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| Blackleaf |
Scots uni drop-outs 'highest in UK'Scots uni drop-outs 'highest in UK'Jul 20 2006 University students in Scotland have the highest drop-out rate in the UK, new figures show. Official statistics reveal that, during 2004-05, 11.6% of students north of the border - or 3,645 people - left after their first year of study, compared with a UK average of 9.5%. According to the Higher Education Statistics Agency (Hesa), Scotland had the highest proportion in the UK, ahead of Northern Ireland at 11.4%, Wales at 10.7% and England at only 9.1%, icdunbartonshire.icnetwork.co.uk |
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| Avatar |
I wonder if thats anything to do with Scottish Honour degrees being a four year course as opposed to the rest of the UK having three year courses.
Out of the eight people I shared a flat with in first year of uni only two graduated after all four years, three of us graduated after third year and three "dropped out" in the second year due to finacial reasons. Personally I believe the drop out rate is due to financial reasons - I dont know the statistics but it seems to me that the cost of living in Scotland is higher than the average wage packet allows. My last job over there paid around £165 a week - and I couldnt afford to run a flat on my own - and considering most students have to take up part-time jobs I doubt that would go far. On saying that though I understand living costs in England are Higher and they have to pay tuition fees - so I dont how people over there afford student life - presumably their parents have more money and subsidise them. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
i just got a later wanting 2000 odd quid off me for a graduate endownment, great stuff 
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| Aventinian |
I don't think it is reasonable to presume that the average person can get through university without amassing some debts. The average student debt in England is something like £16,000 - here you can knock a few thousand off of that. To presume that every student in England has well-off parents is just daft. Yes, university cannot usually be adequately completed without becoming in debt. Fair enough, if you ask me - it's an investment for your future. |
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| azzuri |
snap - no tuition fees my arse! the graduate endowment is tuition fees via the back door - sneaky bastards! |
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| Avatar |
"I don't think it is reasonable to presume that the average person can get through university without amassing some debts. The average student debt in England is something like £16,000 - here you can knock a few thousand off of that. To presume that every student in England has well-off parents is just daft"
I didnt mean to imply that all students in England have well off parents, but on average I imagine the wages people in England receive are higher than those in Scotland. £16,000 is about the same amount of money I owe for my student loan plus another £1000 in my overdraft still to pay off so presumably the average student debts in England and Scotland are very close. Obviously students are going to come away with debt - however the fact remains even with a student loan and part time job some students still cant afford to get by and have to leave uni. |
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| garye |
I read an article about this yesterday and I think the way some of the figures are counted inflates the figures. Students graduating with an ordinary degree at places like Paisley and Napier-after they had completed 2-year HND level courses at other institutions- were counted as having "dropped out" because they only attended Uni for one year when in actuality they graduated.
It should also be pointed out that the three institutions with the Highest drop out rates were Paisley Uni, Napier Uni and Bell College in Hamilton, all of whom have a far higher proportion of students from disadvantaged areas than the likes of Edinburgh and St Andrews, so two additional likely explanations are 1) Unfamiliarity of HE culture, possibly through being first of the family to go and 2) financial problems if there is a lack of monetary assistance from home. I think as far as the bigger picture is concerned the levels of debt that students are expected to accrue is disgusting. How do we expect that young people can build up a millstone huge debts and then find themselves excluded from the property ladder due to rising house prises? |
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| Aventinian |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4466692.stm
Anyway, I'd hardly consider £16,000 or whatever as a huge debt if it is the only one, outside of a mortgage, that a person ran up in their life. Like I say, it's an investment - which usually pays off substantial dividends. I imagine our colonial cousins in the Americas would be leaping for joy at the prospect of British-level tuition costs. The housing ladder is another matter altogether - and one that is not only a problem in relation to student debts. Perhaps, however, what should be encouraged is the saving of American-style 'college funds' for children, saved by their parents over the years. I'm sure that would go some way to lessening the debt. |
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| SF102 |
Aventinian,
Whilst i agree to some extent about the "college funds" i find myself thinking about what do parents do who are not in a position to "save" money for the kids fund . . . .hell some people can't even save for a poxy pension what chance they got of being able to MORE money aside. I am over 40 and haven't even begun to even think about a pension yet namely because i've never really been in a position to afford one. My daughter is 18 next week she's intending on going to uni. Christ knows how she's gonna be able to afford it. The money i earn means she'll not get any help but i can't help her either. So what does one do (apart from rob a bank or pray for a decent lottery win ) What happens if due to their parents they're unable to get "credit" to fund an overdraft or even a student loan. What happens then. I know there is bursarys but was under the impression that was just for emergancies and the like. |
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| Aventinian |
Well student loans are offered to everyone, regardless of credit history etc - and I think that's a good thing. Bursaries (at least in Scotland) are given based on means testing on a tapered scale - and are, I tihnk, granted alongside the student loan when it's applied for. When you mentioned about emergencies, I think you're confusing them with what used to be called in my day 'hardship grants' which are entirely different and I believe are run by the universities themselves to help their students should they get into financial difficulty.
