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Niall
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Ten Good reasons for IndependenceA Chairadean mhath.
I have read the various opinions of Trolls and detracters on this forum and would like to reprint a leaflet I wrote for Siol-nan-gaidheal last year. I list the ten most common questions or objections raised by brainwashed unionists in Scotland:
Question 1:
Everyone tells us that Scotland is too poor to stand on its own feet and we will always require an English subsidy.
Fact Scotland has 8.6% of the UK population yet raises 10.41% of all UK tax revenues. (Source Treasury red Book 2002) Go figure it out for yourself. Exactly who is subsidising who?
Question 2.
Scotland could not survive without the Barnet formula handout from England.
The Barnett Formula is nothing more than a device which gives Scotland some of its own pocket money out of Scotlands pay packet which is taken by England. In 2002, Scotland contributed £42.7Billions to the UK Exchequer and received £18.1 Billions doled back in return via Barnet. It would be a much better idea to keep the £42.7 Billions as an Independent Country.
Question 3.
North sea oil is running out fast and soon there will be nothing left......
According to Professor Alex Kemp, of Petroleum Economics at the University of Aberdeen. North Sea Oil and Gas production will still be present in 2050. There is as much known oil left yet to be extracted than has already been exploited
Question 4.
Britain is becoming a net importer of oil and natural gas.
False. Scotland is a net exporter of Oil and Gas. Fact: An independent Scotland with 17.5% of Europes Oil reserves will be a net exporter of oil and gas for at least 25 years more years. Properly invested the proceeds will make Scotland the second richest nation on earth for its size. There will be huge social and economic benefits for all Scotlands Citizens and public services.
Question 5.
Scotland is too poor and small to afford to defend itself.
Why not? Switzerland uses just 1% of its GDP to provide a modern efficient Army and Air force. Norway spends 1.9% and can defend itself adequately. The UK spends 2.32% of GDP on its armed forces (Including Trident) Scotland can afford 1.6% of its GDP and still have modern professional armed forces half the size of the present UK.
Question 6.
We have a huge balance of payments problem, Scotland cannot possibly hope to pay her way.
False. The UK as a whole has Balance of Payments deficit of £35 Billions per annum. Scotland however actually contributes a Surplus of £2.3Billions.
Question 7.
Scotland could not compete against the mighty economic muscle of England.
Untrue. Denmark has an economic superpower to her south (Germany) and she does very well indeed. Switzerland is surrounded by three great economic superpowers, France, Italy, and Germany, yet she is the most prosperous nation in Europe. Singapore is a tiny island of 4 million people right next door to Indonesia with a population if 201 Millions yet is the powerhouse driving the SE Asian economy. Scotland has more than enough expertise to compete and prosper.
Question 8.
Scotland is too far away from the centre of Europe to prosper.
Iceland with a population of only 400,000, is situated far to the north by the arctic circle yet has the third highest standard of living in Europe.
Question 9.
The City ofLondon is too powerful a financial centre for Scotland to compete against.
Scotland is one of Europe’s top ten financial centres, supporting employment for in the region of 200,000 people. Financial Services accounts for 8% of Scotland’s GDP and generates more than £20 bn annually for the economy. Scotland is reckoned to be the 12th leading global financial centre.
Question 10.
Scotland does not have the financial expertise to run its own affairs.
Who says so. Its strange that the late British Empire relied on a preponderence of Scots to run their affairs. Scots bankers, economists and Accountants (reckoned to be the best in their fields) are to be found at all levels of Government. Therefore the expertise is there.
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Come on now debate and refute these figures if you can........
'S Mise le meas
Niall.
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Shadowman
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Re: Ten Good reasons for Independence
Whether these figures are true or not is irrelevant to me, because the wealth of an independent Scotland would not be significantly different to that today. Besides, since when should an issue as important as national sovereignty be decided by economic benefit?
I object to independence on a more general level. The Union between Scotland and England has produced one of the world's great nations, with advantages for both Scots and English. Although the two countries are bound together politically, no one is ever going to pretend that the Scots are Englishmen! Scotland has still managed to maintain an identifiable culture, and already possesses many badges of statehood such as national sports teams and bank notes.
Especially now that it has a devolved Parliament, Scotland has great political and cultural autonomy whilst still being able to take advantage of being part of the UK. Considering that both sides can find satisfaction in this arrangement, why should there be a change?
I also that the way the SNP conducts itself shows that Scots nationalism is not a developed force, and that simple xenophobia is the basis for many members. The way the SNP describes independence as a panacea for all ills, whether it be the amalgamation of regiments or altering fishing quotas shows that Scots nationalism is a reactionary force, and not nearly as progressive as its proponenets claim.
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Aventinian
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Questions one and two are fundamentally wrong. No one is saying that Scotland couldn’t survive independently. Like I say, Ethiopia survives with it on a fraction of our GDP.
Question three is simplistic. The oil and natural gas reserves that remain have not been exploited yet for a good reason – they are harder to reach and most expensive to get to. The world would be fine for oil if we were willing to spend billions drilling through north Canadian permafrost. But we’re not. It’s not economically viable.
Question four is simply robbing from Peter to give to Paul. Ie, taking the proceeds of oil
Question five assumes peace in Europe for the foreseeable future. Neither Norway or Switzerland’s armies could fight anything. Switzerland may have something of a chance of fending off occupation due to its natural position and its militia. The former we don’t have and the latter seems impossible due to the rather infuriating knee-jerk reactions to a few gun tragedies.
Question six – Gordon Brown does mismanage our economy. Public spending in the UK should be lowered by a great deal. This contribution surplus is based on very dodgy figures – it should be noted you’ll equally get the English nationalist saying that Scotland is subsidised to the tune of about £3 billion a year. Personally, I think both are irrelevant, can never be accurately measures and if they could, I would not be depending on an organisation like the SnG or EDP to do it for me.
Questions seven to nine just seem to be nonsense used to fill up the obligatory ‘ten points’.
And finally, question ten is sheer b.s. No one is saying that, although Scotland is more inclined to Socialism. I’m sure it’ll be well managed though… even if it is a total disaster.
Interestingly enough, Shadowman makes some good points. The number of grassroots Nationalists I have heard making comments about the English that'd make an IRA member blush is rather incredible. Not to mention the Labour provost in a local authority area I once lived in had both tyres slashed and windows bricked... and guess what was tied around that brick: an SNP leaflet.
For all the swaveness and pseudo-sophistication of the high ranks of the SNP, they are disguising support by a great deal of undesirables who would be kicked out of most political parties.
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SLG
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Re: Ten Good reasons for Independence | Shadowman wrote: | Whether these figures are true or not is irrelevant to me, because the wealth of an independent Scotland would not be significantly different to that today. Besides, since when should an issue as important as national sovereignty be decided by economic benefit?
I object to independence on a more general level. The Union between Scotland and England has produced one of the world's great nations, with advantages for both Scots and English. Although the two countries are bound together politically, no one is ever going to pretend that the Scots are Englishmen! Scotland has still managed to maintain an identifiable culture, and already possesses many badges of statehood such as national sports teams and bank notes. |
That makes a nice change. Most of the time the Unionist argument is based on economic terms. IMO independence will create two or three of the worlds great nations, with advantages for both Scots and English. I don't believe that Great Britain is great. Scotland has retain some level of culture and independent institutions despite the Union, not because of it.
| Shadowman wrote: | | Especially now that it has a devolved Parliament, Scotland has great political and cultural autonomy whilst still being able to take advantage of being part of the UK. Considering that both sides can find satisfaction in this arrangement, why should there be a change? |
There should be a change because devolution is so weak, it fails to address the key problems that led to devolution in the first place. The independence movement is NOT isolationist. Scotland can have a very healthy relationship with the rest-of-the-UK that can benefit all parties whilst also repatriating more of the powers required to govern herself. If you can accept devolution and cultural autonomy, do you not think that it might be appropriate for Holyrood to have control over broadcasting.
| Shadowman wrote: | | I also that the way the SNP conducts itself shows that Scots nationalism is not a developed force, and that simple xenophobia is the basis for many members. The way the SNP describes independence as a panacea for all ills, whether it be the amalgamation of regiments or altering fishing quotas shows that Scots nationalism is a reactionary force, and not nearly as progressive as its proponenets claim. |
Do you have any examples of this? I'm a member of the SNP and in my branch I can't think of a single member who I would describe as xenophobic. In fact I am probably the most 'fundamentalist' of the members. The SNP doesn't say that independence in itself will cure all ills. They say that independence will allow a much more focussed political environment in which we are more likely to be able to tackle those ills. My support for independence is completely progressive. If it was clear that the people of Scotland were better off in the Union, the SNP would disappear over night.
