scottish independence problem

sam keir · scottish independence problem

although i long for scotland to be free i very much dout that the british government will alow us to be free. they would simply send the army in, though im more than willing to stand up aginst them i dont think an unarmed 16 year old will be able to hold them off for long. does anyone have any idea how to stop them? peaseful (or otherwise)

Rinty · h

Wear veils, that should frighten them off Laughing

Kendomacaroonbar · Re: scottish independence problem

sam keir

i suppose..... but they just shoot me for being a terrorist

sam keir

two of what

Kendomacaroonbar

Kendomacaroonbar

sam keir

no problem i have 1 nationalist republican friend

sam keir

oh the one when edward sends hudreds of men after 1 scotsmen ad 1 man comes back and says its an ambush theirs 2 of them

Rinty · t

You're not that wee bloke that petrol bombed the councill offices are you?

sam keir

no i would have used gunpowder

sam keir

or semtex

Firefox

Most "real" freedom fighters would probably give you a bollocking for discussing actions like this in a public place. (because apparently MI5 have computers as well...)

Seriously though, I'd recommend you join a political party especially one of the more radicals ones like the SSP or Solidarity. You CAN join the SNP if you want, but you'll spend the next ten years delivering leaflets. At least with the Reds you can get yourself arrested outside Faslane.

There's irony in there somewhere...

Firefox · Re: t

sam keir

i dout mi5 would take me seriosly. i personally dont take myself seriously. and i dont hink punching a tank is an offence

Firefox

sam keir

i know

Avatar

"You're not that wee bloke that petrol bombed the councill offices are you?"

Laughing

azzuri · Re: scottish independence problem

sam keir

Cado

That'll be tough, the British Army in the UK presently comprise the Chelsea Pensioners and a Regimental Goat.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/justthejob/takeitfromme/star_shenkin.shtml

He definitly appear to be on good form...... his music choice does lead me to question his 'orientation'..hhmmmm... Confused

I'll wager a tenner on the goat. Very Happy

SLG

livier

livier

Oh, and I have a question, what would be 'Vive le Québec libre' in Gaelic and in Scots?
And what do you lot say for 'Vive l'Écosse libre' in english?
For my personal culture.
Ta!

Corby Boy

I cannot see a future invasion of Scotland, particularly when there is a process of disengagement going on in N Ireland after years of conflict.

If all democratic processes had been gone exhausted, and the majority of Scots wanted independence after that, then no civilised, western democracy like England/Wales or England on its own could contemplate sending troops in undemocratic manner. It may be acceptable to some, for sending troops into Iraq, but certainly not in Europe and their own backyard. (Unless of course Scotland decides to become a war mongering despotic state on independence - nah, I don't think so).

Dave Coull

"Let's see who, of Quebec or Scotland, will be the first sitting at the UN" ?

That is a complete no-contest.

Scotland will be independent LONG before Quebec.

Reasons for this :

(1) Scotland has a long history as an independent kingdom

(2) Quebec is merely the remnants of the French colony of Canada.

(3) There is no "language problem" in Scotland. While Gaelic and Scots will both be encouraged, nobody who has any chance of getting into power in Scotland is going to try to force any language down our throats.

(4) Quebec has a HUGE language problem. Not only does
the enforcement of French speaking cause resentment amongst
the two million native Quebeckers who are English-speakers, it also causes major problems for immigrants to Quebec. Immigrants to
Scotland find it much easier to fit in.

(5) Scotland has clear, well-defined, and undisputed borders.

(6) Quebec's boundaries are certain to be disputed in any bid
for independence.

(7) Scotland has a population which is remarkably homogenous by international standards. There is no "Six Counties", or even five,
or four, or even one, there is no region of Scotland which will
seek to 'opt out' if the nation as a whole chooses independence.

( Cool

In Scotland, while we have strong regional identities, there are no native national minorities with their own national territories. In Quebec,
there are twelve different native-Canadian ("red indian" and "eskimo")
nations with their own national territories.

(9) All twelve of the native-Canadian groups of Quebec have made it clear that, while they can just about put up with French rule while Quebec is part of Canada, they will secede from an independent Quebec. The territorial claims of the twelve native-Canadian groups that say they will secede from an independent Quebec amount to over fifty percent of the land area of Quebec.

