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| Corby Boy |
Scotland and Wales Joint Bid Euro 2016Scots and Welsh eye Euro 2016 bidHampden would be Scotland's showcase venue for a 2016 bid. The Scottish Football Association could launch a bid to host the Euro 2016 football championship with Wales. An SFA spokesman has confirmed that talks will take place about a joint bid although the proposal is "tentative". The 2016 tournament is being expanded to 24 teams making it difficult for small nations to stage the event alone. FA of Wales secretary general David Collins said: "The matter is on the agenda for our council meeting next week." Northern Ireland have also been linked with a joint Celtic bid although Scotland would probably favour a proposal in partnership with Wales. A Uefa spokesman told BBC Sport that submissions are likely to be sought by spring 2009 and the tournament expansion may see the number of suitable grounds required rise from eight to at least 10. MY SPORT: DEBATE Give your reaction to this story However, he stressed no policy has yet been formed on the regulations governing the new format. The criteria should be known by early next year, which would allow the SFA and their Welsh counterparts to discuss the matter further at the annual meeting of home nations in February. If the project gets beyond the initial stage, a feasibility study would be commissioned to examine the infrastructure regarding accommodation, transport and improved stadiums. Scotland and the Republic of Ireland made a joint bid for Euro 2008 but lost out early in the decision-making process; not even making the final four candidates for selection. Poland and Ukraine are co-hosting the 2012 European Championship. |
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| William_Cleland |
Most media outlets other than the BBC reported it as a three way thing with Northern Ireland. Given 24 teams are involved the following looks moderately sensible for the 6 opening groups of four:-
Aberdeen Inverness ----------- Dundee Edinburgh (Murrayfield) ---------- Glasgow (Ibrox) Glasgow (Parkhead) ---------- Belfast (new stadium at the Maze) Londonderry (or maybe Windsor Park) ---------- Wrexham Swansea ---------- Cardiff Newport Ditch Inverness, L'derry and Newport and only use Hampden in a Glasgow context for the round of 16 onwards, then ditch Dundee, Aberdeen, Wrexham and Swansea for the quarters, have the semis in Belfast and Cardiff and the final at Hampden. |
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| Rinty |
the reportas are that scotland would be in conjunction with wales and the NI have also expressed an interest in getting involved. UEFA are having doubts about 2 countries having the finals, they wouldnt entertain three nations getting automatic qualification.
As the 2012 games are in Ukraine/Poland jointly, I would bet on the 2016 finals being awarded to a single country. There is no way that we could justify a 30,000 plus seated stadium to UAFE standards in Inverness, Reexham, Derry etc. These would be a waste of time. far better to spend that money in grass roots facilities rather than stadiums that will become empty monuments to a past event. There are just 6 stadiums that could be used, Ibrox, CP, Hampden, Murrayfield, Millenium and Cardiffs new stadium. UEFA will insist on either 10 or even 12 stadiums meeting the criteria. Is it worth this investment? |
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| azzuri |
....no.
Lets put all that cash into grassroots investment, making sure we have a team worthy of qualifying over the next 20 years. I think though they'll bring the minimum 30,000 criteria down. After all, 24 teams means many more games, and many more games means less punters to watch them. How many people are likely to go to the Belgium vs. Lithuania game in Inverness, for example? |
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| William_Cleland |
Really? From a Croatian website on Wednesday. http://www.javno.com/en/sports/clanak.php?id=210580 "To suggest that we are planning to launch a bid is wide of the mark, but we have had tentative talks with the Welsh and further talks are planned with Northern Ireland when the International Board meets in Belfast at the end of February," a Scottish FA spokesman said. "We all know none of us can stage a 24-team tournament as it will be in 2016 but we are exploring the possibility of co-hosting."
If the political will is there that can change. There are already plans in the works for a new stadium for the Northern Ireland team (hence why the SFA probably want to speak to them) and for Aberdeen for example. Worth noting that the stadium in Charleroi for Euro 2000 was designed to be downsized immediately after the tournament so temporary seating could be used to get to 30,000 in some instances. |
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| Rinty |
Political will to spend so much with so little actual benefit past the finals would be hard to get in this climate.
