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| azzuri |
Scots identity linked to accentsee - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4994174.stmScots identity linked to accent Scottish identity has more to do with a person's accent and place of birth than their race, according to new research. A survey of more than 1,500 people found most believed that having the right accent made you Scottish - not the colour of your skin. Nine out of 10 people surveyed said a non-white person who spoke with a local accent could claim to be Scottish. But fewer than half said they would view someone born in England as a Scot, even if they had a Scottish accent. The results of the study will be the subject of a seminar at Edinburgh University on Friday. It also found 11% of those asked would regard a non-white person as Scottish if they were both born south of the border and spoke with an English accent. That figure rose to 15% for a white person. Professor David McCrone, one of the authors of the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey, said it showed that identity was not a "fixed badge". "Our various studies show that identity is a set of flexible claims made in context and varying according to circumstances," he said. The survey of over-18s was carried out by the Scottish Centre for Social Research as part of a series of studies into national identity at the Institute of Governance at Edinburgh University. |
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| RadgeJougal |
Maybe, but not for long.
Most youngsters in the Central Belt, and oldsters, call "loch" a "lock" now, and speak increasingly like their Estuary English heroes. |
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| SLG |
I've always though this as well, but I'm sure I read some reseach that said that it was the case that the Scots accent was being lost, but in recent years that trend has reversed. I think it might have been focussed on the NE rather than the CB though. | ||||
| Aventinian |
If a Scots identity is all about speaking a certain way and your ethnicity then it can bugger off. There are plenty of people who are born in Scotland, have lived here all their lives, have Scottish parents and don't speak with what is considered to be a Scottish accent.
I am one of them. I have been told I sound 'English' by some people (which is crap as any Englishman can clearly identify me as not being local) and indeed I even had some anti-English remark made to me once by a complete arsehole in a horrible, barely-understandable, but certainly native, drawl. I am not English and I don't feel that I should have to speak with a certain accent to 'fit in' to my own nation. |
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| SLG |
I don't think you should either Aventinian. I don't think that was the point though. You don't hear anyone with a Scots accent who isn't Scots in some way. I think the point was that the accent is a more apparent identifier of a Scot than skin colour. Or that someone born elsewhere had lived here long enough to pick up the accent, then they are more accepted. I'm quite comfortable with that. Of course the accent is just one aspect. The 'research' if you can call it that, seems only to have looked at that one aspect though.
Question, you have two similar looking folk in front of you, they introduce themselves, one in a recognisable Scots accent and one in a nondescript standard English accent. You are told one is a Scot, the other isn't. Who do you think is the Scot. At the end of the day, accent and language is a big factor in any culture and national identity. Scotland is no different. |
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| RadgeJougal |
Doesn't surprise me somehow. It wouldn't surprise me fi you went to one of those Eton/Harrow clones that teach you how to be a good Britisher. It always behoved the natives to ape their masters in every colony. The Raj and their African equivalents sent their children to England's public schools, and the Highland chiefs did the same. Now we have Foetus College and Gordonstoun to do the job, so that they don't have to travel so far. |
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| Aventinian |
And how is that different from any other sort of discrimination? I don't ape anyone, I speak the way I speak for many reasons - none of them conscious decision. Neither I, nor anybody else, has ever attempted to alter my accent in any way. I have never attended any educational institution in England, nor did I go to Fettes or Gordonstoun. I am dignifying this with somewhat more of a response than it merits, however I believe you should perhaps analyse your prejudices to some degree. If you base your idea of identity on what accent someone speaks with then I think you're nothing short of narrow minded and I'd certainly leave before I had my country run by people of your ilk. |
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| SLG |
So you don't agree with me when I said "At the end of the day, accent and language is a big factor in any culture and national identity. Scotland is no different."? |
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| Babygael |
Wal why disnae it surprise me!!
Dinnae ye no onderstan "arsehole??" try this un fer size
still cannae onderstan? Wal it wuid be hard if yer went tae Feotus college,ah'll give ye that! Ah ainly hope certain MSP's onderstan that tae!! 
Sleep weel loon  
BG   
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| Aventinian |
You'll find that a lot of old Scots and the varient dialects of it have quite a lot in common with old English, which I had quite a lot of experience of in school. However I make no apologies for not understanding people who speak in a way that is virtually designed to make them incomprehensible.
I usually restrain myself from unfocused outrage. This was perhaps a rare exception and I have not really considered my own objections. I suppose what I am saying is that I am amazed that Nationalists attach so much to such insignificant things. |
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| RadgeJougal |
It always was in the way of the British Empire to teach folk how to speak, and what to think, whether they're Eliza Doolittle, or Rajput Patel, or even Jock Tamson. I'm told by folk with anglified accents in Scotland (usually the result of a certain type of education - or their parents'), that they don't have "accents". Funny! "nor did I go to Fettes or Gordonstoun." Was it Loretto, Glenalmond or Strathallan then? |
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| SLG |
It's not all nationalists, it is also some Unionists and some with no opinion on the Union whatsoever. Nor do I agree that it is insignificant. It may mean nothing to you, but the language an individual uses and is able to use can impact on their life to a huge degree. |
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| Aventinian |
I acquired my accent in the same way I imagine you acquired yours.
