
I think we've killed Dave's topic
regards
Carol
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Dave Coull
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Carol wrote "got some Italian blood flowing through my veins" - you've got something in common with my American wife, then. Although her granny on her dad's side was Scottish, she has an Italian grandparent on her mother's side, and my mother-in-law does Italian cooking.
Carol also wrote "my dad a Scot (or a Jock as the Taffies used to call us) was in a Welsh regiment for 22 years, so I was brought up all over the place" - in my case, joining the military for five years at age seventeen had the effect of forcing me to speak more "proper English", simply in order to be understood. But I can still revert to my original accent quite easily, depending on who I'm speaking to.
Carol also wrote "I think we've killed Dave's topic" - I'm not bothered if folk don't want to discuss dialects and languages, the differences between them, and the relation between them. I said what I had to say on the subject. My view is that the difference between a "dialect" and a "language" is not linguistic, but political. A language is a dialect with official backing. If nobody is able to argue with my thesis, that's perfectly okay with me.
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Holebender
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I have read that a language is a dialect with an army and a navy.
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azzuri
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You are right Dave, sometimes it matters not if someone wants to discuss a topic or not as long as you get your thoughts out and post them on the forum.
That's the beauty of this type of communication (the forum). Once it's written down, it's stored and recorded and people can read it for as long as the forum functions. We've almost 45,000 posts now, imagine all the data, figures, opinions etc. that are stored on the system now and are only a click away using the 'search' function?
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carol
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I've traced back old posts and thought OMG did I actually write that!
Carol
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Babygael
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Azzuri is th' best most democratic dude ever and he has BG"s support always!
Weel whit wis i supposed tae say?
I mean, he puts up wi' my  sh&^ an' ah loves him!
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mairead
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aye, BG,
And what would be the point of any forum if people were not allowed to post their thoughts and opinions. I actually found Dave Coull's post quite interesting.
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Anthropos
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | You could perhaps describe Dundonian as a dialect. But as for Scots, it is a language. Catalan is related to both Spanish and French, but it is a language. Why? Because the Catalan government says so. Norwegian and Swedish are mutually understandable when spoken slowly, yet Norwegian is not a dialect of Swedish. Why? Because the government of Norway, which severed its United Kingdom with Sweden in 1905, says so. There are dialects of German that are more different from standard German than Dutch is, and yet they are dialects and Dutch is a language. Why? Because the Dutch government says so. Scots is a language. Hoo come? Ciz we bluidy weel say so. |
Well why not say Dundonian is a language and it will be?
It is essentially a definitional issue, but in my opinion most of what passes for Scots is little more than English with a strong Scots accent. Grammatical differences are minor, and the distinct vocabulary is tiny.
The common written language of Scotland is English, this being the language of newspapers, textbooks, documents and internet forums (albeit with frequent poor spelling and grammar). It is the language which everyone, except illiterates, can read or write.
The common spoken language is what may be called Scots-English (like American English or Irish English), that is standard English, enriched or modified by a scattering or sprinkling of old Scots words and turns of phrase as well as local peculiarities of accent which can make this Scots-English sound more different from standard English than it actually is.
To quote from the Abertay guide above:
| Quote: | | It states: 'The Scottish accent is regional and can be stronger in some areas. It will normally take a couple of weeks for your ear to become attuned to the accent.' (my italics) |
and it goes on to say:
| Quote: | | 'We would advise people to watch Scottish films or listen to Radio Scotland online before they arrive so they can introduce themselves to the way people speak English here.'"(my italics again) |
That to me is evidence that it is a variety of English rather than a separate language. An outsider will have to become attuned to it, but if they know English that is all that will be required. If you didn't understand Russian nobody would advise you to listen carefully for a few weeks while you are in Moscow and you'd soon be fluent.
| Holebender wrote: | | have read that a language is a dialect with an army and a navy. |
Yes, you informed us of this last time the subject was raised so I shall repeat myself and point out again that Canada, the USA, New Zealand and Australia, all have armies and navy's, so why don't they have languages too?
