scots abroad

parkhead_rfb · scots abroad

ok its from the daily record but here goes...

SCOTS heading to Poland for stag trips are being warned not to lift their kilts - or our national dress could be banned.

The good burghers of Krakow and Warsaw are sick of the sight of boozed-up "men in skirts" flashing their bits in the street.

And the authorities in another popular stag night destination, the city of Wroclaw, have become so fed-up with the badly behaved minority of Scots they are seriously considering outlawing the kilt.

With beer at £1 a pint and £50 flights from Prestwick, Poland is fast becoming a favourite destination for Scots stag parties.

But a few morons seem determined to abuse the hospitality of the locals, and residents have made a string of complaints about kilt-lifting drunks.

Angry Agnieska Gaspar, 23, from Krakow, said: "You can't go round the corner without seeing a Scot showing off what he has under his kilt while one of his mates photographs him.

"I saw one lying in the gutter the other day with his kilt around his waist. He was drunk and it was freezing cold - I'm surprised he did not get frostbite."

The council in Wroclaw confirmed that they are looking into banning kilts, despite the police telling them they are perfectly legal.

A council spokesman asked: "Why would we want to see what Scotsmen wear under their kilts?

"We encourage people from all parts of the world to come here and enjoy themselves and obviously, if they want, to have a few drinks.

"The wearing of national dress is equally acceptable. But we do not want drunken hordes making people feel as if they do not want to go out on the streets at night for fear of who or what they might encounter.

"So far, the police have told us there can be no ban on kilts in our town as they are an accepted form of dress and there is nothing offensive about it.

"However, we are still looking into the matter. We have had a number of complaints from people who were confronted by drunks lifting their kilts and this is not the kind of behaviour our city wants to see."

A newspaper in Wroclaw has condemned the Scots' antics and carried photos of the flashers.

A spokesman for the paper, Dziennik, said: "It's easy to spot these so-called 'tourists' from a mile off. They wear kilts and leave behind them broken tables and chairs in bars.

"Then they stop people, smile at them and lift up their kilts to show what's underneath.

"But what is worse is that they go around doing it unpunished and our police do nothing. It is time to act."

Police in Wroclaw have now vowed to arrest kilt-lifters on sight.

Poland's representative in Scotland, consul general Aleksander Dietcow, branded the kilt-lifters "sad". He said: "I think part of the reason this is being highlighted is that because of their kilts, Scots are highly visible, especially when they misbehave."

Genuine kilt fans fear that the stag night yobs are tarnishing Scotland's reputation abroad.

Hamish Husband, of the west of Scotland arm of the Tartan Army, said: "This seems to go back to the warriors showing their bottoms in Braveheart. I think the danger is that this behaviour becomes associated with us.

"The kilt is a badge of honour and should be worn with pride. It shouldn't be lifted to shock people - that's immature and juvenile."

A spokeswoman for tourism body visitscotland said the kilt is an important symbol of Scotland as a "warm and friendly nation".

She added: "It would be a shame if a minority gave Scotland a bad name."

parkhead_rfb

see this is the kind of "scottishness" that I hate, the tartan army are also very guilty of this.

their sum idea of being scottish is to run around in a tartan skirt, wich really has nothing much to do with scottish history and flash their arses and expect locals to love them for it.

these c***s should be horse whipped.

Aventinian

I don't really get the appeal of flashing your arse in some European town centre, but worse things have happened.

What is it with this country and making complete idiots of themselves abroad?

wisnaeme

Aventinian

Cymro

Funny, I've been out in various places, both in the UK and elsewhere on rugby and football trips and seen idiots flashing their arses. None of them where wearing Kilts.

Pretty nothing of a story "Authorities ask people on drunken trips not to flash their arses".

Just an excuse for another attack on the Tartan Army Parkie?

Are Celtic fans angels on away trips?

Corby Boy

Parkhead I can empathise with you on the moronic behaviour of these people and the TA and tourist authorities are right to be concerned as indicated by the article.

