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| SLG |
Scottish Olympic TeamWill the Union collapse if Scotland has a separate Olympic team?
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=782722007#comments |
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| Economist |
I think it would be a fantastic idea, but I don't see it happening outside independence. I can't see the IOC agreeing to it, because, if they did it would open the floodgates to all autonomous nations and territories applying - Catalonia. Bavaria, Corsica and everywhere else. Having said that, the IOC really aren't in any position to bang on about consistency when there are already plenty of non-independent entities that are currently members. | ||||||||||||||
| Aventinian |
I'm incredible disappointed that Alex Salmond's first high profile act as first minister has been to advocate tribalist nonsense which is embarrassing the whole population amongst our fellow Britons. I hoped he'd grown up a bit more than that.
As Economist points out, the Olympics is a contest of countries - not regions, no matter what self-important status they wish to give themselves. Scotland has no more right to send a team than the state of Texas does. But on the consistancy point: I believe the IOC allows for non-incorporated territories to send their own teams. Either way, I think the Olympics is a lot of crap. I don't pay any attention to it. |
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| Economist |
How exactly is it tribalist nonsense, for Scotland to consider sending its own team, independent or otherwise?
If that is the case, then surely it is tribalist nonsense to send a British team, for an Australian team to compete, for a Latvian team to compete, for a Hong Kong team to compete (they aren't independent) and so on. Perhaps, the British, if they wanted to, should not compete in the Olympics, to show they are above such tribalism. I don't think the Olympics would be seriously denuded by that happening - in fact they may be improved by the lack of British representation. And all the other markers of British tribalism can go at the same time - the God Awful Union flag, the Monarchy, Parliament, Britishness, British Nationality and all the rest. After all, they are just tribal markers. |
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| Aventinian |
It's a contest of countries. Whether I agree with the concept of statehood or not, I acknowledge Britain's position. The SNP is simply attempting to create conflict because they don't like anything British.
Tribalism is perfectly acceptable. The state endorsing it, however, is not. I still may well fly a tribal flag or wear tribal clothing, that's my choice. I accept that, in my private business, I'm neither entirely logical or without flaw. Although how you manage to conclude institutions like Parliament are tribal is beyond me. |
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| agentmancuso |
Because this has nothing to do with sport, as is made amply clear by the wholesale rejection of the idea by various Olympic medal winners. The specific purpose of this tribal demagoguery is to portray Gordon Brown as 'anti-Scottish'. Not a good start. |
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| SLG |
You are assuming that these individuals have no political agenda of their own.
Perhaps. More importantly, it is a populist policy that none of the Unionist parties would ever put forward. Brown doesn't need to be anti-Scottish here. He could say, yes, lets put it out to a real consultation. Let's see what the people of Scotland, the athletes etc think about it and make a decision based on that. He won't though. Because his tribal demagoguery won't allow that. |
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| Economist |
You see it as that, but primarily it is a contest of athletes. I'm not a fan of sporting or competitive "Britishness" (and that from someone who has represented the United Kingdom in an Olympics - but not of the sporting variety  ), but in many different sporting fora, Scotland is represented on its own, outside the UK with little or no conflict.
It may come as a surprise to you, but I don't accept the notion of the state endorsing tribalism, either. In fact, I think that will be one of the major advantages of an independent Scotland - a much more open, inclusive society and tolerant of differences than British tribalism - sorry - has ever been in its vainglorious past.
Or a statement of the bleeding obvious, in other words.
I said they were markers of tribalism, which quite clearly they are.
What about the support by people in Scotland, which I believe shows a great deal of support for such a proposal?
Sorry but that is just too nonsensical to justify any response. |
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| agentmancuso |
And what would that be?
Yes, exactly, as Salmond knows full well. But the fact that Salmond is so impatient to make political capital out of Brown's ridiculous 'British' posturing is what worries me. |
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| agentmancuso |
It may well be about populism, but it's not about sport.
Why?. In his unsightly hurry to appease the Tory shires Brown will no doubt make a complete mess of this, and Salmond will waste no time in pointing out how badly Scotland is treated. You don't seriously think Salmond gives a toss about the Olympics do you? |
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| SLG |
They wish Scotland to remain in the Union. Might not be the case for all of them, but equally, could be a factor.
Well that's politics. It is also the hole that Brown has dug for himself. At the end of the day Salmond is one MSP (albeit FM) who leads a minorty Exec. I wouldn't expect anything less than to be pushing the boundaries. The SNP have done that all along. It's up to the rest of the Parliament and the London establishment to catch up. |
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| azzuri |
Rightly or wrongly, I believe that a Scottish Olympic team will inspire kids to get out and be active in a way that the British team doesn't.
