| Archive for Our Scotland - www.our-scotland.org Scottish Politics Discussion Forum / Messageboard - Dedicated to online discussion about Scottish Politics and an Independent Scotland, as well as Scottish Society today. We also have a section dedicated to Banter, Sport and Recommended Sites. |
| Red Justice |
Saturday 10 Jan - STOP THE WAR ON GAZASaturday 10 Jan - STOP THE WAR ON GAZAStop Israel's crime against humanity Scotland-wide Demonstration in Edinburgh Assemble 12:30pm East Market Street (behind Edinburgh Waverley Train Station) March through the city centre and to the US Consulate. Bring in-date medicine for Gaza, and spare shoes. Supported by Stop the War Scotland, Glasgow and Edinburgh, Pauline McNeil MSP, Sandra White MSP, Muslim Association of Britain, Scottish Palestine Solidarity Campaign, Glasgow Palestine Human Rights Campaign, Lebanese Community Scotland, Scottish Afghan Society, Scottish Islamic Foundation, Scottish Friends of Palestine, Scottish CND , SACC and others COACHES TO THE DEMONSTRATION Towns and cities across Scotland are organising coaches to bring protestors to Edinburgh. Inverness Demo 1pm Sat 10 Jan, outside the Royal bank of Scotland on the pedestrian precinct in Inverness. London Demo Assemble 12.30pm Sat 10 Jan, Hyde Park, London March to Israeli Embassy, London W8 National Demo organised by Palestine Solidarity Campaign, Stop the War Coalition, British Muslim Initiative, Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament and many other organisations. |
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| Scotland86 |
Ok im now thinking we need a "Stop the violence against Israel" march. | ||||||||||||
| Rinty |
That would be the most ludicrous march ever. It would be a bit like having a march for the vichy as they were facing bombs from the free resistance.
The urgent thing, in my opinion, is opening the egyptian borders to let the people out. Israel have the people hemmed in and, until yesterday, the only safe havens were UN sponsored schols and uni's. But Israel have now made those safe places a target too. There is nowhere to go for the people, nowhere to run, they cant leave by boat or by air as Israel dont allow them a port or airport, their only means of escape would be into Egypt. Egypt MUST open the border now. |
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| Scotland86 |
But when ever anywhere is made safe Hamas take it over to protect there fighters and munitions. | ||||||||||||
| Rinty |
thats just not true | ||||||||||||
| mairead |
Well Hamas should not have been sending rockets into Israel which caused the recent Israeli retaliation. It was also Hamas, a terrorist organisation by the way, which brought the recent short cease fire to an end by firing in two more rockets.
Also, civilian casualties in Palestine would not have been neaerly so bad if Hamas did not use civilian areas and civilians as shields from which to attack. The implications, should Israel not defend itself are too awful to think about, for example, and IMHO, Iran is just watching and waiting......... |
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| Rinty |
mairead, all of gaza is a civilian area.
The people who live in gaza live as refugees, Israel dont allow them to return to live in their own land. This fight was there long before hamas. Anyomje who starts this debate from rockets in recent weeks, I am sorry, but your pinions are ludicrous. There was a 6 month ceasefire that hamas stuck to. Howvere, Israel s[pent that six months intimidationg and muliating the gazan people on a daily basis. They carried out a sifge, blocking medicals supplies and water. When the six months expired there was no way hamas could agree to extend the ceasefire as the humanitarian crisis got worse. the lack of medical suuplies and water didnt start just last week mairead. |
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| Holebender |
Do you know what Gaza's like? Where would you suggest Hamas or anyone else go to find a sparsely populated non-civilian area from which to conduct their operations?