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SLG
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Hopefully Niall will answer your points on the financial and oil matters.
| Aventinian wrote: | | Question five assumes peace in Europe for the foreseeable future. Neither Norway or Switzerland’s armies could fight anything. Switzerland may have something of a chance of fending off occupation due to its natural position and its militia. The former we don’t have and the latter seems impossible due to the rather infuriating knee-jerk reactions to a few gun tragedies. |
You are assuming that there will be no cooperation between Scotland and whatever other states emerge on the Island. Of course there will. There will be a common defence strategy that will be agreed that will be just as adequate as the present UK defence provisions.
| Aventinian wrote: | | And finally, question ten is sheer b.s. No one is saying that, although Scotland is more inclined to Socialism. I’m sure it’ll be well managed though… even if it is a total disaster. |
What's your basis for saying Scotland is more inclined toward socialism?
| Aventinian wrote: | | Interestingly enough, Shadowman makes some good points. The number of grassroots Nationalists I have heard making comments about the English that'd make an IRA member blush is rather incredible. Not to mention the Labour provost in a local authority area I once lived in had both tyres slashed and windows bricked... and guess what was tied around that brick: an SNP leaflet. |
Are you really saying that you think the Scottish nationalist movement is more virulent than that of the IRA!? Like I said above, I'm a member of the SNP and have never heard anything like that at all. Do you have a reference to an article about the Labour provost getting his windows smashed in?
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Niall
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Aventian a charaid.
Seeing as you choose to mock your own unionist propaganda, I shall attempt to explain it in simple terms that even a toddler can understand.
I Wrote: | Quote: | Question 1:
Everyone tells us that Scotland is too poor to stand on its own feet and we will always require an English subsidy.
Fact Scotland has 8.6% of the UK population yet raises 10.41% of all UK tax revenues. (Source Treasury red Book 2002) Go figure it out for yourself. Exactly who is subsidising who?
Question 2.
Scotland could not survive without the Barnet formula handout from England.
The Barnett Formula is nothing more than a device which gives Scotland some of its own pocket money out of Scotlands pay packet which is taken by England. In 2002, Scotland contributed £42.7Billions to the UK Exchequer and received £18.1 Billions doled back in return via Barnet. It would be a much better idea to keep the £42.7 Billions as an Independent Country. |
You responded with: | Quote: | | Questions one and two are fundamentally wrong. No one is saying that Scotland couldna survive independently. Like I say, Ethiopia survives with it on a fraction of our GDP. |
However for three hundred years, the unionists have rammed this propaganda down Scottish throats. Many Scots are now so brainwashed by this bullshit that thay actually believe it. If we are to acheive Independence we must prove the case for financial stabilty and shoot the Unionist lies down in flames. Most people vote in favour of their wallets which is why the utopian vision of a Socialist paradise is only that a vision. Socialism is a failed philosophy and Scotland must seek a middle way between the two extremes, Socialism and tyrannical Capitalism.
I wrote: | Quote: | Question 3.
North sea oil is running out fast and soon there will be nothing left......
According to Professor Alex Kemp, of Petroleum Economics at the University of Aberdeen. North Sea Oil and Gas production will still be present in 2050. There is as much known oil left yet to be extracted than has already been exploited |
You responded with: | Quote: | | Question three is simplistic. The oil and natural gas reserves that remain have not been exploited yet for a good reason they are harder to reach and most expensive to get to. The world would be fine for oil if we were willing to spend billions drilling through north Canadian permafrost. But we're not. It's not economically viable. |
The fields are viable with the correct taxation regime. At the moment Scottish oil fields are seen as tax cash cows to the detriment of investment. But then again your beloved British State knows best does it not? Imagine what an Independent Scotland could do? It certainly would be much better than the uncaring and unthinking UK treasury.
I wrote: | Quote: | Question 4.
Britain is becoming a net importer of oil and natural gas.
False. Scotland is a net exporter of Oil and Gas. Fact: An independent Scotland with 17.5% of Europes Oil reserves will be a net exporter of oil and gas for at least 25 years more years. Properly invested the proceeds will make Scotland the second richest nation on earth for its size. There will be huge social and economic benefits for all Scotlands Citizens and public services. |
You responded with: | Quote: | | Question four is simply robbing from Peter to give to Paul. Ie, taking the proceeds of oil |
How the hell do you explain what is happening now? Scotland is being robbed blind to fund the SE of England. How much of the £190 Billions taken by the treasury have found their way north? Just under £2 Billions since 1975. Scotland fair share would have been £17 Billions!
I Wrote | Quote: | Question 5.
Scotland is too poor and small to afford to defend itself.
Why not? Switzerland uses just 1% of its GDP to provide a modern efficient Army and Air force. Norway spends 1.9% and can defend itself adequately. The UK spends 2.32% of GDP on its armed forces (Including Trident) Scotland can afford 1.6% of its GDP and still have modern professional armed forces half the size of the present UK. |
You responded with: | Quote: | | Question five assumes peace in Europe for the foreseeable future. Neither Norway or Switzerland's armies could fight anything. Switzerland may have something of a chance of fending off occupation due to its natural position and its militia. The former we don't have and the latter seems impossible due to the rather infuriating knee-jerk reactions to a few gun tragedies. |
Hitler wanted to invade Switzerland but his generals managed to pursuade him that the cost would be too high. The Americans igot involved in Vietnam but had to flee ignominiously from the fighting spirit of an army of lightly armed 'Gooks.' The same thing is happening in Iraq. They got chucked out of Lebanon and Somalia.
Scotland with a militia organised on Swiss lines could cause intolerable casualties on an army of occupation. I served as an officer in the RAF Regiment and know what I am talking about. Tanks, artillery and air power is helpless in the face of a single sniper and the hidden roadside bomb. The IRA in all its active service units never fielded more than 300 volunteers at a time yet they kept the british Army of over 30,000 on the back foot.
I wrote: | Quote: | Question 6.
We have a huge balance of payments problem, Scotland cannot possibly hope to pay her way.
False. The UK as a whole has Balance of Payments deficit of £35 Billions per annum. Scotland however actually contributes a Surplus of £2.3Billions. |
You responded with: | Quote: | | Question six Gordon Brown does mismanage our economy. Public spending in the UK should be lowered by a great deal. This contribution surplus is based on very dodgy figures it should be noted you'll equally get the English nationalist saying that Scotland is subsidised to the tune of about £3 billion a year. Personally, I think both are irrelevant, can never be accurately measures and if they could, I would not be depending on an organisation like the SnG or EDP to do it for me. |
I am an Accountant in public practise for 31 years and I do have access to the treasury red book figures. As you probably know Scotland is classed as a region in the UK for EU purposes and the information is readily available. The Unionists use the UK deficit to scare Scotland when in fact their argument is a tissue of lies. That however should not surprise you as westminster is staffed with congenital liars from the Prime Minister downwards.
I wrote: | Quote: | Question 7.
Scotland could not compete against the mighty economic muscle of England.
Untrue. Denmark has an economic superpower to her south (Germany) and she does very well indeed. Switzerland is surrounded by three great economic superpowers, France, Italy, and Germany, yet she is the most prosperous nation in Europe. Singapore is a tiny island of 4 million people right next door to Indonesia with a population if 201 Millions yet is the powerhouse driving the SE Asian economy. Scotland has more than enough expertise to compete and prosper.
Question 8.
Scotland is too far away from the centre of Europe to prosper.
Iceland with a population of only 400,000, is situated far to the north by the arctic circle yet has the third highest standard of living in Europe.
Question 9.
The City ofLondon is too powerful a financial centre for Scotland to compete against.