(10) Quebec has already had numerous referendums in which independence lost. Even if there should be a referendum in which
the independence option should win, this is certain to be hotly disputed. By contrast, we in Scotland have not had a single referendum, but,
when we do finally get one, independence will win easily, and this will
be accepted without dispute by the unionist minority, for the simple reason that they are, first and foremost, Scots.

Avatar

"(7) Scotland has a population which is remarkably homogenous by international standards. There is no "Six Counties", or even five,
or four, or even one, there is no region of Scotland which will
seek to 'opt out' if the nation as a whole chooses independence."

Well you never know there is still one Tory MP kicking about, must be some whacko brits hanging around there that would want to remain with the UK - imagine how bad that would look at the UN - the united kingdom of England, Southern Scotland, Northern Ireland and South West Wales. But yeah I cant imagine they would try to partition Scotland though.

"(Cool In Scotland, while we have strong regional identities, there are no native national minorities with their own national territories. In Quebec,
there are twelve different native-Canadian ("red indian" and "eskimo")
nations with their own national territories. "

There are the folks from Shetland and Orkney, although im sure they do see themselves as Scottish - im sure they have their own national Identity for their islands aswell.

Dave Coull

Well there might be some whacko Brits who would want to remain with the UK, but my point is, there isn't any REGION of Scotland dominated by such whacko Brits. There's no "Six Counties", or five, or four, or even one. Both protestants and catholics in Scotland support independence, both protestants and catholics in Scotland are against independence, both protestants and catholics can be don't-knows, and both protestants and catholics can easily change their minds: none of this applies to Northern Ireland. In Ulster, people cannot even agree about calling themselves "Irish". In Scotland, even unionists say they are Scots first and foremost.
They will accept the decisive referendum vote for independence which is a virtual certainty.

The Orkneys and Shetlands might want a significant degree of self-rule,
but they will vote for an independent Scotland. They won't want rule
from London, and they won't want to separate from Scotland.

Scotland really is much further along the road to independence than Quebec. Also, on the 1st of March 2001 I placed a bet that Scotland would be independent within ten years, and that this would be BEFORE Ireland was united. I remain totally confident of winning that bet.

Avatar

Aye easy money Wink

IF Convenor

You might "win" the bet, Dave, but I doubt if you'll get that bottle of whisky. Not unless your opponent made some provision in his will.

Dave Coull

Our I.F. convenor wrote "You might 'win' the bet, Dave, but I doubt if you'll get that bottle of whisky. Not unless your opponent made some provision in his will." - Sadly, that is true. He didn't live long enough to celebrate losing the bet. Come to think of it, there is no certainty that I will live long enough to celebrate winning it. That's the trouble with placing a ten-year bet.

SLG

I'm sure our independence will be prize enough Dave Smile

agentmancuso

Avatar

"I take it by '"real" freedom fighters' you mean drug dealers?"

Ive never thought of drug dealers that way before but I suppose they are.

Dave Coull

"Agentmancuso" wrote (in response to "Firefox")

I take it by '"real" freedom fighters' you mean drug dealers?

and "Avatar" commented

"Ive never thought of drug dealers that way before but I suppose they are"

Okay, I confess myself to being totally baffled by this turn of the discussion. "Firefox", "Agentmancuso", and "Avatar" are all clearly pen-names, or should that be keyboard-names. I'm new on this forum and I know nothing about the holders of any of these pseudonyms.
While being completely baffled by this strange line of discussion, which
I suppose could be some sort of in-joke that I don't understand, just
in case the topic of discussion is serious, I have to say that personally,
I certainly don't consider drug dealers to be freedom fighters.

Avatar

Well they are fighting in a sense for peoples freedom to take illegal drugs.

Dave Coull

No, drug dealers aren't fighting for freedom. A dealer is somebody
who conducts deals. Transactions. At the top of the drug-dealing
pyramid are some very large scale dealers indeed, and even
a small-scale dealer gets the products they sell from some
larger-scale dealer, paying either in cash or in kind or in credit.
They then seek to recoup the capital which they have invested,
plus making a nice profit, by selling. They aren't fighting for anything,
they're just conducting their business. They have a vested interest
in increasing the market for their wares. Although dealers in illegal
drugs obviously can't advertise legally, they can and do seek to make
their products and the lifestyle associated with them seem 'cool'.
It is possible that posing as "freedom fighters" could be one form
of advertising.