I do find your vehement attitude towards kilt wearing and Scottishness etc., a little surprising.

The kilt is associated with Scotland and rightly so. The modern kilt was a C18th invention (so that the great wrap wouldn't get burnt when highlanders worked in a foundry during the industrial revolution) and the modern tartan industry all started with Sir Walter Scott and the visit of the then King George to Scotland in 1822 or thereabouts and followed on by Queen Vic etc...

However, the kilt has been a feature of a huge element of Scottish culture for many centuries before then (e.g. the British empire era).

i.e. that of the highland (gaelic) clans from the Fealdh Mhor - pre-Culloden. Earliest tartans date from the dark ages found in a bog near Falkirk.

So, to infer that kilts/tartan do not have much to do with Scotland/Scottish culture is erroneous. You really should find out a little more about the country you live in before making such judgements.

I do recall also, although granted not many Irish fans don them, that the kilt is also part of Irish culture (as there is of course the commonality here between Irish and Highland Scots culture).

Last time I was in County Kerry for a conference, we were serenaded by an Irish Piper in full kilted regalia. Also, I have known two Irishmen proud to wear the kilt. Please also see the many ads that pop up advertising for Irish tartans on said internet - this site being one of them no less.

Also see St Pat's Day marches in NY, Chicago etc.... Pogues video of Fairytale of NY....

Would you be so quick to condemn these people also, if they started boozing and lifting their kilts and making a holy show of themselves?

Cymro, I also believe the Welsh are joining in on the 'cilt' (as the Welsh call it) wearing club, I have seen the shop in Cardiff and the display of Welsh tartans in the Holiday Inn near the Millenium Stadium.

Cymro

Yes we have seen recent developments with regards to a Welsh Kilt. I actually wore a Welsh National Kilt for my wedding in Scotland over the summer. I wouldn't wear one in an occasion here in Wales, it's not a Welsh dress. As I was having a Scottish wedding in Scotland I opted for it.

I honestly don't see though how this story merrits an attack on a Tartan Army by Parkhead-rfb though. This is just unfortunalty the behaviour of a group of people, who are in to respects representative of 'normal' football fans who tag along for a football or rugby trip purely for the piss up. No more no less.

These same people can be seen doing exactly the same things in towns and cities across the UK on any weekend as well as places like Majorca, Magaluf, Ibiza etc any summer.

As I said, I'm sure even the likes of Celtic have elements who participate in this sort of immature behaviour.

Jimbo

Scots abroad have been doing this for years. A Canon from the diocese of Cambrai commented on the appearance of Scots travelling through Flanders in 1147 on their way to the Crusades. He noted that the Scots wore a covering to the knee closed over at the front and the back but open at the sides 'and it was clearly seen that these people were not wearing drawers'. Geoffrey Barrow describes elements of the Scottish host of 1296 'an effect of nakedness about the lower quarters of the body which had long struck foreign observers with amazement'.

Jimbo

Corby Boy wrote

i.e. that of the highland (gaelic) clans from the Fealdh Mhor - pre-Culloden. Earliest tartans date from the dark ages found in a bog near Falkirk.

It's known as the Falkirk Sett. http://www.clans.org.uk/tartans.html

parkhead_rfb

if an irish person wants to dress up like a leprachaun and run around being an arse then they are a fud, if they do so wearing a kilt they are a fud.

in terms of this particular problem the tartan army are just professionals at this type of fuddery thats why i brought it up. "its ok for me to run about like an extra from rob roy, flashing my arse and annoying people cos am a cheeky chappie from the tartan army".

The idea that a guy kicking about like a fall out from a short bread tin being the best way we can come up with to promote scotland depresses me.

I know the old predictable "ah but the celtic fans/irish..." reply will surface here but thats got nothing to do with this thread. if people want to post articles on those two groups behaving like fuds then we can discuss that. my points about scotland.

