Reid Responds to Murray

Rinty · Reid Responds to Murray

I have not gone into any detailed look at Reid's original comments, it very much depends on the context of his comments and whether he was answering a direct question, but, in general terms, I agree with Murray.

I think the people who should be commenting on the 'famine song' are representatives of rangers, of the Catholic community and/or Irish community. Reid is neither, the song was sung By Rangers and Hearts fans at the boy McCarthy at Hamilton. This song is an attack on both the irish and on catholics, not on Celtic, so Reid should stay out of it.

Rangers are the people most damaged by the singing of that song in my opinion and Celtic's Spokesperson should be supporting Rangers in trying to stamp it out.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/r/rangers/7738171.stm

William_Cleland

Celtic should sort out the pro-IRA songs sung by their own supporters before having a go at any other club's supporters. People in glass houses and all that. If it ever gets to the stage that points start being deducted over this sort of stuff (and that's what some of the more obsessive types on both sides of the divide who perpetually email organisations like UEFA are aiming for) it will be time to pull the plug on football in Scotland completely as it will have been reduced to a complete farce.

Cymro

I agree more with Rinty here. It's up to Rangers to deal with the all too obvious problem of a section of it's support openly embarcing on secterian songs. This kind of behaviour is unacceptable but when a person not only from Rangers' biggest rivals says something, but John Reid says it what tends to happen is William Clellands response - "Celtic should deal with their pro IRA songs yadda yadda". All that response ensures is that the mindless bigots on both sides continue to get away with their unacceptable behaviour.

Fans from both sides want to see this sort of behaviour stopped and seen as unacceptable as racial chanting has been in UK grounds since the late 80's but because of comments made by the likes of Reid things have not been dealt with because fans of both sides are busy as William has done here, in hiding behind the actions of the other.

agentmancuso

Cymro

William_Cleland

Rinty

Willima, I am sure that you think it is important that people are aware of what the more extreme celtic fans think as you would like to portray celtic in general this way. I see no point in a tit for tat review of rangers ugly element.

Murray, of course should also comment on Bains view that the famine song is juts tit-for-tat ribbing of the other supporters. After the singing of the song at McCarthy by both rangers and hearts fans then it is clearly aimed wider at the irish catholic community.

William_Cleland

I note you have neglected to mention to uninformed onlookers like cymro that McCarthy gets abuse because he opted to play for the Republic of Ireland rather than Scotland despite being born and raised in Scotland by parents who were also born and raised in Scotland. Would people bleat on so much about attacks on the wider English Anglican community in Scotland if there was a player who opportunistically chose to play for England rather than Scotland based on grandparent eligibility or would it be portrayed as normal terracing banter from that wonderful cuddly happy-go-lucky Tartan Army?

Rinty

I'm not tartan army william so I dont feel the need to answer what they might do.

I didnt mention McCarthy's choice of RoI as I thought that everyone would know. Cymro is a rangers supporter and keeps up wih scottish affairs so I assumed that he would know.

I wasnt addressing the issue of McCarthy's abuse, He is a target for the reasons you give but that is my point. The 'famine song' is sung directly at him because of that Irish catholic identity.

My point is that the singing of that specific song at players like McCarthy, rather than just at Celtic supporters, means that it is aimed at irish-catholics in Scotland. This means, in my opinion, that Reid was wrong to comment and should have left it to a spokesperson for irish people, or for catholics or to the media. Bain was also wrong as he initially described it as just baneter between two sets of fans. We can see, due to the singing of the song at McCarthy, that it is in fact ugly 'banter' between between extreme elements of two communities.

The jeering of McCarthy is one thing, the singing of the famine song at him is a different issue.

McCarthy and McGeady pledging to Ireland will hapen again if the SFA dont plug the hole caused by their absurd rules on youth internationals. If Scottish players are signed to the biggere clubs they will not be allowed to play for their schools, then the SFA dont allow them to play for Scotland until U-17 level. By that time Ireland had McCarthy and McGeady as part of their set-up putting Scotland at a disadvantage when they were asked to choose. In McGeady's case it was worse as his coach at youth set-up had beceome the manager of the national team.

A friends son who was with rangers until recently faced being left out of Scotlands national youth set up between the ages of 14 and 16. His father always told me that if he had a grandparent of anothe narionality his son would be training and playing with that country.

Our best young players miss out on international experience and they are also then susceptible to being snapped up by another team. We exclued youing players from the national set-up and then expect them to come when we whistle a few years later.

Brian McLean, fomer rangers player, now at motherwell, played for scotland at U-17 level but then chose Northern Ireland as his nationality despite being Scottish. He jumped ship later than McGeady and McCarthy and 'turned his back on scotland' yet I have never heard rangers fans jeering him for that decision.