Scotland is one of Europe's top ten financial centres, supporting employment for in the region of 200,000 people. Financial Services accounts for 8% of Scotland’s GDP and generates more than £20 bn annually for the economy. Scotland is reckoned to be the 12th leading global financial centre. |
You responded with: | Quote: | | Questions seven to nine just seem to be nonsense used to fill up the obligatory ten points. |
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Not fillers or nonesense. These are frequently quoted by Unionist polititicians every week. The Daily Rectum recently ran a series of small articles on these very subjects. It is essential that our people should know the truth so they can make up their own minds.
I Wrote: | Quote: | Question 10.
Scotland does not have the financial expertise to run its own affairs.
Who says so. Its strange that the late British Empire relied on a preponderence of Scots to run their affairs. Scots bankers, economists and Accountants (reckoned to be the best in their fields) are to be found at all levels of Government. Therefore the expertise is there. |
You responded with: | Quote: | | And finally, question ten is sheer b.s. No one is saying that, although Scotland is more inclined to Socialism. I'm sure it'll be well managed though even if it is a total disaster |
Yet I hear this refrain from the Unionists every week, although I agree with you on Socialism, the innate common sense of the Scottish people will prevent them from electing an extreme government. However I would prefer it if mistakes are made they are our mistakes not Westminsters.
Finally Independenc is coming and it will soon become unstoppable hence the paniced propaganda. You had better get used to the Idea now and be prepared to make it work as I shall be doing.
'S Mise le meas
Niall.
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wallacesclaymore
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| Niall wrote: | Aventian a charaid.
Seeing as you choose to mock your own unionist propaganda, I shall attempt to explain it in simple terms that even a toddler can understand.
I Wrote: | Quote: | Question 1:
Everyone tells us that Scotland is too poor to stand on its own feet and we will always require an English subsidy.
Fact Scotland has 8.6% of the UK population yet raises 10.41% of all UK tax revenues. (Source Treasury red Book 2002) Go figure it out for yourself. Exactly who is subsidising who?
Question 2.
Scotland could not survive without the Barnet formula handout from England.
The Barnett Formula is nothing more than a device which gives Scotland some of its own pocket money out of Scotlands pay packet which is taken by England. In 2002, Scotland contributed £42.7Billions to the UK Exchequer and received £18.1 Billions doled back in return via Barnet. It would be a much better idea to keep the £42.7 Billions as an Independent Country. |
You responded with: | Quote: | | Questions one and two are fundamentally wrong. No one is saying that Scotland couldna survive independently. Like I say, Ethiopia survives with it on a fraction of our GDP. |
However for three hundred years, the unionists have rammed this propaganda down Scottish throats. Many Scots are now so brainwashed by this bullshit that thay actually believe it. If we are to acheive Independence we must prove the case for financial stabilty and shoot the Unionist lies down in flames. Most people vote in favour of their wallets which is why the utopian vision of a Socialist paradise is only that a vision. Socialism is a failed philosophy and Scotland must seek a middle way between the two extremes, Socialism and tyrannical Capitalism.
I wrote: | Quote: | Question 3.
North sea oil is running out fast and soon there will be nothing left......
According to Professor Alex Kemp, of Petroleum Economics at the University of Aberdeen. North Sea Oil and Gas production will still be present in 2050. There is as much known oil left yet to be extracted than has already been exploited |
You responded with: | Quote: | | Question three is simplistic. The oil and natural gas reserves that remain have not been exploited yet for a good reason they are harder to reach and most expensive to get to. The world would be fine for oil if we were willing to spend billions drilling through north Canadian permafrost. But we're not. It's not economically viable. |
The fields are viable with the correct taxation regime. At the moment Scottish oil fields are seen as tax cash cows to the detriment of investment. But then again your beloved British State knows best does it not? Imagine what an Independent Scotland could do? It certainly would be much better than the uncaring and unthinking UK treasury.
I wrote: | Quote: | Question 4.
Britain is becoming a net importer of oil and natural gas.
False. Scotland is a net exporter of Oil and Gas. Fact: An independent Scotland with 17.5% of Europes Oil reserves will be a net exporter of oil and gas for at least 25 years more years. Properly invested the proceeds will make Scotland the second richest nation on earth for its size. There will be huge social and economic benefits for all Scotlands Citizens and public services. |
You responded with: | Quote: | | Question four is simply robbing from Peter to give to Paul. Ie, taking the proceeds of oil |
How the hell do you explain what is happening now? Scotland is being robbed blind to fund the SE of England. How much of the £190 Billions taken by the treasury have found their way north? Just under £2 Billions since 1975. Scotland fair share would have been £17 Billions!
I Wrote | Quote: | Question 5.
Scotland is too poor and small to afford to defend itself.
Why not? Switzerland uses just 1% of its GDP to provide a modern efficient Army and Air force. Norway spends 1.9% and can defend itself adequately. The UK spends 2.32% of GDP on its armed forces (Including Trident) Scotland can afford 1.6% of its GDP and still have modern professional armed forces half the size of the present UK. |
You responded with: | Quote: | | Question five assumes peace in Europe for the foreseeable future. Neither Norway or Switzerland's armies could fight anything. Switzerland may have something of a chance of fending off occupation due to its natural position and its militia. The former we don't have and the latter seems impossible due to the rather infuriating knee-jerk reactions to a few gun tragedies. |
Hitler wanted to invade Switzerland but his generals managed to pursuade him that the cost would be too high. The Americans igot involved in Vietnam but had to flee ignominiously from the fighting spirit of an army of lightly armed 'Gooks.' The same thing is happening in Iraq. They got chucked out of Lebanon and Somalia.
Scotland with a militia organised on Swiss lines could cause intolerable casualties on an army of occupation. I served as an officer in the RAF Regiment and know what I am talking about. Tanks, artillery and air power is helpless in the face of a single sniper and the hidden roadside bomb. The IRA in all its active service units never fielded more than 300 volunteers at a time yet they kept the british Army of over 30,000 on the back foot.
I wrote: | Quote: | Question 6.
We have a huge balance of payments problem, Scotland cannot possibly hope to pay her way.
False. The UK as a whole has Balance of Payments deficit of £35 Billions per annum. Scotland however actually contributes a Surplus of £2.3Billions. |
You responded with: | Quote: | | Question six Gordon Brown does mismanage our economy. Public spending in the UK should be lowered by a great deal. This contribution surplus is based on very dodgy figures it should be noted you'll equally get the English nationalist saying that Scotland is subsidised to the tune of about £3 billion a year. Personally, I think both are irrelevant, can never be accurately measures and if they could, I would not be depending on an organisation like the SnG or EDP to do it for me. |
I am an Accountant in public practise for 31 years and I do have access to the treasury red book figures. As you probably know Scotland is classed as a region in the UK for EU purposes and the information is readily available. The Unionists use the UK deficit to scare Scotland when in fact their argument is a tissue of lies. That however should not surprise you as westminster is staffed with congenital liars from the Prime Minister downwards.
I wrote: | Quote: | Question 7.
Scotland could not compete against the mighty economic muscle of England.
Untrue. Denmark has an economic superpower to her south (Germany) and she does very well indeed. Switzerland is surrounded by three great economic superpowers, France, Italy, and Germany, yet she is the most prosperous nation in Europe. Singapore is a tiny island of 4 million people right next door to Indonesia with a population if 201 Millions yet is the powerhouse driving the SE Asian economy. Scotland has more than enough expertise to compete and prosper.
Question 8.
Scotland is too far away from the centre of Europe to prosper.
Iceland with a population of only 400,000, is situated far to the north by the arctic circle yet has the third highest standard of living in Europe.
Question 9.
The City ofLondon is too powerful a financial centre for Scotland to compete against.
Scotland is one of Europe's top ten financial centres, supporting employment for in the region of 200,000 people. Financial Services accounts for 8% of Scotland’s GDP and generates more than £20 bn annually for the economy. Scotland is reckoned to be the 12th leading global financial centre. |
You responded with: | Quote: | | Questions seven to nine just seem to be nonsense used to fill up the obligatory ten points. |
.
Not fillers or nonesense. These are frequently quoted by Unionist polititicians every week. The Daily Rectum recently ran a series of small articles on these very subjects. It is essential that our people should know the truth so they can make up their own minds.
I Wrote: | Quote: | Question 10.