Also pretty funny how i am criticised for enjoying irish culture, being interested in its politics etc as i should take more of an interest in scotland then when i comment on a scottish issue people always want to bring it back to ireland.....strange.

Cymro

No Parkie, you purposly avoid issues again.

I am aware of Welsh fans who travel dressed in Welsh Wife Costumes (which where never really worn here in Waless), I was in Scotland for the rugby and a large number where dressed up as Colliers. Stereotypical images of Wales. And guess what it was all a bit of fun. Adds a bit of humour to an away trip.

Irish people dressed as leprechauns and Scots dressed in Kilts are two different things, but both are about people just having a bit of fun.

Regarding them flashing their arses (and probably other private parts) though you used it as yet another attack on the Tartan Army. So do they all flash their arses do they?

Not having a go at you for showing an interest in Scottish things. You came here posted a message practically tarring all Scottish football fans with the same brush. Not really "showing an interest" is it!

Celtic fans will have fans who behave in just the same way. The difference being you won't be coming on here tarring all Tic fans with the same brush will you!

Enjoy the Scotland vs Georgia match tomorrow. Oh, no sorry you don't care about your own country in football do you Parkie!

Rinty · g

FFS! This was a story in the Daily Record, rfb made quite reasonable comments that will be heard everywhere. Yet once again his own ethnicity is brought up and he is challenged!

Collective bullying is how I would describe it.

For the record - I think the tartan army are an embarrassment but not Scotland fans in general, like rfb I think the irishness in St Paddys parades etc is also an embarrassment.

If someone was in full highland dress for another reason it wouldnt be comparable with leprechaun suits. BUT, the tartan army's attire of short "dress" kilts, football tops, and caterpillar boots is comparable to jimmy wigs, leprechaun suits etc.

Give him a break folks!

darkside

i wear my kilt at scotland games, historical events etc will that make me a fud? if its does im glad to be a fud

Rinty

No it doesnt make you a fud, but in general the people rfb is talking about dressing up for football matches and st patricks parades are fuds.

My uncle wears a kilt lots, but he doesnt wear it with the accesories of football top, designer boots and can of stella. He also doesnt pish in folks gardens, lift his kilt or any other fuddish behaviour.

RFB didnt write this story.

parkhead_rfb

no cymro i wont be watching the game and apart from any celtic players playing i wont really give a toss to be honest.

I could always pretend though if it makes you feel better about enforcing your idea that people should automatically feel passionate about a team because of a country i happened to be born in.

I suppose i do like to see england lose mind you.

kevin04

I'm going to two weddings in the summer and recently purchased a new kilt and I'll wear it with pride going to these bashes, I agree though that there are some embarrasing cases with the kilt, Flashing your bits in Poland, Belarus or wherever is not on and I don't think people think it's funny, you'd probably get arrested if you did it in Scotland..

We have great support though for our national team and majority of fans are fantastic when they go abroad,

Parkhead, Do you follow Ireland or just have no interest in international football at all? My brother is a celtic fan and he has no interest what's so all about International football, He'll watch a big scotland game but doesn't put him up nor down.

George

Cymro

Parkie, I'm morbidly curious as to why you refuse to support the Scottish football team being a Scot and all. I would support Wales in flaiming tiddly winks if they where competing in it. You are a football fan who is born and bread in Scotland. I can't for the life of me see why therefore your own country playing football doesn't warrant support?

Is it for political purposes?

I can understand people not supporting Northern Ireland when they are Republican etc.

IF Ireland competed as 1 country in footballing terms as they already do in Rugby Union. Would you be supporting them instead?

Just interested.

And back to the original reason for you posting. George has hit the nail on it's head when he says that flashing your arse - even while wearing a kilt, isn't 'Scottishness'. It's "Drunken people being arses on holiday'. People do that whether supporting Wales, England, Ireland or Scotland or Celtic, Rangers, Liverpool, Everton, or even Cardiff City (not Wrecsam AFC we're far too refined! Cool

). To use this as some sing of Scottishness is just daft.

