| Archive for Our Scotland - www.our-scotland.org Scottish Politics Discussion Forum / Messageboard - Dedicated to online discussion about Scottish Politics and an Independent Scotland, as well as Scottish Society today. We also have a section dedicated to Banter, Sport and Recommended Sites. |
| Reluctant Hero |
Old Firm To EnglandJust go.Go now. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/r/rangers/8297988.stm |
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| landg |
please let us go.
did anyone see peter lawells rant today, comparing the 'tragedies' celtic have suffered to man utd's. "If you look at our story and compare it to Manchester United: the beginnings, the triumphs, the tragedies, the characters, they are almost identical''. said peter today. yes i can get a link if i have too. can someone enlighten me? what is the tragedy in celtics history compared man utd's? |
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| William_Cleland |
It would rapidly mean the end of Scottish football as a separate entity if it happens and a UK league structure and national team would soon emerge. People who support Scottish independence should see the failure to comfortably accommodate Scotland's top two clubs in a Scottish national structure as a major problem. As recently as the mid-80s things were very different in that regard because provincial clubs like Dundee United and Aberdeen could take on the giants of the European game and win. | ||||||||
| landg |
nope? thought not. liwell making rubbish up again. |
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| Rinty |
I dont think that this is unique to scotland William, or even to football. The game has changed dramatically in the last couple of decades. Like society in general, there has been a focus on the top with the resources becoming channeled towards the top and the gap between rich and poor getting wider. | ||||||||
| The Lithgae Jambo |
s**t, if self-determination is to be based on which league our football clubs play in, then I've been pursuing the wrong arguments for all these years. |
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| Rinty |
personally I think that the scottish game would survive and some of the next bigger clubs would eventually be better off.
I once read that Livingston and Hibs, in successive seasons, won the 1st Div and then had a 'good' season in the SPL following promotion. Yet, both clubs sold less tickets to their home fans during the 'succesful' season in the SPL than in their championship winning season in the league below. |
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| William_Cleland |
If Scotland actually is going to be a modern sovereign European nation in the years ahead you are not going to be able to pick and choose which Scottish sides to include in the Scottish league. That smacks of the ongoing ambiguity as to what represents the nation that is part and parcel of Scotland's incorporation into the UK with people constantly switching back and forth between Scotland and Britain in different contexts whenever it suits then. It is frankly bizarre to see SNP supporters wanting two highly successful Scottish clubs to leave the independent national structure that is already in place in the context of football. It strongly suggests that Scottish nationalism is not inclusive of all of Scotland's population and still hasn't come to terms with the massive level of immigration from the island of Ireland over the last 150 years. |
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| William_Cleland |
No Old Firm means close to Irish League level sponsorships and TV deals, which translates into the provincial clubs with large debts like Kilmarnock quickly slidng into liquidation and eventual part-time status for all but the likes of Hibs, Hearts (assuming Romanov hasn't turned Tynecastle into a Tesco or a set of flats) and Aberdeen. Those clubs could all reasonably aspire to be part of a two tier Premiership setup as well so once the precedent is set by the Old Firm they wouldn't hang around long in a diminished competition with only a small fraction of the media interest that the SPL currently receives and soon the EPL would effectively be the BPL. Then it would be game over for the national team courtesy of the likes of Jack Warner who have always resented the four Home Nation FAs ongoing high level of influence within FIFA through the International Football Board. Celtic clearly couldn't care less about jeopardising the status of the SFA as a separate entity. Rangers are more wary, which is why they tend to talk up another Atlantic League scenario involving clubs from a number of smaller European nations. |
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| Rinty |
I dont think that we should automatically assume that we will become the Irish leagues. And anyway, those leagues are themselves changing with the new dynamics in football.
I would think that following Killie, Hibs, Motherwell etc might be more attractive, post old-firm, as they can actually win the league and qualify for the Champiopns League. the new set-up in the CL mean that champions in smaller countries have a better chance of qualifying so the Scottish leagues could be alongside other similar sized nations like Norway, Cyprus, Finland and actually get through to the group stages. the evidence I quoted re Hibs and Livingston suggests that fans will turn up in higher numbers if they can win whatever league they are in. And, of course. football is a bigger deal culturally in Scotland than in Ireland, Cyprus etc. Kilmarnock pointed out last season that they now make very little from the old firm as their home games are covered by TV leading to moving the fixture and lesser crowds which eats up the money from hosting the TV. If there was a Great Britain league I dont think that many if any of the scottish teams outside of the old firm would survive at a very high level. |
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| The Lithgae Jambo |
What a load of nonsense. The leagues our football teams play in has got sod-all to do with us being a "modern sovereign European nation". |
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| Rinty |
My personal view is that the way forward to protect the differing interests of the big clubs in small leagues and the remaining clubs in those leagues (eg Old Firm, portugese big three, dutch big three, copenhagen, anderlecht and others) is an extension to the european competitions.