Scotland does not have the financial expertise to run its own affairs.
Who says so. Its strange that the late British Empire relied on a preponderence of Scots to run their affairs. Scots bankers, economists and Accountants (reckoned to be the best in their fields) are to be found at all levels of Government. Therefore the expertise is there. |
You responded with: | Quote: | | And finally, question ten is sheer b.s. No one is saying that, although Scotland is more inclined to Socialism. I'm sure it'll be well managed though even if it is a total disaster |
Yet I hear this refrain from the Unionists every week, although I agree with you on Socialism, the innate common sense of the Scottish people will prevent them from electing an extreme government. However I would prefer it if mistakes are made they are our mistakes not Westminsters.
Finally Independenc is coming and it will soon become unstoppable hence the paniced propaganda. You had better get used to the Idea now and be prepared to make it work as I shall be doing.
'S Mise le meas
Niall. |
And for my money, the points made here by Niall do in fact make coherent, and perfect sense.
Aventinian, unlike the usual rhetoric of "thats all crap, lies and bullshit" you ordanarily come out with, via implied and veilled words, this does make sense and if one were an impartial viewer merely peering in for a wee look, I'm pretty certain it would seem this way too.
The truth is, you are a unionist. You believe in that and that is the ONLY thing you believe. Your mind is closed and you have no real interest in discussing the mere notion of independence.
I refer to some points made in another post you made about human nature etc...for YEARS (HUNDREDS, THOUSANDS) we were unevolved. We went round clubbing each other to death and grunting...then we learned to make swords and killed eachother this way...nowadays, we dont. WE EVOLVED..things CHANGED....somewhere along the line, in the last 300 years, things have changed. And I believe, the very idea of independence should be PROPERLY and OPENLY investigated and thrashed out.
This is known as entertaining an idea that could be POSSIBLE...something you seem sadly incapable of doing.
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Aventinian
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| Niall wrote: | | However for three hundred years, the unionists have rammed this propaganda down Scottish throats. Many Scots are now so brainwashed by this bullshit that thay actually believe it. If we are to acheive Independence we must prove the case for financial stabilty and shoot the Unionist lies down in flames. Most people vote in favour of their wallets which is why the utopian vision of a Socialist paradise is only that a vision. Socialism is a failed philosophy and Scotland must seek a middle way between the two extremes, Socialism and tyrannical Capitalism. |
I don't believe you'll find many 'Unionists' (I remind you that Unionism is not actually a movement and simply an objection to Nationalism).
As you have correctly identified, even the UK makes a loss on on many occasions and does have debts. And as I pointed out, Scottish independence would not be impossible simply because of economic factors. No one is saying that and thus your 'unionist argument' was not a unionist argument at all, it was a convenient straw man made by yourself to shoot down.
| Quote: | | The fields are viable with the correct taxation regime. At the moment Scottish oil fields are seen as tax cash cows to the detriment of investment. But then again your beloved British State knows best does it not? Imagine what an Independent Scotland could do? It certainly would be much better than the uncaring and unthinking UK treasury. |
Personification of the UK treasury? That's the way think if you're looking to see the inside of one of the Windsor Group of Relaxing Health Spas...
If you think the money from the oil reserves are not being exploited fully, I strongly advise you make your case for what should be done better and send it to Gordon Brown. No doubt he'll be very interested as he does seem to be pulling out all the stops to get money these days.
I certainly don't think things could be handled better by an inexperienced Scottish government.
| Quote: | | How the hell do you explain what is happening now? Scotland is being robbed blind to fund the SE of England. How much of the £190 Billions taken by the treasury have found their way north? Just under £2 Billions since 1975. Scotland fair share would have been £17 Billions! |
Regardless of what you say, we still get higher public service spending per capita than any other economic zone in the UK. If anyone is getting an unfair slice of the pie it is us.
| Quote: | Hitler wanted to invade Switzerland but his generals managed to pursuade him that the cost would be too high. The Americans igot involved in Vietnam but had to flee ignominiously from the fighting spirit of an army of lightly armed 'Gooks.' The same thing is happening in Iraq. They got chucked out of Lebanon and Somalia.
Scotland with a militia organised on Swiss lines could cause intolerable casualties on an army of occupation. I served as an officer in the RAF Regiment and know what I am talking about. Tanks, artillery and air power is helpless in the face of a single sniper and the hidden roadside bomb. The IRA in all its active service units never fielded more than 300 volunteers at a time yet they kept the british Army of over 30,000 on the back foot. |
A militia, eh? Can I assume that you then support the repeal of the gun laws? I'd probably support you on that but otherwise I imagine a militia of single-shot rifles, double-barrelled shotguns and mussel-firing (well, the powder for these actually requires an explosives licence... or so I've head) handguns would be rather ineffective.
The IRA could've been wiped out without too much bother by the British forces. The fact was that it politics that prevented it. Ditto for Vietnam. While 'Nam held out well against the Americans, it is hardly Scotland.
Incidently, with our disgraceful rates of obesity and ill health caused by our lifestyles, I don't reckon our militia would be much good over long distances... like to the end of the road.
Anyway I didn't see you as the sort to stand up and swear to protect Her Majesty from all Her enemies...
| Quote: | | I am an Accountant in public practise for 31 years and I do have access to the treasury red book figures. As you probably know Scotland is classed as a region in the UK for EU purposes and the information is readily available. The Unionists use the UK deficit to scare Scotland when in fact their argument is a tissue of lies. That however should not surprise you as westminster is staffed with congenital liars from the Prime Minister downwards. |
I recommend you vote for another party then.
I wrote:[quote]Question 7.
Scotland could not compete against the mighty economic muscle of England.
Untrue. Denmark has an economic superpower to her south (Germany) and she does very well indeed. Switzerland is surrounded by three great economic superpowers, France, Italy, and Germany, yet she is the most prosperous nation in Europe. Singapore is a tiny island of 4 million people right next door to Indonesia with a population if 201 Millions yet is the powerhouse driving the SE Asian economy. Scotland has more than enough expertise to compete and prosper.
| Quote: | | Not fillers or nonesense. These are frequently quoted by Unionist polititicians every week. The Daily Rectum recently ran a series of small articles on these very subjects. It is essential that our people should know the truth so they can make up their own minds. |
I can't say I read the Record, but if you've got any links to online versions of these articles I wouldn't object to a look.
| Quote: | You responded with: | Quote: | | And finally, question ten is sheer b.s. No one is saying that, although Scotland is more inclined to Socialism. I'm sure it'll be well managed though even if it is a total disaster |
Yet I hear this refrain from the Unionists every week, although I agree with you on Socialism, the innate common sense of the Scottish people will prevent them from electing an extreme government. However I would prefer it if mistakes are made they are our mistakes not Westminsters. |
Oh God no, we're too boring for extremism these days. What I fear most is a slow, blind walk away from common sense. After all, the worst sort of oppression is by those people who believe they are doing it for your own good.
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Aventinian
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| wallacesclaymore wrote: | | Aventinian, unlike the usual rhetoric of "thats all crap, lies and bullshit" you ordanarily come out with, via implied and veilled words, this does make sense and if one were an impartial viewer merely peering in for a wee look, I'm pretty certain it would seem this way too. |
To be honest, anyone who presents the position of their opponent will completely cloud it with their own prejudices. Many of these things, presented as 'Unionist' arguments would not be argued by anyone with half a mind, never mind anyone who had a decent grounding in politics or economics.
| Quote: | | The truth is, you are a unionist. You believe in that and that is the ONLY thing you believe. Your mind is closed and you have no real interest in discussing the mere notion of independence. |
I'm actually a Libertarian, although one can never fully condense ones beliefs by a few simple labels. That is where my fundamental opposition to Nationalism and governments running at arbitary levels comes from.
| Quote: | | This is known as entertaining an idea that could be POSSIBLE...something you seem sadly incapable of doing. |
I too have my utopias, but they are forward looking, not what I consider backwards looking.
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SLG
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| Aventinian wrote: | I don't believe you'll find many 'Unionists' (I remind you that Unionism is not actually a movement and simply an objection to Nationalism).