SLG

Well I know people (or used to anyway!) who would be classed as dealers, yet never profitted from selling drugs, but dealt to friends who didn't have access.

Avatar

"No, drug dealers aren't fighting for freedom. A dealer is somebody
who conducts deals. Transactions. At the top of the drug-dealing
pyramid are some very large scale dealers indeed, and even
a small-scale dealer gets the products they sell from some
larger-scale dealer, paying either in cash or in kind or in credit.
They then seek to recoup the capital which they have invested,
plus making a nice profit, by selling. They aren't fighting for anything,
they're just conducting their business. They have a vested interest
in increasing the market for their wares. Although dealers in illegal
drugs obviously can't advertise legally, they can and do seek to make
their products and the lifestyle associated with them seem 'cool'.
It is possible that posing as "freedom fighters" could be one form
of advertising."

Still these are people taking risks to provide you with the choice to buy something you wouldn't normally be able to, so they are providing you with a freedom whether its for their profit or for altruistic reasons like SLG pointed out.

Aventinian

Avatar

The moral position is irrelevant imo, if someone hijacks a plane and crashes it into Tony Blair so he can get laid with 100 virgins or whatever, it isn't going to make him less of a "freedom fighter" in the eyes of some folk, or another example could be a dog thats trained to rescue people from burning fires - the dog doesn't have a clue what its doing or why, but im sure people would still regard the dog as a hero. Your not a fan of Ayn Rand are you? Wink

Aventinian

Oh dear Lord no. She may have broadly shared a political platform with me, but Ayn Rand was a bit of a nutter by all accounts.

Babygael

Ave honey, ony political platform (broad or otherwise) that yew get oan cannot possible spik for fowk whit hev their country ALBA at heart. "cause why? Yer ae wannabe engerlish,KMA PLEEZE!! suck UP!!

Dave Coull

Aventinian wrote "It's a bit like saying my refrigerator is an advocate for the right to life because it stores my food at a reasonable temperature for me. It doesn't intend to advocate anything of the sort." - good point. Somehow or other (I'm not exactly clear about how it happened) the subject of drug dealers came up, and somebody said they could be compared to freedom fighters. But even if there are _some_ drug dealers who are passionate about the "freedom" to get hooked on illegal drugs, this isn't true of ALL drug dealers. It's like saying all criminals are in favour of crime. They aren't. Some criminals are in favour of _some_ crimes, but against others (look at how some prisoners in jail have to be segregated to protect them from the righteous indignation of other prisoners). And there are plenty of criminals who are against ALL crime. They commit crime, but they do not approve of it. There are probably some drug dealers who hate themselves for what they do. So to compare drug dealers, in general, with freedom fighters, is complete nonsense. The only generalisation you can make about drug dealers is that they deal in drugs.

IF Convenor

My guess is the alleged connection between Northern Irish paramiltaries and the drugs trade in the province is what is being alluded to.

Avatar

I agree the term is a bit general but generally we deal in generalisations so it doesn't really make the claim invalid

"But even if there are _some_ drug dealers who are passionate about the "freedom" to get hooked on illegal drugs, this isn't true of ALL drug dealers. "

See generalisation implying illegal drugs are all addictive, but your claim is still valid.

"My guess is the alleged connection between Northern Irish paramiltaries and the drugs trade in the province is what is being alluded to."

Yeah I think agentmancuso was having a dig at them.

agentmancuso

Cado

Dave Coull

Dave Coull

Cado wrote "Welcome! To the (presently) free world and society that is cyberspace and brace yourself for some perspective altering experiences.....no chemicals required". - I have been a member of the anarchy-list ( anarchy-list@lists.anarchylist.org ) for the past twelve years.
I may learn _some_ new things from being on this Our Scotland forum,
but as for the freedom of cyberspace and perspective altering experiences with no chemicals required, been there, done that, got the tee-shirt.

scottish independence problem

h

Re: scottish independence problem

t

Re: t

Re: scottish independence problem