If some Jews had fought back against the Germans keeping them in their concentration camp, and the Nazis had reacted by liquidating the camp, would you be blaming the inmates for starting it? |
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| Scotland86 |
Jesus talking about blowing it all out of proportion. How come you only talk about what the people of Gaza have said and what Hamas and Fatah have said? how about we talk about what the Israelis have been saying. Hamas are tunneling into Egypt to smuggle weapons I take it this is a lie. They as Mairead said are purposely firing from civilian areas. Ok so you say all of Gaza is a civilian area but i think using a school as a launch site is sick and using the Uni as a weapons lab well thats 2 examples of how they are purposely and knowingly using humans as shields. | ||||||||||||
| Holebender |
What do you consider out of proportion? Gaza is a concentration camp, nothing else. It is completely controlled by Israel; there is no port, no airport, the border with Egypt is closed. How do you suggest people (that's actual human beings) get anything into the place? | ||||||||||||
| Dave Coull |
But YOU are the one who has been avoiding that! Under the "Demonstration for Gaza" heading, both Holebender and myself quoted the words of the founding father of the state of Israel, Ben Gurion, which YOU chose to ignore. So far as present day Israelis are concerned, I reported what Tom Pessah, an Israeli editor of Jewish Peace News, had said. YOU chose to avoid talking about that. To remind you, here are Tom Pessah's words again: "We can either continue to accept this logic, that killing hundreds of people will 'teach them a lesson', or we can demand a complete change of policy - a real honest attempt to end the occupation in both Gaza and the West Bank, dismantling settlements instead of building new ones, allowing people access to health care, food, higher education, travel abroad and the right to choose their own government democratically just like everyone else. To all those who say 'there is no choice' - why is killing 500 people, very few of whom were engaged in firing rockets, even considered a legitimate choice? where is this leading to? only to the death and wounding of more Palestinian and Israeli soldiers and civilians. Enough is enough." |
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| Dave Coull |
So what's stopping you? |
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| Dave Coull |
The state of Israel is a terrorist organisation. The bomb which was planted in the King David Hotel in Jerusalem killed 91 people and seriously injured 46 more. A future prime minister of Israel, Menachem Begin, was one of the people involved in that act of terrorism. Not long ago, the Israeli state celebrated the sixtieth anniversary of that act of terror by honouring the terrorists. The British ambassador lodged an official protest with the Israeli government about them celebrating terrorism. The Israeli state continues to act as a terrorist organisation to this day. |
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| Scotland86 |
Dave i aint talking about what the founding father said im on about the here and now.
Hole as a few people have said countless times Gaza is one big civilian area which is why Hamas cant help but to fire rockets from within civilian areas. So where do you suggest this airport and port be situated? if theres no space in the civilian areas for to fire rockets from how the hell do you suggest they fit in an airport and port? |
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| Dave Coull |
And as one example of Scotland86 avoiding talking about what Israelis themselves are saying,
Okay, you're not talking about the founding fathers, but you're also not talking about what Israelis are saying today. That makes the THIRD TIME you have avoided talking about what Tom Pessah and tens of thousands of other Israelis have been saying. |
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| Holebender |
A port, at least, can be build by dropping a load of boulders in the sea to form a harbour. people have done it for centuries. An airport would be trickier but, if the siege was lifted and people were free to move, perhaps enough people would be able to move to make some room. Or perhaps Israel could give back some of the land it occupies illegally, and it could be used to build an airport.
Where there's a will there's a way. And while we're about it, please use my full name and stop the childishness. |
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| Scotland86 |
There was no childishness meant in using "hole" but theres another assumption that you know me.
Dave for every person you bring up there is another saying the exact opposite. As with most world situations there is one section saying one thing and another section saying another. Holebender if Israel was to listen to everything that is being said to them they would have no land left. |
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| Holebender |
No, they would have the land they had in 1967. Why should they have anything more that their internationally recognised territory? Why should Palestinians be deprived of more and more of the little they have so Israel can have liebensraum?
Do you think the strong have the right to take what they want from the weak? Would it be right if the UK invaded the Faroes and took them over to make more space for people from overcrowded London? |
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| Dave Coull |
I pointed out that I had repeatedly drawn attention to what some Israelis are saying, and Scotland86 had repeatedly declined to talk about this. That point has now drawn this response:
Ah, I get it now. You don't really want to talk about what the Israelis have been saying. You only want to talk about what SOME Israelis, the ones that you agree with, have been saying. |
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| Scotland86 |
No Dave because if we talk about the Israelis you mentioned that too would be talking about SOME of them.
Holebender, its nothing to do with whos the "strong" and whos the "weak" when it comes to who i support. I support the Israelis on this because being surrounded on all sides by countries that have stated they will wipe Israel from the face of the earth they cant allow a softly softly approach. If they did allow Hamas an inch then the rest would take a mile and that may put them in more danger. |
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| Holebender |
All Israel's neighbours have recognised Israel's 1967 borders. None will attempt to attack.
From Israel's point of view, surely a smaller territory is easier to defend than the extended sprawl they currently occupy. However you look at it, there is no justification for Israel trying to secure its own safety at the expense of her neighbours. And Israel will never be secure as long as it keeps remote settlements (which must be incredibly difficult and expensive to defend) within Palestinian territory. |
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| Scotland86 |
All Israel's neighbours have recognised Israel's 1967 borders. None will attempt to attack.