Purely on the numbers thing, Scotland would have better representation at the Olympics and more focused TV and media coverage of these athletes' acheivements. Whether they'd actually be better or win anything is irrelevant, more Scots competing would encourage the younger generations to take up the same activities as the guy/girl who lives down the street as them. In the short-term I think that Scotland would suffer due to the lack of facilities, but long-term I believe Scottish athletics and sport would be the better for it. |
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| Aventinian |
I think quite the opposite. Back during my school days and at university, representing Scotland at some sport or other was insignificant - it didn't really indicate you were in any way exceptional. Representing Great Britain was an actual honour, one which was well recognised. |
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| Aventinian |
I'm afraid I can't make the logical jump for you to be a member of a movement which is entirely opposed to your political beliefs. It's rather like being a pacifist and advocating mass war in order to eliminate the possibility of it. I can see how you might then advocate destroying the British state on these grounds, I'd say that'd be extremist and unhelpful to the eventual ends, but replacing it with a more tribalist state? Ridiculous, especially in an age when far more opportunities are open to us: EU federalism, for example. |
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| George |
I can only think that you have a strange thought process or simply disagreeing with the poster because of this politics. I think that even the most ardent Unionist would accept that having increased representation at high profile events would encourage youngsters. Goodness, even off of the top of my head I can think of the increased profile that tennis has had in Scotland due to Murray and the increase in Scottish youngsters taking the game up.
Representing Scotland is insignificant? but representing great britain is an honour? Both are honours surely? Making it into the GB team will generally be more difficult, so perhaps more of an achievement....but an honour? I mean......come on. |
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| Aventinian |
It's not the event, particularly when there's not much chance of success, but rather the representing. Plus, Scotland already has teams for such matters - in the Commonwealth Games.
Yes, perhaps both are pleasant, but only one is particularly significant. It seemed everyone and his dog had represented Scotland at something sporting back in the day |
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| mairead |
Economist. I fully endorse your comments. Time we were well out of the shadow and encouraging our own youngsters and my oh my, maybe we'll actually get some proper facilities up here.
Britain is on a slippery slope now and it will slide all the way eventually. I would rather represent my country and fail than represent Britain in anything. I am NOT British, I am SCOTTISH. The anglophiles on here have not yet understood that as far as the majority of the English are concerned, Britain is England and will always be seen as such. Just a wee example. In Football. The Scottish cup is known as the Scottish cup while the English cup is known as THEE CUP, not the English cup. Associations. England again is THEE FOOTBALL ASSOCIATION, not the English Football association. Scotland is the Scottish football association. The weather. Today THEE country will be dry, wet, warm etc. meanwhile in Scotland and of course the obvious, YES, It's a win for Britain when a Scot wins and then, The Scotsman/woman didn't quite make it. Just a couple of wee examples which irk me no end but they are disguised put downs none the less. |
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| Aventinian |
And the vast majority of people don't think in those terms. So there we go, I don't see why we should have to cater for your particular extreme identity crisis.
Largely because they were the first and are big enough not to have to worry about the other groups. It's hardly relevant.
Nonsense, no weather reporter would speak in such terms. The country means the UK.
Victim mentality nonsense. Explain Andrew Murray - despite representing Great Britain at almost every event, he's most often referred to as Scottish. I've heard this from Nationalists before, and frankly it's a load of crap. |
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| Corby Boy |
Aventinian,
I will take issue with your last comment on Andy Murray. Down here in England, he is almost always referred to as British number 1 ... Andy Murray. Or Britains, top tennis player ... Andy Murray. More so than his Scottish status. I think Mairead makes some valid points about the media. I am no anti-English person, I live here and was born here. But as I have said before I am Anglo-Scottish as opposed to British. One of the many reasons for this distinction, is the poor recognition of Scotland's (and Wales for that matter) position in the present union set up in popular culture, throughout the British popular media and the obvious London, England bias. I am no Xenophobe on this, and some Scots nationalists get too hung up on it, but you cannot deny it exists, to do so is being somewhat of an Ostrich. |
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| Rinty |
I think it is a good move by Salmond. What he is doing is putting the debate on independence into terms outside of politics and economics. This, in my opinion, will lead to the debate being wider and placed in contexts that people would actually discuss in homes and pubs, unlike fiscal economy. | ||||||||||||||
| Corby Boy |
On the subject in hand - olympic team. Nothing wrong in Alex promoting this approach - after all he represents a national party and is not therefore divorced from the concept in question.