I think the 'college fund' thing is a problem at the moment - since tuition fees were sprung on the population without warning, a good generation or two will have had children without any way of knowing that such an eventuality would occur. I believe in student loans. They way they work out isn't crippling regardless of future income (I don't know what the threshold is to start paying them off, but no one will go hungry) and I believe everyone should have access to university. I just don't think it's fair to expect everyone to pay for it, when only a minority (ie, those who decide to go to uni) are seeing the financial benefit. |
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| SF102 |
Can't disagree with a lot of that . . . in fact hardly if any . . .. I think the threshold is around the 15k mark. Now what i'd like to know is at what point do the banks/Govt. "forget" about the student loan I just got visions of someone working p/t in McD's Having not been nor had a student loan i could be talking out me arse with regards to the fuigre i quoted but i'm damn sure i read somewhere that was the case. |
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| Wolf of Badenoch |
Aye im sure its aroond that mark,i mind when i finished ma training it wis sitting at 10,000,that wis roon aboot 2002 but i dae mind it jumping up a fair bit. I always mind hearing a few ae ma fellae students at the time saying they widnae take a job that wis gonnae put them ower the threshold for paying the loans back.  High expectations for thaursels eh. 
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| garye |
£16,000 might not sound much to you but its a fair whack for most people. You also above in one breadth say "outside of a mortgage" and then go on to say the housing ladder is a different issue altogether. Bollocks. Policies should be looked at in a holistic sense, this is people we're talking about folk can't just pick and choose which socio-political issue affects them. You also in one post talk about saving for college funds and then in another point out (rightly) that the ways fees etc were sprung upon people that it's unrealistic for a couple of generations. As far as it being "an investment" for a few folk who do Law, Accountancy and Medicine etc maybe and to be fair current stats still show average gradute earnings above non graduate earnings-but- there's also plenty non graduates earning far more than many graduates-I know some of them!! Which brings us to the repayment threshhold. The Cubie Commission (on which the Graduate Endowment was based) suggested Graduates should start repaying fees when they were benefiting from a University EDucation-but placed that monetary figure at £25,000(give or take a couple of K). Far more realistic than the current £15k level-a couple of years in a job requiring a couple of Standard Grades and you would be at that. |
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| SLG |
If someone has benefitied from their education to the extent where they are earning much more than average, are they not paying a higher tax rate and contributing more in tax, paying off there debt to the country that way? Why should someone who is earning the same amount of money as someone who didn't go to university pay a higher tax rate - because that's what the Graduate Endowment is. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Babygael |
Prehaps Blackleaf was initially implying that Scots are bigger losers than their sasannach counterparts? There is a difference between those who can but can't due to financial restraints ,from those who simply can't/'won't. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Avatar |
"it's an investment - which usually pays off substantial dividends." -
I have to disagree, a degree is worth nothing these days - unless your degree was career specific, to get a decent job you now have to do post-graduate courses, and doing a post grad is just going to get you into even more debt. In My opinion the degree system is flawed, I think work placements should be included to some extent in all courses, theres no point in having a piece of paper saying "I studied xyz subject for four years successfully" if you dont have any work experience to back it up - the majority of employers want experience - you cant get experience because you cant get the job in the first place, so eventually you end up with a generation of graduates working in McD's or Call centres. I know people that left school at 16 and make more money than me. The higher education system needs to be revised - I dread to think of those random people that have degrees in Spiderman or Star Trek. Perhaps only certain courses should recieve government loans - or atleast students should be offered some kind of job or work experience relevant to what they are studying. I do agree to an extent about the general population having to fund higher education for a few people especially in the cases of so called "mickey mouse" courses. |
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| azzuri |
It really depends what you want out of it Avatar - if I hadn't have went to uni this forum wouldn't exist because I wouldn;t have had the extended interest in politics that I do today.
I see my time at uni as an investment in myself primarily - my time I took studying allows me to think in a way that I couldn't have previously. Although it certainly doesn't bring with it any sort of financial reward or highly paid job at the end, I think that I am a better person for it and can contribute far more to society over the course of my life. |
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| Avatar |
"It really depends what you want out of it Avatar - if I hadn't have went to uni this forum wouldn't exist because I wouldn;t have had the extended interest in politics that I do today.
