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Cruachan

Scottish Citizenship

Something's bothering me about something Dave Coull said on another thread. Shocked

Is it the case that following independence, to be a Citizen of the "new" Scottish state, a person would have to be resident at the time of independence?

What about someone who was born in Scotland, lives "abroad" and wishes to have Scottish Citzenship?  Let's take a random example of someone who currently lives in the English Midlands but was born in the Scottish Lothians?...and whose parents, grandparents, etc are/were Scottish.  Do English, Japanese, Brazilian students who happen to be at University for a couple of years in Scotland get more Citizenship rights than those of us who happen to live away for the moment?

Has the Scottish Government made any explicit statements on this?  Is it somewhere in the National Conversation document?

Fair enough that you have live in a country to vote, but surely applying for citizenship is something else?

Can anyone put my mind at rest?! Confused   Otherwise me and mine are definitely packing our bags in the next 23 months!
Shagpile

As far as I'm aware, they want to attract expats back as a priority of reversing the trend of Scotlands shrinking population. I could be wrong though.

IMHO they wont have to try too hard, with the Scottish economy fully under Scottish control.
Andrew Constantine

Citizenship to be based on ethnicity as well as location?

Surely a future Scottish citizenship will be open both to all legally resident and domiciled in Scotland ... and to all ethnic Scottish, wherever they may be living, when independence is achieved?

The above basis is presumed to be how the English will go about drafting the laws on English citizenship.

I use the word 'ethnicity' above of course in its non-racial sense.

Andrew Constantine
Scotland86

Come on i aint trying to insult anyones intelligence here but if your birth certificate states a place in Scotland as your place of birth regardless of your current residence i dont think there going to refuse you Scottish citizenship.
Dave Coull

Azzuri moved a discussion about Scottish identity to the "Scottish News, Life and Society" section, saying it

Quote:
doesn't really have much to do with Scottish politics


to which, in true pantomime season fashion, I responded

Quote:
Oh, yes, it does!


But I'll settle for this new spin-off thread started by Cruachan

Cruachan wrote:
Something's bothering me about something Dave Coull said on another thread. Shocked

Is it the case that following independence, to be a Citizen of the "new" Scottish state, a person would have to be resident at the time of independence?


As a matter of fact, I didn't say that. What I actually said was something rather different. Here it is.

I wrote:
As I understand it, the policy of the SNP is that anybody, regardless of where they were born, who is NORMALLY RESIDENT in Scotland at the time of independence, will AUTOMATICALLY qualify for Scottish citizenship. Also, as I understand it, the Green party, the SSP, and Solidarity all agree with this.


So what that means is that, so far as I understand it, there appears to be cross-party support amongst those who favour independence that being NORMALLY RESIDENT  (note that bit, not just, my name is Donald Trump and I have plans for turning the whole of the North East of Scotland into one big golf course and I flew in last night in my private jet and booked into this hotel that I've just bought) at the time of independence would  mean a person AUTOMATICALLY qualifies for citizenship. They would be automatically INCLUDED. However, there is nothing in that about automatically EXCLUDING everybody who isn't automatically included. It is possible that the SNP, Solidarity, the Greens, SSP etc may have different policies on who ELSE should be included. I was stating what I understand to be the bit that is generally agreed about who would AUTOMATICALLY be INCLUDED.

Cruachan wrote:
Can anyone put my mind at rest?! Confused   Otherwise me and mine are definitely packing our bags in the next 23 months!


So far as folk who were not actually born here, for "automatic" citizenship to apply, there would presumably have to be a sufficient period of residency to establish a long-term commitment to Scotland. Like I said, my stepson has stated that, as soon as it looks like there is a target date for independence, he intends to establish residence, with the intention of making this "permanent", in order to put his claim for Scottish citizenship beyond doubt.
azzuri

...if people believe it has more to do with this section than that one, I'll happily put it back.

Personally, I think this has more to do with individual opinions on the nature of Scottish identity than the ultra-organised, neutral world of Scottish politics. Very Happy
Dave Coull

azzuri wrote:
...if people believe it has more to do with this section than that one, I'll happily put it back.


I don't think that is necessary. Perhaps the other thread was more about "individual opinions on the nature of Scottish identity" whereas this one is specifically about a political concept, and, sooner or later, a legal concept, "Scottish Citizenship".
Reluctant Hero

Re: Scottish Citizenship

Cruachan wrote:
Is it the case that following independence, to be a Citizen of the "new" Scottish state, a person would have to be resident at the time of independence?