This years new format of CL and Europa League means a slightly weaker group stage in the CL, opening it up to champions from smaller nations, and a stronger second competition, with more runners up in bigger leagues going there instead of the CL. I dont see the merit in having two competitions any more. A european competition with 16 groups of 6 teams would generate enough extra income to help big clubs survive in smaller leagues and, at the same time, create more opportunities for other clubs in the smaller leagues and champions of even smaller leagues to qualify. A straight knockoput competition for champions only, running alongside this, would be good too. To accommodate this most countries would have to reduce the amount of domestic games. In Scotland this could be done easiest by increasing the size of the top league, sharing the money around more clubs. |
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| William_Cleland |
Tell that to teams like Olimpija Ljubljana, Vardar Skopje and Buducnost Podgorica. They'd love to still be in the old Yugoslav league playing against Red Star and Partizan regularly rather than being stuck playing against part-time teams with a few hundred supporters in diddy leagues hardly anybody cares about. A separate national league for ALL of the clubs located within a newly independent country is one of the direct consequences of full national sovereignty. Rinty's notion that no other Scottish clubs could do well in a British league environment seems absolutely bizarre to me. Aberdeen and Hearts are both easily comparable in stature to the likes of Stoke City or Burnley and an amalgamated Dundee team and Hibs would not be too far behind. There are, therefore, at least 6 Scottish clubs who could reasonably aspire to be in the two division 36 club Premiership proposed by Bolton even if it's unlikely that they would all manage to do it simultaneously at any given point in time. The fairy tales spread by OFGTF bigots about the likes of Kilmarnock not suffering financially if they don't play the OF are also myopic in the extreme. The only games that broadcasters are interested in paying significant rights fees for are those that involve the Old Firm. Lose those two clubs and TV money will fall to a small fraction of what it is now as will naming rights sponsorships for the three main national competitions, shirt and trackside advertising etc. Meanwhile, the SFL clubs would still be demanding their annual indexed linked payment dating back to the time of the SPL breakaway out of the diminished revenues generated by an SPL with no OF participation. When those factors are combined that could easily translate into a seven figure loss in revenue for provincial SPL teams and with some of those clubs already carrying multimillion debts that require massive debt servicing charges that would mean part-time football, relegation and ultimately in some cases outright liquidation. |
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| The Lithgae Jambo |
As I said, the league our teams play is not a determinant of our being "a modern sovereign European nation" and to suggest otherwise is somewhat disingenuous. |
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| William_Cleland |
The idea that Scotland could be independent and that Rangers and Celtic could play in an English league structure in the aftermath is completely bonkers and it says something about modern Scottish nationalism that many people are delusional enough to believe that UEFA would allow that.
Even without independence it is a breathtaking case of people wanting to have their cake and eat it too. The anomaly of top Welsh clubs playing in England's league structure is tolerated for reasons of historical precedence and because Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham are lower division teams but if highly visible Champions League level clubs from Scotland started trying to do it as well there would inevitably be a major backlash over Scotland's ability to field a national team, because many people outside the British Isles find it completely inexplicable and deeply resent it. If people want to have a separate national team then the integrity of the Scottish game as a fully separate entity from that of England needs to be maintained. This issue should be as important to Tartan Army types as not having a UK team at the 2012 Olympics but some people are so filled with envy and spite where the Old Firm are concerned that they could end up pulling the roof down on their own heads and destroying what they claim to love. |
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| The Lithgae Jambo |
I still fail to see how the league which Scottish teams play in will somehow impact upon our ability to be ""modern sovereign European nation" or as a "major problem" to be overcome in our quest for independence as you suggested.