Aventinian

SLG

Babygael

Weel ah canna spik fae Brits, but as a Scot living abroad ah can honestly say ah hiv never flashed ma arse at ony time. Shocked

parkhead_rfb

parkhead_rfb

Aventinian

SLG

Corby Boy

Rinty/Parkie, thank you both for answering some of the questions posed in my earlier post.

I have nothing but respect for the Irish community in Scotland (and what Parkhead represents) and don't have a problem with folk supporting Celtic (or whatever team) and not supporting the national side - personal choice again. My mate supports Liverpool fanatically, but doesn't give a monkey's about England.

It's refreshing to hear that you would regard any fan of any country wearing comedy regalia or dropping their draws as a 'fud' and an embarrassment. (Scuse my ignorance, but what is a 'fud'? anyway).

I do object to any inference from anyone, that wearing a kilt somehow is a naff way of displaying national pride in your own country, period, that in my view is wrong.

I am a proud kilt wearer at times (usually formal events), but would never dream of debasing it by flashing or behaving like a complete 'K**b either'. As for bright yellow walking boots - nah! How to make your legs look like golf clubs!

I see it as an honour and priviledge to wear, which should never be devalued like these morons cited in the Record seem to do.

Rinty · h

Im not against the kilt and I dont think rfb was in his post either. In made it clear that I have an uncle who weras one most of the time, its the flashing, drinking, and pishing in gardens I object to AND the portrayal of yobs as cheeky chappies.

BTW a "fud" is a "fanny".

Cymro

But, is it "the Tartan Army" that behaves like that? Or just idiots who tagalong on these sort of trips. For me, the Tartan Army are the passionate true supporters of Scottish football who travel to follow their country all across the place. Yes they might dress 'flamboyantly' to draw attention to themselves, but this is very different to flashing, and generally being antisocial.

This was the point I was trying to make - that it's not fair of Parkhead to use the bahaviour of these people as some sort of attack on real suppoters who associate themselves with the name 'Tartan Army' but don't do anything worse than wear kilts, and drink.

Rinty

All rfb did was post an article from a paper reflecting the views of another country to our travelling supporters.

Cymro

And comment on it, words like "c***s" etc don't sit well.

Rinty

He commented on those who behave like that. Whereas you choose to lump all celtic supporters in to a unionist label and that is ok?

George

Cymro

Rinty

By "doing an Aiden McGeady" I assume you mean being snubbed by Scotland's archaic schools FA system, getting picked for another country when he wasnt allowed to play for Scotland and then, when he had settled in to that other national set up, not wanting to risk moving when Scotland came calling years later?

Hopefully Scotland will do away with the silly schools FA rule before we lose any other McGeady's. I know one young man who is signed for Rangers and played with my son who was barred from Scotland like McGeady because of the schools rule. He didnt have any other nationality to fall back on and is now in Scotlands national set up but him and his father would have happily went to another country if picked to get international experience. Luckily for Scotland he didnt.

You do realise that McGeady and others were banned from Scotlands international set up because they didnt play for their own school? Celtic and Rangers (and now most SPL teams) do not allow their young signings to play schools football as the coaching and facilities are poor and playing too much football can lead to injuries at an early age. Because of this they are not available to Scotland until after they leave school.

McGeady was lucky enough to have another option in Ireland. When Scotland came calling his Ireland youth coach had become the national senior coach, McGeady was being quoted for a full international call up, and he decided to stay where he was.

Those who boo McGeady expose themselves as the bigots as they do not boo McLean at Motherwell who plays for N.Ireland despite being Scottish.

Cymro

Yes that's exactly what I mean Rinty Wink

. I recall you saying about the situation with McGeady before and it does look pretty daft by the SFA. Why do they insist on not changing the rules then? I assume that they see some 'pro' to keeping it as it is?

