SFA Announces Celtic Cup

Reluctant Hero · SFA Announces Celtic Cup

Tourney between Scotland, Wales, Ireland and Northern Ireland could start in 2011.

Check out the different slants on the issue.

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/n...r_Nations_football_tournament.php

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/7342771.stm

RadgeJougal

"Four Nations tournament" - something wrong with this phrase.

Corby Boy

Northern Ireland is not a 'nation' it is a province! Technically, got to be incorrect.

Celtic Cup or something along those lines, is more appropriate. However, how 'Celtic' would the average Northern Ireland supporter feel? Wink

RadgeJougal

Nor is the Republic of Ireland a proper nation.

Blackleaf

Another wildly innacurate posting.

The Republic of Ireland IS a proper nation and I'm sure most people of that little nation would agree with me. It is a normal member of the UN and the EU and, as such, is just an ordinary nation.

There is nothing that distinguishes the Republic of Ireland as being a non-normal nation from nations such as France or Germany or Luxembourg.

Saying that it isn't a proper nation is just strange and not a good advertisement for the once-great Scottish education system.

Blackleaf

Anyway, back to the football.

Why is everyone getting so excited about a Celtic League?

All the English have to do is set up a Germanic League, and we'd be competing with our fellow Germanic peoples - Germany, Holland, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, Norway and maybe Austria.

Much better than a Celtic League.

Why watch Northern Ireland VS Scotland when you can watch England VS Holland or Germany VS Denmark?

William_Cleland

Red Justice

Rinty

Northern Ireland IS a nation whether some people want it to be or not. It is part of the United Kingdom but is a nation in the same way that Scotland and Wales are.

Red Justice

Unfortuantly it gets political when they call it a four nations cup. I would prefer the term was not used Rinty, but a term that would see both communities of N Ireland satisfied.

I have always supported a one All Ireland team in all sports.

I am sure the non-sectarian George Best supported an all Ireland soccer team in the world.

William_Cleland

You are a bit out of date, Red Justice. The RoI gave up its constitutional claim to NI in 1998 after a 94.4% Yes vote to constitutional changes required to implement the Good Friday Agreement. Doesn't mean they wouldn't like a UI at some future point but they now accept the right of NI to exist as one of the Home Nations of the UK based on the wishes of the people who live there. You may wish to ponder some of the latest polling data if you think a UI is likely any time soon:-

http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2007/Political_Attitudes/NIRELND2.html

Red Justice

I have always accepted any vote or referendum on the constitutional position of the island of Ireland should consider Ireland voting as a unit rather than one or two separate entities but we are getting into politics here.

My other point appicable to sport is I cannot see any reason (with our friendly relations on these islands) why Ireland cannot play even in a UK competition as an All Ireland soccer team.

William_Cleland

Maybe best to ask the FAofI that. They are the ones that broke away after all. The IFA kept trying to field All Ireland teams in the Home Internationals up until about 1948 but were eventually told to stop by FIFA and players from the IFS/RoI eventually stopped participating due in part to threats from militant Republicans.

Cymro

Like it or not there isn't going to be an United Irish Football team for a hell of a long time, certainly not at a professional level, maybe an invitational side may take to the field sooner but the willingness isn't there yet.

However a tournament brining the RoI and Northern Ireland up against eachother can only be a good thing in terms of normalising relaitons further (even if it is a head ache for Policing).

Regarding the trolls comments, well as a Welshman I'd be far more likely to sit down and watch Wales playing Northern Ireland than England against their Germanic cousins anyday. If I'm going to watch football teams that mean nothing to me playing Id rather sit down and watch the Copa America - and see how football should be played not how our pre-madonna neighbours think it should be played.

Regarding the use of Nations within Football - well the easy answer is not to call it a 4 Nations Cup. Rugby uses Nations and Ireland competes as 1 thus removing that 'issue'. The Celtic Cup does the job as good as any.

kevin04

This might take the conversation in a different direction and I apologise in advance but one thing I have always struggled to understand is why the Protestants of Northern Ireland cannot accept the Tri-Colour as a flag for them or for Ireland in general?
The Green for Ireland, White for peace and Orange for the Protestants. There is no catholic colours on that flag!