I see my time at uni as an investment in myself primarily - my time I took studying allows me to think in a way that I couldn't have previously. Although it certainly doesn't bring with it any sort of financial reward or highly paid job at the end, I think that I am a better person for it and can contribute far more to society over the course of my life." I do agree with you there - university is a great opportunity for personal growth and I do feel that I wouldnt be the same person as I am today without that experience - but I would think that the majority of people go to university because they have it drummed into them that it will provide them with better career opportunities - which seems to me to be misleading. I graduated in 2004 and Ive only just got a job which could be considered related to my course - and tbh I could have left school at 16 and got the same job without all the stress of debt. However I wouldnt trade my time at Uni for anything its definately a worthwhile experience, im probably just bitter about not having a job that pays over £20,000 
I would actually quite like to see high schools reformed into being more like universities, once kids leave primary school they move off to a high school somewhere else in the country, live in halls, have a budget and learn to stand on their own feet and become more socially aware. It might get rid of that small town ned mentality that seems to plague the country. |
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| azzuri |
I agree with the point about kids going for career advancement and money. The thing is though that you are a different person when you leave uni to the one you were when you arrived, especially if you leave home to go there.
I've seen too many of the people I went to school with stay at home with their parents to commute to uni, doing some business or marketing course for 3 or 4 years with all the promises of great salaries upon graduation, only to find once leaving that there are no jobs for them to do and they are saddled with 15K worth of debt. These sorts of courses I think provide very little in the way of 'worth' to the person doing them, and give them very little (if any) career prospects. Courses which do actually provide people with an education such as economics, politics, philosophy, history, english literature etc. can be of great worth to a person, teaching them to think in ways they never though possible and helping them to improve their writing skills also. I wouldn't trade my years at uni for anything either - and I have seen both sides of the above coin. I stayed at home with parents to study a business course at one of the new 'poly-tech' unis before moving to Dundee Uni to study politics. If you don't mind me asking Avatar, how long have you been in NI and how do you like it? |
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| Avatar |
"The thing is though that you are a different person when you leave uni to the one you were when you arived, especially if you leave home to go there."
Maybe you've hit the nail on the head there as to why there is quite a big drop out rate - it doesnt explain the differences between Scotland and England, but its certainly a valid point. Ive been living in NI since November 2005. I went to Uni in Dundee also and studied Psychology and Sociology at Abertay, I stayed there for about a year after I graduated but I kept falling behind with bills, rent and such - so eventually I had a choice of moving back home with my mum or moving into my girlfriends sisters old house in Belfast with her - so the latter was way more preferable Despite what the media try to portray I find Belfast to be very friendly, open minded and suprisingly a lot less prejudice place than say Dumfries. The only thing I dont like is not being able to get directly involved in Scottish politics and the only Scottish newspaper I can find over here is the Daily Record. I did apply for a job with the SDLP who are a nationalist party over here, hoping that I could get at least some kind of experience in politics but that didnt seem to amount to anything. One of the things I found strange about Belfast was the lack of pubs in the city centre - go anywhere in Scotland and theres one at the end of every street and usually in between, over here you have to go hunting for them. In a nutshell though Belfast is great.
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| Aventinian |
Over the course of a life? If I had to give £1,000 of my salary a year, for 16 years, to see that I had a university education I'd happily give it - and a lot more besides.
The house prices are a completely different issue. They impact on all young house buyers and will not be solved in reference to student debt.
Of course, that's a matter of individual responsibility. Ie, do you believe that university education will benefit you as a person. I might well not.
Perhaps it should be raised. I'm not particularly concerned the individual figures. But then again, even if you do take education that is essentially specialised and vocational, I believe that is a debt and the intention should be to repay it rather than, presumably, avoid it. The reason for the threshold is so that going to university never financially cripples anybody - particularly graduates starting out in their chosen career, not so that it can be avoided if the graduate's 'investment' doesn't work out.
True enough, not all courses lead to high salaries. There are things like media studies and classics which are effectively useless to the job market. Either way, if you're doing it for your own benefit (as you suggest) I don't see why you shouldn't pay for that privilege. Either way, it's still not huge sums of money over a lifetime.
I'd agree with that too. A lot of students are encouraged, however, to do this independently of their course.
So effectively you're creating two tiers of usefulness in degrees? Well perhaps if you go to uni and do media studies (the constantly demonised course) and don't get a good job at the end, it can be reasonably described as fairly useless, and thus to be paid for? In that case there are two sorts of people - those who financially benefit and those who did useless courses, and you've effectively agreed that people in both camps should pay. I apologise if this is a bit incomprehensible. Blame the drink. |
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| azzuri |
I agree wholeheartedly about Belfast - I lived in a wee town 20 mins from the city last year and have only returned home to sell my property and I'm going off round the world for the next six months in August.