William_Cleland

Rinty

"I wasn't at the games in question and am not prepared to take your word for what happened but in general terms it seems to me that it is an attack on McCarthy for his decision to play for the RoI, end of story."

I wasnt there either but trust the report from my mate who is a hearts fan and watched the hamilton v ranghers game on TV and heard it. Yes you are right. His decision to play for Ireland was the reason he was attacked. By choosing the famine song to attack him with demonstrates that this song is aimed generally at irish-catholics and not Celtic. Which is why Reid shouldn't be commenting on it.

"As for Brian McLean he opted for NI because he knew he had no chance where Scotland was concerned but the paperwork was done too late to negate an earlier U-17 Scotland appearance so he isn't actually been able to represent Northern Ireland any more."

Yes I know he cant play for them any more but he chose to play for NI over Scotland. YOu cant. on one hand take in the surrounding circumstances when it comes to McLean and still choose to ignore the extenuating circumstances re McCarthy and McGeady.

It strikes me that the cases are much the same, a young man making on a decision that he thinks is best for his career. At U17 level all three are good enough to be picked for Scotland. Maclean, by your reckoning, gambles on not being good enough for Scotland so opts for NI, the other two are already part of another set-up and gamble on being a continuing part of that rather than starting again with a new set-up.

"What makes some people's blood boil about McGeady and McCarthy is that they are good enough to play for Scotland (albeit at youth level in McCarthy's case) and are, therefore, playing for the RoI as a first choice."

As I said, when Scotland came calling both had been involved in the RoI international set-up for years. What makes no sense and gets people who are involved in youth football's blood boiling, is the ludicrous arrangement in Scotland re the 'schools FA" having charge over youth internationals at a younger level. The big teasm now protect young players they are investing in, limiting the amount of time they train and play. They are not willing to give some of that time over to porr quality teachers who may not be good for the development of the player, so they stop kids from playing for their schools. Meanwhile the SFA ban those who dont play for their schol from playing for scotlands youth teams until they have left school.

If we continue this we will see more like McGeady and McCarthy in the future, possibly pakistan or poland being the benificiaries rather than Ireland.

"Personally, I couldn't really give a toss. I don't have the same level of interest in the Scotland team any more that I did back in the Home Internationals era."

Agreed. I am the same, I watch on TV and can get excited when watching but the level of interest has dropped significantly. The same is true for many fans in many nations and is partly due to the huge amount of competitive games in europe and the seemingly endless line of dull games against crap teams.

Cymro

William_Cleland

I wouldn't feel qualified to go on a Welsh board and start sounding off about Welsh issues because I know the square root of bugger all about Wales. I wouldn't even do it on a board about Northern Ireland even though I do know quite a bit about that part of the world. I would just lurk. Some Welsh people could no doubt comment intelligently on here on what happens in Scotland but you don't appear to me to be one of them.

If you knew anything about Scotland and were not pursuing some personal vendetta in this thread you would realise that I was not justifying anybody's actions and I was actually being quite critical of Rangers by mentioning the stuff that happened in the 1950s. If Rangers really were at heart the bastion of Unionism they are portrayed as rather than an at times cynically opportunistic commercial enterprise, which forms part of a symbiotic whole with Celtic in that regard as agentmancuso was alluding to, they would have been Celtic's most vociferous opponent on that issue.

As for "Why don't you go home?" I think it is clearly in bad taste but on the flip side it is deliberately being built up into much more than it actually is by John Reid and others. David Murray's comments were basically a way of expressing surprise that a former senior cabinet minister would egg on the bampot element within the Celtic support like that. He won't rock the boat too much though and really let rip about it for the same reasons Rangers played along with Celtic in the early 50s over the Tricolour. They both need to keep the pot boiling to keep people obsessively attending games and buying merchandise despite being stuck in what is in all honesty often a piss poor league.

Rinty

cymru has been coming here for years and has Scottish family and is a rangers supporter. I would think he is perfectly qualified to have an opinion on this. And even if he had no connection he would still be welcome to comment as I feel that 'to see oorselves as ithers see us' is always a worthwhile exercise.

William_Cleland

He's no more a Rangers supporter than I am a proboscis monkey.

Rinty

Well his sympathies lie with rangers in an old firm debate but he did say once on this site that when he moves to scotland he would adopt a local team. I think he got into rangers through his girlfriends family.

But, as I said, it is always worthwhile hearing others views on our insular old firm problem. It doesnt mater to me whether he supports wrexham, west ham of hearts. His opinion in still valid. You dont like any opinion that doesnt see it your way so are trying to rule out cymru's opinion because of where he comes from rather than debate his points.