Your quote from the SFA doesnt contradict what I said. Scotland are seeking partners for this, it wont be a joint bid from three countries, it will be two of those three. Other uefa members would not endorse three automatic quailifiers as one or two of them will miss out. The main problam re the bid is NOT the stadiums, it is the ability to host events such as this. The joint Irish/Scottish bid failed at the first hurdle and even Glasgow, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast do not have the hotel rooms required never mind the transport links required for such huge numbers of people. Inverness, Swansea, Newport, Derry etc would match up. So the investment would involve massive costs beyond just upgrading some stadiums. I really dont know how Scottish Football would benefi from this short of us all getting to a few games. The amount of money that would be needed, channelled properly into longer lasting resources, would be more of a benefit. Of course, that amount of money wouldn't be available without the bid, probably. |
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| William_Cleland |
You are making it up as you go along. There is nothing in that quote that suggests either/or where Wales and Northern Ireland are concerned. Part of a three way joint bid could easily be that only one or maybe even none get to qualify automatically. The main reason the bid with the RoI failed was that the RoI couldn't live up to their side of the plan due to the GAA refusing to allow use of Croke Park and Jack McConnell didn't really push it that hard anyway as it was originally a Henry McLeish initiative. Scotland has plenty of hotel rooms. A large chunk of our economy is based on tourism after all. After all is said and done, however, I suspect the main reason for this talk of a bid is all about preempting any talk of a joint UK team after the 2012 Olympics. |
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| Rinty |
No, I am expressing my interpretation of what has been reported. The hotel room issue is real and it is widely reported that Glasgow nearly missed out on the commonwealth games because of this. The euros bring vast numbers of spectators more than those games. Also, all talk is focused on centering the events in central scotland and south wales, wrexham, inverness etc would not be involved. All commentary that I have seen agrees that UEFA wouldnt allow a three-nation bid because they would all qualify. |
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| William_Cleland |
They could easily change the rules on that so that all three don't get to qualify automatically just as they changed it from 16 to 24 teams recently. That is not an insurmountable problem. How could you possibly know at this stage what cities would be involved when all the talks on the matter are described as speculative ? You are clearly making it up as you go along. 
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| Rinty |
"How could you possibly know at this stage what cities would be involved when all the talks on the matter are described as speculative ? You are clearly making it up as you go along."
No I am comenting on the debate, all of the issues I have mentioned are being openly discussed on the pages of newspapers and sports programmes. And I hardly think you can accuse me of speculating when you actually listed the cities in each country that would have a stadium! I dint pull that up as all any of us can do is speculate, both you and I. But I agree with commentators who say that the transpot links and number of hotel rooms will be more of a problem than the stadia, and that this is also the reason they would try to concentrate it in two areas. "They could easily change the rules on that so that all three don't get to qualify automatically just as they changed it from 16 to 24 teams recently." They could, but which two would qualify and would they still want to host it if they were not playing in it? They changed it from 16 to 24 teams as that suited more members to vote for it. Likewise those same members migh be voting themselves out of the finals if they agree to a joint bid, so any UEFA member ranked from 10 to 30 would want 23 rather than 22 or 21 qualifying places. And, I still dont see what Scottish footbal gains from this. |
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| William_Cleland |
I am not accusing you of speculating. I am accusing you of making stuff up on the fly and presenting it as hard fact.