Personally if I could kick a ball straight but couldn't play for Wales because of those stupid rules I would not go off and play for England if I was entitled or anyother place. Im of the belief that playing for your country is an honour and you should play for your country not that of a country who you qualify because your grandparent once visited years ago. In the same sense I do not believe a player should expect payment or anything for pulling on an International Shirt.

While people run off and play for others the rules will remain unchanged because the SFA if they are anything like the FAW will just say "we haven't heard of any problem".

I don't think you can call those who boo McGeady bigots. Probably more likely they don't know the situation with him. And he's just a little bit better than McLean at Motherwell. It's the same thing with Wales - many fans hate Michael Owen as he lived in Wales but playes for England but ignored Rob Jones (not him of Hibs) who was born in Wales yet played for England in the 90's because simply Owen was better.

Rinty · b

Unfortunately McGeady and other young players are not to know whether snubbing the second country will lead to them being picked for Scotland. Playing international football is a major thing for a footballer, if you snub one team because you want to play for wales instead, you might never get picked for wales and wish you had taken up the offer from Upper Volta.

I think those who boo McGeady are bigots as the see the international cap situation as an excuse to have a go at him. He is booed at every single ground in Scotland. That simply wouldnt happen if he was playing for South Africa

I didnt see people having a go at Nigel Quashie or Stuart McCall etc for turning their backs on England. I have no doubt that it is because it is Ireland that is the reason McGeady gets ping from the bigots just as some celtic supporters who are of irish immigrant communities get it in a way that other immigrant groups such as italians dont.

Cymro

No Rinty I completely disagree.

People see McGeady (from those I speak too - Celtic fans, Rangers fans, and a few that support Falkirk, Aberdeen, Hibs and Hearts oh and the father in law who suports St Johnstone) as a person who 'sold out' to play for a better footballing country in the RoI. At the time RoI was a lot higher than Scotland.

Now I accept from what you say that this wasn't the case and that the SFA where responsible but I don't think people actually know that.

People would give the same dogs abuse to him if he'd gone to other countries that where 'better' - England (would get more abuse there!)!

You use McColl as an example of a person who didn't get abuse. The difference is Rinty he chose Scotand. Football fans are fickle we love people who choose us. As I said Welsh fans give dogs abuse to Michael Owen, but loved Vinny Jones playing for us despite being an Englishman through and through. Dave Philips, Eric Young, Jeremy Goss, and several other players are examples of players who chose Wales despite being born in other countries.

And your very last point, I have no doubt that some hate him for choosing Ireland. That is unfotunalty the nature of some people in society more notably so in parts of Scotland. However, to most who 'hate' McGeady' it's because they see him as a traitor who sold out, not because of his Irishness.

And regarding your first point. If I opted to play for Wales I would not regret it if I ended up never playing international football. At the end of the day that is my country and I don't feel my footballing 'nationality' can be compromised purely because I think country A give me better chances.

parkhead_rfb

[quote="Cymro"]

Cymro

[quote="parkhead_rfb"]

Rinty · b

Cymro

Yes Rinty I appreciate that now you don't need to tell me yet again I read you the first time Rolling Eyes

, I take your word for it. I was merely explaining to Parkie what my comment meant.

Many Celtic fans I speak to think McGeady turned his back on Scotland not the other way round. It is on them I based my point - my Rangers supporting family have more definet opinions on him, Kenny Miller, Steven Pressley etc ! I accept they are not in full receipt of the facts but that would largely explain the abuse he gets!

Personally I wouldn't see wanting to play for my country as a gamble, but we all have different priorities in life.

Ryan Giggs played for England School Boys, they 'invested' in him. Choose Wales when it counted though.

Rinty

Cymro

Yes Rinty, but he still choose Wales when it counted. That point was aimed at your comment that McGeady chose RoI after they'd 'invested' in him. Regardless of the investment I would have chosen Scotland if I was Scottish as that would be my country. But, as I said, we all have different priorities in life.