Thye 'flag' debacle in 1952 was a storm in a teacup. Celtic have always flown the union jackabove their offices and main stand. Rangers backed celtic on this issue as it was a clear attempt by some in the SFA to stir up trouble and there was no legal or logical basis for the move.

As Football became more inmternational celtic extended the flags on the roof of the jungle to include the countries of the last 9 clubs that celtic played. The flags changed over the years built the irish one was always there as we often played irish teams.

But the union flag was always flown, there was never a preference of the tricolour over the union jack, both were there, some people in the SFA objected to one of them.

William_Cleland

I'm familiar with the propaganda line, Rinty. Been hearing it all my life.

Rinty

It is the truth, I used to hear the bigots line when I went to CP regularly, the republicans constantly moaning at the union jack flying in Kerrydale Street.

Rangers were not the only club to support Celtic over the banning of the flag in 1952, the SFA were not able to implement the ban as the majority of member clubs voted against it.

The propaganda line of a conspiratorial veto by celtic and rangers is nonsense, they had the same vote as other clubs and the SFA members didnt think that those who instigated this idea had made the case for it, obviously.

The main problem that the SFA had was Celtic also flying the union flag, it meant that any attempt to paint the flying of the irish flag as an anti-british symbol was hollow.

The flag idea came after celtic fans had rioted at Ibrox and had a couple of seasons where their fans behaviour was bad across Scotland, not alwys sectarian related violence.

The SFA move sounds much like other attempts in later years.

Anyone who thinks that 'nil by mouth' or banning flags will solve the problem is either unaware of what the problem is or just wants to use the problem to ban the flag.

William_Cleland

Not sure what most of that has to do with anything I have written in this thread.

Rinty

Well partly a response to you claim that my view is a propaganda line and secondly your assertion that Rangers supported celtic over the flag for financial reasons. If that was the case what was the reason for the other claubs also supporting them.

It is far more likely that your idea that 'celtic were nearly kicked out of scottish football' is an exagerration and thatmost clubs, including rangers saw the SFAs answwer to crowd trouble as too simplistic and missing the point.

William_Cleland

A genuinely staunchly Unionist institution would have wanted to see Celtic disbanded forever, regardless of the rights and wrongs of the situation and would have gone for the jugular. They would also tell somebody like John Reid where to go Ian Paisley in the 1970s style rather than the recent mealy mouthed drivel from David Murray. I'm surprised that someone who claims to be a socialist can't see the divide and rule angle to all of this.

Rinty

"A genuinely staunchly Unionist institution would have wanted to see Celtic disbanded, forever."

Totally agree.

"They would also tell John Reid where to go Ian Paisley in the 1970s style rather than the recent mealy mouthed drivel from David Murray."

agree, not on Murray being "mealy mouthed" as he said probably just about enough rather than make it worse. But I agree that a unionist instiutuion would respond differently to Reid than a football business.

"I'm surprised that someone who claims to be a socialist can't see the divide and rule angle to all of this."

I assume this is aimed at someone else as the 'divide and rule angle' is not in dispute here.

Cymro

I must admit William I find the basis of your argument a bizzare combination of hillarious, pathetic and sad. Does one have to live by your excuses for bigotry in order to be a Rangers fan or something? I can confirm that Rinty, with his memory like an elephent is right about me. My main club are Wrexham. It is them I go to support when I can. However through my wifes family I have also ressurected an interest and following in Rangers. I used to like them during the days of McCoist and Hatley then left it and upon meeting my wifes Rangers mad family I began following them again. Now, that doesn't mean I therefore have to buy into your beliefs of hateing Celtic, secterian attitudes, using the behaviour of them to justify your own beliefs etc as you seem to claim. To argue that is just bloody nuts.

I know many Rangers fans now both here in Wales ( I am a member of the only official Rangers SC in Wales) and in the Oban area. Some have beliefs not unlike yours saddly and will make excuses for secterian behaviour like you. And others, who are just as obsessed with Rangers are a lot more 'enlightened' and don't associate supporting Rangers with the typical secterian nonsense.

For you to argue otherwise speaks more about you than anything else unfortunatly for you.

agentmancuso

Rinty

"I have very little sympathy for McGeady and McCarthy either; the situation is entirely of their own making."

To an extent it is, but faced with that gamble at the age of 17 is a difficult choice, especially in McGeady's case. When Scotland turned their back on mcGeady he became part of Irelands set-up under Brian Kerr. When he was older and ciould then choose to leave ireland and join scotland Brian Kerr had become the national manager.

I think the situation is the SFA's making. They should allow young players who are signed with the pro clubs to play for Scotland whether they play for their school or not. Ireland do, and they get to snap up the ones we ignore.

agentmancuso