Why waste time with bogus arguments as to why it can't possibly happen when you could instead simply explain why you think it shouldn't be pursued by the politicians? I would have thought it obvious that what Scottish football would gain would be a stadium legacy as has happened in Portugal after Euro 2004. The cash injected into the economy by all the people visiting would indirectly help to recoup the expenses for that. The number of new stadia required may be fewer than I initially thought. Germany used just 12 venues for the 32 team World Cup in 2006. It would probably be possible to ditch at least two out of three of Inverness, Londonderry and Newport from my original list by using Edinburgh and Cardiff twice in the first round, for example. |
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| Cymro |
I don't think the hotels, or lack of will necessarily be an issue. Wales has already hosted the Rugby World Cup in 1999 (along with some games being held in other countries) and hosted some games when the Rugby World Cup was in France in 2007. When they where here in 1999 hotels sprang up across Cardiff like Mushrooms, and they are good quality ones too. The Rugby World Cup is the third or maybe fourth largest Sporting Event in the World. On top of this it's more than coped with the FA Cup, League Cup and Play Off Matches that have been held in the city while Wembley was rebuilt. On top of that Glasgow and Edinburgh have been cities which have welcomed a huge amout of tourists every year for many years so it too should be able to more than deal with the influx of visitors this would entail. In terms of Stadia, well clearly 3 in Glasgow, 2 in Cardiff and the strong possibility of 1 new one in Belfast is a strong start. Wrexhams Racecourse Ground was developed extensively for the Rugby World Cup. As part of this development the roof on the Mold Road Stand was designed in a way which would allow it to be removed and the stand extended fairly easily. Also the club are in the process of going through planning permission for a new stand in place of the Kop. The Yale Stand is in need of updating but has more than ample space behind it for extending. The Welsh Assembly for a while have been on about securing the Racecourse as top quality stadium for North Wales, so the political will is there to support it. The Liberty Stadium in Swansea is in the middle of nowhere and is new so is able to be extended fairly easily. So it too is potentially easy. Don't think Newport is a starter though. |
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| Rinty |
Look, Scotland has a problem with hotel rooms as it is. We are not talking about the total number of rooms, it is about spare capacity. At present it is difficult to get a room in Glasgow if something is on and struggle throughout the week when capacity is used by business. All of those business trips, conferences etc that currently stretch the capacity will still be taking place while the cities will have to host huge numbers, far in excess of the numbers at the commonwealth games and rugby world cup combined.
Just the press, players and officials would fill all spare capacity in the major hotels. This isnt an overnight stay where fans will camp out, they could be here for weeks. This was reported in the herald and other papers before I mentioned it here. As was the idea that the finals would be centred in two areas. The 1999 Rugby world cup was hosted by wales but matches were played in wales, scotland, ireland, england, france and Northern Ireland. Rugby doesnt have the numbers of trevelling spporters that football does, it is a different scenario. Scotland & Wales would have to host far more people for longer and without the help of england, NI, Ireland and France. "I am not accusing you of speculating. I am accusing you of making stuff up on the fly and presenting it as hard fact." I am presenting my view based on what I have read. I know that Scotlands transport and accommodation just about keeps up with the events we have currently, and that this is far in excess of anything we normally host. I have read, and it makes sense to me, that a way of minimising the investment required to upgrade infrastructure would be to centre it in one area in each country. I know people who worked with spanish fans a couple of years ago in Glasgow for a european final. For even a one-off game, not a tournament spread out over nearly a month, it was a struggle to get them accomodated and moved around. The Scottish business community constantly complain that we need more roads, bigger airports, and more hotels, even before this announcement, with many complaining our airports cannot cope with any increase. So, you might disagree with this but it is only specualtion based on how we read it and iour own interpretations William. I maintain that, if this bid goes ahead, it will be with just Scotland and Wales, wihout NI. I maintain that the main problem will not be building or funding enough stadiums, it will be convincing the other uefa members that we can cope with such a huge event, only the olympics and world cup are bigger in terms of what is needed to support an event. And I speculate that, if the bid goes ahead, it will be held in the Central Belt of Scotland, and South Wales. It is my opinion that the money and effort could be better spent. "Why waste time with bogus arguments as to why it can't possibly happen when you could instead simply explain why you think it shouldn't be pursued by the politicians? " I think it must be someone else who said that, not me. Politicians will want to be seen to be backing this as "positive". But, when it comes to public money being invested, they should look at whether the "legacy" is worth it. I suspect that they will not be willing to invest much money but will all be willing to make it look like they back the plan. The probably should pursue this, at least in the exploratory stages. |
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| Cymro |
Rinty, you're missing the point regarding hotels. What I'm saying is that pre 1999 there was a shortage of quality hotels in Cardiff too, however announcing the 1999 Rugby World Cup was coming meant hotels of quality sprouted up across the capital and neighbouring areas like Mushrooms. The fact that there is a shortage of hotels in Scotland now actually strengthens the business case for this as an increase of hotels would be economically viable way beyond the possible arrival of the European Championships.