I could also make a similar point about the Arabic language.
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Dave Coull
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Anthropos wrote (in response to me) "why not say Dundonian is a language and it will be?"
Well, for one thing, because, in my particular case, I have no desire to promote Dundonian. Now, some of my best friends are Dundonian, but, sorry folks, I'm just not very keen on the sound of that "Eh hed a peh fur meh teh in Dundeh" stuff. Much of what gets described as "Dundonian" is nothing of the sort, it is just Scots, of a type that is widely spoken throughout Angus, or the north east of Scotland, or indeed even wider than that. The ONLY thing that is peculiarly Dundonian, the "eh" sound, I personally do not find a delight to my lugs.
"it is a variety of English rather than a separate language" - Ach, ah dinna ken fa's echt ye, ye dinna ken fit ye're haverin aboot. Ah canna be trauchled wi ye, it's owre muckle o a scunner.
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RadgeJougal
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Don't feed the troll (DC)
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Dave Coull
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Since the poster who hides behind the false name Radge Jougal (which, incidentally, means "angry dog", or "mad dog") has accused me of being a "troll", it is worth examining what that accusation means. So I looked this word up in Wikipedia, and found :
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"In Internet terminology, a troll is someone who intentionally posts messages about sensitive topics constructed to cause controversy in an online community such as an online discussion forum or USENET groups in order to bait users into responding. They may also plant images and data on networks that others may find disturbing in order to cause confrontation.
More specifically a troll is an insult or accusation made against a poster. It would be highly unusual for any internet poster to claim the title of troll, rather a community member may try to deflate a post that is controversial or thought provoking by referring to it as a 'troll'. In usage troll is more of an insult like 'jerk'.
To call someone a troll is to say that any dispute over a post is not valid not because the issues raised are not valid, but to claim the intent of the poster invalidates the post. As a speech act the term troll is generally used as an ad hominem argument, attacking the poster rather than the content or issues of the post."
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The accusation is false for several reasons.
(1) While I certainly do post about issues which can be controversial, I never seek to be controversial for its own sake. That is to say, I do not express controversial views merely in order to be controversial. All of the views which I express really are my own considered views. I don't seek to shock anybody.
(2) The bit about "to bait users into responding" is false. I don't give a damn whether people respond to me or not. If my version of things is allowed to be stated without being challenged, that is perfectly okay with me. If it remains unchallenged, then my view will always be there, on the record, without challenge. That is true of this particular post, of course. But it is also okay with me if people _do_ respond. I really don't mind, either way.
(3) I haven't planted any images or data that others may find disturbing. In fact, I haven't planted any images at all.
Note the second part of the Wikipedia definition : to call somebody a "troll" is an insult. In fact, calling somebody a "troll" can itself be an example of "trolling", that is, an example of something posted deliberately "in order to bait users into responding". It could be said (though not by me, since I never use this term, except when quoting others) that, by responding to the accusation, I may be the one "feeding the troll" in this case. However, my view is that false accusations should be challenged, otherwise they can appear in the record to be the unchallenged truth.
Note also the third part of this Wikipedia definition, "To call someone a troll is to say that any dispute over a post is not valid because the issues raised are not valid". The poster who hides behind the false name Radge Jougal ("Angry Dog") is saying that it is not valid to discuss the meaning of dialect and language, the differences between these, and the reasons for these differences. "Angry Dog" is, in fact, seeking to supress free and open discussion.
Note the final part of the Wikipedia definition "As a speech act the term troll is generally used as an ad hominem argument, attacking the poster rather than the content or issues of the post". In other words, in footballing terms, it is going for the man, rather than the ball. It is quite possible that this post of mine will draw a response which is a deliberate foul, rather than a response to the actual content or the issues.
