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| Cymro |
Scottish Government Name ChangeIt seems the Scottish Executive is to be renamed"Scottish Government /Riaghaltas na h-Alba" I've read the story on the BBC's Welsh Language News site, but can't come across the story in English on the BBC Scotland sites at all 
Certainly an important step in giving the Gaelic language status it deserves and can help lead in a small way to people stoping thinking of it as being an inferior language in some way. Apparently Government Buildings will also feature this change. |
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| iainmhor |
Good news. Of course the dropping of the symbols of the crown and the bilingual use of Scottish Government isnt something that the EBC and rest of the brit media want to focus on. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Cymro |
I wouldn't blame the BBC as a body - I easily came across it on the Welsh BBC site, unfortuantly I'd imagine it's probably got more to do with the attitudes of individuals within the BBC in Scotland "why would none Gaelic speakers want to know about the Gaelic language?" | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| The Lithgae Jambo |
Re: Scottish Government Name Change
The revised name was adopted just over a month ago. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6974798.stm |
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| agentmancuso |
Re: Scottish Government Name Change
Does anyone think of it as an inferior language? |
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| SLG |
Yes, there are people who think that Agent. Just look at the forums on the Scotsman or Herald whenever there is a Gaelic related story. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Cymro |
Yes, all languages in the UK appart from the English tend to be seen by many as inferior languages. This is partly what leads to them becoming minority languages in their own lands. People think "no point with Gaelic/Welsh/Irish/Cornish/Manx as English is the language to get on in the world. Unfortuatly as a whole the UK still tends to have a monoglot mindset - it's one language or the other, where as being biligual is an increasing 'norm' beyond the UK. Being bilingual has never stunted me anyway!
Putting the Gaelic on Scottish Government buildings in a small way will lead to people seeing that speaking Gaelic isn't a negative thing, and that the language does rightly have some status in its own land - not enough on its own but certainly a step forward. |
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| agentmancuso |
I know that there are people who think it an irrelevant language. (I am not one of them). But I've never heard anyone describe it as inferior. |
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| agentmancuso |
I have never heard or read anyone suggest such a thing. Not in the past century anyway.
Languages do not have lands
They do. It is a shame perhaps, but it does not equate with thinking any of these languages inferior.
I agree entirely with this point. No man can call himself educated who speaks in one tongue only. |
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| SLG |
I've heard it described as inferior in the sense that it is not widely spoken and therefore a lesser language - if it was a better language, more people would speak it. I guess that's what you mean by irrelevant though.
The other point people often make is regarding the number of English loan words and lack of established technical and scientific terminology etc. |
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| Cymro |
Suprised you've never heard of people regarding them as inferior. It's a sad thing that people do see it that way, and in a small way its something I'm trying to change through my work and my personal actions. People don't see a 'worth' to the language, though many think it's 'nice' (in the same way a picture of a dog on a tin of biscuits is nice) but don't see a worth in learning it or using it. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Babygael |
And the reason why they don't see it's worth?
In Germany for example, they see the worth of their language! Who caused the Scots to see themselves as something "Other than?" I'm not suggesting that Gaelic was THE language of Scotland, but it has very strong roots and is therefore part and parcel of Scottish heritage. More that that you have to ask your self who set out in the first instance to destroy the language and culture, particularly in the last century and why? 
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| agentmancuso |
Probably something to do with the fact that it's a language spoken by a tiny minority of people; people who all speak at least one other language.
Which language would that be? It is I suppose natural that speakers of any language value it. When only a tiny number speak it, only a tiny number will value it.
Nasty foreigners by any chance?
Gaelic is one of the languages of Scotland. At one time it was spoken by most Scots. Now it isn't. That's how it goes.
I don't have to ask myself anything: I'm not in the business of fermenting resentment against nasty foreigners. Gaelic declined partly as a result of steps taken by Scottish authorities in the middle ages, but mostly because individual speakers decided that, for themselves and their children, there was a better option on the table. An unfortunate choice maybe, but an understandable one, and one they were perfectly entitled to make. |
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| Cymro |
All the Celtic languages in Wales will have seen a demise through a whole load of different factors. No point blaming it all on the British State or the English neighbours, though without doubt attitudes of the British State in the past have played a huge part in the demise of all non English languages in the UK.