Are you denying that Israels Arab neighbours said they will wipe Israel off the face of the earth? Hamas included by the way. And Israel will never be secure as long as it keeps remote settlements (which must be incredibly difficult and expensive to defend) within Palestinian territory. Aint the whole of Israel in palestinian territory? |
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| Dave Coull |
In response, I pointed out that I had repeatedly drawn attention to what SOME Israelis are saying, and Scotland86 had repeatedly declined to talk about this. To quote a previous message from myself,
Note that I specifically said SOME Israelis
And THAT is a fact. He has, in fact, repeatedly declined to talk about this, I make it at least five times now, and is still declining to do so, therefore, regarding his suggestion "how about we talk about what the Israelis have been saying",
Whaddya mean, "No"????????!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't see how you can possibly deny that you have been avoiding discussing what SOME Israelis are saying! Despite suggesting "how about we talk about what the Israelis have been saying", you have now declined at least five opportunities to talk about what Tom Pessah and tens of thousands of other Israeli citizens have been saying!
Whaddya mean, "Because"?????????!!!!!!!!!!!! "Because" is a word that you use when you give a REASON. You have not given a reason. I have repeatedly drawn attention to what SOME Israelis, such as Tom Pessah for instance, are saying. Statement of fact, you have repeatedly declined opportunities to discuss this. Therefore (a word signifying a conclusion drawn from the statement immediately before) it seems to me that you only want to talk about what SOME Israelis, the ones that you agree with, have been saying. In the circumstances of your repeated avoidance of discussing what Tom Pessah and others in the Israeli anti-war movement have been saying, I don't see how you can possibly deny this. We here on the Our Scotland forum can't consider the words of very single citizen of Israel. Of course we can only discuss one statement, from one Israeli, or one group of Israelis, at a time. But YOU have not quoted any statements at all, from any Israelis whatsoever. Whereas, I have. Now, personally, I would be quite prepared to discuss conflicting statements, from different Israelis, in the same message. However, that would probably be difficult for YOUR attention span, and you would probably accuse me of "blabbering on", as you have done previously. Although you said "how about we talk about what the Israelis have been saying", so far as I can see, the only person on this forum who has actually refused to discuss a statement from some Israelis is yourself. |
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| Holebender |
I am denying that that is still their positions. They have all recognised Israel's 1967 borders and have publicly pledged to honour them. Do you deny that? If so, produce a source.
Hamas is not a sovereign government, but a Palestinian liberation movement. Their rhetoric is for their own people's consumption. If they can get a reasonable peace settlement of course they are going to recognise Israel as part of the deal. Don't you know how these things work? The whole of Israel was once Palestinian territory but the UN mandated the creation of the State of Israel within that territory. The whole world recognises Israel's territory as mandated by the UN. No-one recognises the territory Israel grabbed after the 1967 war. As long as Israel maintains settlements in the occupied territories it will never be secure, but the settlements are a good excuse to harass and brutalise Palestinians, which provokes retaliation, which gives an excuse to kill a few hundred more. Eventually they hope to clear them out and enjoy security in their expanded lands. |
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| Scotland86 |
Holebender im not denying that Israels borders are recognised by there neighbouring countries but that doesnt change the fact that all but Jordan are just watching and waiting for the right time to strike at Israel to follow through there pledge to wipe them out.
Dave. You keep going on about this one Jewish peace newspaper journalist as "some" Israelis. What happens if i didnt want to talk about that "some Israelis" what if i wanted to talk about the "some Israelis" who back the attacks on Gaza and feel they are justified and required to secure there safety. |
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| mairead |
I agree with you Scotland 86. I firmly believe that Iran, and others, are just waiting the opportunity to move in and further increase the Muslim states.
Israel is a non Muslim country surrounded by fanatics who think if you are not Muslim then you should be dead. IMHO, There is a bigger picture here which no-one seems to be looking at. |
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| Scotland86 |
Mairead im glad that you are one of few on here who is looking at it as i am. There is indeed a bigger picture. I am not denying that there is people suffering on both sides. But Israel has to think of there long term future and security. As i have said if they sat back and took a light handed approach i am willing to bet that Iran would be mobilising for an attack. | ||||||||||||
| Scotland86 |
if not Iran im pretty sure Syria wouldnt mind a pop at the Israelis. | ||||||||||||
| Dave Coull |
Be fair, I have repeatedly pointed out some aspects of the bigger picture. Like, for instance, that the reason many fundamentalist Christians in the USA and elsewhere (including still-President George Dubbya Bush) are so enthusiastic in their support of Israel is because of their interpretation of what it says in the Book of Revelations about Israel as a Sign of the End.