Can anyone put my mind at rest?! Confused   Otherwise me and mine are definitely packing our bags in the next 23 months!


Well, the way I look at it is.  Are the SNP going to turn round and say to Sean Connery that he is not a Scottish Citizen?

You have no need to worry.
agentmancuso

Re: Citizenship to be based on ethnicity as well as location

Andrew Constantine wrote:
I use the word 'ethnicity' above of course in its non-racial sense.


Which is?
babykitten

I was born in England, to Scottish parents, but have lived in Scotland almost all my life.  I have no real desire to move away, but having been unemployed for nearly a year now with little prospect of getting a decent job here in my field, it does concern me that I might have to move away in order to start earning decently again. Sad
Holebender

SNP policy has long been (and remains) that all persons born in or legally resident in Scotland at the time of independence should be automatically entitled to citizenship. Legal residence would exclude students who have their permanent residence elsewhere.

Obviously, like everything else, such matters would ultimately be decided by the Scottish Parliament of the day. Just because a particular political party supports a particular idea, it doesn't make it the law of the land.

Personally, I'd support the following; at the time of Scotland's independence, every living UK citizen and/or legal resident of the UK should be entitled to choose whether to become a citizen of Scotland or of the remainder of the UK. All these people currently have the automatic right to live anywhere in the UK (including Scotland) so they should have the right to choose their citizenship after independence. I'd also support making it very easy for anyone with at least one grandparent who was born in Scotland to become a citizen if he/she applied for it.
Cruachan

Holebender said "SNP policy has long been (and remains) that all persons born in or legally resident in Scotland at the time of independence should be automatically entitled to citizenship"

Thanks. You have all, mostly, put my mind at rest.  I take the point about it depends on the policies of the parties at the time, but the the time is not that far off.

It would  of course be one of the many detailed elements of the negotiations between the Scottish Government and UK Government after a "Yes" vote in the referendum.

I hope that Dave Coull and Holebender are right that a fairly inclusive approach would likely be taken by the Scottish Government.  I would just prefer it to be automatic to those who were born in Scotland rather than having to apply through some bureacractic process.

I may also hedge my bets and restart negotiations with my domestic manager about our (my) often talked about, but never quite resolved,  plan to move North.
agentmancuso

Holebender wrote:
Personally, I'd support the following; at the time of Scotland's independence, every living UK citizen and/or legal resident of the UK should be entitled to choose whether to become a citizen of Scotland or of the remainder of the UK. All these people currently have the automatic right to live anywhere in the UK (including Scotland) so they should have the right to choose their citizenship after independence. I'd also support making it very easy for anyone with at least one grandparent who was born in Scotland to become a citizen if he/she applied for it.


Yes, sensible idea.
Aventinian

Re: Citizenship to be based on ethnicity as well as location

Andrew Constantine wrote:
I use the word 'ethnicity' above of course in its non-racial sense.


I wasn't aware there was one...
Scotland86

Oh dont be so stupid Aven of course there is. Mind you with your tory polluted mind you would see anything that aint a generalised term as racist.
Aventinian

Scotland86 wrote:
Oh dont be so stupid Aven of course there is. Mind you with your tory polluted mind you would see anything that aint a generalised term as racist.


I wasn't aware Tories were generally stereotyped as being quick to label things as racist.

So instead of insulting me (water off a duck's back in here) then perhaps you could tell me about non-racial ethnicity...
Scotland86

he said non racist not non racial there is a difference straight away.
Aventinian

Scotland86 wrote:
he said non racist not non racial there is a difference straight away.


Well, whilst it seems that a racial basis for citizenship doesn't bother you, I will correct you. What he said was "I use the word 'ethnicity' above of course in its non-racial sense. "
Scotland86

I will tell you what i see as Scottish.

Someone born within the Scottish border or someone with a bloodline to Scotland no further than there grandparents.

As for the racist/racial point i misread his post and apologise for my mistake
azzuri

Scotland86 wrote:
I will tell you what i see as Scottish.

Someone born within the Scottish border or someone with a bloodline to Scotland no further than there grandparents.