I have already told you how I can see the Scottish FA's system is flawed and have asked what benefits do they see from it. I'm still waiting for some sort of answer to this from a person who seems to be clued up on it. But you are too busy explaining and rexplaining to me that McGeady chose RoI because of the actions of the SFA and didn't turn his back on them.

For the last time "I KNOW YOU TOLD ME ALREADY 3 TIMES". Wink

Diolch

Rinty

No Giggs was not part of the england set up in the way that mcgeady was in ireland and couldnt play for wales schoolboys as he was not a welsh schoolboy.

Giggs was born in wales and he has welsh parents he was NEVER AT ANY TIME eligible to play for england at any level and had no choice to make.

ALL schoolboys in England are eligible to play for England's schoolboys no matter their nationality, as long as they attend a school in England. In Scotland the schools FA are the official international team at that stage and team members have to be scottish as well as actually turn out for their school team, not just attend a scottish school.

McGeady played for Irelands youths all the way through and his manager, Brian Kerr, was promted to the full squad at the time Scotland finally came calling. He also had the choice of two nations unlike Giggs.

So they are not even remotely comparable situations.

Cymro

Yes Rinty you've been doing your research. Well done! Very Happy

My Giggs comment was merely playing Devils Advocate - I've argued with several English football fans who believe Giggs only played for Wales because England turned him down.

My point about McGeady still stands though he was in a situation where the SFA basically let him and Scottish football down. As I've said if I'd played for RoI schools while being a Scot I would still choose Scotland if I was Scottish. That is something I feel strongly about. Michael Owen too was English, just lived in Wales. I hate Rob Jones ex Liverpool player. Born in Wrexham played for England. Does my head in that people use their nationality as a commodity.

Now I'll ask you again. Do you know, why the SFA insist of sticking too such a seemingly daft rule. I assume they see some benefit from it?

Rinty

It is to do with politics, we have two bodies, a Schools FA and the SYFA who are in competition. For some reason we allow the schools FA to control international representation until age 16. McGeady didnt play for irish schoolboys he played for their youth teams which are uniform as FA international teams from an early age. They wont change it while the schools FA influence the thing for their own self interest.

agentmancuso

Rinty

But he doesnt support another country, he supports NO international teams as he has pointed out. The caricature built up around rfb is a lot worse and scarier than than the actual person.

rfb thinks that drunken scots fans in kilts and drunken irish fans in leprechaun suits are ALL fuds and he doesnt support Scotland or Ireland.

agentmancuso

agentmancuso · Re: b

parkhead_rfb

[quote="agentmancuso"]

Rinty

Once again another thread has turned into an attack on rfb, we might as well put up a sign saying "tims not welcome here" as that is the impression it gives.

agentmancuso

agentmancuso

Rinty

No, he slagged off scotland fans and he has to justify his political position on Ireland when he does this. This thread has nothing to do with irish politics yet you and others want rfb to constantly justify his politics yet again because he has views on what he calls "fuds".

This is a constant pattern and one that I think underlines that so many of us still have this huge problem that we cannot get over re celtic supporters, irish immigrants, irish republicans etc.

agentmancuso

Rinty

Again, he didnt mention violenece or "murder" or anything close to it in this thread. That rfb is singled out so often to justify himself is very telling. I dont agree with his views on Irish politics but that does not mean that every view he has is therefore invalid.

Cymro

Just to make it clear as I'm probably one of the main ones questioning Parkie constantly. I actually agree with a lot his says especially when it comes to the end target for Northern Ireland and certainly respect his right to have an opinion what ever that may be. My issue comes with his arguing methods. Also his apparent stance that Ireland, Catholics, Celtic are forever innocent victims and never committed badness. This may not be intended to be fair, but that is how it is perceived.

Rinty · n

Corby Boy

Tims are very welcome here, Tims are part of our society. Just as people like Aventinian are welcome here. All views should be heard.

Agentmancuso makes some very important points about the killing of civilians in the name of a cause, as much as I respect Parkhead RFB point of view politically.

