Archive for Our Scotland - www.our-scotland.org Scottish Politics Discussion Forum / Messageboard - Dedicated to online discussion about Scottish Politics and an Independent Scotland, as well as Scottish Society today. We also have a section dedicated to Banter, Sport and Recommended Sites.
 



       Our Scotland - www.our-scotland.org Forum Index -> Scottish Politics and Independence
LAz

question

I am thinking that it should be our goal to spread the word for this in some other places?

I have tried to talk about this in another forum, well a few, and I am having trouble in one.

http://www.blocparty.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1477&start=0

What should I say to counter that British person who seems to denounce the independence as something dumb?


And how should we go about to spread the word and gain support for independence outside Scottish communities? I am thinking to toss the goals around to other ones who want independence, like say Quebec forums or Republika Srpska forums?
SLG

What's he saying? You need to be registered to see your link.
LAz

Two say this... what should my response be?




Quote:
Dude... I have no problem with Scotland breaking off if they want to, we are not tyrannical beasts... I do have a problem with people like you saying they should break off for the sake of it. And FYI the UK subsidies Scotland every year vasts amount of money which are out of proportion to subsidising poorer rural regions within England itself... please read up on coastal boarder laws, and the act of union, and Welsh devolution's popularity when in comparison with Scottish ( 25% bothered to vote, and only 50% thought it was a good idea) and the Welsh language itself is still very much alive within Wales. Its Cornish you need to watch out for.


(edit: this guy also called me a total idiot... : / I guess that some british really don't like non-UKers openly talking about Scottish independence)







Quote:
These two points combine together into one main point. Scotland has an oddly high number of public sector workers compared to the rest of england. this means that although there might be a higher amount of tax raised compared to the population there is also a higher amount of tax payers money going into this large public sector. [Statistics from www.scotland.gov.uk].
l
Finally it is almost impossible to compare the City of London to scotland if you do not give the same figures for both. 12th compared to 3rd is quite a large difference...

Please be more accurate with your stats so that things can be compared rather than finding supposed evidence for your own opinions.
Shake It Up

I have a great book that discusses all of these issues (someone on this forum refered me to it) called Scottish Independence: A practical guide. It is written partly by an editor of the scotsman, the economist and a bbc scotland guy, and is certainly not biased towards independence. Murkens is the name of one of the authors. It gives a comprehensive list of the arguments for and against independence and looks at referendum issues, negiotiations between Scotland and UK and then talks about Scotland in the international context.
Remember lots of people have never even seriously considered independence before becasue it has often been dismissed as being a crazy 'braveheart' sentimental idea. Now with the recent results in the elections, the debate will hopefully become more and more mainstream. have a look at the book.
LAz

But what else should I say to those blokes aside from that?
Hazel

LAz wrote:
But what else should I say to those blokes aside from that?


Isn't what "shake it up" just said enough? Your "bloke" is referred to some good reading and you do not have to present arguments pro or con. Invite him to use his head for more than knocking.
Hazel

Re: question

Quote:


And how should we go about to spread the word and gain support for independence outside Scottish communities? I am thinking to toss the goals around to other ones who want independence, like say Quebec forums or Republika Srpska forums?
[/quote]

"Closer to home?" I don't know where "home" is to you but, to Scotland, how about Wales, Northern Ireland and even, for a few, England itself?

Now, that is getting off-topic here but you did ask. Hazel
Shake It Up

WHat do you mean aside from that...? If you read that book, you will be able to set them straight on loads of issues. why dont you read the book and then use that to form your own arguments. The issue of coastal boundaries is addressed in the book above. Of course the UK would be entitled to much of the oil tax revenues but the majority of it belongs to scotland under international law. Plus, scottish shores are used for servicing vessels and the oil is piped and processed mostly on scottish territory therefore revenues would be collected by a scottish treasury...
Aventinian

Shake It Up wrote:
The issue of coastal boundaries is addressed in the book above. Of course the UK would be entitled to much of the oil tax revenues but the majority of it belongs to scotland under international law.


The present position is that oil belongs to the United Kingdom. There is no debate on that.

Equally, international law has never declared any method for drawing martime borders and boundaries between states. So it is silent on this matter.
Shake It Up

Aventinian wrote:
Shake It Up wrote:
The issue of coastal boundaries is addressed in the book above. Of course the UK would be entitled to much of the oil tax revenues but the majority of it belongs to scotland under international law.


