rangers f.c

abcdefg · rangers f.c

can any1 help put forward their own idea`s about scotlands rangers football and what they think where (1. the club stance on politics nd 2nd what do you think the true rangers fan think and vote on politics.)

it is an argument i am having wit m8s in the local . 1 mans view is( he is a dundee utd fan is as follows)

rangers strongly indentify themselves as british , hence waving the union jack and singing god save the queen. they vote tory(basicly english nationlists, and creators of the poll tax might i add) in their numbers.he knows i vote s.n.p and reckon i should suport a diferent club ,as he says orangmen and protestants are the ones holding onto false notions of brittishness and preventing a republic/referendum/independence,and he even back this up by saying i dont come from glasgow what that has to do with it gods knows or am i missing something.

“Rangers as a club have never done anything publicly to encourage Protestantism or Unionism

all thoughts welcome

Cymro

Parkhead will love this message! Rinty will have a thing or 2 to say too.

Personally I don't have much of a problem with Rangers. Most of my Wifes family support Rangers and I've enjoyed going to the pub to watch matches with some of her cousins and uncles. I'm probably going to head off to Ibrox with them this season at some point.

But I've also watched Celtic matches and would happily go and watch them too.

A few to many Union Jacks at Rangers matches for me, and other symbold of Britishness, but I can close my eyes and ears to that. I can't be doing with the bastardisation of the Billy Boys song - the one about Fenians etc. I've read the original lyrics and its not derrogatory in the slightest from what I gathered.

As far as I'm concerned Politics and Religion should stay out of football.

Aventinian · Re: rangers f.c

Highlander

macnumpty

Well, speaking as a Rangers fan and an SNP member myself, I don't think this is an issue where you have to square a circle: I support the football team, but I'm an Atheist not a Protestant, and the über-Unionist approach adopted by a small group of fans seems to apply more to Northern Ireland than to Scotland. There's also one school of thought that says that strand of the supporters could back the SNP as an anti-Labour thing.

Also, remember that Protestantism and Unionism only link up insofar as the Union has been seen as either the best way to promote Protestantism or the best way to hold back Catholicism, as you would have heard in old slogans such as "Home Rule is Rome Rule" and so forth. Frankly, I think that's an outdated approach (though the sentiment against Labour, which is seen as largely Catholic and sympathetic to Irish Republicanism, is the hangover from it) as I'd like to think of the modern Scottish establishment as being largely secular.

Just to touch on Britishness, I would remind people that the British state was borne out of James VI being Elizabeth I of England's closest living relative at the time of her death, and the political manoeuvres that took place over the subsequent century. Britain is an accident of royal bloodline and combined with political constructs. It was these two factors, rather than any initial popular movement, that laid the foundations for Britishness and British identity. Is Britishness false? Well, the fact that people like Aventinian and Highlander are willing to stand up for Britishness leads me to say that no, it isn't. But that doesn't make Britain, and by extension Britishness, any less artificial. (Just to open another can of worms, how would the 'North British' posters on here view an equally artificial common European identity?)

But in answer to the OP, I'm happy with my football team, I'm happy with my beliefs: political and otherwise. There's no circle to square, no balancing act to perform. You can support both Rangers and the SNP wih no difficulty!

Highlander

The same artificialness can be attributed to Scotland's creation. It was bloodlines of a royal family uniting a parts of Scotland with a Pictlish kingdom. Kenneth MacAlpin inheriting the pictish Kingdom due to his mother being pictish and so he became a King of both.

And why do people believe that Scotland is all "Scottish" they ignore all other cultures that were here at the same time as the gaels. Norse, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Normans, Picts. They are all but ignored so that we can all be gaelicised. For example Lothian which was part of the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Northumbria named after King Loth or Lot that the Gaels of king Idulb had to attack to get a foothold in the 10th century. Yet there are many people on this forum that believe Scot is analogous to Gael, I suppose that is what happens when you are conquered and history is rewritten.

George · Re: rangers f.c

Corby Boy

All you need to know is that Rangers are a bunch o' blue noses and the Dons hate them more than Celtic. Amen!