I like Northern Ireland a lot, partly because there are lots more opportunities, living is more affordable and life is a little more laid back. I agree also about the Scottish Politics part - that was one of the main reasons this site was set up - so I could keep in touch with it all while I was there! People are indeed very friendly, though with the prejudice I imagine they just manage to hide it all a lot better (they've certainly had the practice!). Then again, the last fortnight isn't really the best time to judge NI! Not sure where I'm going to live when I come back. Girlfriend obviously would like to move back home (NI) and I feel very depressed in my home town - everywhere I look all I see is poverty and things turning to s**t. Been a Labour council since Jesus was a baby and still they don't learn - ah well! Might end up moving to NI again, but more likely is finding somewhere I can call home in Scotland. |
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| Avatar |
"So effectively you're creating two tiers of usefulness in degrees? Well perhaps if you go to uni and do media studies (the constantly demonised course) and don't get a good job at the end, it can be reasonably described as fairly useless, and thus to be paid for? In that case there are two sorts of people - those who financially benefit and those who did useless courses, and you've effectively agreed that people in both camps should pay.
I apologise if this is a bit incomprehensible. Blame the drink." In that case I retract my opinion on that - I think courses that can be applied to society should recieve better funding and work placements - and people who study random courses - which cant guarantee any kind of work-niche or be beneficial to society at large should be funded privately. and dont worry Ive been enjoying a few drinks myself
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| Avatar |
" Then again, the last fortnight isn't really the best time to judge NI! "
It was suprisingly peaceful, I walked down the Lisburn road on the day of the marches, and I have to admit I was quite intimidated by all the people waving Union Jacks - its something I usually associate with BNP supporters and English Football hooligans - but they were all well behaved if a bit messy. "I feel very depressed in my home town - everywhere I look all I see is poverty and things turning to s**t." Yeah thats how I feel, at one point I was quite desperate to get away from Scotland, but after being away for a while I managed to get some perspective on things and felt quite selfish for wanting to move away to more afluent areas outside of Scotland instead of staying and trying to make a difference. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
and they aint slow in asking, got the letter at the end of third year as well. personally i feel that the level of debt i already have is enough to deal with for having a university education. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
azzuri i think as a nationalist you should stop saying ni, it gives it credence as a seperate country  northern irelands donegal.
i agree with what you say about personal development. uni did teach me a lot about writing skills and through doing some work on the situation in ireland changed some of my views, it also gave me a realistic view of how difficult social policy can be. as well as that before i went to uni i was pretty bad at doing presentations etc, i dont like doing them but am a whole lot better at them than i was and i suppose it gives you a lot of confidence that you have actually got a degree. i am the only person in my whole family ever to have got one as well. the downside though is finding a decent job! right now am doing a research position for a charity but its temporary and minimum wage, after that am volunteering for the citizens advice so hopefully that experience will help. |
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| Anthropos |
What the heck is “HE culture” for which one must be familiar? The reason for the high drop out rates at the institutions you mention is that most of those people should never have been there in the first place. Because such places are state funded they have an incentive to try and matriculate as many people as possible in order to screw as much money out the government as possible. The fact that such people are not suitable for that type of education is overlooked in the cash grab frenzy. I feel sorry for the innocents who get caught up in this scam, who usually lack the sophistication of those who attend Edinburgh or St Andrews, and find themselves obliged to take McJobs after receiving their umpteenth rejection letter when it finally dawns on them that they have been sold a pig in a poke.
You would think from what you have written that debt aversion was normal, it is not, our society runs on debt. People saddle themselves willingly with debt to buy houses, to buy cars and all sorts of consumer goods (i.e. crap). Why then is it thought ‘disgusting’ that students should run up debts to buy a university education which is, rather properly to be regarded – as long as it is not a noddy degree - as an investment? People naturally hate paying for something that has previously cost them nothing, and in Scotland there is also the statist mentality that believes government handouts should fund everything. If higher education is a good thing (in many cases a sizeable ‘if’), and we are accustomed to pay for good things, why not? Three meals a day and a roof over your head are good things, for which we pay without question. |
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| SF102 |
Anthropos,
I have to disagree with you on principle of debt. No where else would you get that amount of "credit" without having the means to pay it back. To start giving money away to kids (and that what they are really just kids) is wrong. Unless they have a lived or have family that have either been to uni or in the financial services industry then how are they supposed to know about the crippling levels of debt and how to avoid it. When i was 18 i didn't know about finances it was there i spent it and when it wasn't i borrowed it never mind that sooner or later i'd have to pay it back . .that didn't even come into at the time and i can't be much different from the students at uni. You say you feel sorry for the "innocents" that are caught up in this scam . . . . atleast they have had the chance to go to uni. for many people thats just not an option. As for noddy degrees is that the fault of the student? who decides what is and what is not a noddy degree? |
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| garye |
Firstly there is the lack of support that families could offer in three ways 1) Practical. If no one in your family has ever been to Uni then they won't be able to help in terms of giving advice on going about your work. Simple what to do what not to do type stuff that many students whose older brothers/sisters or mums & Dads who went to UNi can pass on. There is also an issue in terms of workload. Families who don't have a history of people going to UNi often don't understand the volume of work expected of an undergraduate and thus (if they are staying at home) may not be able to give the time and space that is needed. 2) Emotional. Being a student can be a difficult time. If you have a family who are either a) sceptical and unsupportive or b) outrightly hostile then the weight of getting through the course can be difficult. 3) Financial As mentioned above. If you come from a family where you are expected to be bringing in money to the house by your late teens and not only that but you require financial support then your family might see Uni as a waste of time. Hardly the best background for completing a degree. Secondly, in purely academic terms the way you work at Uni is completely different than school and again this can come as a big shock to many undergraduates who are first of family. Everything from the amount of work you have to do yourself, the way work is marked having to speak out in tutorials, they can all be difficult obstacles to overcome. Thirdly, in purely cultural terms Universities can be intimidating places, particularly if you come from a disadvantaged background and are suddenlty surrounded by large nos. of a social mix of people with whom you are really unfamiliar. This can be a major drain on self confidence.