The only issue I would have, is if it cost loads to apply for this. If not then there is nothing wrong with a symbolic jesture such as this as we all know it is unlikely to happen, but is a good way never the less to get the issue on the political landscape. Salmond would be better judged long term is if he spends Holyrood's budget wisely on projects that will benefit the lot of the Scottish population at large. |
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| Corby Boy |
Rinty - great minds think alike! | ||||||||||||||
| mairead |
Aventinian.
there is nowt wrong with my mentality. I somehow do doubt yours on occasion though. The usual lengthy words but with little in the way of actual content. You obviously don't listen to the same weather forecasters as I do. If by the country they mean Britain, why the do they say ' Today the country will see plenty of etc...meanwhile, up in Scotland there will be.... while over in Wales etc, and Northern Ireland will see some ....etc. You should try to HEAR what you listen to my friend. That way you might even learn something. And yes, Andy Murray is 'Britain's hero, well at least while he's on top then he'll become just another Scot. By the way, In spite of your opinions of me and my mentality, I am an educated person, but, unlike yourself, I speak plainly and try not to confuse people with extensive dialgue. I also trained in psychiatry and psychology, and I have several degrees , I assure you I am no numpty, so get yourself off that high horse before you fall.. |
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| Economist |
I think it is. As has been reiterated before, it would inspire a lot more children in Scotland to take an interest in sport. The Commonwealth Games gave a great boost to sport in Scotland, in a way that the Olympics don't seem to have done
That's almost a tacit admission that the Tory shires are "anti-Scottish", maybe they are, but if Gordon Brown wants to appear anti-Scottish, he doesn't need Alex Salmond encouraging him from the sidelines - it would be pretty visible to almost all but the most blinded of Unionists.
No he doesn't. He probably does care about Scottish participation in the Olympics though, even if it is just from a purely personal perspective. |
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| Economist |
That's fine Aventinian, I don't need you to make any logical jumps for me. I understand that peddling your own militant political tribalism on these forums (in concert with agentmancuso) might make it difficult to open your mind to the persuasions of other people. For all the ranting and raving about tribalism I'm not about to fit into some kind of set ideological structure - whether it be liberalism or nationalism or anything else. Political tribalism, in other words.
No, I said Scotland would be less of a tribalist state, it certainly has the capacity to be. All it would mean is a few more open minds, accepting people for what they believe in and not trying to undermine them at every turn. |
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| Economist |
I fully agree. I'm sure, even the most hardened sceptic would see that a Scottish athlete performing well, for Scotland, will have more of an effect on our young people more than anyone else. That I would imagine is the case in places like Canada, England, Australia, Italy, the US and everyone else - and isn't just limited to Scotland. |
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| Aventinian |
It's impossible to battle this victim mentality. It's a load of nonsense. Do you seriously think that the BBC ignores their over-inflated racial equality rules and only signs up people who are English nationalists? Really?
I couldn't care less how 'educated' you are, unfortunately the present education system doesn't teach you how to think. I doubt the particularly great philosophers of our age go around broadcasting how many degrees they have, as you seem to. |
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| Aventinian |
The Olympics haven't been held in Britain for decades, and won't be again for five years . How exactly should they be motivating anybody in the same way as the Commonwealth Games - which often consider Scottish venues and have been held here recently (and probably will be again)? Competing in the Olympics is a great motivation to any sportsman.
For... oh... supporting the English football team on occasion... and...um... apparently letting his accent dilute like every other Scot in London... |
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| Aventinian |
Oh yes, I forgot about that other great logical leap that having a political opinion makes you somehow ideologically tribalist. Ha.
Nope, just consistancy. Which is what human beings require in order to behave morally.
No nation has any greater or lesser capacity for racism or nationalism than any other. That's a racist myth that has long since been debunked.
By... supporting Nationalism! Hurrah. You're right, you're not "politically tribal"... or "consistant" as others say. |
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| mairead |
LoL Aventinian,
As usual when stuck for anything intelligent to say, you pour out your scorn. Intelligent thinking is obviously not in your league either. No-one with a modicum of intelligence couold be so tunnel visioned as you. Insult me all you like, that's a pretty normalreaction from folk who have high opinion of themselves but not much else. |
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| Aventinian |
Stop shouting about how many degrees you have and make an intelligent comment and I might respect you to some degree. | ||||||||||||||
| mairead |
olympicsAnd since when did mentioning degrees on one occasion become shouting about degrees. The one occasion I mentioned that, was simply to point out to yourself that some of us are thinking people, because you constantly try to arrogantly dismiss others as being somehow lacking in intelligent thought.When you fail to make a point you become derisive of those who do not accept your word as law. Not many debating skills there. |
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| Aventinian |
Re: olympics
Well, I think Nationalism almost by definition is an absence of reason. However I certainly don't equate reasonableness to education or even intelligence.