The biggest factor in 2007 though is certainly the attitudes of Mr and Mrs Joe Public towards the language. However AM, to claim only a small minority will value it because that is all that speak it is rubbish. A language is something which can be owned by more than merely those who speak it. That is what is largely responsible for a huge increase we've seen in Wales and elsewhere in people making an effort to learn minority language. I quite often come across people through my work who're learning Welsh "because we're Welsh and we should at least understand it", while many including my wife who aren't Welsh have also taken steps to learn it as they are in Wales. Gaelic belongs to all/parts of Scotland (descide for yourself which you want it to be). Non Gaelic speaks can take a responsibility for it in all sorts of ways. There just has to be the right political and social will on all levels to take responsibility for it. I'm certain if you went round expecially the traditional Gaelic areas that people would be pretty much in agreement that it shouldn't be allowed to die, whether they speak it or not. How people go about that then it obviously the contentious bit. Some of your posts seem to suggest to me that you are linking people trying to take action and responsibility for saving the language with in some way being Anti English when you make claims like "nasty foreigners". Personally I'd argue it is actually your attitude which has lead to a large part of the problem with the continued demise of the language. An attitude which leads to people thinking Gaelic is a nationalistic language and anti everyone else. After all it's rude for Gaelic speakers to speak Gaelic in a room if there are non Gaelic speakers there too isn't it. Gaelic = at least bilingual in my opinion. Most my life has to be carried out through the medium of English - when I call my Vodafone to deal with billing problems, when I call Sky to book a film, when I post messages on here etc, but I also make an effort to live a lot of my life through the medium of Welsh - when I'm in the pub, when I'm being served by the right people in Tescos or when I deal with a public body (if I'm lucky). Yes people can also speak English, but being able to speak Gaelic, or in the very least easily being able to go about learning how to speak it if you wish is something which should not only be accepted but activley encouraged before something which remains non only important to Scotland but the UK and Europe really does die. |
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| agentmancuso |
The attitude of the British authorities has been far less damaging to Gaelic than the attitude of many mediaeval and renaissance Scottish kings.
Not only in 2007, but in 1907 and 1807 and 1707 too.
Only a tiny majority of Scots have any discernible interest in Gaelic.
Good for them. I applaud their efforts.
A language belongs to the people who speak it.
Now do you think Babygael had nasty foreigners in mind in the post to which I replied or not?
In which case you haven't read my posts very closely. There is no such thing as 'a nationalistic language'; it is a stupid concept.
It may be construed as rude to deliberately exclude people from a conversation. It may not. Depends on the circumstances.
I agree. I would like that Gaelic survive. I dislike that xenophobes such as Babygael attribute its decline to nasty foreigners poisoning the wells. |
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| Cymro |
I wouldn't know. But the case still stands that the British Authorities have had a negative impast in parts of history on the Gaelic and other languages in the UK. Banning of Highland culture etc is one clear example.
True, but I'm talking about what the reason for the demise of the language today is. I don't know about you but I wasn't alive in 1707, 1807 or 1907.
On what basis do you claim that? Only a tiny minority would regard themselves as Gaelic speakers. But how are you able to tell that only these people actually have an interest in it?
Not only. It can also belong to those who live alongside it. Wales is now largely regarded as a bilingual country. If we kept its 'ownership' merely amongst us lucky enough to be able to speak it we'd be in a far worse position. If belongs to the land it lives in. Hence why it's important that non Gaelic speakers especially in the Gaelic areas learn the language.
Thats how it seems. It doesn't need to be an "Anti Other people" thing to speak Gaelic or to learn to speak Gaelic. One of the claims which has been most destructive for the Welsh language (and I'd guess Gaelic) is the suggeastion that it's insular to speak it, that it's only something those who want Scotland to be completely seperate to speak.
Who's delibretly excluding? It's perfectly correct for Gaelic speakers to speak Gaelic with other Gaelic speakers, in the same way French Speakers speak French with each other etc. I'd argue the ones who are in a Gaelic group of people but don't speak Gaelic are the ones excluding themselves. |
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| agentmancuso |
A perfectly valid reaction to military uprising all the same.