Presumably you also believe that Iain Paisley and the Pope are plotting together to increase the Christian states? |
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| Dave Coull |
In any case, although that's what you really want, it's not what you SAID you wanted. What you CLAIMED to want is "how about we talk about what the Israelis have been saying". That claim has now conclusively been proved to be hypocrisy. You have repeatedly, six times now I think, refused to talk about things said by the ONLY real, live, present day Israelis whose words have been quoted, by name, here on this Our Scotland forum. |
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| Holebender |
Have you people looked at a map lately? Iran? You do realise they are not exactly neighbours and Israel would have to swallow up Syria and Iraq before there could be any sort of border war with Iran.
The longest standing peace agreement in the region is between Israel and Egypt, but you don't seem to have noticed that one. I'm sure, as soon as they get the Golan back, Syria will honour its obligations. Why wouldn't they? Is it just because they's Muslims? |
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| mairead |
Dave Coull,
you can presume whatever you like about the Pope and Ian Paisley but they are not up for discussion. Your presumtion is a bit silly to say the least, but no more than I would expect from you. |
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| mairead |
Holebender. I take your point re distance, but then no-ne knows what long range weapons are at Iran's disposal and war is not always waged on the ground. Distance is no barrier these days as we have seen so recently with Iraq and Afganistan for example. | ||||||||||||
| Dave Coull |
Exactly. They are both fanatics, but fanatics who can't agree. And it's just as silly to think there is agreement amongst Muslims on further increasing the Muslim states as it would be to expect agreement between Paisley and the Pope. There are Shia fundamentalists and there are Sunni fundamentalists, but they are both more likely to reach agreement with the Christians than with each other. There are also plenty of Muslims, in Israel, in Palestine, in Syria, in Iran, etc etc etc, who agree with the Israeli anti-war movement, and peace-loving Jews in other countries, in wanting a Middle Eastern settlement which is based on justice and peaceful co-operation, and not on fundamentalist ideology of any kind. What Israel is doing plays into the hands of fundamentalists of all kinds, Jewish, Muslim, and, most dangerous of all, Christian. |
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| Dave Coull |
Nowadays, satellite photo imagery is so good, even stuff that is freely available on the web can take you down to things just two feet square. My wife's father, in San Francisco, used a publicly available map search facility, which maps every part of the world, to find our house. He sent the image to us. You can even tell that our neighbour had cut his grass, and I hadn't cut ours. I pointed out to my wife that the photo was taken last Summer. You can tell because there are leaves on the bushes, and because our next door neighbour has a different colour of car now. And if stuff like that is publicly available, then you can bet the US military has stuff that gives a LOT more detail. And THEIR images were taken TODAY. And of course, as well as having better stuff for VIEWING, they also have far more advanced stuff for LISTENING. "No-one knows what long range weapons are at Iran's disposal?" Rubbish! Of course they do. The US military knows. The British intelligence services know. They won't tell US. And anything they DO tell us is quite likely to be a lie. Remember those "Iraqi weapons of mass destruction" ? Remember how we were supposed to be under threat of attack at just forty five minutes notice? It was all LIES. But those lies were used to justify an attack on Iraq. For that reason, when I hear things like "no-one knows what long range weapons are at Iran's disposal", I know (1) It's not true, and (2) some folk who KNOW it's not true might, nevertheless, have a vested interest in spreading the lie. |
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| mairead |
More presumption from you then. Pity your wife's father did not spot that Iraq had no long range WMD's or if he knew so much why did he not convey this amazing info to Bush and Blair and save thousands of lives.???
I'm sure Israel could use some help along these lines to spot the exact locations of the Paestine rockets, why don't you pass all this knowlege along to them. Duh.. |
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| agentmancuso |
Bush and Blair both knew that the long range WMDs were purely imaginary. |
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| Dave Coull |
The blindingly obvious answer is, because I'm not interested in helping ANY government, or ANY military. But of course the Israeli military can and almost certainly do use technology which is more advanced than what is publicly available on the web. However, even if you can pinpoint something quite small, if the very destructive weaponry that you are firing into very crowded urban areas can't distinguish between "enemies" and "civilians", then it stands to reason you are going to cause what is euphemistically referred to as "collateral damage". |
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| Scotland86 |
I am quite aware of where Iran is situated thank you. I also aware that they have Syria between them but considering that Syria want Israel destroyed i dont think it would be hard for Iran to get permission to pass through there land | ||||||||||||
| Holebender |
Enough! You keep repreating that Syria and other neighbouring states want to destroy Israel. Time to back this claim with a public statement from the government of Syria, or a high official of that government. Put up or shut up, produce a recent statement of Syria's intent to destroy Israel. | ||||||||||||
| Dave Coull |
My stepson, Sam, spent Christmas and New Year with us. Although I played a big part in bringing him up, Sam isn't genetically related to me. He is in fact Jewish on both his mother's side and on his natural father's side. According to the Law of The Return, Sam could become a citizen of Israel if he wanted to. He has visited Israel several times. Yet a Palestinian who was actually born in Israel, and who ended up as a refugee in Gaza, not only can't become a citizen, he can't even visit Israel. Sam is keenly aware of how un-just that situation is, and he has played an active part in demonstrating for peace and justice, in Israel, in Palestine (the West Bank), and elsewhere.