That's because most posters here will say that black is white (the idea that Scottish independence is geographical for example... I mean really) to disguise their true motivations, or will even simply refuse to explore them within their own minds. I regularly take the time to mentally explore my own political and philosophical views. It's rather frustrating that the potentially most oppressive people can't or won't. |
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| kevin04 |
I would love to see a Scottish Olympic team but I cannot see this happening anytime soon unless we become an Independent country, I am sure I read an interview with a bigwig from the Olympics bosses saying this aswell,
I hope the SNP get on with running the country and doing a grand job and showing the Scots how well they can do and hopefully by the next election in 4years they can increase their majority to an area where a referendum can be held. |
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| mairead |
Aventinian,
Other posters will say Black is white? Geez man that's some statement coming from you. LoL Also if you don't think aunty EBC Sorry, BBC is biased, well that surely indicates just how biased you are. |
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| agentmancuso |
Re: olympics
Yes it is. Nationalism is the abandonment of reason in favour of an emotionalist attachment to an administrative category into which one falls by accident of birth. |
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| mairead |
Agentmancuso and Aventinian,
Are you two by any chance joined at the hip? or maybe the brain. I notice that neither of you indicate in your profile where you are from. Mind you, It would not be hard to guess. |
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| George |
Re: olympics
Actually only two.....or should that be one?
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| Holebender |
Re: olympics
You seem to be assuming that no-one could become a naturalised citizen of somewhere other than his/her place of birth. Whether you like it or not, the entire planet is currently divided up into states and the entire population currently falls into one of these states by accident of birth. All those Chinese are only Chinese by accident of birth. All those Italians are only Italians by accident of birth. All those British are only British by accident of birth. Explain to me why it is acceptable to be Chinese or Italian or British but unreasonable to be Scottish. |
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| Rinty |
Can we get back on subject please!
there are other threads dealing with the definition of nationalism alreday. This thread is about the olympics and whether Scotland should have its own team. |
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| azzuri |
Good point Rinty. | ||||||||||||||
| Aventinian |
Well I move around a lot within Scotland. "Home" is central belt area. No, we're certainly not joined at the hip. We are both Liberals in a certain sense, just like the rest of the posters here are Nationalists. Where we meet is in a belief that Nationalism is an affront to Liberty and good government. Mancuso is a Lib Dem and I'm a Tory for one.
Of course it's biased. Typically in favour of minorities, against the British Government and for the pseudo-left.
The existence of a problem elsewhere does not necessitate you making more on your doorstep.
I suppose in that case, most of the arguments have been put forward. Chiefly, it won't happen - it's like Alex Salmond demanding a UN seat for the Scottish Executive - he completely fails to realise (quite deliberately of course) the status of the Olympic Games as a competition for countries. The floogates point is also well-made - Scotland is no more entitled to be there than Catalonia, Texas, Flanders, Ontario or County Armagh. Trying to fundamentally alter the Olympics in such a direction would be unworkable, therefore calling for a Scottish Olympic team is, in effect, calling for the death of the Olympics. |
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| mairead |
What a lot of crap. How on earth could calling for a Scottish team possibly spell the end of the Olympic movement. Oh yes, probably the Brits would not want it so the rest of the world will fall into line.
Are you on medication for delusions or something? |
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| agentmancuso |
Re: olympics
No, of course not. Anyone can become a citizen of anywhere they like as far as I'm concerned. They only people who argue otherwise are, er, nationalists, afraid that their culture will become diluted by 'outsiders'.# (#outsiders: copyright Mairead)
I don't think it is unreasonable to be Scottish. I'm Scottish, and so's my wife. It is unreasonable - indeed completely illegitimate - to insist on any essential link between any attribute of one's own - in this case 'Scottishness' - and the attributes of the administrative machinery of the state. |
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| agentmancuso |
As I've said, we've never met, or corresponded in any way other than through this public forum. I do indicate a location in my profile, for what it's worth. And what does It would not be hard to guess mean exactly? |
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| Maol.Chaluim |
Scotland has a long history of fielding national teams in numerous sports, the most obvious example being football. Catalonia, Texas, Flanders, Ontario or County Armagh, on the other hand, don't. |
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| Maol.Chaluim |
Puerto Rico, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Bermuda and a few more have Olympic teams but are not independent countries. |
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| Aventinian |
I explained my reasons why perfectly adequately. Floodgates - if Scotland was to be admitted, then there'd be no reason not to admit everyone and their dog.