I guess that the wee Rangers better take note. |
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| William_Cleland |
The reason you probably fail to see that first bit is because you have gone off on a bizarre tangent of your own (based on a misinterpretation of a small piece of an earlier post that you replied to in isolation) that I have had no interest in joining you on. On the second bit you should maybe ponder how keen Barcelona fans would be to leave La Liga for a separate Catalan league and how that might sway their outlook if there ever were an independence referendum there. The SNP claims to be a year away from attempting to hold a referendum and this thread started with an SNP activist telling Scotland's two biggest and most successful clubs to leave for the English league structure. That would be completely surreal anywhere else in Europe but in a Scottish context people seem to find it normal. That suggests there is very deep tribalism in Scottish society related to immigration from the island of Ireland and that a genuine sense of shared nationhood has not fully coalesced in the aftermath of that. |
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| The Lithgae Jambo |
It's you who suggested it.
Are you now retracting what you said ? |
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| William_Cleland |
I wrote that and you misinterpreted what I meant by it. I am not going to join you on a tangent to the thread based on your misinterpretation rather that my own arguments that I have now repeated ad nauseam. I won't follow up any more posts unless you have something new and/or interesting to say at this point. | ||||||||
| The Lithgae Jambo |
I think what you said was quite clear. It was also quite ridiculous as you now appear to realise. |
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| Ultra |
If the old firm do eventually move to either the EPL or new Atlantic league, they may well take alot of fans from these so called smaller clubs with them.
Football is an entertainment business. If you aren't being entertained and the old firm are local and playing better opposition, you may well be attracted along to the higher quality games with better atmosphere than some of the rubbish the lower league or lower table clubs in the SPL have to offer. As the population spread across Scotland from the West of Scotland and Ireland, these supporters did not support their local team. They stuck with the old firm through family or religious connections. |
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| Shagpile |
Could not agree more. This is what Sep Blatter wants to see..... an own goal of greater significance we could not score if we tried! Fuel to the grievence of the FIFA governing committee. Why indeed should the Scots, Welsh, NI and ENGLISH FAs continue to exist when clubs can choose their domicile and governing body when it suits? Much as I agree with the sentiments of RH...... THIS IS a huge fly in the ointment. The Old Firm should hang their heads in shame! Yet another example of the damage they'd do in the blink of an eye to Scottish Football because it doesn't suit THEM! Bloody Hell, being guarenteed European compitition year in year out, their monopoly on ALL domestic trophies (more or less) is not enough! Times are indeed hard...... perhaps they should follow the advice their fans freely give to other clubs. ie MERGE! They screwed the SFL, almost found themselves in an SPL of 2 teams and it's still not enough for them! It's really about time the SFA exercised their independent muscle and bluntly tell them to wind their F'in' Necks in. The other SPL Clubs should resign from the SPL again until the Old Firm give up FOREVER any notion of leaving Scottish Football. Of course...... as Companies they're free at any time to relocate in any part of the world and affiliate themselves with the FA under who's jurisdiction they fall under...... They wont do that though, THEY want their cake AND eat it. A PAIR O' SPOILT BRATS, nothing more. Arrogant to the extrime due to the successes bigotry has brought them. To any rule there can be a just and fair exception. Monaco competeing in the French league for example. The Old Firm believe, however that THEY are the exception to every rule. |
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| Shagpile |
Now, is the time IMHO, to rid ourselves of this wierd anomally. Berwick Rangers should be invited to either relocate or resign from the SFL.
The SFL has passed it's sell by date too. Clubs; left behind by demography, are blocking ambitious, welthier and better attended Junior Clubs from getting into the Top Flight. In the interests of Scottish Football, the SFL should be reformed NOW, and the SPL scrapped. |
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| Shagpile |
AGREED...... AGAIN! EUEFA woud have to be the ruling FA for a drivell like an "Atlantic League", but that's NOT in their remit. NO FA, subordinate to EUEFA, has the authority to govern such a league. That would be up to FIFA to recognise a new FA........ and they aint gonna damage any grass roots FA, by allowing a "Prima Donna" multi/international medly of also rans to compete/rival the best teams each FA sends to European Competition. |
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| Stevie |
I would be very pleased if the old firms would just once and for all f**k off. | ||||||||
| Shagpile |
Moi aussi, mais Le BBC pandeurs toute a les biggoted b'stards. |
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| landg |
i really wish we could and leave scottish footbal to become even more of an irish backwater. still no word on celtic's tragedy that is like man utd's? |
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| Reluctant Hero |
I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I read that. |
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| Ultra |
Or put up a decent comment it would seem..... |
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| landg |
when we leave, and we will, i know who will be laughing and who will be crying. your welcome to your arbroaths and kilmarnocks and motherwells. when we go you will have found your level. |
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| Shagpile |
He did.... your intelect is the problem. Oh I know..... you'll want links to that too (without providing links to support your own case).......... normal plebicite, is it not? Personally, I valued your post at 'not worth comment', but hay, that's Shagpile for ya! |
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| Ultra |
More evidence of being un-intelligent from Shagpile. Can't even spell intellect. 