As for the racist/racial point i misread his post and apologise for my mistake


That's not what I see as Scottish or Scottishness. Identity is fluid, not set by hard and fast rules.

Personally, I think anyone who wishes to settle within the borders of the country has the right to call themselves Scottish. I see no need for it to be based upon the ovarian lottery.
Scott2006

As I see it, i'd rather be a citizen of the world, while not advocating a one-world government.
We should be free to move anywhere in the world without hindrance, without undue political interference and overly bureaucratic quotas and visas/waivers.

Anybody who wants to help Scotland flourish in some way by living here or planning to live here should be encouraged to do so.

Scottish self-government and independence is about providing and aspiring to better government for all parts of Scottish society and all walks of life.

Blood line nonsense isn't needed.
Dave Coull

Scott2006 wrote:
As I see it, i'd rather be a citizen of the world, while not advocating a one-world government.
We should be free to move anywhere in the world without hindrance, without undue political interference and overly bureaucratic quotas and visas/waivers.

Anybody who wants to help Scotland flourish in some way by living here or planning to live here should be encouraged to do so.


I agree with that.

Scott2006 wrote:
Blood line nonsense isn't needed.


I agree with that too.
Holebender

So... who would you turn to when Somali pirates kidnap you? Governments and their embassies have their uses.
Scotland86

Bloodline aint important? Except it makes us who we are but ok it aint important
Holebender

Who is more Scottish in your "bloodline" world; an American born person whose great great grandparents emigrated from Scotland and whose every ancestor only ever bred with another person of Scots ancestry, or a Scottish born person whose parents immigrated from Pakistan, and whose every ancestor only ever bred with another person from Pakistan?
agentmancuso

Scotland86 wrote:
Bloodline aint important? Except it makes us who we are but ok it aint important


Bloodline is the purest superstition.
Scotland86

I dont live in a bloodline world as you put it but bloodline is one way of determining a nationality.
Holebender

In that case, answer my question. Which of the two people above is more Scottish, in your opinion? One has 100% "Scottish" genes while the other has no "Scottish" genes at all.
Scotland86

Well you answered it yourself. If one person is 100% and the other has nothing to do with Scotland then the 100% Scottish person is more Scottish. I know your a tory but even you can do maths that simple surely
Red Justice

He is actually SNP but anyone can be forgiven for not knowing the difference between Tory and some of the SNP members
Holebender

Scotland86 wrote:
Well you answered it yourself. If one person is 100% and the other has nothing to do with Scotland then the 100% Scottish person is more Scottish. I know your a tory but even you can do maths that simple surely

I'll let the tory comment slide for now... but don't make the mistake of thinking I am Aventinian.

Look at the question I posed; one person is a fifth generation US Citizen but every gene in his body is of Scottish origin, the other person was born in Scotland and has lived in Scotland all his life but every gene in his body is of Pakistani origin. You think bloodlines are important so tell us which of these people is more Scottish, the "pure" ethnic Scot who has had nothing to do with Scotland for almost two centuries, or the ethnic Pakistani who is born in Scotland, lives all his life in Scotland, and holds a UK passport?
Scotland86

Damn sorry holebender just came out a post with aven when i read this sub conciously mixed you both up. please allow me to retract the tory comment.

Now back to your question. I would have to say that it was the Pakistani man, as i have said i do not live in a world ruled by bloodline i simply said it is one way of judging nationality and it also makes us who we are. as in out genes ultimately sculpt our personalities. I wouldnt turn up my nose at the American guy claiming to be Scottish though.

As i myself was forced away from Scotland (England) for a large part of my life after the closure of the coal mines it would be unfair to say that just because someone doesnt live in a country that they are not of that nationality.
Aventinian

Scotland86 wrote:
Damn sorry holebender just came out a post with aven when i read this sub conciously mixed you both up. please allow me to retract the tory comment.


Haha. Things must be getting a bit desperate when your arsenal consists of crying "Tory! Tory!". Shockingly enough, I know I'm a Tory, I don't need someone boring on about it.
Scotland86

I wouldnt say that so proudly. From all the Unionist parties the tories have to be by far the worst.
Holebender

You don't seem to know very much about the Labour Party in Scotland.
Scotland86

I dont remember saying in Scotland i said are the worst of all Unionist parties. Please read what i say before criticising my intelligence levels and my knowledge.
Aventinian

Scotland86 wrote:
I wouldnt say that so proudly. From all the Unionist parties the tories have to be by far the worst.