Mostly because these bodies, for example the footballing regulators, were invented in Britain. These are special privileges, which often the rest of the world has seemed enthusiastic to get rid of.
Not independent countries, but countries. They are non-incorporated territories and in that respect they are not 'part' of the country to which they are territories. Bermuda, for example, is not part of the United Kingdom. |
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| Maol.Chaluim |
Well done! Doesn't change the fact of the matter, however.
Aye, whatever you say, Av.... 
1. Taiwan is not a "non-incorporated territory". 2. Scotland is often refered to as a constituent country of the UK, not an independent country, but a country. Then again, that depends on how you wish to define the word "country" today. (Observers will note that this has been known to change in order to reinforce the particular argument to which it's being applied.) |
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| mairead |
Scotland is a COUNTRY and a NATION.
Ontario,Texas, Armagh, Flanders are regions, states or provinces WITHIN their espective countries. Thought even you might have known that. |
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| Babygael |
Aventinian and the like are so brain washed by the English that they no longer know where the hell they come from.Maybe this explains the likes of Blair N' Broon!
London times---1851 about the Irish....... It's present place will be occupied by the more mixed,more docile,and more serviciable race,which has long borne the yoke of sturdy industry in this Island,which can submit to a master and obey he law..... This is/was exactly the intention of the Foreign engerlish Invaders. Whether it be an African slave on a Plantation,the Scots/Irish. Whom ever stood in the way of their progress basically. Voila` I give you Aventinian and co. A fine example of engerlish brain washing down over the ages. Tsk! Tsk! |
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| George |
I agree, all too many otherwise excellent threads are ruined by the dreaded 'nationalism' argument. |
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| Aventinian |
Are you actually arguing this point? I thought it easily came under the heading of accepted fact and common knowledge. Indeed, it's the reason there is no GB Football team at the Olympics - well known. http://sport.independent.co.uk/football/scotland/article1813535.ece for example.
In effect, it finds itself in that position de facto. If you can find a credible de jure position for Taiwan then fire away - but nobody else seems able.
A peculiar British usage which came about as we have never had the foresight to give our regions a decent title. They're not real countries, and they don't have any more status than any other region, county, subdivision, province or territory of a country. |
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| Aventinian |
"Nation" is a meaningless and irrelevant label. Flanders and Texas arguably have far more cultural differences from other parts of their country than Scotland does. As for 'country' - no. Sometimes Scotland is called a constituent country, which is fair enough - it was a country that joined to constitute the UK. Anything else is simple British woolymindedness. I know you don't like to admit that Scotland is just like anywhere else, but I'm afraid it is. |
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| Aventinian |
As Agentmancuso once observed, I imagine most of the more credible Nationalists on this board cringe with every political post you make. |
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| azzuri |
There's been more than a few 'cringeworthy' unionists on this board Av.
Do you feel the same when posts like that appear? Just curious... |
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| Aventinian |
You'll have to remind me, I'm afraid... But in answer to your question, I probably die a little bit inside every time.
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| mairead |
I think most 'Credible' nationalists would agree with the sentiments of BabyGael amd anyway how do you define a 'credible' nationalist.
Do you mean credible as being compatable with your own views? Azziuri, great point you make there. |
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| George |
Highlander and 'Blackhead' spring to mind........don't know if 'Baloney Rubble' was a Unionist, he perhaps just hated the Scots.
You do realise that your leaving yourself open to 'suicide' jokes. |
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| Holebender |
Re: olympics
But "Scottishness" is only an attribute of being related in some way to Scotland. Chineseness is an attribute of being related in some way to China and that is equally true of a person from China and the administration of the territory. The government of China is Chinese. The people living in China are Chinese. This, I believe, is quite acceptable to you. On the other hand, it is somehow unacceptable to you that the government of Scotland should be Scottish. Why? |
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| Aventinian |
Just not a raving racist loony.
Blackleaf is an English nationalist, although he seems to prefer just winding you lot up these days. Highlander didn't have any extreme views and I often agreed with him.
I don't see how you could pull a joke, even in very bad taste, out of that. |
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