Even comments on things he admits are 'Not worth comment' Hanging on to my every word as he loves the attention.
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| Shagpile |
Do you understand when I say FART?
Because my response is worthy of mention.
MmWaHaHaaaaaaaa.................. GTF F'wit! |
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| jamesieboy |
The reason why so many people in Scotland, especially followers of other teams, do not like the Old Firm has got absolutely nothing to do with jealousy and second rate status, Mr Cleland.
It is because at one all you get rammed down your throat is F**k the Pope, Derry's Walls, Rule Brittania, GSTQ and all that pish, not forgetting Irish rebel songs and praise for IRA murderers and ludicrous claims about being the victims in Scottish society on the other side. The whole thing is nauseating and I cannot for the life of me understand why any intelligent thinking individual can go there. |
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| William_Cleland |
Your post is fully in line with what I have written earlier in the thread:-
That suggests there is very deep tribalism in Scottish society related to immigration from the island of Ireland and that a genuine sense of shared nationhood has not fully coalesced in the aftermath of that. |
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| Stevie |
Since this thread is still on the go, I feel I have to quote myself. The one thing I did admire about football was that it was originally local lads from the local community supported by local folk. Now the big bucks have run amock... a pox on both their houses. I should have nicely alienated myself from everyone on the site now, a good day's work. |
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| Reluctant Hero |
If everyone followed your example and went to watch the "higher quality games", then there would only be two teams left in the league as all other clubs will have gone out of business. The Old Firm are treating the rest of Scottish Football with an incredible lack of respect. It's like being in one job, but openly telling your colleagues that you are much better than them, and openly looking for jobs elsewhere. It wouldn't be very long before you were brought down a peg or two and I completely agree with Shagpile. The other SPL clubs should resign from the league and tell the Old Firm to GTF. Surely it can't be very long until the other clubs call their bluff? It is true that Aberdeen and Dundee United used to successfully compete in Europe during the 80's. Why was that? Because we had a competitive Premier League. These days we can narrow it down to two teams that will win the league before the season kicks off. And the Old Firm must take some of the blame for that as well. For if any player shows an ounce of promise in another team, they are snapped up by the Old Firm and left to languish in the reserves, just so they can't play against them. This "higher quality" Ultra talks about, I just don't see it. The Old Firm are marginally better than the rest of the SPL, but they are far from the teams they think they are. Just ask Hamburg and Unirea (I know - who?!). They will be asking to joing the English Premiership next. But I'm not a glory hunter, I don't follow Rangers or Celtic, so maybe I'm missing this higher quality. I follow Ross County, because although I now live in Glasgow, it is the local team where I come from. When I go and see them play, and I do whenever I can (how many OF fans go to matches?), the actual physical act of going to support them sometimes means much more than what the final result is. Ofcourse, I would love to see them win, but it is also about standing with my fellow Highlanders. It's about supporting where you come from. It's about knowing what someone is talking about when they mention Donnie Melon It's about a way of life. So Ultra I'll gladly take this "lower league rubbish" over your superior Old Firm any day. Anyway it looks as if the Premiership have just signed a new deal with Barclays, so it looks like your ambitions to leave Scotland have been thwarted for another 3 years. It just means the rest of us will have to suffer listening to Old Firm crap even longer. |
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| Ultra |
It's not my 'superior' old firm as I don't support any of them. However, the smaller league teams for a fact voted to accept Setanta against the advice of the old firm and Aberdeen who knew it would be far better to stick with Sky. So these wee SPL clubs have nobody to blame but themselves for the position they find themselves in now financially. The old firm can GTF. But if you actually do some research and read the PWC reports each year on the state of the game in Scotland and financial state of the game you would quickly realize most of the SPL clubs would not survive if the old firm left as fewer people would be watching the games or having an interest in football in general these days. Far more wider choice of entertainment available. No old firm means far less TV revenue, sponsorship, gate receipts, merchandize sales etc etc. Most SPL teams would not survive as full time clubs and would find their level as would the remaining Scottish league clubs. Most people who watch football for entertainment would rather watch the top teams in Europe play than a local team like Ross County. I bet there are more old firm fans in the North of Scotland and people who support top English teams like Man U rather than the wee teams. What is the average gate of Ross County? Tells you all you need to know. If the old firm do move into a far superior league let's see how many of these so called non glory hunting fans ditch their local clubs and support the old firm. Or have a wee Scottish team in the SFL along with supporting one of the big Scottish teams in another Atlantic type league. Aberdeen and Dundee Utd want to leave the SPL too. |
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| Stevie |
He who laughs alone laughs in a hollow echoey chamber, forgotten and unheard. Bye bye. |
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| landg |
we won't be alone, we will have arsenal not falkirk to keep us company. |
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| Stevie |
Best off to England where you're happiest then, it's all too the good that the Brits are seen as being just that... Brits.