Hmm, all of the institutions included in these statistics are state funded so you supposed distiction above is totally irrelevant
I think this statement shows quite alot about where you are coming from and it isn't a particularly snob free zone....
Since you seem so sure in your observations, perhaps you would like to quote some destination statistics to back up your sweeping generalisation? I can't find any breakdown for individual institutions but the most recent general survey: http://www.futureskillsscotland.o...ket_for_Graduates_in_Scotland.asp shows that the increase in numbers of gradutes (including through increase in numbers at the Paisleys Abertays and Napiers of the HE world) has been met by an increase in demand from employers. Hardly evidence of a "scam" "pig in a poke" or "mickey mouse" degrees
People keep going on about HE being an investment. An investment for who exactly. It isn't just the individual that benefits from gaining a degree but also the company that employs them and the state both through increased tax collection, and increased economic growth all round. As far as I am concerned (and I am aware that this is a political opinion) the responsibility has swung too far towards the individuals concerned and both employers and the state should be making a greater contribution.
I think you'll find that what pisses people off is the fact that the generation that have put through the whole fees stuff is the generation who had all their fees paid and also got Student Grants to support them. The folk who are lumbering themselves with debt aren't in the " hate paying for something that has previously cost them nothing" bracket because somebody said "I'm alright Jack" and pulled that ladder up. |
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| Aventinian |
I think you're judging two very different things together. Commercial debt, I agree, would be a problem. In most situations with debt, it is interest demands which cripple a person financially. Student loans are (and should continue to be) interest free in real terms. Not only that, but with a sensible bottom-level before payments kick in, no one will ever be in an awful situation. |
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| SF102 |
Commercial debt or not it still had to be paid back. The point i was trying to make maybe not successfully is that at 18 you give a person money the chances are they're gonna blow it. Please whilst reading this post bear (bare?) in mind that i've never been to uni so everything from this point onwards is merely observation. It seems that Students even tho have (or have not) crippling levels of debt they still spend a lot of time (and money) in the student union bar. Now forgive if i'm wrong . . but surely the bar has to charge for it's drinks? that being the case then surely if the students weren't spending money on booze their loans wouldn't be so high when they left? or am i thinking too simplistic here? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| azzuri |
[quote="Aventinian"]
Gonnae tell the SAAS that then? The interest charged on my loans was 1.5% above inflation this year - and it rises steadily each year by about 0.5%. Maybe the state is in trouble! |
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| Anthropos |
They are not kids they are adults.
Hate to sound like a stuck record but they are adults, and as such enjoy adult freedoms which entail adult responsibilities. I find the idea that people have to be protected from themselves not just ridiculous but a wee bit sinister too. If they commit crimes they have to go to prison.
Well you don’t sound too sure, but besides you have not given any better reason than you wouldn’t have known at that age. Student loans have been around for years. Loans are also typical in America, are we not as responsible as our American cousins?
For some people it clearly shouldn’t be an option, they should not be accepted without some indication of academic merit. It is what you learn there that is important, not merely attending.
You use common sense. Would you agree that someone holding down a place in the Celtic or Manchester United team is likely to be a better footballer than some guy playing for Elgin City or Wycombe Wanderers? Universities with low entrance requirements and poor standards of teaching will not produce top quality graduates and their degrees will be regarded noddy degrees. Quite straightforward. In the context of work, employers will not look enthusiastically on graduates of these aforementioned noddy institutions and will prefer graduates from institutions that attract the most highly-qualified students with the best academics teaching in them. |
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| garye |
More sweeping generalisations, I see you've failed to come up with any insitution specific statistics to back up your statements. Here's a question for you ANthropos, which of the following courses has the highest employment rate for graduates?: Paisley University, B. Ed (Hons) Primary Education St Andrews University, MA (Hons) Art History Abertay University B.Sc (Hons)Computer Games Technology |
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| Aventinian |
I suppose you have to have something to get you through the week. And if you can't drink like a fish when you're young, when can you? It's not long before hangovers, beer bellies and responsibilities start creeping into one's drinking time.