They're the best by my count.
Holebender

Scotland86 wrote:
I dont remember saying in Scotland i said are the worst of all Unionist parties. Please read what i say before criticising my intelligence levels and my knowledge.

OK, forget about the "in Scotland". You don't seem to know much about the Labour Party.
Scotland86

Please tell me how you come to that conclusion. Tell me how you can call Labour anything but thiefs and liars
Holebender

And yet you can say the Tories are "by far the worst"!

At least we know the Tories are self-serving crooks; they make no bones about it and we expect nothing else. Labour, on the other hand, are self-serving crooks who pretend to be something else. They lie and cheat and deceive to line their own pockets. To me, they are much more despicable than the Tories and that is why I said you don't know much about the Labour Party, as you consider the Tories to be "by far the worst".
agentmancuso

Holebender wrote:
And yet you can say the Tories are "by far the worst"!

At least we know the Tories are self-serving crooks; they make no bones about it and we expect nothing else. Labour, on the other hand, are self-serving crooks who pretend to be something else. They lie and cheat and deceive to line their own pockets. To me, they are much more despicable than the Tories and that is why I said you don't know much about the Labour Party, as you consider the Tories to be "by far the worst".


That's pretty much my own feeling too.
Holebender

This fraternal agreement business is all a bit worrying. Where am I going wrong? Wink



Peace on Earth, goodwill to all men.
agentmancuso

Must be seasonal overflow. rendeer

New Year's Resolution: rediscover my bitter side.
Scotland86

I am pretty aware of the way the Labour party cheat and lie to the public. But the Tories added with there rediculously over the top polical correctness and do goodness make me sick to the bone. I am no fan at all of Labour that is for sure.
Holebender

Now I know you're a wind-up merchant. The Tories have to be the least PC or do-goody of the major political parties.

Have you slipped through from some parallel universe?
Scotland86

All major parties are do good and the Tories are no diff and there talk of this eco friendly s**t is blood boiling. Funny enough even though i aint been here long i am thinking your the wind up merchant. your morals seem to change in every post.
Holebender

I am completely consistent. It's not my fault you sometimes have trouble comprehending.

So, are the Tories completely over the top with their PC do-gooding, or are they no different from the rest? Make your mind up and then let us know your latest stance.
Scotland86

I didnt say they were no different i said all major parties are do good and PC just i feel that the tories take it that extra step
agentmancuso

Scotland86 wrote:
I didnt say they were no different i said all major parties are do good and PC just i feel that the tories take it that extra step


Would it be better if major political parties were 'do bad' and un-PC? Like the BNP, say?
Celtic Indian

Scotland86 wrote:
I dont live in a bloodline world as you put it but bloodline is one way of determining a nationality.


I have to disagree with that statement.Bloodlines are a way of determining your race,and shoudn't be considered for nationality.The two are very much different !
Scotland86

Celtic you wouldnt call yourself Scottish/Irish/Welsh or any other nationality because of the blood that flows through you?

I wouldnt put it down as a major thing for me but as far as i have researched my bloodline has been Scottish for many years. but being born within the Scottish border and loving my country is what seals my nationality.
Holebender

There might just be a wee clue in the name Celtic Indian.

By continuing to go on about blood lines and your ancestry you risk alienating many new Scots or giving the impression that you regard yourself and others like you as somehow more Scottish than them. This is why I asked you about the fifth generation American with "pure" Scottish genes, but you don't seem to get it.
azzuri

Where do you live Scotland86?
Scotland86

Holebender your just being a nit picking politically corret moron. I said someones bloodline is one way people decide there nationality. I did not say it was the only way nor did i say it made anyone more or less Scottish than someone else. So do me a favour dont try and make me look like an idiot until you know my full views on something.


Azzurri i live in Midlothian
Holebender

You certainly don't need any help from me to make yourself look like an idiot.

See what I did there? I didn't even need to resort to an ad hominem.



p.s. Happy Christmas.
Scotland86

Its MERRY CHRISTMAS.

To try and say that bloodline is not a valid way in which people determine there nationality is ludicras (that dont look right)
Holebender

Dear oh dear. When you find yourself in a hole it's a good idea to stop digging.

There's more than one way to wish someone the best for the season. You should try to broaden your horizons a bit.