So long, farewell, auf Wiedersehen, goodbye. It a jolly good idea, just do it quick as you can. Oh by the way, Celtic can f**k off too. |
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| William_Cleland |
Ibrox and Parkhead are not suddenly going to be moved to England. Rangers and Celtic are inherently Scottish clubs whether you like it or not and Scottish football being unable to accommodate the two best supported clubs who between them attract a majority of the spectator interest in Scotland would ultimately lead to the death of Scottish football as a separate entity including the national team. Spite filled nationalists who can't see that will wind up destroying what they claim to love if they ever get their way.
As for why this issue is surfacing now, the background is two fold. Scotland's UEFA coefficient is plummeting so automatic qualification for the Champions League will soon be a thing of the past. The Old Firm will fall even further back in terms of quality relative to top European teams once they can no longer budget for Champions League entry every season and the gap in quality with the rest of the SPL will narrow considerably. Secondly, the ability of Scottish clubs to run up multimillion debts in a risky speculate to accumulate sort of way is now a thing of the past after the credit crunch. Hence why Lloyds TSB (in the shape of their HBOS subsidiary) have placed a director on the Rangers board who is now calling the shots according to Walter Smith:- http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/2009/...e-to-deal-with-it-78057-21771890/ Hbos appointed Donald Muir to the Gers board nine days ago and the bank now has a major say in the running of the club. Muir will call the shots as they try to reduce a £30million debt and find someone to buy out owner Sir David Murray. MailSport understands Muir outlined his plans at a board meeting last week and the Ibrox hierarchy were left shocked. The bank will continue to seek buyers for as many players as they can during the January transfer window. And any offers put to stars looking for new contracts will be on much reduced terms. It has been made clear the bank's priority is not success on the field but sorting out the money mess and finding a buyer. The top dogs at Ibrox aren't comfortable with the situation but have to accept it. Lloyds TSB are looking for any way they can to recoup their losses as David Murray's business empire is currently in the process of unraveling. If they could somehow get Rangers out of the SPL that would be much easier to achieve but odds on it won't happen and we are going to see Scottish football return to the way things were before the Souness revolution. Bit of a backwater largely ignored outside Scotland with most top Scotland internationals eventually leaving for top English clubs and no top players arriving from outside to replace them with Old Firm clubs dominant most of the time but provincial clubs sometimes able to compete with them. As the new found diddy status of the Old Firm becomes increasingly obvious in the years ahead replica jerseys will no longer be such a popular fashion accessory for the Ned element looking for a boost in self-esteem and gloryhunting types and the armchair fan will start to follow the fortunes of top Premiership clubs instead. If the season ticket culture is ever lost and fans start to pick and choose which games to attend again as they did in the 70s and early 80s both clubs will be well and truly sunk financially. |
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| Shagpile |
I think I may have misunderstood a big part of your post..... Where and when have the Old Firm not been accomodated by Scotish football? One could argue for too long Scottish Football has ben all about Rangers and Celtic! BTW..... Did you know Rangers fans are now singing "You can stick your Tartan Army up your arse" on the Terraces? The problems in Scottish Football are RIVEN with sectarianism. The new "pc friendly machinations" of the Auld Firm, re... in particular; religeon, have concentrated absolutely nowt, given a headline or two in the media. I would have said that not all the problems in Scotish Football, began with and have continued with the Auld Firm, now I see that it totally has. Protectionism has done for many countries, what the Auld Firm has done for Scottish Football. The SFL, discarded like an old shoe, by the Auld Firm. Rather than use their influence to change the SFL..... they left. It could have been sooooo different had the Auld Firm used their domminance in the game to protect Scottish Football. CLOSED the SFL to better clubs and teams. CLOSED oppertunity to concentrate focus on Billy or Tim. Speaking of which....... Rangers fans would switch to Hearts, Celtic to Hibs if either went down the tubes....... it's a F'in' Sad Mindset Scottish Football needs to ditch. Evidence is in the lack of leadership in the SFA. Clueless whether or not Football is the game or is it the Auld Firm? Tony Banks as Sports Minister first raised the prospect of a British Football Team..... long before the OG was a twinkle in Seb's eye. Now it is objective full on by the British Government! Not even the Torys did that! So where do you really stand...... Billy? |
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| William_Cleland |