I know that the Rugby World Cup was shared between a few countries, but that was more to do with politics and viable stadia than lack of accomodation etc in Cardiff. France have hosted the Football World Cup recently, yet in 2007 when the hosted the Rugby World Cup they played some games in Cardiff, Edinburgh, Dublin and London. It was part of the agreements between these countries to support Wales application for the WC in 1999 and Frances application in 2007. The Rugby World Cup is also bigger than the European Championships. I would also argue that there is a strong economic case for applying for the European Championships by Wales and Scotland, aside from the influx in tourism the jobs created by investment in the necessary infrastructure for taking on such a large sporting event would be of huge benefit for the economy of Wales and Scotland. |
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| Rinty |
"The fact that there is a shortage of hotels in Scotland now actually strengthens the business case for this as an increase of hotels would be economically viable way beyond the possible arrival of the European Championships."
I agree, my point is that UEFA will look at the current situation and consider where we are in terms of reaching this. Whether we can have the infratsructure in place is more important than the stadiums. I think we all agree that getting the stdiums ready would not be insurmountable. Whether Scotland has the hotel roms and transoprt links by 2016 is less certain. Also, there is a point wher the current multiple hotel plans in place will reach enough for Scotlands needs. Hosting a commonwealth games or Rugby World Cup helps get to that level. There is the question of whether Scotland needs the number of hotel rooms needed for an event like thos AFTER the event, if the number was reached. Glasgow and Edinburgh dont have great links with other cities and countries like hjoint bids on mainland europe do. That is what makes the infractsructure more important this time. If the games are in Poland or Austria people can base thesmelves in Germany or the Czech Republic and commute. In Scotland, we cant provide a decent commute even from England. Siuth Wales is n=better placed in that respce tthan Scotland. I understand your point re the rugby world cup. I didnt claim that it was spread because cardiff didnt have hotel rooms. What I am saying is, that because it wasnt staged exclusively in wales, we didnt get to test whether Wales could have hosted this event. I am not cionvinced that there is an economic boost from these events really, very few places who stage major events see a benefit. The smaller events, like commonwealth, rugby one-off euro finals etc, are manageable. but this is a huge event with numbers beyind anything we have done before. Id love to see it happening, I just think that the chances are slim and am not convinced that they benefits exist. |
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| Rinty |
"The fact that there is a shortage of hotels in Scotland now actually strengthens the business case for this as an increase of hotels would be economically viable way beyond the possible arrival of the European Championships."
I agree, my point is that UEFA will look at the current situation and consider where we are in terms of reaching this. Whether we can have the infratsructure in place is more important than the stadiums. I think we all agree that getting the stdiums ready would not be insurmountable. Whether Scotland has the hotel roms and transoprt links by 2016 is less certain. Also, there is a point wher the current multiple hotel plans in place will reach enough for Scotlands needs. Hosting a commonwealth games or Rugby World Cup helps get to that level. There is the question of whether Scotland needs the number of hotel rooms needed for an event like thos AFTER the event, if the number was reached. Glasgow and Edinburgh dont have great links with other cities and countries like hjoint bids on mainland europe do. That is what makes the infractsructure more important this time. If the games are in Poland or Austria people can base thesmelves in Germany or the Czech Republic and commute. In Scotland, we cant provide a decent commute even from England. Siuth Wales is n=better placed in that respce tthan Scotland. I understand your point re the rugby world cup. I didnt claim that it was spread because cardiff didnt have hotel rooms. What I am saying is, that because it wasnt staged exclusively in wales, we didnt get to test whether Wales could have hosted this event. I am not cionvinced that there is an economic boost from these events really, very few places who stage major events see a benefit. The smaller events, like commonwealth, rugby one-off euro finals etc, are manageable. but this is a huge event with numbers beyind anything we have done before. Id love to see it happening, I just think that the chances are slim and am not convinced that they benefits exist. |
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| Cymro |
Regarding the economic boost, well in the more immediate term you'd get a boost to the economy where eomployment would be created in the building and civil engineering industries and linked industries by the necessary investments needed to bring Scotland and Wales up to standard. The individial benefits of hosting one off sporting events like the Euros may not be as great as is made out but its spin offs can be. Again, looking at Wales. It proved in 1999 it could more than cope with a large sporting tournament, and it was this more than any other factor which enabled Wales to then host a series of other sporting events like the FA Cup Final etc. Also since then Cardiff has also welcomed European Conferences etc too. It's these that often do make the economic difference. |
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| William_Cleland |
And the bogus arguments continue. How on earth did 250,000 Rangers supporters make it to Manchester given these poor transportation links?  It could just as easily have been Cardiff. The problem with the last bid that way was all the travel between the RoI and Scotland given the sea crossing that is required. Northern Ireland's involvement is potentially problematic but upwards of 5000 fans regularly make the trip over from Ulster to watch both halves of the Old Firm so again it is not insurmountable. I suspect there would have to be two NI venues so the first round group would require no trips to the mainland until qualification to the latter stages.