As you have correctly identified, even the UK makes a loss on on many occasions and does have debts. And as I pointed out, Scottish independence would not be impossible simply because of economic factors. No one is saying that and thus your 'unionist argument' was not a unionist argument at all, it was a convenient straw man made by yourself to shoot down. |
I use the term to mean anyone who believes in retaining the Union. Most 'Unionists' I know are not 'Brits', but are as (if not more) nationalistic than myself. They do vote for parties wishing to remain in the Union because they believe it is in the best interests of the country economically. That is my experience anyway.
| Aventinian wrote: | If you think the money from the oil reserves are not being exploited fully, I strongly advise you make your case for what should be done better and send it to Gordon Brown. No doubt he'll be very interested as he does seem to be pulling out all the stops to get money these days.
I certainly don't think things could be handled better by an inexperienced Scottish government. |
Brown appears to be taking a short term view at the moment. Recent tax increases and previous windfall taxes have generated revenue at the expense of investment. Who knows how the Scottish government will handle it. I would suggest that the oil industry being so key to the Scottish economy (rather than a cash cow for the London exchequer) would add a focus to ensure that the industry was supported. Scottish politicians are as likely to have as much knowledge as English ones regarding the oil industry. More important will be how willing they are to consult with the industry itself.
| Aventinian wrote: | | Regardless of what you say, we still get higher public service spending per capita than any other economic zone in the UK. If anyone is getting an unfair slice of the pie it is us. |
But of you read Niall's posts you will read that we put more in to the UK as well. We are taking less out than we put in. So even if we get more out than other 'regions' of the UK, we are working at a loss.
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SLG
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| Aventinian wrote: | | To be honest, anyone who presents the position of their opponent will completely cloud it with their own prejudices. Many of these things, presented as 'Unionist' arguments would not be argued by anyone with half a mind, never mind anyone who had a decent grounding in politics or economics. |
Aventinian, Niall didn't just post the 10 Q&A's for your benefit. AFAIK, they were originally posted on another forum after frequent posts made in support of the Union addressing the above points. They may not be the reasons you support the continuation of the Union, but they are representative of why many people do. Apart from scaremongering about the state wanting to rake around your house and an unfounded fear of an isolationist socialist state, I've not heard too many arguments from you as to why Scotland should remain in the Union.
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Aventinian
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| Quote: | | Quote: | | Regardless of what you say, we still get higher public service spending per capita than any other economic zone in the UK. If anyone is getting an unfair slice of the pie it is us. |
But of you read Niall's posts you will read that we put more in to the UK as well. We are taking less out than we put in. So even if we get more out than other 'regions' of the UK, we are working at a loss. |
That's still an unfair slice of the pie though.
Since I am such a believer in private education, healthcare etc I will extract damn-near nowt from the privy coffers of the state in my lifetime. I will also probably have more extracted from me in my lifetime than the majority of my fellow Britons. The very fact that you believe in taxation assumes that you believe in aiding others and living in a society.
I may be largely anti-taxation, but it is on a personal level. You see, I have individual consciousness. 'Scotland' does not.
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Aventinian
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You haven't been reading this thread very closely then. While I am operating on a strictly defensive basis (a case for the Union would be so much more straining on my typing than a defence of it against Nationalism) Shadowman has placed forward a number of fairly decent arguments.
By the by, was these 10 Questions and Answered sourced from the Siol Nan Gaeli...etc? I believe Niall has said he has links with this organisation...
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Niall
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| Aventinian wrote: | | By the by, was these 10 Questions and Answered sourced from the Siol Nan Gaeli...etc? I believe Niall has said he has links with this organisation... |
Aventian a charaid.
I wrote these ten questions and answers. They were posted on the Siol-nan-Gaidheal website for general distribution because the SnG site takes thousands of hits every day and is probably the most visited Scottish nationalist website.
I am a long standing member of the Siol, So what? Its a Historiacal and Cultural organisation that puts its money where its mouth is, so if you have something to say, Say it!
'S Mise
Niall.
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Niall
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Aventian a charaid.
You wrote: | Quote: | | A militia, eh? Can I assume that you then support the repeal of the gun laws? I'd probably support you on that but otherwise I imagine a militia of single-shot rifles, double-barrelled shotguns and mussel-firing (well, the powder for these actually requires an explosives licence... or so I've head) handguns would be rather ineffective. |
Firearms don't kill people. people kill people. The present firearms laws have ensured that the only people carrying and using firearms are the criminal fraternity who tend to despise our laws anyway. I am sure the Swiss system of militia members having their personal weapons kept at home would work equally as well in Scotland. And a single shot target rifle kills just as effectively as any automatic weapon. Scotland is ideally suited to guerilla warfare so any invader would suffer disproportionately high casualties.
| Quote: | | The IRA could've been wiped out without too much bother by the British forces. The fact was that it politics that prevented it. Ditto for Vietnam. While 'Nam held out well against the Americans, it is hardly Scotland. |
I served two tours in the six counties and I cannot agree that the IRA could have been wiped out. Not unless you proposed the nuking of both the north and south of Ireland?
| Quote: | | Incidently, with our disgraceful rates of obesity and ill health caused by our lifestyles, I don't reckon our militia would be much good over long distances... like to the end of the road. |
So you believe the over hyped reports about obesity in the press? Get real, you find very few overweight stalkers, crofters, farmers and manual workers who make up the vast majority of the TA.
| Quote: | | Anyway I didn't see you as the sort to stand up and swear to protect Her Majesty from all Her enemies... |
I am a son of the croft, and in my teens I worked on a farm first as an orra loon and then dairyloon. Work on a farm is arduous and poorly paid, so I joined the RAF basically to get a better rate of pay (£3/15/6d for 48 hours basic to £6/18/9d per week for less hours.) and a good education. Defending Queen and Country was the last thing on my mind. Most servicemen are in the same position, they are economic recruits, so don't point the finger, have you been a member of the armed forces?
'S mise
Niall.
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Aventinian
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| Niall wrote: | | Firearms don't kill people. people kill people. The present firearms laws have ensured that the only people carrying and using firearms are the criminal fraternity who tend to despise our laws anyway. I am sure the Swiss system of militia members having their personal weapons kept at home would work equally as well in Scotland. And a single shot target rifle kills just as effectively as any automatic weapon. Scotland is ideally suited to guerilla warfare so any invader would suffer disproportionately high casualties. |
I think you'd have a hard time persuading the people that weapons distribution should be so liberal. Incidently, under the present system there are thousands of people in Scotland who legally and responsibly use firearms.
I'd hate to try and mount a defence against an invading force with a single-shot rifle. Imagine two of them came a-knocking... that'd be me fucked.
| Quote: | | I served two tours in the six counties and I cannot agree that the IRA could have been wiped out. Not unless you proposed the nuking of both the north and south of Ireland? |
Far be it for me to call into question your soldiering abilities, but a few notable figures from the SAS seem to disagree with your assessment.
| Quote: | | So you believe the over hyped reports about obesity in the press? Get real, you find very few overweight stalkers, crofters, farmers and manual workers who make up the vast majority of the TA. |
Do you believe that the TA, at its present numbers, would be sufficient for your militia?
| Quote: | | I am a son of the croft, and in my teens I worked on a farm first as an orra loon and then dairyloon. Work on a farm is arduous and poorly paid, so I joined the RAF basically to get a better rate of pay (£3/15/6d for 48 hours basic to £6/18/9d per week for less hours.) and a good education. Defending Queen and Country was the last thing on my mind. Most servicemen are in the same position, they are economic recruits, so don't point the finger, have you been a member of the armed forces? |
I have indeed - however before you ask like most other forum-goers will, I am not willing to provide details as to when, where, how etc in an attempt to hold on to my semi-anonymity.
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SLG
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| Aventinian wrote: | | Quote: | | But of you read Niall's posts you will read that we put more in to the UK as well. We are taking less out than we put in. So even if we get more out than other 'regions' of the UK, we are working at a loss. |
That's still an unfair slice of the pie though. |
It depends on how you treat Scotland. As just another region of the UK, then you are right. As a country that is a member of a Union, it's not unfair. Or at least we would have to look at other benefits to account for it. Just as the UK treats the EU.
| Aventinian wrote: | Since I am such a believer in private education, healthcare etc I will extract damn-near nowt from the privy coffers of the state in my lifetime. I will also probably have more extracted from me in my lifetime than the majority of my fellow Britons. The very fact that you believe in taxation assumes that you believe in aiding others and living in a society.