That isn't a rejection of Scotland just of the Tartan Army. Says something about people's grasp of Scottish history on here that nobody has ever realised that my username refers to one of the Covenanter heroes who fought the Jacobites at Drumclog and Bothwell Brig and died a martyr's death at Dunkeld. Grown men prancing about in pseudo-Jacobite pantomine outfits have my complete disdain given I see the Covenanters as being Scotland's forgotten heroes in a 17th century context so I have no problem whatsoever with the underlying sentiment behind the chant. My only reservations would be with the phrasing and the manner in which it is expressed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Cleland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Drumclog http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bothwell_Brig http://www.covenanter.org.uk/Drumclog/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dunkeld As for your final question the answer is for the Scotland of John Brown, James Renwick, Margaret Wilson, the weavers in 1820 and Keir Hardie rather than that of the phony Victorian era Highland fad invented by Sir Walter Scott, the shortbread tin and cringeworthy national embarrassments like Harry Lauder or Jesse Rae. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIwGD_XQNSM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOad0FU9zF8 Genuine football supporters wear jeans and a t-shirt like the real Tartan Army did back in the 1970s before the Scotland team was hijacked by politically-motivated "footsoldiers" in skirts and jimmy wigs. |
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| landg |
indeed. you can stick your pish stained, skid marked, drunken, bum flashing at grannies,white middle class tertin ermy up you arse. | ||||||||
| Shagpile |
Good post btw, sincerely. I also have reservations with the prasing and manner in which they express their singing. I seriously doubt however, that the Ibrox faithfull seriously engage with the train of thought you articulated clearly...... and talking of clarity, Landg seems to express his not so unique originality after your post. You did not say how Scottish Football has failed to accomodate the Auld Firm though.
Re read my post...... understand fully why you were miffed at that. I was not meaning to have a go. Failed in my (not so funny) humerous attempt to enquire if you were a Rangers fan.
Says who? I thought we were talking about football..... yet you're right. There is a political side to the bigotry espoused by the Auld Firm. Baned from singing about Popes, ropes and Fenians....... they still need to complete their 90 minutes of bigotry....... otherwise it aint cricket. The squaddies Landg elates at are the very ones dressed to kill in their Walter Scott shortbread tin regalia. THAT KIND of Tartan Army is OK though. |
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| landg |
even better than the oatcakes and shortbread thread. you sir, are comedy gold. |
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| Shagpile |
Aw thanks Landg! BTW, do you have a link to that intelligent post you made? I've looked everywhere but I just can't find it. 
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| landg |
looks like we sail in the same ship then does'nt it thicko. |
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| Stevie |
Go. | ||||||||
| Shagpile |
Incapable of making anything other than a personal attack? Are you waiting for William to make another post for you to laud? If we are in the same ship Landg..... I'm the captain, and you the stow away. |
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| Stevie |
No, he's waiting for Ultra. | ||||||||
| Shagpile |
Ah...... but I doubt if Ultra could tell us where the Auld firm have not been accommodated by Scottish Football either. I'm sure Landg can..... NOT! |
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| Ultra |
How about when the rest of the SPL clubs voted to go with the Setanta TV deal when Celtic, Rangers, and Aberdeen advised them not to as it would make more business sense to stick with Sky who are far more financially secure and world wide media players? Oh dear. Looks how Scottish Football has turned out now. Even more of a laughing stock. Several clubs have gone out of business or are on the brink. Attendences are falling as the clubs can't afford decent players these days. |
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| William_Cleland |
Sure there is some bigotry involved but do you have any concept of how many Old Firm supporters go home to a partner from the other side of the divide these days? The political discourse on this subject has more to do with the realities of middle aged politician's childhoods in the 60s and 70s that helped to shape their world view than with Scotland in 2009. There was a half-time birthday announcement for a young Rangers supporter called Declan at Ibrox last season much to the crowd's amusement and that is the wave of things to come. A generation is growing up in which it is normal to have both Rangers and Celtic supporting relatives. Given that new reality for the younger generation it's highly debatable whether the sectarian divide actually is the major one in Scottish society nowadays. A contrast can be drawn with the way in which race is America's fixation and how this leads to the American prison system having a major problem with race based criminal gangs. In Scottish cities it tends to be one scheme against another on a purely territorial basis at street level and in prison the main divide tends to be Edinburgh vs. Glasgow. The media agenda in Scotland is largely controlled by Catrionas and Torquils so the element of pathetic anti-English bigotry that fixates a large portion of the Scotland support is never confronted and only the prejudices of lumpen proles in the west of Scotland are ever seen as a problem. It's truly sad the way that some people have defined their entire identity based on not being English in the aftermath of the Empire but have had to latch onto a 19th century music hall joke image of what it means to be Scottish in the process because they come from a social stratum that spent 300 years trying to be just like the English in speech and manner so they could participate as junior partners in crime where the Empire was concerned. |
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| Stevie |
Couldn't Rangers and Celtic find a way of completely physically re-establishing themselves in England and thus take away with them their nasty little sectarian misery to whatever poor unfortunate English town they happen to land in.
