Montenegro 'chooses independence'

azzuri · Montenegro 'chooses independence'

see - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5003220.stm

Montenegro 'chooses independence'

Montenegro has voted for independence from its union with Serbia, according to unofficial projections.

If confirmed, the vote would erase the last vestige of the former Yugoslavia.

Initial indications are that 56.3% of voters elected to secede from Serbia. The pro-independence bloc needs to win 55% of the vote to succeed.

The question of independence has deeply divided Montenegro, with its opponents arguing that it will damage economic, family and political ties with Serbia.

Predrag Bulatovic, the opposition leader who spearheaded the campaign against integration, said his camp would not admit defeat based on an "arbitrary estimate by a monitoring group".

"The results are not final until they are confirmed by the state referendum commission," he said.

Serb politicians, Orthodox church leaders and Montenegrins from the mountainous inland regions bordering Serbia broadly opposed secession.

However, ethnic Montenegrins and Albanians from the coastal area largely favoured independence, as did the Montenegrin Prime Minister, Milo Djukanovic.

He has argued that an independent Montenegro will have a stronger economy and will be a better candidate for admission into the European Union.

Record turn-out

Indications that the pro-independence bloc may have won the vote has prompted celebrations in the Montenegrin capital, Podgorica.

The tooting of car horns filled the city and youths were seen waving the red and gold flag of the old Montenegrin monarchy.

Guns and fireworks were let off in celebration.

Polls opened early on Sunday morning and turnout was said to have surpassed a record 85%.

Voters, some of them dressed in their Sunday best clothes, pondered the referendum question: "Do you want Montenegro to be an independent state with full international and legal legitimacy?"

Montenegro's loose union with Serbia was established in 2003, replacing what was left of the former Yugoslavia.

Both sides were given the option of electing to leave the union after three years.

The last time Montenegro was independent was nearly 90 years ago at the end of World War I, when it was absorbed into the newly-formed Yugoslavia.

Good for them - I'm going to have a rare drink tonight and toast it to Montenegro's prosperous future - if the 'Yes' vote is confirmed of course! Smile

Shadowman

Another irrelevant microstate steps onto the world stage. Woop de doo.

Then again Serbia was wrong to annex them after 1918, but such actions that took place nearly a century ago or more ago shouldn't matter to any rational person *cough* like the Highland Clearances *cough*

Lothian Sky

Superb, good for them. Just watch Montenegro go now, they have a lot going for them.

Better to be "irrelevant on the world stage" than not on it in the first place, don't you think? Rolling Eyes

Nice to see the Greater Serbia ideal being kicked into touch.

Did you hear the NO campaign's claims that Montenegro was too small, too poor, etc. That independence would split families up, etc?

Ring a bell anyone?

Highlander

Lothian Sky

You cant just take over land in another state because you have a polulation base, especially when they have been ethnically cleansing the indigenous people. Montenegro was annexed by the Serbs, before that it was an independent state. What did you think about Hitler's annexation of the Sudetenland, was that justified? Maybe an independent Scotland should annexe Corby and Nova Scotia! Or Blackpool!

Oops, it's yourself "Highlander", how stupid of me to attempt to give you a reasonable reply.. of course you must be sickened that a country has voted for independence. I'm sure you must be dying to see them fall flat on their face, right?

Highlander

Lothian Sky

Nope, I still dont get you.
Yugoslavia was a union much like the UK is now.
I'm not arguing for a greater Scotland, I just want independence. I don't advocate an annexation of Scottish populated areas in England or anywhere else. The Serbs on the other hand, wanted to expand their borders. The Republika Srpska is not in Serbia. Neither is Montenegro. Kosovo is, however, and the fact that it's now populated by ethnic Albanians doesn't give them the right to claim it.

I beleive it's fine for Scotland to take land "away from the UK"? Absolutely!
Whos land is it? If this is a union of states, as opposed to a colony, then it's Scotland's land.

SLG

Nationalists welcome Europe's newest nation

23rd May 2006

The SNP has congratulated the Balkan republic of Montenegro on its "peaceful and democratic" decision to break away from the rump of the former Yugoslavia and become an independent sovereign state.

Shadow Foreign Minister Angus Robertson urged Serbia, the last remaining republic from Yugoslavia not to have broken away, to respect the decision of the Montenegrin people.

Speaking after the official EU endorsement of the referendum, Robertson said:

"I would like to congratulate the people of Montenegro on their historic decision. Independence is the natural state for proud nations like Montenegro, and this peaceful process, which has now been endorsed by the European Union, demonstrates that the democratic will of a people will prevail.

"I sincerely hope that as Montenegro re-establishes itself as a sovereign nation it will continue to do so peacefully. Serbia must respect the democratic decision of the people of Montenegro," he said.

http://www.holyrood.com/nav/news/stories/story.asp?story=int72

Aventinian

Lothian Sky

Not even Berwick. I'll leave that kind of talk to people like Blackleaf.