I may be largely anti-taxation, but it is on a personal level. You see, I have individual consciousness. 'Scotland' does not. |
Again, this is where I feel you are being very naive. There is a national identity within Scotland and what you might even call a national consciousness. You might not buy into it, but it does exist. As I've said before, even almost all the people I know who vote for Unionist parties appreciate this and embrace it.
| Quote: | | You haven't been reading this thread very closely then. While I am operating on a strictly defensive basis (a case for the Union would be so much more straining on my typing than a defence of it against Nationalism) Shadowman has placed forward a number of fairly decent arguments. |
I didn't see any decent arguments from Shadowman. They might have been decent if any of his assumptions had been true, but they aren't. I responded to his post at the time. Please feel free to start a new thread making a case for the Union.
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Inge
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FreedomI think all nations should be free!
For example; I am from the Netherlands, a nice country, believe me!
But it was once was ruled by many different nations. Such as Spain, Germany etc. A country needs to stand on its own two feet! The people that live in that country have their own identity and we shouldn't deny that! Not ever! My great-grandparents where from Flamish Belgium. They fled their native homeland during the first world war. It wasn't a great place to be at mind you! people used to tell them welcome back home! I don't believe that and so did they. Flamish Belgium used to belong to the Netherlands (according to a bunch of papers), but in their hearts they were a different people entireley! And if I may say so we are!!! We fought for are freedom in 1830 and even though I am a half Belgiun I am proud of it! Because we fought for our freedom and so should YOU!!!!
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Aventinian
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We're not ruled by anyone and unlike being ruled by Spain, we are not subject to a foreign power.
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wisnaeme
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[/quote] We're not ruled by anyone and unlike being ruled by Spain,
we are not subject to a foreign power.
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SLG
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| Aventinian wrote: | | We're not ruled by anyone and unlike being ruled by Spain, we are not subject to a foreign power. |
The fact that Scots MPs only have a minority say in the running of Scotland could be interpreted to mean that we do not run ourselves.
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Lothian Sky
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Aventinian.
You claim to be against nationalism. How do you explain that silly flag then, or is British nationalism somehow alright? Explain.
You also said "I remind you that Unionism is not actually a movement and simply an objection to Nationalism". This is nonsense.
Many unionists are STAUNCH British nationalists, albeit with a pitiful Scots cringe mentality.
Good day.
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Nina
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Whether the 10 reasons are true or not, and especially the "we are running out of oil" reason, I can tell you that the Scots I know (of my own family and the people they socialise with..) believe that one. I did too, until I started to take a true interest...  Now I know.
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True Scotsman
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Inge Wrote
I think all nations should be free!
For example; I am from the Netherlands, a nice country, believe me!
But it was once was ruled by many different nations. Such as Spain, Germany etc. A country needs to stand on its own two feet! The people that live in that country have their own identity and we shouldn't deny that! Not ever! My great-grandparents where from Flamish Belgium. They fled their native homeland during the first world war. It wasn't a great place to be at mind you! people used to tell them welcome back home! I don't believe that and so did they. Flamish Belgium used to belong to the Netherlands (according to a bunch of papers), but in their hearts they were a different people entireley! And if I may say so we are!!! We fought for are freedom in 1830 and even though I am a half Belgiun I am proud of it! Because we fought for our freedom and so should YOU!!!!
Your right Inge, it's about us Scots stood up for our selves. The Scots were once a determined, forword thinking people who were proud of there culture. So come on Scots be proud of who we are. We were forced into this union with England & we got no vote on the issue & most Scots were absolutely against the union. One day the Scots will realise that the only way forword for Scotland is to regain our Independence. So come on Scots, we were once Independent State & if we managed to survive on our own once before, then we can do it again & if small countries like Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Ireland, Switzerland & Norway can do it on their there own then so can Scotland do it on it's own. So it's about time Scottish Nation to be free once again.
__________________________
FREEDOM FOR SCOTLAND!!!!!!!!
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Nina
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What I find such a sad thing is the fact that so many young Scots don't care about a free Scotland as they do about a fitba match for instance. Bearing in mind that so many Scots gave their lives for this freedom, generation after generation. I would find it almost heartbreaking to believe their blood was shed for nothing 
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Aventinian
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| SLG wrote: | | Aventinian wrote: | | We're not ruled by anyone and unlike being ruled by Spain, we are not subject to a foreign power. |
The fact that Scots MPs only have a minority say in the running of Scotland could be interpreted to mean that we do not run ourselves. |
Of course we don't run ourselves. I vote for an MP in a constituency of thousands - I certainly don't control myself. It's called democracy.
Stop treating nations like some quasi-divinity. They are not.
| Lothian Sky wrote: | Aventinian.
You claim to be against nationalism. How do you explain that silly flag then, or is British nationalism somehow alright? Explain. |
I'd condemn British nationalism as quickly as Scottish. I am no Nationalist. The simple use of the flag of a state does not constitute nationalism. Indeed it demonstates that I am British and that my opinions represent what this Briton believes.
| Quote: | You also said "I remind you that Unionism is not actually a movement and simply an objection to Nationalism". This is nonsense.
Many unionists are STAUNCH British nationalists, albeit with a pitiful Scots cringe mentality. |
I don't believe that is true. Scotland is part of Britain. British nationalism encompasses Scottish culture.
| Nina wrote: | | What I find such a sad thing is the fact that so many young Scots don't care about a free Scotland as they do about a fitba match for instance. Bearing in mind that so many Scots gave their lives for this freedom, generation after generation. I would find it almost heartbreaking to believe their blood was shed for nothing |
I care as much about as free Scotland as I do about a free Britain, a free Commonwealth, a free Europe and a free World. I'd rather increase the freedoms of some Africans living under a dictator than Scotland, I've got to say.
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Rinty
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h | Quote: | | The simple use of the flag of a state does not constitute nationalism. Indeed it demonstates that I am British and that my opinions represent what this Briton believes. |
So, although you are not a nationalist, your nationality or britishness is your defining identification in your mind. And your identity as British outweighs your identity under any other symbol the your national flag.
Or am I simply overanalysing and it is simply a wee wind up of the type of people you expected to meet here and a sort of red rag to a bull-shitter? 
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Aventinian
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Re: h | Rinty wrote: | | [So, although you are not a nationalist, your nationality or britishness is your defining identification in your mind. And your identity as British outweighs your identity under any other symbol the your national flag. |
No, no - my identity is certainly not predominantly British, or Scottish for that matter. There's plenty of things more significant than that. Not all of them have attractive flags that using would be appropriate on a forum though.
Either way, there's a big difference between flying a national flag and being a nationalist. Plenty of Unionists would be happy to fly the saltire without it being a political statement.
| Quote: | | Or am I simply overanalysing and it is simply a wee wind up of the type of people you expected to meet here and a sort of red rag to a bull-shitter? |
*cough* You've kinda outed me here.
100% honesty - I saw that trublu guy had been banned before just before I came on here. He also had 'image censored' or something in the space where his icon pic should've been. I wondered what he'd put in there and exactly what I was going to be able to get away with. A nice first-post test of the water really, but I do still like it.
I use a UJ on Scotland.com too... but it certainly wasn't the first thing I used.
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SLG
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True blue was banned for repeated racist comments. He didn't have any avatar to censor. The 'banned' image is just to make it clear to people looking over old posts that he is now banned. His signature did have to be censored as it made offensive comments towards gypsies.
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Rinty
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jthere's no comparison, trueblue was a dick wheras Aventinian is merely a pompous brit
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azzuri
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I like Aventinian - I share some of his views  although there are far more that I don't.
At least he argues his point without becoming offensive. I don't agree with him a lot of the time, but what would be the point of a forum where everyone agreed all of the time?
There was a couple of folk that complained about the UJ but they weren't exactly regular contributors. What are we supposed to do - ban a bloody flag? Get a grip - I don't particularly like the UJ either but at the end of the day it's just a pattern and colours.
Have to give the guy some credit. If there was a 'unionist' forum then I'm not sure I could've stuck it out there the way he has here despite some mud being thrown at him early on.