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carol
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Dave a troll brings back memories, one of my favourite playthings as a kid, don't think there's a resemblance with you though
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Holebender
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| Anthropos wrote: | The common spoken language is what may be called Scots-English (like American English or Irish English)...
| Holebender wrote: | | have read that a language is a dialect with an army and a navy. |
Yes, you informed us of this last time the subject was raised so I shall repeat myself and point out again that Canada, the USA, New Zealand and Australia, all have armies and navy's, so why don't they have languages too? |
Given that you point out the existence of American English, which I don't think anyone in the US would call a dialect of English, I think you have negated your own question. The USA, in particular, does have its own language with its own dictionary, standard textbooks, etc. and I suspect that it is far closer to English English than spoken Scots English is. Why is it a language and not a dialect? Because the USA has the biggest army and navy of them all!
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RadgeJougal
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | Radge Jougal (which, incidentally, means "angry dog", or "mad dog") |
Glad you worked that one out.
By the way, "Dave Coull" means "daft auld tumshie fae Brechin".
p.s. People don't humour him, he's a bit like that bad Monty Python sketch where someone goes in and says "is this the right room for an argument?" I'm only giving back as good as he gives.
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Dave Coull
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I wrote
"Note the final part of the Wikipedia definition 'As a speech act the term troll is generally used as an ad hominem argument, attacking the poster rather than the content or issues of the post'. In other words, in footballing terms, it is going for the man, rather than the ball. It is quite possible that this post of mine will draw a response which is a deliberate foul, rather than a response to the actual content or the issues."
Right on cue, Angry/Mad Dog proves that prediction of mine right by going for the man, rather than responding to the actual content or the issues : he states " 'Dave Coull' means 'daft auld tumshie fae Brechin' ".
"Radge Jougal" really does mean angry, or mad, dog, as the poster who deliberately chose to describe himself in this way has himself acknowledged. In contrast, whether I am a daft auld tumshie may be a matter of opinion, but "fae Brechin" is wrong. In all of my sixty six years, I have never once lived in Brechin. Bahrein, yes, Brechin, no. A few years in Montrose, yes, a couple of years in the Middle East, yes, twelve years in London, yes, eight years in Axminster, yes, ten years in Dundee, yes, even a month or so in San Francisco, yes, but not even one single night in Brechin.
Mad Dog's claim "I'm only giving back as good as he gives" - is also false.
I don't indulge in the kind of personal abuse practised by Mad Dog. I prefer to discuss genuine differences of opinion and perspective. His (yes, his) attack on me was totally unprovoked.
And speaking of genuine differences of opinion and perspective, I'm glad to see that, despite the attempted disruption, Anthropos and Holebender are continuing to discuss the issues of dialects and languages which I raised.
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carol
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Dave the poster 'Mad Dog' has clearly aimed in on you from the start. As for his or her skills in football terms, definitely running circles around you, needs to re-position his or her shots for more direct hits. No foul play so far
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Dave Coull
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Carol wrote "Dave the poster 'Mad Dog' has clearly aimed in on you from the start".
Well, maybe it's somebody with a grudge. Somebody with a grudge who prefers to snipe from cover rather than to reveal themselves. Somebody with a grudge who prefers to snipe from cover, and is quite incapable of making any worthwhile comment on the actual issues of dialect and language. I have complete contempt for anyone of such intellectual cowardice.
Carol also wrote "No foul play so far" - you obviously have a very peculiar idea of what does, and what does not, constitute foul play. In my view, going for the person rather than discussing the actual issues ALWAYS constitutes foul play. I am pretty sure the majority of posters here on the Our Scotland forum would agree with that.
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RadgeJougal
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Aye, Dave Coull has "never spent the night in Brechin" - that's why his postal address is Brechin. He lives less than ten miles down the road (so far...)
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Holebender
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My postal address is Aboyne, but I don't live there. The Post Office uses the name of a nearby "postal town" for us rural folk.
