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| SouthernJock |
Scots Fishermen sold out by Ross FinnieYet another incidence, where the Scottish Executive have been incompetent and allowed themselves to be sidlined by WestminsterIt has been revealed that Ben Bradshaw, Britain's fisheries minister, had agreed to hand almost £2 million of the North Sea's lucrative prawn catch to German skippers to save the livelihoods of trawlermen in the south of England. The deal - backed by Ross Finnie, Scotland's environment minister - will result in German prawn boats receiving 375 tonnes of the UK's share of the North Sea langoustine catch - primarily caught by Scottish trawlermen - in return for 150 tonnes of sole which will be used to aid 160 English boats operating in the southern North Sea. The swap deal was rushed through without any consultation with the Scottish prawn skippers who will be hit by the agreement.Richard Lochhead, the shadow Scottish fisheries minister, also attacked the deal. He said: "It is an outrage that London-based DEFRA has smashed and grabbed Scotland's fishing quota to swap it for quota for fishermen south of the Border. "This is just the latest illustration of how the UK sidelines Scotland and treats our fishing communities with contempt." Mr Finnie, however, defended the agreement. He said: "It was difficult not to have some sympathy with the economic difficulties facing under ten-metre vessels in the southern North Sea. In these exceptional circumstances, I reluctantly agreed to an international swap with Germany." A spokesman for DEFRA explained that a 25 per cent by catch limit to protect endangered skate and rays had left the 160 small boats in the south in danger of going out of business. The following release was posted on the Scottish Fishermans Federation website : SFF anger at quota swap deal for Scottish langoustines The Scottish Fishermen’s Federation (SFF) has reacted with fury over a quota swap deal that will result in the Scottish fleet losing some of its catch allocation for the economically vital langoustine fishery. Defra has agreed a deal with Germany to swap 1.5% (375 tonnes) of the UK North Sea langoustine share for 150 tonnes of sole to be given English boats in the Southern North Sea which have been hit by the impact of recently introduced by-catch limits for skate and ray. Langoustine is a key target stock for the Scottish fleet, fished by a well organised fleet which has made every effort, including heavy financial investment in quota, to abide by the rules and develop this sustainable fishery. The SFF is particularly angry that the deal was agreed without any warning or prior consultation by UK fisheries officials with the Scottish industry. Bertie Armstrong, SFF chief executive, said: “We are astonished that this was done without any reference to the industry that actually fishes the quota. International swaps are not in the least unusual, but the general condition is that everyone agrees to the arrangement. This is an unconsulted fait accompli. “Germany has not been involved to any degree in this fishery, with only a tiny quota, but this hands entry into a market that was painstakingly developed by the Scottish fleet. “The problem of disappearing catching opportunity for the southern North Sea 10m and under fleet has been addressed by taking from Peter to pay Paul - it’s a bit like a burglar coming into the house of a person who has worked hard and invested in their property only to be told ‘I’ve not got much, so I’m taking some of what you have’. “Catching opportunity is a finite resource and the problem has been caused by lack of regulation and control of the10m and under fleet. Having developed now into a crisis because of action to conserve endangered species, we find for the second time in recent history the responsible and rule-compliant langoustine fleet having their catching opportunity reduced to compensate. It looks all the more disappointing when compared with the Scottish whitefish fleet reaction to reduced catching opportunity – a 65% reduction by decommissioning.” As many of you may know, this affects directly the Fishermen and families featured recently on the BBC's documentary series 'Trawlermen' What price the union? As far as Im concerned this is a cost thats unacceptable! We need a Scottish Government that will stand up for Scotland and one that can negotiate directly with the EU Its time for change |
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| Aventinian |
Re: Scots Fishermen sold out by Ross Finnie
I don't think they have a choice. Negotiations with the EU are the sole preserve of the UK Government.
Anti-English clap-trap. Most of the distant fleet is based in England, but by no means all of it. Scotland is ridiculously privileged when it comes to fishing. 60% of the UK's fishing catch comes into Scotland. If there are people in England who want to fish, then we shouldn't be supporting this position of advantage.
As if anyone would be in any doubt what their position was...
And he wonders why we call his party xenophobic. "Smashed and grabbed Scotland's fishing quota"? 1.5% of their catch of one type of fish? Yes, our economy will be collapsing!
So it's alright to put the English fleet (making up a small proportion of the British fleet generally) out of business rather than making a small dent in the Scottish position according to the SNP? This sort of crap should be treated with absolute contempt.
Yet if England was to get an equal fishing quota with Scotland, that'd put half the Scottish fleet out of business instantly. What price the Union indeed! 