The laugh of it is, most of us on this site agree with the whole concept of a united Ireland as its current split is as unnatural in our eyes as Scotland's continued participation in the union.

I am just glad that a new way has been found in the north of Ireland and I hope those that clove to their links there, catholic or protestant alike in Scotland will reflect this new way forward and develop a sense of understanding to the opposite community.

This is probably too idealistic by far, but sensible people in these communities should take note of it.

Corby Boy

Back to football supporting to attempt to get back on track in some way:

As an Anglo Scot myself, I can understand a ScotsIrish / Irish Scot supporting Ireland over Scotland so I wouldn't criticise that. After all its about what you feel you are inside.

Arguably perhaps harder for an Anglo-Scot to support England due to the obvious rivalry, than a ScotsIrish/IrishScot to support Scotland as well as Ireland as there isn't really the rivalry there as such.

However, when it comes to England, I don't actively, not support them or support the opposing side if they are playing some other country (other than Scotland). I actually wanted them to do well in the last world cup (although winning the damn thing would have been a nightmare - that was never on the cards, and probably won't be for another 40 odd years!).

So, I am saying that I acknowledge the country of my birth and residence even if I don't feel English inside.

Rinty

Thats because Corby IS in Scotland, no matter what it says on a map. Rfb doesnt support Ireland or Scotland.

But I have to disagree with you on England, I want them to losoe every time they play anyone at any sport and its not because I am anti-english, its because I hate their arrogant sportsmen, commentators and fans.

I support Scotland in football and usually Pakistan in cricket although Scotland has thrown that out reccently by actually emerging in cricket. I world cups where we dont have a presence I will support an underdog, possibly Ireland, Northern Ireland, jamaica or whoever.

Cymro · Re: n

Pip

parkhead_rfb · Re: n

parkhead_rfb

[quote="agentmancuso
I do have a problem with republicans. I refuse to accept that glorifying the indiscriminate killing of civilians qualifies as a political 'view'. As I've said before, it is a symptom of emotional imbalance. Murder is murder. Dressing it up in some ridiculous adolescent phantasy about 'oppression' changes nothing.[/quote]

As rinty has pointed out i have answered this point time without number, but i will do so again.

Irish republicans conducted a campaign of violence and yes civillians were killed in this campaign. The IRA have apologised for such events and while it most certainly will be no consolation to the victims familes the IRA were fighting a war with the British and its a fact that in every war there will be civillian casualties.

The IRA did not, however, indiscriminately attack civillians. What the IRA did was a campaign of economic bombings, warnings were phoned to ensure as best possible that civillian casualties were avoided.

had they not done this casualties would have been in their hundreds at least in attacks. This fact, and it is a fact that warnings were phoned, clearly shows that the IRA did not indiscriminately attack civillians. your claim is unfounded nonsense. Because you personally may not agree with the IRA and their objectives doesnt give you the right to spout points which are clearly wrong.

I would also assume from your stance that you are an outright pacifist. if not then i will assume that you hold the same views on every army? you will be hard pressed to find an army out there which has not caused the death of civillians during armed conflict.

or are you part of the group which legitimises the actions of the british army etc because in some fantasy they are legitimate? tell that to the victims of bloody sunday.

Cymro · Re: n

Corby Boy

Rinty, I have been arguing for years that Corby is an off Shoot of Scotland thanks for confirming it! Having stated all that I have previously said in my last post, I do find it genetically difficult to support England!

Pip - you need to understand the make up of the population of Corby and its Pscyhe to see where myself and Rinty are coming from in our posts.

Granted there are Anglo-Scots everywhere in England. But Corby is unique in many ways (both good and bad). It is a microcosm of Motherwell or Glasgow with a healthy smattering of Scots from other parts of Scotland.

Highland gatherings, Grampian pipeband, Haggis in batter and chips which is a staple diet as is Irn Bru (largest sales outside of Scotland) and white pudding but a few indicators!

