| Archive for Our Scotland - www.our-scotland.org Scottish Politics Discussion Forum / Messageboard - Dedicated to online discussion about Scottish Politics and an Independent Scotland, as well as Scottish Society today. We also have a section dedicated to Banter, Sport and Recommended Sites. |
| Jimbo |
Scotland misrepresented in TelegraphA piece of reporting in today's Telegraph which caused some inflammatory anti Scottish/English remarks in their comments section.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinio...ml=/opinion/2007/10/22/dl2201.xml |
||||||||||||
| Aventinian |
Eurgh. Nationalism. | ||||||||||||
| Economist |
Actually, I think you'll find, coming from the Telegraph, that type of reporting is Unionist in its nature. Indeed not just Unionist, but Conservative too. In fact it is very Unionist and displays all the symptoms of the disease that we've come to know and love given it woefully distorts the facts of the matter in hand. Indeed it was Unionism that created the state of affairs that exists at the current time - the desire to maintain the Union above all else that has put us on the "motorway without exits to independence". |
||||||||||||
| Aventinian |
I don't see how arbitrarily identifying taxes as "English" or "Scottish" is in any way Unionist. Moreover, I was probably focusing more on the comments section when it came to my expression of disgust. I am aware the Telegraph is nominally Conservative - I read it reasonably often - but that's hardly relevant.
I don't think that is a desire. If it was, it's been rather stupidly gone about. |
||||||||||||
| Economist |
Common parlance in unionist circles these days - and you don't have to look too far to find some examples. I am aware the Telegraph is nominally Conservative - I read it reasonably often - but that's hardly relevant.
Well. I'm not sure how else one could describe it. Generally those in political and other office, who support the Union - and vehemently so - do so because they have a vested interest in it. They gain, disproportionately from the Union in some way. I say the same for private citizens in Scotland who only support the Union because of financial and microeconomic reasons. |
||||||||||||
| Aventinian |
Cynical nonsense that you have absolutely no evidence to support. Meanwhile of course we are expected to believe that everyone in the SNP are gallant freedom fighters with liberty beating deep within their hearts in everything they do? What rot. |
||||||||||||
| Economist |
Let's face it, amongst the population of Scotland, when it comes to the Union, opinion ranges from the outright disintersted to the outright hostile. Very, very few are evangelical about the union, to the extent Unionist politicians are - especially unionist politicians who hold office at UK level. It doesn't take a great leap of imagination to link Gordon Brown and his position to his. Then of course there is the inability of Unionist politicians to muster a coherent argument to support the Union ranging from the absurd "Scotland would be a haven for terrorists after independence" (John Reid) to the classical fudge we don't to explain our support for the Union "cos its in our DNA" (Annabel Goldie) to the downright trite we just don't support independence (Nicol Stephen).
Not at all, not what I said, or indeed what I inferred. |
||||||||||||
| Aventinian |
It's times like this I wonder if Scottish Nationalists live in some sort of strange bubble or simply make themselves willfully blind to anything they dislike. There does seem to be a connection between foaming at the mouth nationalism and living in the back of beyond with a pitchfork at your door... Anyway, in my experiences this is entirely false. Obviously the average person is not in any way evangelical about politics - I've never waxed poetic about liberalism and the merits of private property ownership to my friends. However to pretend this is disinterested or apathetic is of course nonsense. Equally in my community, nobody discussed the merits of the fox hunting ban when it arose because simple support for the status quo was assumed - yet, following a discussion with my MSP, I heard that it was one of the first questions he was asked. Politicians are evangelical, as you put it, about political issues because they are politicians. To the vast majority of us, the status quo is simply natural and doesn't require discussion. When the issue came up of the Scottish elections, I heard many people curse Scottish nationalism openly. If anything, it is that ideology held in contempt by the majority.
Scotland likely would be a haven for terrorists if it didn't have sufficient security to deal with them. Alex Salmond et al maintain a child-like naivety to anything that goes on outside their borders, in my estimation. Annabel Goldie made a specific point out of not getting bogged down in constitutional questions over the last election. This was because, quite rightly, she considered them irrelevant and preferred to focus on things that matter. Nicol Stephen, I'm sure, does not need to explain his position. Nationalism is repugnant to any Liberal, that is central to his ideology. |
||||||||||||
| Economist |
I've heard that one from you before, Aventinian. I do think you need to start trying to understand people's points of view and how that relates to the arguments they make. You might not agree with it, but thats not relevant. I mean I understand that point you are coming from on many issues and how that attaches itself to what you believe. I may not agree with it and may frequently find it illogical and contradictory, but I can at least see where you are coming from.
So, getting back to the point I made before, you don't believe that when you strip out the evangelical Unionists (whether they be politicians or others) the vast majority of Scots range in opinion from the benignly disinterested to actively hostile towards the Union? Of course people are generally disinterested and apathetic, not just about the Union, but politics in general. It is a malaise of the times. You don't believe, seriously that Gordon Brown's Unionism has anything to do with where he is now - and the position he occupies? Indeed imagine what he'd lose if there was no Union.
Oh please, and you think I live in a bubble.
I haven't got the time, inclination or want to pull this irony to shreds, suffice to say I don't think we're in the realms of reality here.
The point seemed to be that she didn't need to explain her Unionism. That seems pretty clear on the broad face of it. Possibly linked with that is misbelief that somehow having a debate on the constitutional issue means we neglect everything else - especially in an election campaign. Her inability to muster a coherent argument on the matter - which is possible without getting bogged down in the aforesaid argument was clearly missing in the script somewhere.
Being a Liberal never seemed to bother him before - and didn't show itself in many of the policies he was party to. Indeed any Liberal or Libertarian, I have come across has been a far bigger nationalist than I could ever hope to be. |
||||||||||||
| agentmancuso |
I'm not. |
||||||||||||
| agentmancuso |
It may be true that many Labour politicians support the Union because of the simple mathematics of obtaining a majority in Westminster. But it is hardly credible to generalise that anyone who does so has a vested interest. |
||||||||||||
| Babygael |
You guy's nit pickin' again???
Bottom line...... Scotland was and will be once more, a Soverign nation and has always been Independent in spirit..... I guess some folk canny realise just how deep this spirit of Independence runs? It not just a good idea you know, it is an inherieted trait for at least 1000 years. So hey! Why knock it? Go with the flow babes .......... 
|
||||||||||||
| will live from Glasgow |
^well how important is Soverignty? Id join a united states of Europe in a second with a capital in Brussels, does that mean im not scottish?
and hey slavery was an inherited trait for a few thousand years maybe we should keep that one up to |
||||||||||||
| Babygael |
Nope, you are as Scottish as you declare you are. 
Slavery?? The union is colonial slavery and nothing but! |
||||||||||||