I didn't know that, I must admit. I must be believing the propaganda. |
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| azzuri |
When I started out at uni in 2000, the rates of interest were hardly even worth worrying about. It seems however that as the budget deficit is growing by around 7 billion Sterling per month, they need to tighten their belts somewhere. Rising student loan interest rates are obviously a sign of this.
They don't tell you this of course, they just send a letter through every 6 months informing you of a rates change in the very small print. |
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| Anthropos |
Nor for someone who has an aptitude for academic work, which undergraduates should (although many of them clearly don’t). The workload is fairly light for most undergraduate degrees, which takes us back to my first sentence, universities have long since changed to fit the people who attend them rather than the other way about. That is why even a place like Glasgow University (supposedly one of the best places) thinks its students require remedial English:
Yes but unlike other institutions the ones you mention have undemanding entry requirements (along with low standards of teaching). They will take people with C & D grades, and worse if it will get a few more quid in their coffers.
Large Sigh Yeah I knew the accusation of snobbery would turn up sooner or later, it is the standard ignoble tactic people like yourself use to try and stamp out debate (usually when your arguments don’t stack up). Peter Peacock and the principal of Paisley U might agree with you, the rest of us won’t. Sorry, no sale.
An investment for he who benefits from it. Why should someone who has never been near a university have to foot the bill? As for increased economic growth, well Scotland has the highest level of graduates in Europe and figures for economic growth are not impressive. An individuals education should primarily be between them and the institution they attend. I have no objections to state funded scholarships from those genuinely in need, after all that is beneficial to the economy, but this would only be done on grounds of genuine academic merit. Apart from that the state should keep out of it or else the higher education sector will end up in the same mess as the state schooling.
That is because in the past student numbers were considerably lower and therefore more affordable. As I said earlier, people hate paying for something previously free. Funding in real terms has fallen dramatically in the last 30 years, Funding per student has more than halved, salaries paid to academics have also fallen in comparative terms. Twenty-five years ago a university lecturer was a well-paid professional. That is no longer the case. Are you seriously saying the taxpayer should have to stump up because that would be a considerable increase? Not too mention the fact that state controlled industries rarely do well.
I sincerely hope it is number three, although what you think the point of comparing one of the worst degrees at St Andrews (only taken by morons like Prince William) with one of the most successful at Abertay proves I don’t know. As for intuitions statistics, the publish the bloody things every year! However it raises a good point about how the new universities can develop. Certainly, for the weaker universities like Abertay, specialisation in a limited number of subjects like this one would appear to offer the best hope of improvement as it is unrealistic to suppose that they can achieve overall excellence in a wide range of subjects like Edinburgh, but by concentrating their resources and specialising, seek to attain an excellent standard in particular areas. Nobody is going to go to Paisley, Abertay or Napier rather than Edinburgh or LSE unless Paisley/Napier/Abertay can offer something that Edinburgh or LSE can't or won't provide. |
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| Avatar |
"They are not kids they are adults. "
rubbish - 18 year olds are not adults!! "More sweeping generalisations, I see you've failed to come up with any insitution specific statistics to back up your statements. Here's a question for you ANthropos, which of the following courses has the highest employment rate for graduates?: Paisley University, B. Ed (Hons) Primary Education St Andrews University, MA (Hons) Art History Abertay University B.Sc (Hons)Computer Games Technology" I would go for C simply because I have many friends who studied that course and now have decent jobs with decent pay - not to mention Abertay is the only university in the uk that does that course... even the heir to the throne had to join the army to get a decent job after getting his degree in art history from st andrews - doesnt bode well for the rest of us, lol. actually I was wondering my arogant ex girlfriend said that degrees in england wales and NI are only three years because they do A levels which are of a higher grade than Highers therefore Scotlands courses have to be 4years in order to have Scottish degrees be the same level as the rest of the uk - does anyone know if this is true or false? |
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| Anthropos |
You become an adult when your 18! You get to vote and everything.
I believe he graduated with an upper second in Geography, not History of Art, though he makes fine cannon fodder regardless. 