Well, I can dream. |
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| landg |
now that is a weel put and articulate post. telling it how it is. keep that up sir and they will be modrating your posts. |
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| Stevie |
The anti-English thing is dying but the music hall Scottishness is in your head, I don't think anyone here on this board is of that ilk. The vast majority of Scots aren't : who are you talking about? |
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| landg |
the anti-english thing is alive and well. music hall scottishness is in your head 
http://ourscotland.myfreeforum.org/about6613.html post 2. FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOM.day. |
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| Stevie |
I see you're imbibing again.
And you've resurrected your joke again. Jolly good. |
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| Ultra |
Ha ha. The vast majority of Scots couldn't care less about Scottishness or portraying the shortbread tin image the SNP Home Coming celebrations would have us believe. Another epic SNP failure! As for ilk's on this board.... http://ourscotland.myfreeforum.or...Andrew_s_Day_Rally_about6613.html |
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| Stevie |
It's interesting that you see a lack of interest in one's own country as an SNP failure.
Is your lack of interest in your own country an SNP failure? You look for SNP failure in every post you make but the reality is the SNP is doing well and will have it's day in the future. |
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| Ultra |
Maybe in your warped utopia FREEEEEEEDOM reality. So because I an not interested in independence that makes me not interested in Scotland. Ha ha. Do you even live here? |
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| Stevie |
So then, 30% of Scots who wish to see the political government of Scotland reinstated via democratic elections are warped. Well, fortunately the world has more than just your opinion. The film Braveheart is quite magnificent and you and the other Brits wish to denigrate it : it clearly presses your buttons. |
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| Ultra |
Braveheart is a farce. I suggest you watch Scotland History which is about to be repeated on the BBC if you want the real version of history and not some highland misty eyed version like Braveheart which is work of fiction. Yes Scotland is so good that an Aussie played the main role and it was shot entirely on location in New Zealand. FREEEEEEEDOM! You already have a Scottish Government. So the other 70% majority should just have their wishes ignored to suit the vocal minority? Anyways, this is a football thread. So please try and keep it on topic and not do the usual independence fundamentalists trick of taking it off topic. |
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| Stevie |
I see you have landg's joke as well.
Creative. Braveheart is drama not farce and it's a work of fiction and not historically correct. I take it we would have to have a film about how we won WWII single handed to please your Brit sensibilities. As far as 70%, it's not it's just another 21% to obtain the majority, don't exaggerate. And the topic is, yes the little orange men can p**s off along with the little green men. And take their sad sectarian prejudices with them. |
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| Ultra |
I would say Braveheart is for plastic Scots like yourself who preach the virtues of becoming independent but don't actually want to live here yourself. Am I right? So it's quite laughable all the stereotypical nonsense you come out with not realizing things have moved on. |
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| Stevie |
You are full of things you would say. | ||||||||
| Ultra |
Least I ain't a plastic Scot who is complaining about plastic Irish when chances are the last time you saw any sort of walk or attended a football game was years ago. Liberté
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| Stevie |
On and on... | ||||||||
| azzuri |
...in the interest of pedantry; it should be noted that most of Braveheart was filmed in Ireland, not New Zealand, due to the Irish government being able to offer the production company tax breaks and the use of the Irish Army Reserve as extras for free in battle scenes. Various 'village scenes' were filmed in Glen Nevis, near Fort William.