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| Rinty |
You're kidding, right? Those fans travelled by road, most of them were home that night or early in the morning. They didnt have to travel to different cities for different games, from a base in a foreign country, several times, over the course of a few weeks, along with fans of other teams also doing the same over those weeks. You are not comparing like with like. When I was on my way to seville in 2003 I was in France on the Sunday and made my way down to barcelona that day thinking I had plenty of time. When I got to Barcelona I discovered that the arrival of celtic fans had led to every train and bus from anywhere to seville being fully booked! That was just 70,000 fans, in fact less, as many of those didnt arrive until tuesday or wednesday. The thing is that cities and countries can cope with that as a one-off, but not over weeks even with smaller numbers. I am sure that the rangers exodus to mancehester was mainly done in 24 hrs or not much more, it would have brought manchester to a stanstill for a few days and even been chaos after the game when the roads and trains would normally be quieter. manchester, it turns out, didnt cope very well with it even though it was all over and done with just hours after the game. If your teams games are in Edinburgh and Glasgow, you wouldnt want to be based in Manchester and using public transport, no way. That is my point. I had a meeting in Glasgow todat at 11.30, i was waiting for the 0943 train which should have arrived in Glasgow an hour later. The train was 20 mins late, 15 minutes later we are at Kilmarnock and an announcement tells us we will be at this station for another 40 minutes. I had to get out and get a taxi! If we had Dutch fans whose matches were in Glasgow and in Edinburgh, they couldnt even base themselves in Ayrshire and be guaranteed of making the match on time! Dont underestimate the amount of people who will be coming and going over a month, some staying a few days, some staying weeks, some flying in and out for short trips, the biggest sporting event outside of the world cup and olympics in terms of fans. I think, when UEFA look at this in 2009, that they will be looking at a joint Wales/Scotland bid, with no N. Ireland, the plan will be to base games in South Wales and Central Scotland, and that UEFA will have very few concerns about our ability to deliver enough quality stadiums, but will be concerned that the cities involved might not be able to cater for the numbers. Call it a prediction if you like, I am quite surprised that you havent heard anyone else saying this. Lets see, when UEFA consider the matter, how wide of the mark I am. |
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| William_Cleland |
You've really answered your own point on this. Using a fleet of chartered buses this can be easily solved and even turned into a source of revenue. With just 20 buses you can move 1000 fans from Glasgow to Aberdeen in one morning. The Old Firm routinely used to be able to take over 10,000 fans to every hick town in Scotland that way long before most of the population had access to a car. Even the sea crossing to Ulster isn't necessarily a huge issue as extra ferry capacity can also be arranged on a temporary basis in much the same way. |
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| Rinty |
You are missing the point. Fans travelling from and to places they know, from their home, over a few hours in one day, is nothing compared to the logistics of tens of thousands of fans based in a foreign country at the same time.