Yes it is true, first year in Scotland is about the standard of second year A Level in England. People who have passed the A Level or Advanced Higher go straight into the second year because they have already covered the first year work. |
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| Avatar |
"You become an adult when your 18! You get to vote and everything. "
true but mentally most 18 year olds are not adults "I believe he graduated with an upper second in Geography, not History of Art, though he makes fine cannon fodder regardless. " huh. I thought he went to uni and studied art history "Yes it is true, first year in Scotland is about the standard of second year A Level in England. People who have passed the A Level or Advanced Higher go straight into the second year because they have already covered the first year work" weird - arent their gsces only one year though? I didnt have advanced highers in my day we had AS something or others - all I remember of first year uni was crap like it101 and similar basic stuff im sure they could cut off that extra year to allieviate student debt. |
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| SLG |
I (and a lot of my friends) was 17 when I went to uni. I knew 16 year olds there as well.
Most of the English folk I knew did have the option to go straight into second year, but most of the chose not to (although that might be different now due to the debt situation). I was given the impression that (for my course at least) about the first half of first year had been covered in their A level course, but by the second half we were studying areas they had not covered. But remember, English kids are usually a year older than their Scottish counterparts, so we should finish a four year degree at the same age as they finish a three year one. |
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| Anthropos |
Well yeah I would agree with you in many cases, but then you get people of 30 and older who are not mentally adults, but for the purposes of law they are classed as adults.
Definitely Geography, did a quick google to confirm: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4083868.stm
The two systems either side of the border are fairly similar up until it is time for Highers, which we spend a year on, while they do 2 year A Levels, and as a result our degrees are 4 years and theirs 3, but they are broadly equivalent.
With costs being more of an issue these days I think it ought to be considered cutting the Scottish degree to 3 years. The question must be asked, what do we Scots get for our extra year? I think the answer is not much. Refering back to something garye said about students from disadvantaged areas, I also think all pupils should leave school at 16, and those aiming for university should then have the option of going to an FE college for a couple of years where they can receive suitable preparation for that level of education (as well as having their literacy brought up to standard) while their less academic comrades can off and do something more suited to their abilities. One of the biggest disadvantages these people face is their local enviroment with its anti intellectual ethos, and it is from that they need to break free. |
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| garye |
Sorry disagree,when I was at Uni many of the lecturers in first year were at pains to point out to students that if they found Highers fairly easy and thought that they could breeze past first year in the same way they would struggle and might drop out. In the instances of some people I knew the lecturers were right.
OK so to back up your stereotying of Paisley, Napier etc you dredge up report relating to Glasgow Uni!? Aye right
Paisley, Napier etc all have some courses which are either a) more competetive b) have higher entry qualifications or c) both than some courses at the likes of Edinburgh, Glasgow and St Andrews. Also every Uni in Scotland has courses for which C grades are accepted-possibly because it is a Higher pass? Nobody makes offers or lists as preferred entry requirements a D grade although some insitutions (including Edinburgh, Glasgow and St Andrews)may at their discretion accept a student who gets a D along with other passes at A-C and completes their summer school
I notice you didn't requote what my post was referring to. Could you possibly outline exactly why you think your statement
is free from good old fashioned snobbery?
For the past three years in Scotland those moving onto FE/HE have been around 47%-51% of school leavers. Of the remainder those who enter vocational training (and therefore benefit from it, often with salaries better than some graduates) have their training funded by the state. Other individuals may have funding via their employer. So if university fees were paid and grants provided I think that would leave a fairly small number of people with any kind of justified complaint. Oh and that stat also means that there are a fair number of older workers who have never seen the inside of a Uni but their sons & daughters might just- if the funding package is right. To tell the truth I can't think of any major occupational group outwith graduate occupations with entrants who have to get themelves into debt to finance their education/training.
Well lets just say that there might just be other factors at play, eh? I think it is almost Universally accepted that in a modern ecenomy a good supply of graduates is vital in order to compete internationally. As alluded to in the following article: http://business.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=216&id=1018942006 Which also suggests debt is putting potential students off HE.
OK I accept what you'r saying in terms of funding. But there were far fewer graduate jobs 30 years ago and many employers took a far greater responsibility for training their staff, often paying for day release courses etc which back then were the mainstay of most Colleges. Now too many employers simply think they can roll up and employ a graduate without taking any responsibility for student finance. What I'm saying is that bot hthe State and Employers need the responsibility shifted back to them a bit and away from individuals. If they baulk at doing it through taxation then they should maybe look at more part time degrees financed directly by employers.
Actually I would have thought the B Ed. at Paisley would be the highest uptake. Why you hope it would be numbers three over one of the most respected and long established Primary Teacher training courses I don't know but there you go. The point I'm making is that there are quality, demanding courses with competetive entry at all Universities in Scotland and standards vary from department to department and from course to course. What you are trying to do is stereotype institutions based on you own predjudices (and I say your own predjucies because you haven't given us anything to back up what you say). I personally don't think that is helpful to anybody.