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| George |
Re: Scots Fishermen sold out by Ross Finnie
Thank you for your considered response Aventinian, furthering the independence debate with your well thought through defense of the Union. It is difficult to put a case for independence in the face of such well made arguments......anti English xenophobes eh? the subtlety belies a cunning debating skill. And what about the point that our fishermen have been let down once again? Another excellent retort "negotiations are the sole preserve of the government".......honestly Aventinian, how can anyone argue with that? And just for safe measure there's the throwaway meaningless remark implying that the Scottish fleet could be put out of business. Anyone left with any thought of independence will have surely given up. And to think that I recently considered you arrogantly dellusional and pathological, not fit to lace my boots..................I've reconsidered, you can lace them. |
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| Aventinian |
Re: Scots Fishermen sold out by Ross Finnie
That you can't sideline those who aren't involved.
Very clever, George. Your rhetoric is on top form.
Haha! Look how he cleverly rearranges sentences to comic effect! How witty!
You see, aren't we being wonderfully smart and mature?! You ludicrous bloody child.
It was a response to the quoted section suggesting that Scottish Executive officials had a role to play in negotiations when they don't.
Look George, I've indulged my immaturity here, but I have no intention of continuing this. You do not debate, you make personal attacks, and its the preserve of the idiot. You are the most disagreeable little keyboard dictator I've ever had the misfortunate to talk to on the internet. I really wonder about the miserable sort of life you must lead to derive pleasure from being simply unpleasant to people. I also seem to recall you making a comment that you were actually of fairly advanced years, it really concerns me that you've not grown out of that behaviour - or alternatively had a breakdown. I hope you realise that it's people like you that make this world that little bit more miserable for everybody else. But then again, you probably enjoy that. If only evolution had weeded you out. |
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| Mctosh45 |
Oh dear! George getting under your skin is he Ave?
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| George |
Re: Scots Fishermen sold out by Ross Finnie
This reads very much like a personal attack...much like a number of posts I've witnessed from yourself.....oh yes there have been many instances of name calling usually when faced with the contempt that you reserve for others. As far as debating with you is concerned it is almost impossible...claims, insults and erroneous accusations emanate from your posts almost daily (if your 20 minutes allows!!).
Mind the blood pressure dear boy!! |
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| Aventinian |
I'll make no bones about it, he does piss me off somewhat. Not even for his politics, but rather for his character.
Yes George, it was a personal attack, a guilty pleasure in response to your own. But as I've said, I don't intend to make a persona out of it and will certainly not continue with it, nor would I ever respond to a legitimate political point with such rhetoric - even in your post, I bothered to address the matters that weren't simply ad hominem. Of course it'd be standard practice for the troll to transfer his imperfections onto his victim, but I only hope that most realise that I do not regularly indulge in gutter behaviour in response to genuine debate. My continued presence here, despite all the bullshit I have to endure, rather pays testament to that. |
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| SouthernJock |
Re: Scots Fishermen sold out by Ross Finnie
Actually I was quoting verbatum from the Scotsman |
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| Aventinian |
Doesn't bother me in the least. The newspapers in Scotland are far from above-reproach. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| SouthernJock |
Re: Scots Fishermen sold out by Ross Finnie
Not strictly true, as a perceived region in the EU's eyes, Scotland can and does have the right to negotiate directly assited by the main uk government.Many 'regions' do this such as Bavaria, Catalonia etc The other option is negotiations by the main government, but with the region responsible or affected taking the lead. But for reasons , which can only be assumed as being underhand, Westminster have it in there head that they and only they can talke direct to the EU, which is unfortunate as the UK is the only country that takes this stance. Also when it comes to region negotiating on matters such as transport, its not taken seriously by Westminster, which is why the representative on the EU Council of the regions, the UK has someone from a south east england town council (thats a fact, I was amazed when I saw this myself) |
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| billalba |
Its obvious from aventinian writes that anything that is done to the harm of anything Scottish is ok...me thinks he may be one of the parcel of rogue types.. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Aventinian |
Re: Scots Fishermen sold out by Ross Finnie
Even so, it's a reserved matter. It's down to the UK Government to decide how it is represented within Union institutions. Of course, if Scotland wouldn't really be entitled to representation in this case since it doesn't concern anything specifically Scottish. These quotas are for the whole UK fleet, it just so happens that due to years of privilege and state-support, the vast majority of this variety of fishing is carried out from Scottish ports.