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Dave Coull
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"Radge Jougal" writes "Aye, Dave Coull has 'never spent the night in Brechin' " - that's right. Unlike some of the folk who hide behind false names, I never lie. I'm not "fae Brechin", and in fact I have never slept a single night within the boundaries of the City of Brechin in all my sixty six years. I have slept in Aberdeen, Aden, Axminster, Bahrein, Barcelona, Burnley, Calais, Corby, Dundee, Edinburgh, Ferryden, Glasgow, Llandanwg, London, Los Angeles, Manchester, Montrose, Newcastle, Oban, Paris, Port Glasgow, Prague, San Francisco, Scunthorpe, and Ullapool, but never Brechin.
"his postal address is Brechin" - irrelevant. I have a Dundee "DD" postcode, but I'm not "fae Dundee", and I don't live there nowadays either.
Radge Jougal called me a "troll", I quoted what Wikipedia had to say on that subject including "As a speech act the term troll is generally used as an ad hominem argument, attacking the poster rather than the content or issues of the post". The content and the issues of this thread are dialect and language. All we have had from Radge Jougal is an attempt to suppress discussion of the issues.
In totally predictable fashion, "Radge Jougal" then came back with more "ad hominem arguments attacking the poster rather than the content of the post".
Like I said, I have complete contempt for such behaviour.
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carol
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you having complete contempt for folk isn't new Dave, just like folk having complete contempt for you
As for foul play since when were you so innnocent?
As for the majority of posters on here, I don't see them posting in droves to defend you
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Dave Coull
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Carol wrote "you having complete contempt for folk isn't new Dave" - true. There is nothing new about me having contempt for folk whose practice is to shoot in the back from deep cover. Personally, I have always used my own name. I accept there may be exceptional circumstances where people have to use pseudonyms, but I consider using this as a way of making sneak attacks to be contemptible. The subject of this thread is "Dialect and Language". Radge Jougal has written absolutely nothing whatsoever on the topic, but instead has hijacked the thread as a way of making an unprovoked personal attack. I do not consider that there is anything clever or in any way admirable about such behaviour.
"when were you so innocent?" - statement of fact, I have never made any personal attack on somebody called Radge Jougal. Statement of fact, I seek to avoid personal abuse, and prefer instead to try to discuss the actual issues. As I see it, what we have here is an attempt to suppress discussion about Dialect and Language. I am against attempts to suppress discussion. A group of people, including most of the founders of Independence First, collectively resigned from I.F. because we were against attempts to suppress discussion. We didn't all hold the same opinions, we certainly wouldn't all have held the same opinions on the subject of Dialect and Language, but we were all against attempts to suppress discussion. Saying so is not a personal attack on anybody, it is a statement of fact that we resigned collectively on a matter of principle. In this particular case, Radge Jougal has attempted to suppress discussion.
"As for the majority of posters on here, I don't see them posting in droves to defend you" - totally irrelevant. The subject under discussion is "Dialect and Language", NOT Dave Coull. I never asked anybody to support me. I'm not a politician. I'm not a candidate for anything. I'm not seeking anybody's vote. What I said was that I am pretty sure the majority of posters here on the Our Scotland forum would agree that going for the person rather than discussing the actual issues always constitutes foul play.
There is no need for anybody to send messages of agreement, I will be pretty sure of this anyway. But, since YOU are apparently expressing disagreement, let's be quite clear about this. Are you really saying that you, Carol, do NOT consider that going for the person rather than discussing the actual issues constitutes foul play?
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carol
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| Quote: | | But, since YOU are apparently expressing disagreement, let's be quite clear about this. Are you really saying that you, Carol, do NOT consider that going for the person rather than discussing the actual issues constitutes foul play? |
you play dirty Dave, you kick folk when they're down, you destroy folks self worth, belittle others etc etc
you do not know if you've made a personal attack on RJ you do not know who the person is behind the pseudo
your path of destruction will be Determination's downfall, hell mend anyone who dares cross the 'great' Dave Coull
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Holebender
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While I abhor bringing disagreements from elsewhere into this forum may I just say, carol, that you are hardly in a position to be casting the first stone.