Anyway - enough of this love in - f**k the Union! 
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Nina
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| rs_azzuri wrote: | | Anyway - enough of this love in - f**k the Union! |
Righton... I thought I saw a hippie 
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Donnie
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Hey - wow second post.
I have always found the question of independence so perplexing due to the nationalism involved. In my opinion, could be very wrong, but over the many thousands of years I am yet to see any examples of nationalism that hasn't led to devisive forces and war and bloodshed. From nationalism in Bismarcks Germany to Japanese nationalism in world war two. All nationalism does is say that there is no such thing as individuality, that race and where you are born count more. It clouds your judgement and isn't country of birth complete chance?
Everyone loves their country - people are attached to where they grow up, and Scotland, is especially beautiful and indeed has a rich culture and history. However, I think it is unfair to say that every Scotsman wants independence. My impression is that most people in this country are apathetic when it comes to politics and especialy independence. The reason we have this devolved parliament is because in the referendum for independence the target of 50% of voters taking part was not reached.
Then you have to ask yourself, in an age when the world is getting so much smaller due to internet and easier, inexpensive travel, do we really want to encourage divisive forces or further integration of humanity on a world scale?
Donnie
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Abieuan
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As the world is getting smaller, then so are communities all over it.
You cite some bad examples of nationalism, look at the Czech republic and Slovakia as more modern examples.
Scotland could break away from the UK without any bloodshed.
| Quote: | | However, I think it is unfair to say that every Scotsman wants independence. My impression is that most people in this country are apathetic when it comes to politics and especialy independence. |
Reluctantly, i would have to agree with you there, but that is due to a lack of self-confidence instilled in us by the London government.
| Quote: | | do we really want to encourage divisive forces or further integration of humanity on a world scale? |
I don't see it as devisive, i want to see smaller states coming together to make policies rather than large "super states".
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SLG
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| Donnie wrote: | | I have always found the question of independence so perplexing due to the nationalism involved. In my opinion, could be very wrong, but over the many thousands of years I am yet to see any examples of nationalism that hasn't led to devisive forces and war and bloodshed. From nationalism in Bismarcks Germany to Japanese nationalism in world war two. All nationalism does is say that there is no such thing as individuality, that race and where you are born count more. It clouds your judgement and isn't country of birth complete chance? |
I know a lot of folk who feel the same Donnie. And the fear of Nationalism puts them off voting for the SNP. Nationalism can mean many things though and most folk think about the bad examples. An independent Scotland will never invade anyone, nor will it be based on promote an ethnic nationalism. Nationalism and individualism need not be mutually exclusive.
| Donnie wrote: | | Everyone loves their country - people are attached to where they grow up, and Scotland, is especially beautiful and indeed has a rich culture and history. However, I think it is unfair to say that every Scotsman wants independence. My impression is that most people in this country are apathetic when it comes to politics and especialy independence. The reason we have this devolved parliament is because in the referendum for independence the target of 50% of voters taking part was not reached. |
We have never had a referendum on Independence Donnie. Are you thinking about the '79 referendum on home rule? To date, Independence has never been an option. Again, I know what you mean though. I think that most Scots are relatively well off at the moment, and so while I think independence is preferable to the majority in theory, I doubt many would vote with it as priority and at present, it may not even have a majority in favour should there be a referendum. Two things can change that , either an economic downturn, or confidence that the Scots Parliament is mature enough to take on full sovereignty without ruining the country.
| Donnie wrote: | | Then you have to ask yourself, in an age when the world is getting so much smaller due to internet and easier, inexpensive travel, do we really want to encourage divisive forces or further integration of humanity on a world scale? |
I would argue that an Independent Scotland would be allow us to integrate into the world to a greater extent and on our terms than via the United Kingdom. As Abieuan says, small nation states have to work together. Large states are tempted to work unilaterally to the detriment of the international community.
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x_scotsdream_x
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Let me tell you all something though. A few days ago i was listening to a scottish radio station and on their show they were interviewing the leading bird flu researcher of Scotland - he was English. Then to follow they interviewed two senior professors of a SCOTTISH university and to my disgust heard another two ENGLISH voices. To be honest back on that amazing day in 1314 when our ancestors and scottish hero's fought for our independance, our independance was not won - the english just let us have a little bit of space for a few years and Scotland is now suffering from the same battle in a more modern and technological way. If it was up to our english neighbours, our wonderful nation would be yet another English city! I personally am sick and tired of being the "underdogs" because who exactly are we underdogs to? the english? I beg to differ, many scots are listening too much to english media and are allowing them to take over our land and i personally think it is time to put a stop to this! Keeping in mind i am 19 years old - i am still very passionate about our country and all of my friends agree with me.
Surely its time to put an end to the snobbery and give scotland exactly what it needs, what we have been fighting for all our days, Freedom!!?!
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SLG
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Welcome to the forum scotsdream. Good to hear that you and your pals in Dumfries are passionate about Scotland. Aye, we are still mostly ruled from England and most of our media is based there. As long as that remains the case, we will struggle to move on. I wouldn't blame the English now though. Most of them don't give a s**t about Scotland. If we choose to be Independent, then we will be... it is up to us to resolve the situation.
One thing that IMO is definitely not a problem is having English academics working here. Top level scientific research is a truly global industry. It is encouraged to move labs to share experience and so those progressing up the ladder often have to leave Scotland where, due to the size of the country, there may only be one lab specialising in that area. One reason that the scientific sector is so strong in Scotland is down to the ability to attract top scientists from all across the world. It is also the case that some of the Scots who get into these positions are privately educated followed by Oxbridge uni and so may not have a Scots accent.
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redlak
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Just to follow up on the comments I am a Scot whose parents were in the RAF and most of my early Primary education was spent in Malta and England. This means my accent sounds English and it is often assumed so by most i come into contact with.
However my heart is Scots and besides The Bruce probably spoke with a French accent and yet his Scottishness is never in Question. So let us welcome all and not be so quick to prejudge people.
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x_scotsdream_x
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Thanks SLG! aye i agree with you 100% with that (about English experts) however in moderation!! this was just an example of two occasions where i have heard english voices representing scottish people - however i could name many occasions where the same thing has happened. It makes me kinda bitter to think that Scotland does not have its own Scottish leading expert on issues effecting scotland - if that sounds racist i apologise as i do not hate the whole of england there are many lovely english people - i just despise the way they try to overly influence themselves on scotland and oor culture - as its starting to seperate the country.
Also the chairman of the Dumfries & Galloway council is Scottish with an English accent and many people misjudged him as English its a very easy mistake to make and im sure no-one means any harm by it, but it would be more than a coincidence if all the english voices i have heard either on the radio or the TV were actually scots with english voices.
I appreciate both of your opinions though and apologies if some of this doesnt make sense to you as im young and daft! so im on this site to try and learn a bit more about our country lol.
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Aventinian
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| Abieuan wrote: | | Quote: | | However, I think it is unfair to say that every Scotsman wants independence. My impression is that most people in this country are apathetic when it comes to politics and especialy independence. |
Reluctantly, i would have to agree with you there, but that is due to a lack of self-confidence instilled in us by the London government. |
It is a lack of confidence that encourages the uber-Scottish nonsense that many nationalists spout. Someone who is comfortable in their nationality doesn't leap - as many at the SNP & co. do - into a tantrum whenever they perceive their nation has been slighted. This mentality is one of the things that I believe keep sensible people away from Scots Nationalists.
Anyway, if your vision of 'self-confidence' transpired, we'd all be extreme Libertarians content to govern ourselves absolutely as sovereign individuals. This may be extremely self-confidence (or is 'arrogant' more appropriate here) but it's certainly not beneficial or practical. Secondly, and on the same point, what has HM Government done to instill this lack of self confidence in you? I'd imagine it'd be Holyrood - responsible for education and patronising initiatives - that'd have done this to you.
If you really lack self-confidence, I suggest you go and see some sort of mental health expert - hell, I imagine the London Government will even pay for it.
| x_scotsdream_x wrote: | | Let me tell you all something though. A few days ago i was listening to a scottish radio station and on their show they were interviewing the leading bird flu researcher of Scotland - he was English. Then to follow they interviewed two senior professors of a SCOTTISH university and to my disgust heard another two ENGLISH voices. |
Holy God, foreign university staff?! Round them up and stick them in jail!