It is fine if it's for the right reasons. |
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| Economist |
Re: Scots Fishermen sold out by Ross Finnie
Not really, it is generally due to the proximity of Scottish ports to the marine resource, and thus the fish stocks. After all it makes much more economic sense to have such ports closer to the richer fishing grounds of the north east of the North Sea and the northeastern Atlantic, where fish stocks are (generally) richer and maritime shipping is not so much of a consideration. It isn't surprising there has been an agglomeration of fish ports in the north of Scotland - Peterhead, Fraserburgh, Lerwick, Stornoway etc |
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| SLG |
Re: Scots Fishermen sold out by Ross Finnie
And this is where the Union fails. What you say is strictly true. But there is no need to enforce a situation just because it's true. If the Union was working in Scotland's favour it would allow more leeway in areas like this where Scotland's interests would be allowed to dominate. Of course if you are a one-Britain Unionist, this argument won't mean much But I think the most people see this as a weakness that needs reform. |
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| wisnaeme |
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Errrm "Aventinian" have you read this? A little self-assertion As chairman of the Flemish political party, SPIRIT, and federal MP for Ostend. I was surprised to hear that there have been concerns raised in Scotland over the ability of Scottish ministers to lead in meetings of the Fisheries Council in the European Union. The Belgian constitutional reform of 2001 made the Flemish government responsible for the representation of Belgium in the EU Fisheries Council. In no way did this undermine the position of Belgium in that council, instead, it strengthened Flanders position in the EU by putting it at the heart of the decision making process. This has not just been consigned to fisheries. Ministers from all of the component parts of Belgium can take part in other EU councils. Indeed, during the Belgian presidency of the EU, a large number of European Council meetings, such as those on education, regional policy and culture and media, among others, were in fact, chaired by ministers from the Flemish, Walloon and Brussels governments. This did not harm the Belgian presidency at all: in fact, it strengthened our presidency of the Council of Ministers by ensuring that all parts of Belgium played an inclusive role in the EU. GEERT LAMBERT Woeringenstraat Brussels http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/l...cfm?id=447002007&format=print and "Aventinian" I suspect that you have little in the way of knowledge of the fishing industry from the "sharp end". So next time ye open yer oriffice to speak and yer @rse squeaks ordour,let it be of no surprise tae yerself. Them fisherfolk you speak so contemptibly about as subsidy junkies put life and limb in mortal danger to support themselves and their dependents and put meat on their family's table and supply your table and mine. Hard working independent folk so they are. Aye, there were safter ways of making a living than yon. Enjoy yer frozen,prepacked reconstituted from christ knows what, from anywhere but Scotland," flavours of the sea", fish fingers, won't you. Yer an @rsehole and a disgrace so ye are. Signed Wisnaeme.............Ex fisherman. . |
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| Aventinian |
Re: Scots Fishermen sold out by Ross Finnie
If Scottish Executive sorts wish to make representations, they can do that to the UK Government - there are plenty of avenues between the two bodies. It should then be for the UK Government to decide what the UK's position should be. |
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| Aventinian |
You'll note however that Flanders is the only part of Belgium with a coast. If this was the case in the UK, then this trade-off that we're discussing would never have been made.
The European Council is not an official body of the Union, it's a summit. And notably the Prime Minister of Belgium comes from a Flemish party - it's therefore nothing more than a method of getting his cronies into position.
If you can point out when I'm wrong then I'm happy to listen.
So did the bloody coalminers. |
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| SLG |
Re: Scots Fishermen sold out by Ross Finnie
Those avenues may be there, but there have been a number of cases where Westminster have had issues with an Executive looking to get involved in any reserved areas. And this is with the same party in Holyrood and Westminster. If the Westminster route is blocked, we have to look to other means. Hence the independence movement. The SNP were accused of planning 'war' with Westminster if they get in. But 'war' will only come when Westminster finds itself too unwilling and too unflexible to match the wished of the Scottish people should they elected an SNP led Executive. |
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| Aventinian |
Re: Scots Fishermen sold out by Ross Finnie
I'm sure they don't mind a comment on things which directly touch on Scotland, particularly from the Scottish Office - who, after all, have a cabinet representative. End of the day, however, it is their job to decide what to do with this advice. |
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| SLG |
Re: Scots Fishermen sold out by Ross Finnie
I get the impression that they do mind. You are right when you say that it is their job. That's not the point. The point is that the people of Scotland clearly want the Scottish Parliament to have more of a say in matters. I'm not just talking about the pro-independence group, there is another 20 odd % of the population who want a stronger Scottish Parliament. The reluctance of Westminster to meet their expectations is driving Scotland towards independence. Even your own Tory party is waking up to this and is looking to strengthen Holyrood. Standing still is not an option. |
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| Holebender |
Someone with a penchant for research might want to take a look at the length of Scotland's coastline as a proportion of that of the UK before writing guff about Scottish fishermen having some sort of unfair advantage. Someone with a penchant for reasearch could also look at the area of fishable waters off the coast of Scotland as a proportion of that of the UK. I think you'll find that Scotland has close to half of the UK total of coastline, but a lot more than half of the fishable waters. That's because the southern parts of the UK are quite close to other places like France and Ireland whereas you have to go a long way out to sea from Scotland before you find another country.