I don't think Gaelic is in demise at present, relatively speaking. In so far as it is, it is because speakers of that language choose to speak another one. Their choice.
From the absence of any visible expression of interest.
Not in any meaningful sense. Unless you count 'sentimentality towards' as 'possession of'. I don't.
No it doesn't. Cultural belongs to people. Not to land. Language is a cultural artifact.
You mean non-speakers should be compelled by the state to learn the language to fit in with the 'natives'?
Maybe so, but I've never claimed that.
She is an example of a particularly nasty volkisch streak of nationalism.
Er, that'll be the circumstances it's depending on. |
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| Cymro |
You serious? So in the event of a military uprising the banning of culture and language is perfectly acceptable. Better not give the Americans any ideas in Iraq!
The 2001 census clearly prooves you wrong in that respect.
So you know what most non Gaelic speakers especially in those areas regarded as 'Gaelic lands' are do you? Blimey, you're some guy!
A positive attitude, even in terms of "I wouldn't like to see it die" is still possession of the language. It's not enough on it's own to ensure the survivial of the language obviously, but it does show that people accept that it does have and deserves a presence in the life of that area.
No the geographic area is very important for language and culture. Obviously it's people that ensure its survival, but as far as I'm concerned the Welsh language is important part of Wales as well as being an important part for Welsh speakers. Hence why we are now in a situation, despite the attempts of those with negative attitudes towards the language to make it a "them and us" thing. It's this that has almost single handedly lead to people taking steps to learn the language as adults and for non Welsh speaking parents sending their children to Welsh medium schools. In many parts of Wales the vast majority of parents of children who attend Welsh medium schools are non Welsh speakers.
People who live in an area should be given every opportunity to learn Gaelic. Schools in certain areas should teach Gaelic to a fluent level alongside the English language.
I never said you had. I was merely drawing attention to attitudes which have lead to the demise of certain languages. Bringing Nationalism into it has long been a tactic of those against minority languages in the UK.
Though it suits you and others to use people who hold these sort of opinions as definitive proof of the attitudes of those who are fighting for the language it doesn't do the subject any favours. I've long heard myself and others being called all sorts of names for campaigning for more rights towards Welsh speakers. At the end of the day it's the idiots trying to call us fanatics etc for the actions of others who look foolish.
And most circumstance it won't be delibretly excluding. If I was to exclude someone I could do it in all sorts of ways before the use of my choice of language. It's paranoia which leads to people thinking "they are all speaking another language. How rude". f**k people like that. Can't be doing with them. I'll always try and keep people in conversations that have something to do with them. If they start thinking that I am using my language to keep them out though that is their problem. As I said, it's them that are excluding themselves. |
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| agentmancuso |
Certain vested interests, in the attempt to overthrow parliamentary rule and replace it by absolute monarchy, started a civil war, in which they based their appeal on the cultural trappings of a minority group, and drew much of their support from that minority group. It can come as no surprise when that cultural group are singled out for a kicking later on.
Which respect?
I know that ,if they have any such interest, they do a decent job of keeping it to themselves.
No it isn't. Possession of a language cannot be distinguished in any intelligible way from the ability to communicate in that language. Sentimentality counts for nothing.
Languages cannot deserve anything. Only people can deserve things.
Maybe. That has nothing to do with the language belonging to the land. Land cannot have possessions. Only humans have possessions.
It's an inportant part of your conception of the identity of Welshness. That's a human concept, and exists only in the human head.
Good for them. We seriously considered sending our son to a Gaelic-medium nursery locally.
I agree.
That maybe so, but as for many others Nationalism is the main (or sole) interest in promoting minority languages the point is redundant.
It suits you to ignore the fact that many people who express sentimentality towards minority languages have no real interest in the language per se but are keen to use it as a vehicle to establish and promote 'difference'.
So I'm a know-it-all for detecting no visible interest in Gaelic amongst most (non-facepainting) Scots, but you have inside knowledge of countless thousands of private conversations. Hmm.
