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Reluctant Hero

Old Firm Selling To Survive

An interesting article in the Sunday Herald by Ian Bell about the demise of the Old Firm.

http://www.sundayherald.com/sport...much_going_for_honest_poverty.php
William_Cleland

Given most of David Murray's business dealings are in real estate and steel for building construction the recession has probably hit him very hard. Ian Bell appears to have bottled out of openly pondering the question of whether he actually could underwrite another share issue this time but it's definitely the elephant in the room where this article is concerned.

He's right about the last bit:-

What if Rangers being cut down to size means having Scotland cut down to size, the country being turned, finally, into a true backwater of European football? That is the distinct possibility.

Love them or loathe them the Old Firm are the only plausible means we have of marking the difference between mere national winners and recognised national champions.

People can lose interest. Once upon a time the Irish League was like this:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0COG2l9MXjA

Now they usually get about 10 to 20% of the crowds there were back then.
Rinty

Celtic have increased revenue, increased player wages budget and reduced debt year on year recently.  They have played at the later stages in europe 4 times in seven seasons, far more than previous decades and are not cutting the budget or the staff.

That fact that increasing revenue in England means it is harder to compete and creates a bigger gap doesnt equal a demise.

Likewise, rangers, although reducing player budget and their main backer being affected by the economic downturn, are still operating at a high level re wages and income compared to most teams.  A downsizing in line with current financial climates for the club doesnt equal a demise and a couple of league titles and a run in Europe makes a big difference, as does a big transfer fee.

Both teams ARE susceptible to what Bell calls 'cross border raids', but for most of history this has been true, ther have always been teams, in England and elsewhere who can pay more, offer aglamour and take some of our best players.

Rangers, financially are a downturn, possibly temprarily, Celtic are quite healthy finacially, both have played in european finals and last 16 of the CL in recent years.

I think he thought of the headline and then fitted the story around it, especially as far as Celtic are concerned who have a wage budget well over 30 million, and rising.
William_Cleland

Not being able to compete with the likes of Stoke City for wages is eventually going to take its toll. Things are returning to the way they were pre-Souness Revolution and the preference shares financed spending splurge by Martin O'Neill in that regard. A few bad seasons in a row in Europe could make Champions League entry much more problematic given there are large eastern European countries that can be expected to surpass Scotland in UEFA coefficient terms as their economies strengthen. What happens if over time the younger generation start to prefer watching higher quality English premiership games on television to watching the local stuff live? That's what killed interest in the Irish League.
Rinty

A few bad seasons in europe would cause problems as would the success of other neighbouring leagues.  But we have just had our worst season in europe for a long time following our best season in europe for decades.  So lets call this a demise IF we have the problems in europe and wait to see if that happens.

The English wages are exagerrated to an extent.  The top end teams pay huge wages,  but the smaller teams can offer a few high profile players large wages, usually on short contracts but in general are below Celtic and probably Rangers in terms of what they pay.

Most of the huge pays in England are performave linked and the clubs who do well can see an increase from basic to bonus of about 60%, in some cases it doubles.

But, I think we in Scotland (possibly the same everywhere else) tend to shout 'crisis' too early.

Celtic are in a very healthy financial state and are increasing wages, rangers position is short term still leaves enough to be competing higher than most teams, and could easily achange with events on and off the field.

I have heard the 'look what happened to the Irish league' argument most of my life and I dont think we see conditions (at least not yet) that suggest this is happening.
Corby Boy

Succinctly put Cymro.

I quite agree, and I believe in the aims for a united Ireland.

Many people on the 'British'  mainland would probably also agree with the case for a United Ireland, despite being 'British'.

Problem with Irish politics from where I observe it, is that everything gets funnelled into them and us. History is manipulated to suit a particular cause.

Life isn't that black and white or orange and green.
William_Cleland

^^ Posted to the wrong thread I assume?
agentmancuso

William_Cleland wrote:
^^ Posted to the wrong thread I assume?