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carol
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Neil, Dave is always innocent in your eyes, easier for you to let him continue his behaviour rather than you do anything about it, was always one of your weaknesses
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Dave Coull
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Carol wrote "you do not know if you've made a personal attack on RJ" - I do know that I have NEVER sought to conduct, in personal terms, any discussions regarding such political matters as (for instance) campaigning against war and against nuclear weapons, campaigning against the poll tax, campaigning for a Scottish Parliament, or campaigning for a referendum on independence for Scotland. It is possible that other people may have seen disagreements in personal terms, but I never did.
Carol wrote "you do not know who the person is behind the pseudo" - no, I don't. But _IF_ it should turn out to be somebody who has had a disagreement with me in the past, and if they are seeking some sort of petty revenge by using this method of sniping with personal abuse from deep cover, then, like I said, I find such behaviour contemptible.
Carol also wrote "you play dirty Dave" - okay, so you have a personal dislike of me. What else is new? However, it is fact that, while you are always quite eager to discuss things in personal terms, my own preference is always for discussing things in terms of principles, politics, issues, or perspectives.
Look at the topic heading on this thread. It's about "Dialects and Languages". Now, of course, threads can develop. The one in the History section of Our Scotland about "Viscount Dundee: Scotland's Unsung Hero" may have had a topic heading which sounded like an argument for sainthood, but it devoloped into a wider examination of the role of Viscount Dundee, and of his comrade William of Orange, and, indeed, of the whole concept of monarchy. Like I said in that discussion, "Threads develop. As long as they don't just descend into personal trivia and abuse, there is no reason why threads should not be allowed to take a direction un-anticipated by the person who initiated the thread."
However, note that bit about AS LONG AS THEY DON'T JUST DESCEND INTO PERSONAL TRIVIA AND ABUSE.
Radge Jougal's very first contribution in this discussion had absolutely nothing at all to do with Dialects and Languages. It WAS just personal trivia and abuse. And you soon proved that you were only too willing to encourage him in taking the discussion to a lower level.
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Dave Coull
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Holebender wrote "may I just say, carol, that you are hardly in a position to be casting the first stone".
Damn it, I hate getting dragged into this personal stuff, but it is certainly true that Carol is in no position to cast the first stone.
Just a reminder of some of the comments that have been made about Carol here on this forum.
No, NOT by me, and not by Holebender either:
"you managed with your usual megalomaniac charm to alienate even more people"
"don't you understand that Carol sees herself as the best person to lead us to independence and always has to be the great 'I am'. The rest of us count for little in her eyes."
"a self important attention seeking egotist who is so full of bile she can't let go of the past"
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carol
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you are beneath contempt, if I remember correctly that was posts/ messages from Michael of Albany supporters who have it in for me anyway
a member of IF in the early days predicted you would destroy IF with your behaviour, how close to the truth they were
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Dave Coull
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Carol wrote "you are beneath contempt".
Thus displaying what some folk (not me, of course) have described as her "usual megalomaniac charm".
Some folk (not me, of course) have also claimed that "Carol sees herself as the best person to lead us to independence and always has to be the great 'I am'. The rest of us count for little in her eyes."
Of course I couldn't possibly comment, nor could I possibly comment on the view of some folk that Carol is "a self important attention seeking egotist who is so full of bile she can't let go of the past".
I really would prefer NOT to conduct discussion on the level of the trading of insults. For those who want a serious discussion about principles, policies, issues, and perspectives, see the topic "The Continuing Fallout From the Split in Independence First", in the "Scottish Politics and Independence" section of the Our Scotland forum.
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azzuri
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This sort of stuff is not for the public forum and should be conducted via either email or the private message function.
I've had enough of this.
Thread Locked.
If anyone actually want to discuss 'Dialects and Language', then please start a new thread.
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