As for the Celtic Cup, I am against the idea on the basis that it eats up a medium sized bulk of our International fixtures to play teams that have a similar approach, tactical outlook and style to ourselves. I much rather we played teams from all over Europe, ones that may be beneficial to the current qualifying group which we may be in at the time.

William_Cleland

The orange bit often gets replaced by gold with the symbolism becoming green and white for Ireland and white and gold for Roman Catholicism based on the colours of the Vatican flag. It's that sort of often only thinly camouflaged sectarianism that leaves Protestants in Northern Ireland feeling alienated from Irishness. It was a different story in 1798 when the move for an Irish republic was a secular one with a strong anti-clerical component like the French revolution.

Cymro

Oh come now William, that poor excuse in terms of Orange being Gold has been discussed on here before. I'm yet to come across one person from the RoI who says the Orange in the flag is in fact Gold. Where as I don't doubt you get 1 or 2 that may be that stupid as to say that, I don't think you can possibly take these people seriously. It could be possible though that many of the Unionist persuasion in the North like to claim it's gold in order to almost prohibit Protestants from thinking an United Ireland may not be that bad a thing after all.....

As I said though, most people realise the true meaning of the tricolour, regardless of their own persuasions. There is little point of giving idiots that give it a different definition credibility.

William_Cleland

Could post lots of pictures but can't be bothered. Fact is that there is an alternative symbolism with gold that is often adopted. It's even mentioned on the wikipedia page about the tricolour:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ireland

It is claimed that often differing shades of yellow, instead of orange, are seen at civilian functions. However the Department of the Taoiseach state that this is a misrepresentation which "should be actively discouraged" .[3] In songs and poems, the colours are often enumerated as "green, white and gold".[15] Using "gold" in place of "orange" may variously be interpreted as simple poetic license, a throwback to the green and gold flag of nineteenth century nationalism, an identification with the papal colours of white and gold, or a desire to downplay the symbolism of "green" Ireland being in harmony with Orangeism.[16]

Irish nationalism when you scratch the surface a bit doesn't always match the official propaganda version.

Cymro

Oh William, come now. I could probably post evidence off the web on here that the Moon is made of cheese (Caerfilli, or maybe Galway). Means jack to normal people though does it. Anyone with any sense (I hope you have some) knows that the orange in the tricolour is indeed orange not gold as you want to try and make out.

William_Cleland

Not wasting my time on you, cymro. At no point did I suggest that orange was always replaced by gold. That's nothing more than a strawman argument on your part and I suspect you are well aware of that.

Cymro

William, that's not what I'm trying to say (sorry for being unclear - blame the Guinness). You've come on here before with your "some regard the Orange as being Gold" as some sort of definitive proof of the secterian links within the Republican Movment. Now, I honestly think you are giving way way way too much 'weight' (for want of a better word) for the very very very few people that have made these claims.

Blackleaf

The green in the Rep of Ireland flag represents the older Gaelic tradition while the orange represents the supporters of William of Orange. The white in the centre signifies a lasting truce between the 'Orange' and the 'Green'.

William of Orange was good for democracy. He helped to give Britain its modern Constitutional Monarchy. Whereas James II (VII of Scotland) was a strong believer in Absolute Monarchy (and so, I suppose, must have been the Jacobites) with the monarch rather than parliament holding absolute power, just like his father Charles I who lost his head in January 1649 for the same reason.

Rinty

William is right that the 'gold' (often actually yellow) is often used by nationalist and republicans on civil, cultural and, mainly, sporting functions.

However, I dont think he is correct that it has anything to do with the vatican. It is clearly from the old "harp and shamrock/green white and gold" tradition of the previous flag of the republican movement. Those who led that movement and the subsequent independence movement were certainly no friends of the vatican!