Presumably your Nazi signature is posted to the wrong forum?  Shocked
William_Cleland

Do you think my latest signature means that I support New Labour or does it help encapsulate in one short phrase what is problematic about them? As for Corby Boy's post I eventually figured out that it must have been in response to this:-

http://ourscotland.myfreeforum.org/ftopic5891-79.php
agentmancuso

William_Cleland wrote:
Do you think my latest signature means that I support New Labour or does it help encapsulate in one short phrase what is problematic about them?


Presumably the latter. But on a forum where more or less everyone shares a distaste for New Labour so much could be taken as read. It's considerably less obvious that a famous statement from a minor Nazi quoted without comment and absolutely free of context should be taken as irony.
William_Cleland

Even when my earlier sigs have been, "The people have spoken, the b***ards! - Dick Tuck" and "Sair Elba", and I have Andy Stewart in my avatar for reasons that have nothing to do with an appreciation of his music?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlltylOV23g

You are way off base in stating that it is famous statement made by a minor Nazi. They were actually the words of a fictional character in a play. Bit like, "I love the smell of napalm in the morning" in other words, which has also often been used satirically for much the same reasons. After lengthy consideration I'm out of here and won't even be back to lurk. You should never have been allowed anywhere near the moderation controls after some of your past antics.
Rinty

It is a line taken from a play that was premiered at a special performance for Hitler's birthday and a major Nazi used it in a speech, which is why it is famous.

I cant see where the irony is in using that as a signature.
agentmancuso

William_Cleland wrote:
Even when my earlier sigs have been, "The people have spoken, the b***ards! - Dick Tuck" and "Sair Elba", and I have Andy Stewart in my avatar for reasons that have nothing to do with an appreciation of his music?

Again, it's fairly obvious why those things would be used on a forum largely populated by Scottish nationalists. The use of Nazi propaganda is less obviously ironic.

Quote:
You are way off base in stating that it is famous statement made by a minor Nazi. They were actually the words of a fictional character in a play.

Am I really? Let's leave it to the audience to decide:

The play-

Quote:
When the Nazis achieved power in 1933, Johst wrote the play Schlageter, an expression of Nazi ideology performed on Hitler's birthday to celebrate his victory.


The playwright-

Quote:
In 1935, Johst became the President of the Reichsschrifttumskammer (writer's union) and of the Deutsche Akademie für Dichtung (poetry academy), powerful organisations for German writers. In the same year the last prominent Jewish writers, e.g. Martin Buber, were expelled from the Reichsschrifttumskammer. By this time these organisations restricted membership to writers whose work was either explicitly pro-Nazi or at least approved of by the Nazis as non-"degenerate". Johst achieved many other positions of importance within the Nazi state, and he was named in the Gottbegnadeten list of September 1944 as one of the Reich's most important artists. During the war he held various positions within the SS.

but surely, as the acknowledged holder of a Black Belt in Wikipedia you knew all that already.

Quote:
"I love the smell of napalm in the morning" in other words, which has also often been used satirically for much the same reasons.
You may be right, but I can't tell, because you seem determined to keep these reasons a secret.

Quote:
After lengthy consideration I'm out of here and won't even be back to lurk. You should never have been allowed anywhere near the moderation controls after some of your past antics.

That's a pity. I often disagree with you, but you do provide a different point of view. It's seems like an odd reaction to a mild expression of curiosity at your signature.
agentmancuso

Re: Old Firm Selling To Survive

Reluctant Hero wrote:
An interesting article in the Sunday Herald by Ian Bell about the demise of the Old Firm.

http://www.sundayherald.com/sport...much_going_for_honest_poverty.php


Bell's a tit. He knows precious little about politics and even less about poetry. The only reason they pay him to write his bloke-at-the-end-of-the-bar style rubbish is that in his mustacheoed days he bore a startling resemblance to the (equally useless, equally ex-mustacheoed) Labour MP Ian Davidson.

Real football supporters, as opposed to glory-hunting bigots, would much rather have a competitive league with small crowds than a predictable league plagued by parasites spouting s***e about Irish history.
Reluctant Hero

Re: Old Firm Selling To Survive

agentmancuso wrote:
Real football supporters, as opposed to glory-hunting bigots, would much rather have a competitive league with small crowds than a predictable league plagued by parasites spouting s***e about Irish history.