I admit to an earlier mistake of mine, in saying Kosovo wasn't in Serbia. It obviously is, and a campaign for Kosovan independence isn't one I would support 100%. The KLA instigated and provoked the conflict in the hope they would prompt a backlash, and receive backing from the west. It worked, and the UK fell for it hook line and sinker.
How sick is that?

There are many causes worth dying for in modern Scotland. Independence isn't one of them.

Lothian Sky

kalashnikov

If the new state is a capitalist state then it will make no difference to the working class.

Neil

Serbia did not annex Montenegro. Montenegro happily joined Yugoslavia.

The degree to which the Montenegran "nation" really sought independence can be shown by the extent to which NATO/EU implicitly threatened them if they didn't vote as required, the separatist campiagn required enormous amounts of money from "sources unknown" & voting fraud, unreported EU "observers" & our corrupt media was required to get the 55.5% (a result statistically improbably close to the required 55% & the exit predictions) This is neither democracy nor nationalism it is a perversion of both.

see http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/aki052506.htm

Kalashnikov I think you will find that the 560,000 Serbs who used to live in what is now Croatia were affected by being brought under the rule of our (ex)-Nazi ally in the same way that working class Jews were affected by Hitler. With NATO's military assistance 250,000 are still missing.

It is worth noting that according to our strongest treaty promises & international law we are obligted (line 1, clause 1 , section 1 of the Helsinki Treaty) to "take no action against the territorial integrity or unity" of Yugoslavia - a fact which has naturally been reported by every single journalist & broadcaster who is not totally & copletely lying scum & has led to the resignation form government of every single politician who is not a completely corrupt murdering genocidal Nazi.

Fortunately for the obscene totally lying filth running the BBC, ITN our press & of course Parliament that includes absolutely none of them.

SLG

kalashnikov

Neil

Then your point is clearly wrong when the result is the racist genocide of workers (or indeed non-workers).

SLG

Ok, if you accept that life for the 'working class' in one capitalist society can be different from another, then why can you not accept that the people of Montenegro may see an worthwhile improvement in their lives whilst still existing within a capitalist state depending on how that capitalist state is administered. It may not be the degree of improvement that you think could be achieved under a different system altogether, but I think it's wrong to suggest that unless they disregard capitalism then the 'working class' can have no worthwhile improvement in their quality of life.

kalashnikov

SLG

I don't think anyone is saying that the problems for the Montenegran people are now solved. Nor do I think there is a way to "administer capitalism" perfectly. I was making the point that there are some ways to "administer capitalism" that are better than others.

IMO if it makes even a slight difference to the people of Montenegro then it is a good thing. I'd rather have a series of iterative improvements than wait for the holy grail, whatever it is, that will solve all problems.

Neil

A not previously mentioned advantage of independence, which the Italian courts have discovered, is that it allows the head of state to get away with smuggling billions of euros worth of cigarettes (& some rather nastier criminal activity)

RadgeJougal

"If confirmed, the vote would erase the last vestige of the former Yugoslavia."

No it wouldn't. There is a Hungarian region in the north of Serbia.

Neil

It is an area with a hungarian minority but a sizeable Serb majority. The Hungarians there have shown no interest in irredentism. Indeed the tennis player Monica Selous who is part of that minority publicly asserte her patriotism so openly that while playing in Germany a Croatian attempted to murder her put her in hospital for many months.

The German government showed their wishes by sentencing the would be assassin to 3 months.

kalashnikov

http://www.marxist.com/montenegro-capitalist-inferno030706.htm

Good article on the situation

Neil

Very good article. As a Marxist publication they don't like Milosevic's reformism but that is ok. The point about most Moslems being perfectly happy as part of Yugoslavia is well made.

Watch tonight's news to see if there is any mention of the release of Naser Oric the perpetrater of the real genocide at Srebrenica. I will bet heavily that the BBC/ITN Nazis won't report it.

LAz

I am from this region and I have to say that this is completely ridiculous.

Montenegrins are Serbs and they always will be Serbs.

Heck, the only reason why their referendum barely passed was because of fraud.

Here...

Neil

Yugoslavia was a multi-ethnic country before we destroyed it. Now the only multi-ethnic area is Serbia - the rest being western controlled mini-states run by (ex-)Nazis.

A triumph for the new world order.

Montenegro

Montenegro

Neil

If as you imply you DO hate Serbs & Orthodox then I very much doubt if you are Montenegrin (though it is conceivable you are an Albanian immigrant there). The general Montenegrin attitude was that they were tougher, more Orthodox, more Serbian & more likely to steal sheep than the Serbs (pretty much like the Highland Jacobite clans attitude to supporting the House of Stewart).