Those fans who go to aberdeen to support the old firm, are there and back in one day, back home. supporters at EUROs will be going from one hotel base to another for the next game. If, as you suggest, that would be moving between places like Wrexham, Belfast and Aberdeen, it would be a nightmare. We can cope with a one off rush for one day, on the roads. It is an entirely different matter. How many fleets of buses are available, day after day, for 4 weeks? Euro 2008 had over one million fans at games, this will be bigger. We can cope, as a one-off, with T-in the park, but it does bring traffic to a standstill and use every bus available. Can we cope with 40 t-in-the parks over a month? Again, it is even more dificult as most T-in the parkers are from Scotland and are going home the next day so dont need luggage, hotels etc. AND, they are not moving from T-in-the park to another festival 3 days later and then to another 3 days after that. BTW, T-in-the park, and all of the other things that people use transport, buses and hotels for, will still be taking place on top of this. Our airports will be at their peak tim in the summer and all of our airports already claim they are struggling to cope with current capacity. Look, we dont need to argue about this really, I have no vested interest in whether any of this emerges as a problem or not. I am raising what I think will be Scotland's problam in this bid. UEFA will want to know that airport expansions, new hotels, improved roads, train links to airports etc, will be avaialbel in 2016. Eight years is not a long time to get things like that in place and would require serious investment. I think that UEFA will be more concerned with Scotland's ability to handle the event logistically, than they will about the number of stadia. |
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| William_Cleland |
Making it up as you go along again. Wrexham wouldn't be paired with Aberdeen at the group stages. Get a grip! |
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| Blackleaf |
To host the European championships with 16 teams, a host must have a minimum of 8 stadiums with a capacity above 30,000, three above 40,000 and a 4-star rating, and one of those three requiring 50,000 seats and a 5-star rating.
With 24 teams, the numbers are obviusly higher. England could easily host the Euros (it hosted Euro96, the first 16 team tournament) - it has 24 stadiums with a capacity of 30,000 or higher. They are (in descending order of size) Wembley, Old Trafford, the Emirates, St James' Park, Stadium of Light, City of Manchester Stadium, Anfield, Villa Park, Stamford Bridge, Goodison Park, Elland Road, Hillsborough, White Hart Lane, The Boleyn (improperly called Upton Park), The Riverside, Pride Park, St Mary's, Bramall Lane, Walkers Stadium, Ricoh Arena, Ewood Park, The City Ground, Portman Road and St Andrew's. By contrast, Scotland has just three - Hampden, Ibrox and Parkhead - and they are all in the same city. Wales has just one - the Millennium Stadium. So England has six times as many stadiums with a capacity of 30,000 or more than Scotland and Wales put together. Four stadiums is nowwhere near enough, so in order to host the Euros a LOT of renovating and modernisation needs to be done in Wales and Scotland. I think you have no chance. The Daily Record earlier this week, which wasn't confident about Scotland and Wales's chances of hosting the tournament, said the time isn't too far off when the hosting of the Euros rotates between only England, Spain, Germany, Italy and France. And the only reason Scotland wishes to host the European Championships is so they can actually play in them. Only twice has Scotland played in the Euros, and the last was Euro96 in England when they failed to get past the group stage. |
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| Blackleaf |
There were no 2007 Rugby World Cup games in London and Dublin. The only cities outside France that hosted games were Cardiff and Edinburgh, and Wales and Scotland played their homes games in those cities. Wales played Fiji and Canada at the Millennium Stadium, which seems unfair to me. Any rugby fan who wasn't Welsh or Scottish saw it, rightly, as unfair advantage to the Welsh and Scots. I wonder how Wales and Scotland would have fared if they actually played their games in France, as the two Finalists, England and South Africa, had to. |
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| Cymro |
My mistake regarding London and Dublin, though I do fail to understand what the hell the rest of your post has to do with this subject Racistleaf. Your point is a bit muddled up (suprise suprise) as well erm, France, they had home advantage in ALL there matches, and Wales lost their match against Fiji in France, not Wales. Had England hosted some games they would have got to have home advantage but they didn't. You see, this tournament was held without the help of England, they wheren't needed. The organisers used the World Class facilities in Wales and Scotland instead. Funny that eh? And regarding your previous posts, you seem to argue that in order to qualify for hosting these sort of tournaments you seen to have always had stadias in place. Well England only really saw big changes as a result of the Prem coming into existance in the early 90's and accelerated as a result of hosting, yes you guessed it, the European Championship in 1996. So, this tournament could in the same way held lead to an inprovement in our own football and sporting stadia. Keep clutching at those straws you may strike it lucky one day.....though I doubt it. |
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