God Jule
Joyeaux Noel
Feliz Natal
Scotland86

Going into foreign languages does not change the fact that it is infact merry christmas not happy christmas. Do you wish people a merry new year?
Holebender

It is a fact that "merry Christmas" is one of the standard greetings people offer each other. Happy Christmas is just about as popular (it was probably more popular before Hollywood took over our culture) and I have to say you are the first grinch ever to have tried to correct me for wishing him a happy Christmas. If you could ever force yourself to cross the border you'd find "Happy Christmas" is far and away the most common greeting in England at this time of year.

As for the New Year, I hope you don't mind that I often wish people a Good or a Prosperous New Year. Please don't call the greetings police on me!



I wonder how deep this hole is going to get...
azzuri

Scotland86 wrote:
Going into foreign languages does not change the fact that it is infact merry christmas not happy christmas. Do you wish people a merry new year?


...get a grip.
Dave Coull

Holebender wished Scotland86 "Happy Christmas" and received the correction

Scotland86 wrote:
Its MERRY CHRISTMAS


That's one possibility.

Mind you, a Christmas can be perfectly "happy" without necessarily being particularly "merry". In fact, some folk might be "happier" with less "merriment". And it follows that a Christmas can also be "merry" without being particularly "happy".

Merry Boxing Day, an hae a guid new year when it comes.
Scotland86

See thats the point its an English greeting must be why it really aint caught on up here. As for new year i hope yourself and every other reader has a very happy new year.

Azzurri your response was pitiful, enjoy yourself numpty.
Holebender

and still deeper he goes...
azzuri

Scotland86 wrote:
See thats the point its an English greeting must be why it really aint caught on up here. As for new year i hope yourself and every other reader has a very happy new year.

Azzurri your response was pitiful, enjoy yourself numpty.


Do you have nothing else in life more important to quarrel about or to worry you? This is complete nonsense, I can't believe I'm actually responding to you, this thread is a complete embarrassment.
Scott2006

May I wish you all the contrafibularity of the season, a fandabidozy xmas and a splendiforous New Year.

On a few newspaper forums, one Labour troll had ' your you're ' and 'there their '  spelling mistakes in every post, combined with lack of capital letters. Must be a common modern way of spelling I presume...

Of course you should be free to express yourself in anyway you want with language - it is only another means of communication (where the person defines the usage and not the usage defines the person) , and only dying or dead languages need to preserve a rigid received pronounciation and usage/spelling.
Celtic Indian

Scotland86 wrote:
Celtic you wouldnt call yourself Scottish/Irish/Welsh or any other nationality because of the blood that flows through you?

I wouldnt put it down as a major thing for me but as far as i have researched my bloodline has been Scottish for many years. but being born within the Scottish border and loving my country is what seals my nationality.


100% Scottish my friend.I'm of Celtic decent on my mothers side and Bengali decent on my fathers.I suppose you could consider that my bloodlines.However,if your talking about my nationality,I'm would consider myself Scottish all the way.I was born in Scotland,grew up here,educated here,pay my taxes here,obey the laws here and support and contribute to its economy.

Nationality to me is a civic thing !
Scotland86

As i say to some people it comes down to more than simply being born somewhere or living in a certain place. Everyone chooses there own method of determining who they are.
Cruachan

Well, to finish off (?) the thread that I started, I am Scottish, I feel Scottish (despite too many years away) and I will become a Citizen of an Independent Scotland.

When it happens I can honestly say that, other than the usual (ie birth of kids) nothing will give me greater pleasure.

Yes we are all citizens of the world, yes we need a modern internationalist agenda, yes Scotland (and EWNI) must be outward looking and open minded and remain interconnected with the world.  But I think the future lies with small, innovative, energetic countries with the skills, knowledge and ideas to set out its stall and contribute to the 21st century with pride in our past and self confidence in our future.

Now I'll sit down and have a nice cup of tea and calm down!
Aventinian

Dave Coull wrote:
Mind you, a Christmas can be perfectly "happy" without necessarily being particularly "merry". In fact, some folk might be "happier" with less "merriment".


Ah, you must be a Presbyterian.
agentmancuso

Aventinian wrote:
Dave Coull wrote:
In fact, some folk might be "happier" with less "merriment".


Ah, you must be a Presbyterian.


Laughing

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