Couldn't agree more.

However some real fans do follow teams that play in very competitive leagues with relatively small crowds and I think this is often forgotten by fans of teams in the SPL.

Just look at the First Division.

There is only 17 points between top and bottom with only 9 points covering positions 2 - 9.

If we coupled getting rid of the Old Firm to England with changing the league set up to two leagues of 20, I honestly don't think crowds over the season would suffer.  Playing each team only twice in a season instead of 4 times would break the monotony of it all and fans would probably be more willing to travel to matches if they are only going to visit that stadium once a season.
agentmancuso

Re: Old Firm Selling To Survive

Reluctant Hero wrote:

However some real fans do follow teams that play in very competitive leagues with relatively small crowds and I think this is often forgotten by fans of teams in the SPL.

Just look at the First Division.

There is only 17 points between top and bottom with only 9 points covering positions 2 - 9.

If we coupled getting rid of the Old Firm to England with changing the league set up to two leagues of 20, I honestly don't think crowds over the season would suffer.  Playing each team only twice in a season instead of 4 times would break the monotony of it all and fans would probably be more willing to travel to matches if they are only going to visit that stadium once a season.


Of course. Real competition would go a long way to keeping crowd sizes up. The 1st division is a far better league - I'm heading down to Dumfries to see Thistle tomorrow.
darkside

2-2 and ye wer lucky
agentmancuso

Tuffy was the man of the match without a doubt, but 2-2 was probably a fair result overall. Very entertaining it was too.

Strange pies down that way - they appear to contain mince rather than that strange grey stuff common to other football grounds.
Rinty

A local guy, Kris Doolan, who as the same school as my son scored on what I think was his Partick debut.  They signed him a couple of weeks ago from the forces of darkness.
Scott2006

Quote:
A local guy, Kris Doolan, who as the same school as my son scored on what I think was his Partick debut.  They signed him a couple of weeks ago from the forces of darkness.


Shocked  Cool I didn't know he was signed from the Vatican City Boys Club.  Laughing  Laughing

Seeing as a certain other member of the forum has stopped posting... it seemed only only fair to put  one in the empty net...[/b]
Scott2006

[quote="Rinty"]
Quote:
A local guy, Kris Doolan, who as the same school as my son scored on what I think was his Partick debut.  They signed him a couple of weeks ago from the forces of darkness.


Shocked  Cool I didn't know he was signed from the Strathclyde Police Strollers Club.  Laughing  Laughing

In the interests of balance...
Rinty

As I said, he WAS signed from Auchinleck Talbot, the only team and supporters where vicious and vile sectarian attacks are to be welcomed and are entirely justified Smile
Scott2006

Ah Ayrshire Junior football... after the re-organisation they now come to the big city... and play the likes of Maryhill or Petershill... "My hill is better than your hill"... local clubs for local people.

It probably take a good three or four hundred years to eradicate sectarianism... or maybe that is being a bit on the optimistic side. Smile
William_Cleland

agentmancuso wrote:
That's a pity. I often disagree with you, but you do provide a different point of view. It's seems like an odd reaction to a mild expression of curiosity at your signature.


Someone with a three digit IQ would probably be able to figure out that it was merely the straw that broke the camel's back. You used to go on and on about the evils of tribalism. See if you can discern from these links why I am turned off Scottish nationalism in a big way these days based on the knowledge that I agree almost entirely with the narrator in the google.com video clip:-

http://video.google.com/videoplay...050&ei=CefMSZOuOpSowgPUqZjiDQ

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/...tyle/education/article1290365.ece

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article5375699.ece

Over and out probably permanently this time.
agentmancuso

Welcome back.

I must confess to being rather in the dark about what the question of separate Muslim schools, or the origin of the Hokey Cokey or the opinions of Atheist-in-Chief Mr Dawkins have to do with Scottish nationalism.  Question

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