Everyone apart from Aventinian can see this story as another example of the union working against Scotland's interests. In Aventinian's world everything is just tickety-boo. |
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| azzuri |
It actually has much more than half. I believe we have about 2/3 of the UK coastline, circa 900 miles. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Aventinian |
I am being entirely pedantic here, but the length of the British coastline is, in effect, infinite.
It increases dramatically depending on the length of measurement used. So therefore any figures here are going to be merely an estimation - and I'm sure estimations could be made which show the English coastline as longer. |
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| fiferjohn |
i think aventine you still believe in the idea of the British empire a we are a colony that is just suppose to do what were told.sorry we are a nation and a country and as a joint signatory of the act of union we we have the right if the Scottish people want it to end the treaty and England can not stop it . in the Eu's eye it will be a breach in our right for self determination if denied. if westminster wants the union to survive then they have to listen to the people of Scotland more and start playing the game on a level playing field and not the one sided game they have been playing for the last 300 years. i get the feeling you live in the nice rich sudsisded area of south England. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Aventinian |
I am opposed to nationalism, but I am equally opposed to the idea of political power blocs competing. I'd only have been a British imperialist in spirit had Britain controlled the world. Then, effectively, I'd have been an internationalist. I am firmly against the idea of colonies - evidenced by my support for the full incorporation of the British Overseas Territories into the UK. We are all imperialists in a sense, insofar as the only real alternative other than dominion over other individuals is Anarchy.
Scotland has never been a British colony. It is part of the United Kingdom. One might make the argument that it was an English colony at times, however. As for 'doing what we are told' - being a Libertarian, I hardly think that accusation can be levelled at me.
Culture, ethnicity and whatever else creates a nation should be as irrelevant to politics as race, religion and any of those other arbitrary dividers we put up between individuals. As for being a country, I entirely disagree unless we are to completely debase the meaning of that word - which, as I have learned and seen in academic usage, applies to sovereign states and non-incorporated territories. Scotland is neither.
England doesn't exist politically, so if you're going to enter a debate on this matter I suggest using somewhat more precise terminology. We are a joint signatory to the Act of Union - yes, that is true. The Act of Union also makes it clear that we are united forever, and to form one single unitary state. As such, we're in the same position as any other unitary state and the situation before the Act becomes irrelevant. Scottish people having any special right to secession because of the Act of Union is as unthinkable as the Duke of Atholl declaring himself and his region no longer bound by fealty to the Crown, or Strathclyde taking action against Scotland in international courts to attempt to end its occupation.
The EU has no jurisdiction over the exercise of any sort of self-determination. The ECJ would rule any such case irrelevant, not to mention that no-one would have the standing to bring such a case. Self determination, equally, is not any sort of absolute right - any more than a right to sovereignty and territorial integrity, which falls on the side of the UK, is. If you have a look at any commentary on the UN Charter, you'll realise this is also the case therein - it was certainly never intended to divide established states, but rather as a statement against colonialism. Self determination has never been anything more than the most woolly minded of concepts, "more honoured in the breach than the observance" - and too I agree with the original meaning of that sentence, that it is more honourable to breach than observe. As a liberal and a democrat of sorts (although, of course, not a Liberal Democrat!) I cannot agree with collective rights in any sense, and obviously absolute self-determination cannot be given to all. Although as a Libertarian, I believe eventually it'd be irrelevant. Even independent countries are governed by global law - ius cogens - from which they cannot depart. I'd prefer to see a global law, which recognises the commonality of human beings, recognise this and apply a universal set of minimal laws which control people - and then to leave them to their own devices and with their right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
I live in Scotland and have done for almost my entire life, unlike a lot of Nationalists. I certainly think however Scotland gets a lot of advantages denied to England - particularly the most needy parts of England in the North. |
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| ditchblair |
I thought that Scotland had bugger all of a coastline. The BBC weather map proves that.
Auntie beeb can't be wrong. |
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| Babygael |
weel whit dae ye expect from scotsmen who lay doon and let the engerlish screw them over!! How fekin slavish What th' fek is gaun oan in ma hameland????  :
Ah can't be commin hame tae a country ruled by the sasannach but worse,sold oot by STUPID arseholes!! 
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| agentmancuso |
I can't help suspecting that the more coherent nationalists in this forum must shiver with horror every time you make a post. |
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