Aye right and where are all the NQ, HNC and HND students supposed to go? Most FE Colleges are bursting at the seams at the moment. Away back to La La land Anthropos. |
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| Anthropos |
The discussion seems to have spilt into two different but related subjects, firstly the standard of higher education, and secondly who should pay for it. I shall here deal with the first of those:
Highers are so easy retards could pass them and that a first year course should be more difficult is the least you should expect. However what does a first year have to do? 3 essays and three exams (where the candidate can pick the questions), hardly a Herculean task.
The point was that Glasgow is supposed to be one of our best universities, and if Glasgow is admitting a large portion of illiterates just how many are being admitted to places like Paisley & Napier? Unless of course you seriously think Paisleys students are superior, and if so why do they have inferior exam results? At least someone at Glasgow is being honest about the problems they have, I don’t any of the noddy universities would dare upset the gravy train in that way.
The average entry requirements for all intuitions are published and you can clearly see what the average entry grades are for each one.
I can’t see anything snobbish about it. It is not dissimilar to your remarks about poorer students:
Are you not basically saying the same thing?
Because state education is such a disaster, though if Paisley is where they get the recruits from it is not so surprising.
I don’t know who you think I ought to be being ‘helpful’ to, but your main point seems to be “not all universities are totally pish” and I have already said in a previous post that some of the weaker universities can achieve excellence by specialisation in a limited number of subjects which their competitors can’t or won’t provide. As for my “own prejudices”, what you are objection to is merely the common sense deductions that people do quite reasonably make, that “Universities with low entrance requirements and poor standards of teaching will not produce top quality graduates” is simply a statement of fact, that it is a generalisation does not make it any the less true.
Yeah your right, if there schools can’t teach them that is just tough s**t, should have got themselves born to better parents. |
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| Avatar |
"Highers are so easy retards could pass them and that a first year course should be more difficult is the least you should expect. However what does a first year have to do? 3 essays and three exams (where the candidate can pick the questions), hardly a Herculean task"
I dont know, I know a few people that failed highers that I would consider to be fairly intelligent - in fact I failed higher physics but passed all my other highers and got a degree - so doesnt it really depend on the highers people choose? I would say there is a bigger discrepancy between standard grades and higher grades - than between higher and uni courses. 3 essays and three exams? thats pretty lax, which uni is that? We had 8 modules per year I think maybe two that were just coursework in first year and then 6 essays and six exams. |
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| azzuri |
...lucky for you - my first year consisted of 12 pieces of coursework and 6 exams. Around 30-40% of the people on my course did't make it to second year. I can categorically say that due to the amount of work I had to do in first year that it was definitely the most difficult of my time at uni. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| parkhead_rfb |
i studied politics at caledonian university in glasgow and when i was doing a module on the civil service i was taught by robert pyper, he seems to be the main authority on this area in britain. not too bad for a noddy university, i can also point out other examples of well respected academics teaching there. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Anthropos |
Ah well at least you failed one of the most difficult Highers. A lot of people choose soft subjects like Business Admin, Travel & Tourism. English is ridiculously easy as is Modern Studies, History and Sociology are very undemanding too. |
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| Economist |
Maybe it is now. I did the old revised English Higher in 2001 - the year they introduced Higher Still - and Higher English then was regarded to be far more challenging than its English A level equivalent. As for first year being stupendously easy I was the same I had 8 pieces of coursework, 2 class tests and 6 final exams. It was no cakewalk. My "easiest" year was my final year. |
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| garye |
It's too late for me to answer all the rest of your points and I'm taking too much time laughing at this anyway...but can you just answer me regarding the above-whit the feck are you talking about? Oh and I'm not really a pedant but since you're going on about noddy institutions, sub standard teaching, easy Highers, easy English Highers blah blah retards blah blah illiterate students etc etc gaunae gie's a 50 word punnie oan the difference atween there, they're and their? |
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| Anthropos |
A pointless bit of flippancy to end the post on, not really worth going into. One of my 'back of beer mat' ideas to improve standards is to get kids out of school at sixteen as I think schools retard peoples development. As nobody is planning to do this the idea is hardly worth discussing, but the point was that pupils in the worst schools would benefit from being taken out of that particular environment, though I think it is probably true of all schools. Anyway you have already delivered your verdict on that idea, and I am packing for my return trip to La La Land.
Like your "I'm not really a pedant but" start to that para, well what can I say, I should have red pen marks all over my posting, but I must state in my defence that I don't read what I have written too closely, and I am not holding myself up as an example of educational excellence personified.
On another forum I did once write quite a lengthy post on a subject to which one guy (who held a different opinion) responded by pointing out that I had missed a comma in my first sentence, then wrote the single word 'idiot', and nothing more. |
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