Corby despite being located geographically where it is, is Scottish to the core. That's why there are always fun and games during England v Scotland matches.

Rinty · h

agentmancuso

parkhead_rfb

ah a legitimate army. I am sure the victims of bloody sundar are eternally gratefull that they were killed by a legitimate army, imagine their horror had it been an illigitimate one....horrendous.

who exactly has the right to decree an army legitimate? the leaders if the 1916 rising did not have any "legitimacy" are they now heroes because the 26 county state has decreed them as such?

To me the british army are an illegitimate army, their presence is not legitimate in ireland, iraq or anywhere else they take their unwanted forces, the fact they wear a fancy uniform means nothing to me.

One day nelson mandella was an illegitimate terrorist, the next he is a hero. It would seem that legitimacy is merely a badge granted by the powerfull to justify their actions.

agentmancuso

Cymro

Erm Parkie, just my tuppence worth but the British Army are a legitimate Army - i.e. it's an Official 'tool' (in both sense of the words in my opinion Very Happy

) of an Official International State.

They are a legitimate Army in Northern Ireland, Iraq, Afghanistan, Cyprus, Gibraltar and many many othr countries. Regard them as an Occupational Force if you wish (I'd agree with you in the case of Northern Ireland), that doesn't alter their existance as a legitimate official army belonging to an Internationaly recognised state.

If the Irish Free State and later the Irish Republic upon it's creation had made the IRA its official army and it kept a presence in Northern Ireland then you could then argue that the IRA was a legitimate army. But alas it wasn't The IRA was and is in essence a voluntary organisation set up to fight for Irish Independence. That may make the cause legitimate, that doesn't make the body legitimate though.

Regarding the UIrish Volunteers in 1916, they where herors. I agree with that. Why do they have to belong to a legitimate Army in order to be heroes? They gave their lives fighting the British state. Chances are the knew they'd fail but hoped it would become a beacon for Irish Republicanism. They succeeded in that respect.

parkhead_rfb

the point is cymro how the epitath changes because eventually they got a part of their wish.

how can the british army also be legitimate if you both admit that they are taking part in an illegal occupation? how can they go against "international law" and still be legitimate?

there was also an occassion where a british soldier was wounded and dying in the occupied six counties, at this time he told a fellow soldier he wished his possessions to go to his then partner. what is interesting about this is that in a time of war a oral will by a soldier is accepted as valid by the law, otherwise it would not be. that soldiers mother contested the oral will and lost. it seems that even british courts saw the IRA as fighting a war.

Babygael

there is no such thing as 'british' except to their slavish dawgs!

agentmancuso

Corby Boy

This thread has gone way off at a tangent. I can't see how the last few posts have got anything to do with 'Scots Abroad'!

Cymro

agentmancuso

I agree entirely Cymro, with the one proviso that it is a logical absurdity to speak of Northern Ireland as 'occupied' when the majority of the population are in favour of remaining part of the UK.

Rinty · n

agentmancuso

I find it difficult to make smalltalk with someone who believes that the indiscriminate murder of civilians is a reasonable political option. But I'll try my hardest. Rolling Eyes

Rinty

Then dont get involved in the thread, no-one is asking you to make small talk!

agentmancuso

I can't help it, I'm just naturally gregarious.

parkhead_rfb

you will find the british sectioned a part of a country off to ensure a majority felt that way, that is not democracy in any sense of the word.

the last point was that the court would not accept that as it wouldnt be a war situation, they clearly seen the six counties as such. republican prisoners were also given political status when caught by british forces (despite thatchers best efforts).

by the way who gave the un authority? i dont remember voting for them to have any power?

by the un's own standards the iraq war is illegal yet they do nothing, why should i have faith in the stance of an organisation which turns a blind eye to its own rules.

Cymro

George

Let me bring the thread back to it's origins and again post the questions that RFB declined to answer.

Aventinian

Aventinian

Cymro

scots abroad

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