I will prize my tongue out of my cheek now.

macnumpty

Yes, but remember that the nation state as we know it really only goes backto the days of MacAlpin. Indeed, the Declaration of Arbroath is probably one of the first documents to make a distinction between the monarch and the nation. Until then, while there was a concept of different realms and countries, loyalty was held to the monarch rather than the kingdom.

The Union of the Crowns in 1603 didn't trigger a popular British cultural movement; James was viewed as monarch of different realms, rather than the monarch of one unified nation. It was only after the Union of the Parliaments that the foundations for Britishness were laid, and as the concept of Scottishness (and Englishness) had already spread, it took work on the part of the Establishment to spread the idea of a single identity. It hasn't worked as well as those behind it hoped: the fact that there is a Scottish nationalist movement at all is testament to that, as is the fact that down South, Britain and England tend to be used as interchangeable terms.

The fact is, Britishness as we know it was a top-down construct, as attempts to create a common European identity over the last 50 years have been. That doesn't make Britishness false, but its artificial nature does explain why it hasn't totally caught on.

George

Aventinian

Aventinian · Re: rangers f.c

Aventinian

Highlander

agentmancuso

Theresa

Agentmancuso, I agree to a point. But artificial doesn't have to mean less real or less meaningful. Perhaps what people seek in the nationalist movements and identity politics currently taking place is more meaning and significance to their lives within a given context.

George

George

Congal

I have read that the name Wallace, [as in William Wallace] means Strathclyde Briton. So I think there might have been some concept of Britishness long before the Union.

Rinty · u

I thought wallace means Welsh, no?

To get back on thread, I think there are many generalisations made about the Rangers support, such as the notion that they are tory voters.

Aventinian

Well the Strathclyde Britons were. broadly speaking, 'Welsh' yes.

Historians seem to be divided as to a sense of British identity back then. Outsiders such as the Romans certainly recognised it though.

Congal

Rinty · u

Yes the strathclyde britons would certainly be of Welsh culture and language, possibly descent as well, but I think the word Wallace means Welsh rather than Strathclyde Briton.

I dont think that Moira, as a battle, would be particularly British, any more than any other battle before or after it.

It was more to do with kingdoms of the North of Ireland/West of Scotland surely and neither of them would consider themselves to have been British as such. No? Of course there are several versions of the story that has been politically twisted by monks and politicians over the years. But essentially Moira was about control of a part of the north of the island of ireland by pictish/brythonnic kings, not a british wide thing.

Aventinian · Re: u

Congal

Well as some on here always keep insisting on sources. I think we all know who I'm talking about Smile

I've just hoaked out the book I got it from its....Scottish Clan And Family Names...Their Arms,Origins and Tartans by Roddy Martine Foreward by Sir Malcolm Innes Of Edingight CVO Lord Lyon King of Arms. Heraldic illustrations by Don Pottinger LVO MA DA Islay Herald.

WALLACE

The name Wallace means 'Strathclyde Briton' and is therefore considered a 'native name' It was prominent in Ayrshire in the thirteenth century,and also in Renfrewshire. Richard Wallace[or Wallensis] or Richardson or Riccarton,who lived in the twelfth century,is the first noted of the name. He was in the service of Walter Fitz Alan,first Steward of Scotland. His grandson,Adam,had two sons, Adam, 4th Laird of Riccarton in Ayrshire and Malcom,who received the lands of Elderslie and Auchinbothie in Refrewshire. Malcom was the father of Scotland's hero, Sir William Wallace [1274-1305] who led the revolt against English rule before his demise and the advent of victory achieved on the battlefield by Rober Bruce.
The Wallaces of Craige,Ayrshire,are also descended from those of Riccarton.
At Stirling on the top of Abbey Craig stands the nation's memorial to William Wallace,built in 1896. Near Dryburgh Abbey in the Borders is a huge statue erected in his memory in 1814. There is also a statue at Lanark by sculptor Rober Forrest erected in 1882; this commerates the tradition that it was the murder of Wallace's wife,who came from Lanark,that prompted him to take up arms against the English.
After several generations in Jamaica,a family of Wallace came forward as owners of the Busbie and Cloncaird estates in Ayrshire and were recognized as heads of the house of Wallace.