The present position is that oil belongs to the United Kingdom. There is no debate on that.

Equally, international law has never declared any method for drawing martime borders and boundaries between states. So it is silent on this matter.


Of course the oil currently belongs to the UK because Scotland currently shares its natural resources with the other partners in the UK and is not independent, yet.

I imagine you think that if Scotland became independent it wouldn't be entitled to natural resources within its own territory. Scottish territory has been set out under UN law as shown in the link below: (v. interesting site)

http://www.un.org/Depts/los/LEGIS...ES/PDFFILES/GBR_1968_Order892.pdf

Please also refer to page 2 of the following document regarding the drawing of maritime borders: (also v. interesting article)

http://www.ejil.org/journal/Vol12/No1/120077.pdf

International law is not silent on the matter of drawing maritime borders...
LAz

Hazel wrote:
LAz wrote:
But what else should I say to those blokes aside from that?


Isn't what "shake it up" just said enough? Your "bloke" is referred to some good reading and you do not have to present arguments pro or con. Invite him to use his head for more than knocking.


Well, I can't really get the book at this time, and it would make me look low if I just said "this book explains it." They'd use that against me.




In the 10 good reasons for scottish independence topic, it says...

Quote:
Question 2.
Scotland could not survive without the Barnet formula handout from England.

The Barnett Formula is nothing more than a device which gives Scotland some of its own pocket money out of Scotlands pay packet which is taken by England. In 2002, Scotland contributed £42.7Billions to the UK Exchequer and received £18.1 Billions doled back in return via Barnet. It would be a much better idea to keep the £42.7 Billions as an Independent Country.


Would that be an effective way to tell them that their tax subsidies to scotland are not that generous, when taken into accoutn how much money scotland gives to the UK?








Quote:
"Closer to home?" I don't know where "home" is to you but, to Scotland, how about Wales, Northern Ireland and even, for a few, England itself?


That would be good, but the issue is how popular is independence in those regions? Wales is not like Catalonia, where most of the population speaks the native language. Welsh has been supressed over the centuries and is only now recently starting to come back. So I think it is too early for Welsh independence. As for Northern Ireland... that's too early too, because the catholics are still a minority. Someone there told me that the catholics have more kids, so if that is true it would be just a matter of time until they are a majority and could continue with their independence goal.
So I dunno, but I think that those two places are weak points. We need regions that are much closer to that or have much more support of the population, like Kurdistan or Abkhazia.
Hazel

The Catholics have to be in the majority before Northern Ireland can be Independent? You surely didn't mean that. If so, God save the good old USofA, Scotland, England, Wales and everywhere else. In how many independent countries are the Catholics in the majority?

All right. Maybe I am mis-reading. And we are supposed to be talking about Scotland. I'll go away. Hazel
LAz

Hazel wrote:
The Catholics have to be in the majority before Northern Ireland can be Independent? You surely didn't mean that. If so, God save the good old USofA, Scotland, England, Wales and everywhere else. In how many independent countries are the Catholics in the majority?

All right. Maybe I am mis-reading. And we are supposed to be talking about Scotland. I'll go away. Hazel


I thought that the protestants, British, there were the majority. They do not want to break off and are more than 50% of the population. Hence, this is the factor that's preventing their independence.
Hazel

Northern Ireland is such a tangled mess that I've no idea what goes on there. I think, though, that the object of cooler heads is to remove the religion element from the picture. It is hard to do but the hope is to do it. Otherwise, this will never be solved. Putting Catholics in the majority will only reverse the entire show.
VLK

Well, in Northern-Ireland old arch-enemies sit down in the same government even though they still don`t like each other any more than ever before. Perhaps the Scottish parties should learn something from them.
Hazel

That, my friend, is a lesson that the entire world needs to learn and enact. Wouldn't you agree?
mac

Shake it up, thanks for those links - feel a wee bit more educated on the legal side of the "It's Scotland's oil" question - thanks again - looks like we would have world opinion on our side...

       Our Scotland - www.our-scotland.org Forum Index -> Scottish Politics and Independence
Page 1 of 1
Create your own free forum | Buy a domain to use with your forum
Our Scotland Hit Counter 'Top Scottish Websites' - www.our-scotland.org Scottish Top Site - Topsites Top 100 Scottish Websites Our Scotland Forums Critical Acclaim ~ Politically Progressive Top Sites Tartan Army Topsites View Site Stats Our Scotland Blog Scottish Politics Scottish Lads