The Montenegran king went over the the German side in WW1 so his treatment is no more proof of the Serbs forcing Montenegro into Yugolsavia than the imprisonment of Petain is proof that the French didn't want the Allied Liberation in WW2.

Montenegro

Montenegro

Neil

Montenegro

Dave Coull

Without in any way endorsing what the poster "Montenegro" says (there are some things he says with which I would definitely disagree), I see no reason to dispute that he is telling the truth as he sees it.

"Montenegro" wrote "I am not Albanian and I cant give you better proof for this than my full name: Petar Milikić, and I am from Vasojević clan from Lijeva Rijeka, near Kolašin".

Full name, family connections, the name of a village, and of the larger town which it is near. That is quite a lot of personal detail for anybody to put on a public site. In fact, I can think of only one other person who has given as much personal detail as this, here on this Our Scotland forum, and that was me.

Despite that, Neil wrote "I'm afraid I do not think you are what you claim to be".

You make a habit of questioning the truthfulness of those who have the sheer effrontery to express any disagreement with you. I don't know a lot about Montenegro, but there are other folk on here (including yourself) who claim to know more. Petar Milikić's statements that he is not Albanian, not Muslim, that he is of the same Orthodox Christian religion as the Serbs, and that he is from the Vasojević clan, from Lijeva Rijeka, near Kolašin, in Montenegro, these could all be checked out. Until such time as you check this out, or somebody else checks it out, and come up with some actual evidence that there is anything untruthful about it, Petar's claim is at least as believable as your own claim that you are Neil from Glasgow.

Montenegro

Neil

Montenegro

Neil

Dave Coull

Montenegro/Petar wrote "After all, I did not come here to argue wheter Montenegrins are Serbs or not.......I came here to learn little more about Scotland and its fight for independence".

Some Scots are in favour of independence, some are not. Nearly all of us who are in favour of independence think it can be achieved without violence.

"This division between Serbs and Montenegrins is political. You have brothers from same mother and father who has different ethnicity. There are many such examples. Those who were in favor of independence tend to call themself Montenegrins, and those who were against call Serbs, althought there is no real difference."

You can find the same thing here in Scotland, members of the same family who identify differently. However, in one way it is more complicated. Instead of a clear division, there is a gradual range of identity, and it does not always follow clear political lines.

Many people in Scotland say that they are both Scottish and British. Most of them say that they feel more Scottish than British, but still, a little bit British. A minority of people identify themselves as Scottish and not British at all, and another minority identify themselves as British and not Scottish.

You can get brothers from the same family with one saying he is Scottish, and another saying he is both Scottish and British. However, you are not likely to get, within the same family, a brother who says he is Scottish and not British at all, and another brother who says he is British and not Scottish at all.

The vast majority of people in Scotland do identify as Scots, although some of them also identify as British. Since the vast majority of people in Scotland do identify as Scots, even those in a minority are willing to accept decisions made by the Scottish people as a whole. If we have a referendum on independence, the great majority of those on the "losing" side in that referendum will accept the decision of the Scots as a whole.

Although there are some similarities between Montenegro and Scotland, I think there are many differences.

The clan system which was at one time important in Scotland (although not necessarily in every part of Scotland) is nowadays largely sentimentality for tourists rather than a daily reality for ordinary people. The clan system was already starting to die out long before the defeat of the Jacobite rebellion of 1745, and clan chiefs became integrated into the British ruling class, evicting their own clans folk for profit, and sending their sons to British ruling class schools, pretty much finished it off.

I suspect from what you say that a clan system remains more important in the Montenegrin highlands than it is in the Scottish highlands.

One very important difference is that the border between Scotland and England was settled long ago, and, despite these countries being joined together as the United Kingdom, it has continued all along as a real boundary, with people on both sides of it recognising it as such. I think the boundaries between Montenegro and Serbia, between Montenegro and Bosnia, between Montenegro and Albania, between Montenegro and the new state of Kosovo, may be less clearly "settled" than the boundary between Scotland and England.

Another very significant difference is that we have only one land boundary, that with England. Although, at present, Northern Ireland and Scotland are both parts of the British state, they are clearly distinct. There are people in the north east of Ireland who identify themselves with Scotland, and there are people in Scotland who identify themselves with Ireland, but the sixteen miles of sea which separate Scotland from Northern Ireland mean that no supporter of an independent Scotland has ever suggested a Scottish claim to any part of Ireland, and no supporter of Irish independence has ever suggested an Irish claim to any part of Scotland.

Also, although there are plenty of people who want Scotland to remain in political Union with England, nobody suggests that Scotland, or any part of it, should become part of England.

In my opinion, the people of the Borders area of Scotland will vote much the same way as the rest of Scotland, when we have our referendum. And those who are in the minority in that referendum will accept the decision of the Scottish people as a whole.