Ironically enough, the nonsensical fiction that is 'Braveheart' only goes to show how toothless Scotland actually is due to us not being able to offer similiar incentives whilst within the United Kingdom. Nonsensical fiction it may be; but it's done absolute wonders for Scotland's tourist industry. |
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| Stevie |
I love the film as a cinema fan in general and as an independentist who is grateful to Randal Wallace for his script masterpiece.
My own hobby is writing screenplays and would love to do work on a Robert Bruce TV series. And yes the little green and orange men can still ... |
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| landg |
[quote="azzuri
Nonsensical fiction it may be; but it's done absolute wonders for Scotland's tourist industry.[/quote] and the snp. 
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| Stevie |
I would think it helps the SNP a bit with some people but the SNP was polling b between 27% and 31% years before the film was released.
What it did do was make people more aware of William Wallace. Historically it's not accurate in detail but overall the general events are about right (with the exception of Sophie Marceau the French princess) . |
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| landg |
DEAR GOD, you are actually using braveheart as some kind of tool of nationalism. honestly, this place gets better by the day. |
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| Stevie |
I said, the film made people more aware of Wallace.
Don't know where you got that from. I take it you have the shakes. |
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| landg |
this is anothe r reason why i wanted a GB team, beside the fact i liked the idea i'm sure it would have made it a smoother run onto a british leageu. | ||||||||
| Rinty |
The new set-up from this season makes it more likely that the old firm will have more income from the UEFA competitions in future, in my mind.
Alongside the reworking of the UEFA cup into the europa cup was the splitting the CL qualifying draw into sections for winners and runners up. So if Scotland falls out of the automatic qualifying spot (which has been the case for as many seasons as not) we will be likely to face a qualifying round against teams of a lower standard than us. The scottish runners up will play other runners-up (i.e. celtic/arsenal/moscow this season) but will have the safety net of the europa cup with three more home matches in europe. It will be harder for scotlands runners up to make the CL but easier for the champions. The new set up has meant a stronger uefa cup but has also meant a slight lowering of standards in the CL due to the inclusion of more Champions from smaller countries. Our diminshing standards are part of of change in the focus of world football with more and more money being centred on the english league, leaving other countries 'big' clubs struggling to compete for players. 5 years ago Celtic could challenge English teams for big players, both in transfer fees and wages. At that time Celtic had a higher player budget than all in England expect the top four and Spurs, Rangers came about 10th or 11th. Now, Hull etc can offer 50k per week and 6m etc for players Rangers and Celtic can no longer do that. The second tier in England has emerged as the worlds 5th or 6th biggest league in terms of finance. Outside of the old firm, the other teams can no longer compete with the likes of Blackpool, Plymouth and Crystal Palace and the same process is taking place on a different scale. The Old Firm joining an EPL2 is one option that I think might nake things better. But, I prefer the option of further extension of the euro competitions into more games. I also think that summer football would be a reform that would advance the scottish domestic game, with or without the old firm. |
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| landg |
good post, fair do's. |
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| William_Cleland |
Thankfully this issue has been put to rest as the Premiership chairmen have "overwhelmingly rejected" the idea of the Old Firm entering the Premiership:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/eng_prem/8353937.stm |
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| Stevie |
I was counting on them f*****g off to England.
Oh well... |
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| William_Cleland |
Despite being a Scottish nationalist you were hoping to see the emergence of an elite British league structure, just months before the SNP are alleged to want a referendum on Scottish independence and can't even see the intellectual inconsistency. | ||||||||
| Stevie |
William, I don't pretend to fully understand the sectarian hatred between Rangers and Celtic.
But Scotland is better off without it. Anyway, the English told them to f**k off in short sharp terms which is amusing. |
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| landg |
easy. some rangers fans hate catholics and the irish. some celtic fans hate protestants and the scottish/british. |
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| Stevie |
Well, they're stuck here.
The English didn't want them. Having seen the violence from the Rangers fans there, one wonders not. |
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| landg |
quite right, the poppy day disgrace from celtic fans which was highlighted much more in england than scotland will have further cemented the standpoint of 'we don't want this scum in our league'. |
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| William_Cleland |
You have yet to explain how having a British rather than a Scottish league structure removes Rangers and Celtic from Scotland. Either way their games would be played in Scotland and the Old Firm would have a majority of the fan base and media coverage in a Scottish context. |
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