I, on the other hand, don't discriminate against people based on their accent and some sort of class prejudice. The only accents I cannot stand are ones which are high pitched and unpleasant to listen to, or those that are simply incomprehensible and require translation whenever the speaker decides to travel further than a one and a half mile radius from his home. As for trying to find out where I was schooled Detective Inspector Radge, I think you'll find that your detection skills are about as blunt as they were in the Scottish Football Shirts thread. |
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| SLG |
I'd be surprised if you didn't. Everyone makes judgments about those they meet accent being one of the most obvious characteristics of a person. Even if you don't know it I'd imagine that it does impact on your judgment. | ||||
| carol |
Goodness knows what they think of me, my accent is 57 varieties 
Carol |
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| Wolf of Badenoch |
 Aye me tae Carol,ma ain wife cannae understaun me hauf the time,although i suspect she micht be using that as an excuse so she doesnae need tae listen tae me. 
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| Babygael |
Hey Ave, I really dinnae mean tae git oan yer case all the time,ach the things ye say BEG a response!! Here we go!
Sorry lad, ach ah dinnae believe ae wird o' it! Ye ken whit worries me the most? That wan day we'll wake up an' find that everything that defines us as "Scots" will be wiped oot forever.And when its gone,its gone. I fer wan hope that if or when that day arrives,I'll be lang deid.Mean while ah hope tae do ma part, small an insignificant as it is. All scots languages /dialects shuid be protected, for it defines us as to who we are.While it is true that some scots are influenced by living in other countries.No scot in my oppinion shuid purposely go oot o his way tae change their accent,because ae some misguided idea that it is an uncouth and uncivilized tongue.What a load ae crape!! Ahm sure that you realise that Scotland has a HUGE fan club oot an beyond its boundries? Can yew imagine whit a shocker tae find english speaking scots everywhere when they come over on holliday?? What a disgrace!! So many ae them wuid gie' their right arm an leg tae be able tae speak "real" scots. Its wan ae the things that gives scotland such fan club oot there.They dinnae want tae see scots compleatly absorbed by the sasannach loons tae a point where there's no distinct defination between the two! Wal ah ken wan thing fer sure,it wuid have tae be over ma deid body. Ahm 100% behind the preseveration ae all things Scottish,whit ever it may be. BG  
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| Aventinian |
True enough. But then the same could be said of race, gender and most other characteristics. However I don't class myself a a racist or a sexist because my only conscious thought on the matter is to attempt not to discriminate. What I do subconsciously is hardly something I can be blamed for.
Well quite. I have never changed my accent, nor do I intend to change it on the whim of anybody else. However I find the fact that someone considers me foreign or whatever because of it quite revolting really. |
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| Babygael |
Hai Ave,
Wal thats the first thing ye've said that leaves BG wae wan BIG smile!! And ah also ajolopiise fer calling yer foreign fer yer speech! while yew may not have guan tae feotus college, ah wis sent tae its equivelent elsewhere.however ah found that while you can tak the scot oot ae scotland............................!! Ah dont blame ye fer yer plummy accent,actually ah find it DEAD sexy! Otherwise ah dinnae think ah wuid bother wae takin ye oan!! BG 
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| SLG |
Who said anything about discrimination? The survey asked about people who were not born here but speak with a Scots accent. There is no question about people born here who don't have a strong accent. It's common sense to me to make the assumption that if someone speaks in a Scots accent then they are Scots. The reverse does not need to apply. There are certain logical judgments that can be made about race, gender etc. To do so does not make you a racist or sexist. As far as I can see nobody said that they considered you foreign because of your accent? |
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| RadgeJougal |
The only overwhelming thing I detect from you comes fae a coo's bahookie. |
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| Glasgow_Ceilidh_Band |
the "lock" thing really annoys me. It's when people called McCulloch pronounce it with a K at the end (or similar) that I want to cry. the "chhh" sound is a real identifier of the Scottish tongue, and it's sad that it is departing.
I call dances in my ceilidh band, and make sure that people say "yooch" at the appropriate points. Another point for the underdogs 
On radio one today I heard that the accent people trust most when talking to call centres is Scottish. I'm assuming it's the posher end of the scale (eg Sean Connery) rather than the humble street weegie. "Awwwwriiiight moooon!" Oh, oh oh! And when people read Burns' poetry wrong. "His knife see rustic labour DIKT and cut ye up wi' ready SLIGHT" aaargh. Noooo. Sorry, my first post should have been more cheerful for a' that. |
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| azzuri |
a place to get things off your chest.........welcome GCB
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| Babygael |
Failte GCB! C'mon in an get real wae the scots accent!!
BG  
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| Glasgow_Ceilidh_Band |
Thanks for the kind welcome! | ||||
| Glasgow_Ceilidh_Band |
By the way, are there any 'definitive' guides to pronounciation of Burns' poetry that anyone can recommend? Might be a tall order, but there must be some Scots language student out there with a thesis on this... | ||||
| azzuri |
I'd suggest the Firstfoot site as a good start: http://www.firstfoot.com/
Although it's not a 'definitive' guide to pronunciations per se, there is a very active Scots forum. I'd suggest you try in there - I'm sure the folk there will be able to help you further. |
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| Aventinian |
I always thought slightly dodgy pronunciations were half the fun of reading Burns in an informal setting. 
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| wisnaeme |
Aye,a guid idea an weel yer about it "Aventinian" gonnae introduce yersel tae ra guid folk on ra forum, gonnae dae that. Jist tell them a wee bit aboot yerself an yer views on ra world an ra anglosphere. Ah'm sure yon wull gan doon weel and ye'lll hae a verra warm welcome, indeed.
. |
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| Babygael |
OCH wisnaeme! Ye dinnae hev tae brak ma ribs did ye noo? Lol.
pair Ave! wae that plummy accent, hei'd go doon fine wae yon fowk Tha e gla` blath failte the noo!! BG
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