A HISTORY OF ULSTER by Jonathan Bardon

Congal Claen who was possibly the greatest of all Cruthin Kings became over-King of Ulster in 627. By 637 Congal had managed to gather around him a powerful army that included not only Ulstermen but according to Colgan contingents of Picts[Scotland] Anglo-Saxons[English] and Britons[Welsh]. The battle as depicted in later Bardic romances seems to have been a ferocious affair and as well as the land confrontation it included a naval engagement.

I'm aware that someone could perhaps quote from other books, the net or whatever. Thats why sometimes I don't bother to rise to that particular bait. As I've said before.....it depends on what book you read. But I thought on this occassion it would do no harm to put these forward.

Rinty · y

Thanks for that congal, interseting about the wallace thing.

I take your popint on Moira but again I dont see it as a British army as such just a northern King rallying support from other kings and relatives. I wouldnt have been seen by the people involved as a struggle of Britain vs Ireland, more of various groups form various parts of the british isles supporting their relatives claim to be king of that part of Ulster.

The terms you use the describe the various groups might not even have been how they saw themselves, the Scottish end would far more see themselves as Dalriatta than Scottish and would see antrim as part of their natural territory more than other parts of Scotland even.

Corby Boy

Concepts of Britishness long before the creation of nation states at a time when europe including the isles we all inhabit was made up of many tribes and family groups, is laughable. Rinty has it pretty much summed it up.

A lot has been made by political factions over the years about ties with this country or that based upon long ago battles etc..e.g. Cuchulainn and Unionist Ulster etc...

I just don't buy it re: the Romans. They called the lower half of the UK Britannia, because at the time it constituted the area of Brythonic Celtics they referred to as Britons no more. Caledonia and Hibernia at the time were not largely populated by these particular tribes.

As for Rangers fans - they cut across all political parties depending upon the extremity of their views re: Ireland/Scotland/Britain and whether they just like the team and thats that.

As always its the hard core minority as with Celtic that perpetuate the imagery that exists.

Cymro

There was some research done by some historican a few months ago which noted that Wallace does come from the word Wales - some evolution of the name Wallea (which also mean Wales). It was even suggested that he could speak Welsh - Galwegian Welsh I assume.

The name Strathclyde is said to come from the Welsh name 'Ystrad Clyd'. Ystrad is a common name for very old places in Wales - Ystrad Fflur is a good example (Strate Florida - an old Monestory in Ceredigion, Mid Wales). Think it means something along the lines of Estate, or large piece of land.

Rangers (like Celtic) are full of stereotypes which don't show the true picture. They have an obsession with the UJ, so comparisons are naturally drawn with the Tories, and also the BNP - more so with their love of raising the hand to signify the Red Hand. I sincerecly doubt that the hand thing is a Nazi thing as I've seen pictures of vast mumbers doing so and find it very hard to believe that these are all supportive of Nazis.

Aventinian

Congal

As I said Rinty....there must have been some concept of Britishness. Maybe nothing like what we have to-day,but it was there.

I agree, it was not there as an army in the sense of being fighting for Britain. Congal had many friends on the mainland especially Scotland. He called on them for support,which they gave.

In Moira there is area called Carnalbanach. This is believed to be the spot where the Scottish princes were slain. A memorial is believed to have existed there sometime in the past.

I just mentioned it in a sorta tongue-in-cheek way. They came from all over the present day U.K.........so.

Rinty · u

Yes but essentially they were from Dalriatta which saw itself (almost certainly) as a separate nation from Scotland, Ireland and the rest. They had cousins in other parts of the isles but were not British and didnt consider themselves to be so.

Of course, most of that history is distorted as the recording of it was the sole preserve of catholic monks and royal ass-kissing priests. A lot of it was written years later in mythology so it is hard to put in context.

Congal

I would say thats right Dalriada existed in the North East corner of Antrim and also across on the west Of Scotland and seen themselves as a kingdom in their own right.

Dalariada was futher to the south an area roughly covered from mid Antrim to north Down. Futher to the south in Co Down was the Dal Fiatach.

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