It's paranoia which leads people to make wildly emotive and sentimental claims about language. |
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| SLG |
Gaelic was not a minority language at that time. |
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| agentmancuso |
In the eyes of the people who were manipulating Gaelic identity for their own ends - i.e. to forment civil unrest - it was a minority language. |
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| Cymro |
If I was to say "Welsh is going to die tomorrw because of the English". I'd be talking through my arse. But to claim that the "Gaelic language is being eroded and is in serious danger and it deserves to be preserved" is not paranoia, it's facing up to a real danger. |
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| agentmancuso |
I agree. But that does not mean that every pro-Gaelic statement is necessarily a sensible one, or that any pro-Gaelic legislation is necessarily acceptable. |
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| Cymro |
I never said they where. It was you though that used BG's comments to attack what others where saying. I never claimed no one else shared her opinions. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| agentmancuso |
No, but you leapt to her defence, despite the fact that she was, as usual, talking sub-racist gibberish. You did so because BG appeared to taking a 'pro-Gaelic' position. Hence illustrating my last point. |
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| Cymro |
I certainly did not leap to her defence. I happen to feel that she comes to her conclusions through an increadibly simplistic way. The reason I replied was to draw attention to your failure to understand the subject not to support her comments. |
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| agentmancuso |
It is her conclusions themselves that are simplistic, not the route she takes to get there.
I understand the subject perfectly well thank you. |
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| Cymro |
It didn't come across like that. You where using BGs comments as some sort of definitive proof of certain peoples attitudes within the language movement. I wqhole hearltedly disgree with her comments also your attempt at terrin g us all with the same brush. I also disagree with several other assertions you've made here. |
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| agentmancuso |
I don't remember saying that BG was a typical minority language activist. I don't remember saying that BG was a typical nationalist either. But she is representative of what you might call the ugly wing of both communities; one of my biggest concerns with nationalism is the willingness of the moderates to tolerate (i.e. indulge) the opinions of the ugly wing because they are 'on the same side'. It's a bit unfair to say you disagree with other assertions I've made without giving me the chance to defend (or disown) them! |
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| Cymro |
You certainly implied it. You say I defended BG because I saw her as being pro Gaelic. Your where far from the truth with that comment, you assumed. In the same way you've given a lot of attention to the comments of one person. It's all well now saying she's representative of the ugly wing of these causes but what does that say? That not every Gaelic campaigner or Nat is the same? Not exactly ground breaking stuff! . You are being far from the truth to say that people are willing to tolerate these people. A person is entitled to voice an opinion in any political debate. However people would be more than happy to argue with them from my experiences. We could be all night debating the 'ugly wing' or unionists and those who don't believe in preserving Gaelic. Would be a bit daft though. |
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| agentmancuso |
Where?
Yes.
Possibly yes, but that's the point of this forum isn't it? 
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| Cymro |
As a Welsh Nationalist and a campaigner for the Welsh language both through my work and voluntarily I can assure you people holding racist or xenophobic views aren't 'accepted'. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| kevin04 |
I think there is a fair amount of interest Scottish gaelic in Scotland, maybe not in Glasgow or Edinburgh but esp the areas of where I'm from Angus and beyond.
In high school - our rector gave us a survery to fill out about classes, teachers, etc and one of the questions "which language would you like to be able to learn at high school?" Gaelic wasn't even on the list but the rector told us the results and that over 100 students put Gaelic down as a language they wanted to learn. Over 100students in a School of 1000 to me is 10% have an interest in it, I was speaking to a few friends at the wekeend about schooling and my friend dani said to me he got 4s and 5s for German as he basically had no interest in it - German is probably a more useful langauge to learn on the worldstage but what my pal is saying that he's proud of heritage, culture and roots of his country and he wanted to learn that language instead of being told "sorry pal, French or German?" The thing is some places just don't have the facilites to teach Gaelic which is sad, I met a lad from Butt of Lewis who was a Gaelic teacher and told him I was from Carnoustie and that I know of at least 5people who are interested in learning and I know 2people who can talk the language but the nearest classes are some 35miles away in Cowdenbeath or so |
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| SLG |
That's encouraging that there is such an interest in your area Kev. I think with learning a language, especially beyond a certain age, you really need to be motivated. It's less encouraging when there is a demand to learn that cannot be met. I'm sure there will be speakers in your area, it's just finding out about them and persuading them to help those of you who want to learn. Most Gaels I've met have been very keen to pass on the language even if in a very informal way rather than classes. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||