David Ben-Gurion has been described as the "chief architect" of the state of Israel, and he certainly played a very significant role in that. But there were others who also played a part. Another "architect" was Menachem Begin, leader of the Irgun terrorist group which planted a bomb in the King David Hotel that killed 91 people, and who later went on to become prime minister of Israel. But while we are acknowledging the "architects" of Israel, let's not forget the role played by Adolf Hitler and his colleagues. It was their Holocaust against the Jews of Europe, supported or connived in at the time by at least some of the people of all of the countries under Nazi rule, which convinced many Jews that Europe was never going to be a safe place for Jews, and that a Zionist "homeland" was necessary. When Zionist political ideology first appeared amongst the Jews of Europe, during the late 19th Century, Palestine had a smaller Jewish population than dozens of other countries. It hadn't been a Jewish country for the best part of two thousand years. The choice of Palestine for a "homeland" was based on it being the "promised land" of the Old Testament. Many Christians supported the choice of Palestine as a homeland for three reasons: (1) because it wasn't in Europe or north america and what did the Palestinians matter after all; (2) because the Old Testament and its "promise" forms part of the Christian bible; (3) and, last but by no means least so far as some Christians, including prominent American and British politicians, are concerned, because of the prophesies in the Book of Revelations, the final book of the New Testament. Israel is in some ways as much a Christian creation as a Jewish one. Strange, but true. Since the Zionist project was the creation of an exclusively Jewish state, that meant, as David Ben-Gurion advocated, using "terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services" to drive out the native population. Now, the native peoples of North America were forced to the margins and to reservations, yet, even though terrible crimes were committed against them, nobody nowadays advocates sending all the Europeans in North America back where they came from. Although the large Jewish presence in Palestine is more recent, nevertheless, generations of Israeli Jews have grown up who are NOT immigrants to the place. So, in that sense, Palestinians have to accept Israel as a fact. HOWEVER, accepting Israel as a fact should NOT mean they have to accept that they can't return home. For instance, amongst the Palestinian refugees crowded into the Gaza strip by Israeli policy are many who were born in Israel, or whose parents or grandparents were born in Israel. They should be allowed to return to the ancestral land from which they were forced out. If that should mean that Israel ceases to be a sectarian state, that would be good thing. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
[quote="Dave Coull"]
i agree with you but you have to wonder if the british ambassador did that with a straight face. if he did someone ought to explain the process of collusion to him. it will be a cold day in hell before the british government does anything to help palestinians. Lets just hope that the public dont forget about this and iraq come the next general election. |
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| Dave Coull |
http://www.ecaar.org/Newsletter/Nov04/perlo.htm |
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| agentmancuso |
Have you given up celebrating terrorism then? |
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| Dave Coull |
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| mairead |
Sorry Holebender,
but I must admit to being very very wary re Syria. We in this part of the world cannot really know what they would or wouldn't do. Broken promises are a normal course of events among world leaders, and always have been. Remember how we believed Hitler would not invade Poland because he said so. Bush and Blair said there was WMD's in Iraq, there wasn't. Hmmm. I think we would be wise to be suspicious of anything re. that part of the world.one and |
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| Holebender |
For over forty years now Israel has illegally occupied a portion of Syria's territory and yet you are wary of Syria, not Israel. For over forty years Israel has disregarded all international norms of behaviour in its dealings with Syria, and yet you are wary of Syria.
If a neighbouring country had occupied a strategic part of our country for over forty years I'm not at all sure we wouldn't be making belicose noises about pushing them back into the sea, etc. Syria was like that in the early days but now they recognise reality and their position is if Israel returns what it stole Syria will recognise the pre-1967 border and we'll say no more about it. |
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| Holebender |
Muriel Gray has an essay in today's Sunday Herald which is worth a read. You can read the full article here. It ends
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