I'm sorry, but this is really nothing short of racism.
| Quote: | | o be honest back on that amazing day in 1314 when our ancestors and scottish hero's fought for our independance, our independance was not won - the english just let us have a little bit of space for a few years and Scotland is now suffering from the same battle in a more modern and technological way. |
Scotland won its independence which it maintains to this day - it has never been under the dominion of any foreign power.
| Quote: | | If it was up to our english neighbours, our wonderful nation would be yet another English city! I |
Oh yes? I'm afraid that's bullshit. At points in history, if this had been desired, it would've happened. It didn't, unlike in many other places outwith Britain.
Nowadays, civilised people don't force their cultures on anyone. Although I'm sad to say it is more lightly today that people who support Edinburgh are going to try to do that to me than the people who support London...
| Quote: | | Surely its time to put an end to the snobbery and give scotland exactly what it needs, what we have been fighting for all our days, Freedom!!?! |
An nation cannot be free, only the people within it. And Scotland is part of a free country - the United Kingdom.
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Wolf of Badenoch
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[quote="Aventinian"]
Scotland won its independence which it maintains to this day - it has never been under the dominion of any foreign power.
Right noo take aff yer Union flag tinted glasses an hae another attempt at that.Never heard so much bollocks in my life.
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x_scotsdream_x
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aventinian - i was being polite in my posts you were just plain rude everyone is allowed an opinion you obviously are a unionist i obviously am a nationalist therefore why dont we agree to disagree eh? and if you would care to read my posts Im 19 years old and still learning a lot and apologised if i sounded a bit daft however i am not stupid so please dont patronise me and lets get back to making some valid intillectual points eh!
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Abieuan
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Aventinian wrote:
| Quote: | what has HM Government done to instill this lack of self confidence in you? I'd imagine it'd be Holyrood - responsible for education and patronising initiatives - that'd have done this to you.
If you really lack self-confidence, I suggest you go and see some sort of mental health expert - hell, I imagine the London Government will even pay for it. |
I was not saying that i have a lack of self-confidence, (I am an SNP member) but that many people who vote for Unionist parties do so as they have told by HM Government members for generations that Scotland is "too small" and could never go it alone in the world.
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Aventinian
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| x_scotsdream_x wrote: | | aventinian - i was being polite in my posts you were just plain rude everyone is allowed an opinion you obviously are a unionist i obviously am a nationalist therefore why dont we agree to disagree eh? and if you would care to read my posts Im 19 years old and still learning a lot and apologised if i sounded a bit daft however i am not stupid so please dont patronise me and lets get back to making some valid intillectual points eh! |
I will not patronise you for your age. I've met people who are intelligent and mature before their 19th birthday, I can assure you.
However, I will not let you make racist comments without at least criticising you for them. What you said was certainly not a 'valid intellectual point' - in fact, it was the intellectual equivilent of someone complain about there being too many blacks walking down the street these days.
| Abieuan wrote: | | I was not saying that i have a lack of self-confidence, (I am an SNP member) but that many people who vote for Unionist parties do so as they have told by HM Government members for generations that Scotland is "too small" and could never go it alone in the world. |
So you'd rather have the sheep herded by a government in Edinburgh than a government in London? That sounds distinctly pointless to me.
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SLG
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| Aventinian wrote: | | I will not patronise you for your age. I've met people who are intelligent and mature before their 19th birthday, I can assure you. |
But when someone openly admits to expressing a somewhat naive opinion and is looking for feedback, it is only polite to treat them in the same manner.
However, I will not let you make racist comments without at least criticising you for them. What you said was certainly not a 'valid intellectual point' - in fact, it was the intellectual equivilent of someone complain about there being too many blacks walking down the street these days.[/quote]
Surely anti-English comments are regionalist rather than racist, no ? It's like an Edinburger complaining about all the weegies in the capital nowadays, no? Racism is very different, it involves having an opinion on someone based purely on their race. Very different from the concern about someones political persuasion based on the fact that they come from a different country. Do you think that the USA is racist because they won't let someone born outwith the US become president? As nationalist we believe that the interests of Scotland and her people (including those born outwith Scotland) are best served through Independence. Surely it is understandable that having those in positions of influence from that nation we are in Union with might lead to a possible conflict of interest? Holly came here expressing an opinion, but with an open mind. I've tried to explain that in science, there isn't really and issue. However in other areas of life (directly political or media based) the case might be different.
| Aventinian wrote: | | So you'd rather have the sheep herded by a government in Edinburgh than a government in London? That sounds distinctly pointless to me. |
I would. Why pay our taxes for an incompetent political class in London when we can employ all those folk locally and feed some of that money back into the local economy? So even if we gain nothing in terms of political change, I think that is a benefit. Of course you know fine well that all nats believe that Independence will produce a positive change to governance.
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sandmountainslim
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[quote="Wolf of Badenoch"] | Aventinian wrote: |
Scotland won its independence which it maintains to this day - it has never been under the dominion of any foreign power.
Right noo take aff yer Union flag tinted glasses an hae another attempt at that.Never heard so much bollocks in my life. |
Maintains to this day?  Not since the Act of Union I am sad to say
Alba will be free again however, bet yer arse on that!
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SLG
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| x_scotsdream_x wrote: | | Keeping in mind i am 19 years old - i am still very passionate about our country and all of my friends agree with me. |
Out of interest, are you or any of your pals members of any poitical parties?
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x_scotsdream_x
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SLG - not as of yet were all open minded (this is why im on this iste is to learn but obviously aventinian has problems dealing with this) lol 
Aventinian - i am not racist a dont have a racist bone in ma body and if u would care to actually read what a said in that post you would see that a said i do not hate the whole of england i hate the things that they try to do to scotland AND i apologised if i sounded racist as it was not meant to sound racist. You obviously did not agree with what i said but surely even i at 19 years old am intellectual and mature enough to have a decent debate without falling out and getting personal? stop grabbin onti something that isnt worth grabbing onto as it is not a valid point that you are making? i was not racist - i merely stated that i was sick of all of the english trying to change the way things are done THATS ALL.
Again, no offence and apologies to anyone who may be offended by my earlier post - i am still young and daft
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True Scotsman
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Do not worry x_scotsdream_x you are not the only youngster here. I am 18 years old. So you're age is something to be ashamed & I think there will be quite a few young people on this forum.
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FREEDOM FOR SCOTLAND!!!!!!!!
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True Scotsman
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Sorry there x_scotsdream_x I made one mistake on my last post. There was one word that that was wrong. It should be nothing to be ashamed off not something. Sorry about that.
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FREEDOM FOR SCOTLAND!!!!!!!!
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x_scotsdream_x
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True Scotsman - call me holly its a lot easier LOL aye cheers eh!kidden! age is only a number a just use it as an excuse for ma daftyness ahahaha
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redlak
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this is for Scotsdream I can only applaud you and all of your freinds for engaging in debate about the prospects and future of Scotland,let me assure you I have great faith in the people of Scotland regardless of age,creed or colour to find the answers and voting for independence.
It is right and proper you should ask questions, we who are older have a responsibility to impart our knowledge in a sensible manner witout being condescening or patronising.
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azzuri
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| redlak wrote: | this is for Scotsdream I can only applaud you and all of your freinds for engaging in debate about the prospects and future of Scotland,let me assure you I have great faith in the people of Scotland regardless of age,creed or colour to find the answers and voting for independence.
It is right and proper you should ask questions, we who are older have a responsibility to impart our knowledge in a sensible manner witout being condescening or patronising. |
I have to say that this is probably one of the best posts I've seen on this board - and I've made a high % of them myself and looked at every single one so I should know!
I'm happy we're attracting people like scotsdream to this board - that's why I set these forums up after all. You want to learn - and there are many good people here that will be only too happy to help you to.
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x_scotsdream_x
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Thanks a lot redlak! since joinin the forum i felt that ad been a bit ae a pest causin a riff wi aventinian n whatnot so its nice and encouraging to know theres people as nice as yourselves to help folks like me out! Plus i agre | |
