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| McDougall |
Scottish School Bans Anti-Abortion T-ShirtDateline: Scotland, EUBy: BBC News From: Drex at Anti-Misandry Via: The Honor Network Scottish School Bans Anti-Abortion T-Shirt Priority News Exchange Program News Item (PNEP)
For more of click: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/6252764.stm |
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| agentmancuso |
Quite right too. | ||||||||||||
| Aventinian |
Agreed. A school is no place for that sort of thing. | ||||||||||||
| doodells |
But as she says in the online BBC article, there were other pupils wearing playboy t-shirts. I'd be interested to know if either of you think a 'pro-choice' t-shirt is ok for kids to wear on a 'non-uniform' day? | ||||||||||||
| Aventinian |
Ha, of course not. As for Playboy, it is just a brand not a political statement. That said, in my day we wore shirts, ties and blazers to school, not T-shirts. If I was a Rector/Headmaster/etc, I certainly wouldn't allow any of it. |
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| agentmancuso |
No. Political slogans of any kind are inappropriate. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
the british army used to recruit in my school i thought that was overtly political. should that have been allowed? |
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| azzuri |
How is the British army recruiting in schools political? |
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| agentmancuso |
I don't think it's very appropriate, but when the state is in charge of the education system it will use it for its own ends. At any rate it's quite a separate issue from pupils wearing political statements. |
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| mairead |
I would have banned her from wearing it too. Banning apparell like this at schools does not inhibit her right to free speech. | ||||||||||||
| Bigfella |
What next, banning religious symbolism eh................ 
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| agentmancuso |
Good idea. |
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| Bigfella |
Well that the local Tim school buggered then! |
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| agentmancuso |
Good. |
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| Bigfella |
Ooooooh, not a fan of the Catholic faith then? |
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| parkhead_rfb |
they are signing up young people to go and fight in wars. if thats not a political action i dont know what is. its even more overtly political when they target schools like mine rather than ones in the wealthier areas. |
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| agentmancuso |
Not a fan of state-sponsored sectarian education. |
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| doodells |
I think its a little bit petty to ban such a t-shirt on a non-uniform day. Students should be encouraged to express their opinions. At least t-shirts with political slogans show that the bearer is able to form their own ideas about important issues. What harm did this t-shirt really cause?
Anyway Im all for headmasters making their own decisions on these issues, including religious clothing (the head-scarves debate) and other matters like banning sweets in an effort to curb obesity, so I suppose the headmaster here can do as they please. In my opinion, their decision was wrong and I consequently question there judgement in other areas. |
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| Bigfella |
Let me introduce you to my friend irony................. 
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| mairead |
I totally agree with agentmancuso. Until religious differences stop being emphasised in the education system we will never end sectarianism. Children go to school to be educated, not brainwashed into one religious faith or another. | ||||||||||||
| agentmancuso |
My friend Dead Pan squashes him every time. |
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| darkside |
exactly parkhead_rfb couldnt agree more, this there way of catching them young |
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| mairead |
Many private schools have their own cadet forces. | ||||||||||||
| parkhead_rfb |
i went to an rc school and i have many problems with the rc church. i never felt brainwashed by them though. |
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| Rinty |
but it's not just RC schools rfb.
Our whole school system is based on religious grounds. I would love to see a secular education system in Scotland. I believe that catholic parents would be less likely to push for their own schools in such circumstances. Non-denominational schools should be replaced by non-religous schools in my opinion. I agree with you on the brainwashing stuff though, that is nonsense. In many catholic schools now the majority of the pupils are non-catholic. It is also virtually impossible for a priest in Scotland to be able to get involved in the local school and there is as much or little specific religious stuff in RC schools as there is in ND schools. My mate recently retired as a geography teacher in an RC school. His kids went to the local ND school where he insists they saw more religion and ministers than he saw priests at his school. If we are going to talk about religion in schools we need to look at it in the whole and not concentrate on catholic schools. Friends of mine in Lancashire, England, have the choice of catholic, choir school, sports school, C of E or state schools. If catholic schools caused our sectarian problems it would be achoed everywhere there is catholic schools. If catholic schools were the problem we would have seen an increase in setarianism instaed of a decrease since they became state funded. The 200 odd state funded protestant schools in the Republic of Ireland dont seem to be breeding renewed hostility or sectarianism. But overall, religion should be discussed in schools as part of history, sociology etc but no religious instructions, dogma or services should be conducted in the schools name. If we want to treat all equally in schools we should treat every religion the same. Our current system gives undue prominence to the protestant denominations of the christian faith through ND schools. This in turn gives catholics ammunition to demand a separate provison rather than being shoe-horned into an ND school. Eradicating the religious nature of Scotland's state ND schools would mean that catholics could no longer claim that their school represented a balance and the argument for having them would disappear. |
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| agentmancuso |
In ND schools religious observation is a service at Easter and one at Christmas. Protestant churches have no say over employment opportunities. They have no say over curriculum content. Christianity has no more prominence in the curriculum than other world religions In RC schools, the curia dictate parts of the curriculum. They also discriminate against job applicants on religious grounds, which is a direct flaunting of European legislation. Christianity, in its Roman form, is openly promoted. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
what i find interesting rinty is that rc schools generally produce better results than "non denominational" schools yet no one ever seems to publicise why this is and what things could be copied elsewhere. all i ever hear is how they cause sectarianism as, as well as your other points anti catholic discrimination well pre dated the invention of rc schools. its like blaming a solution for the cause blaming rc schools for sectarianism. | ||||||||||||
| agentmancuso |
RC schools do not cause sectarianism. They preserve it. Without the twin evils of sectarian schooling and football clubs getting rich on bigotry the Catholic-Protestant split would have been consigned to history long ago. When was the last time anyone ever heard of Episcopalians and Presbyterians fighting - or even taunting- each other? The reason RC schools do 'better' is because, per capita, they have smaller schools, smaller classes and more teachers. Not deliberately, but because that's the inevitable result of making special provision for a sizeable minority. |
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| Aventinian |
Personally I'd rather we could religious schools and hope that people might actually be mature enough to learn to respect their differences.
I attended a school with a reasonably strong religious element and I believe its rituals and practices did a great deal to increase the sense of community and common purpose amongst the pupils. I was not at all religious at the time, but I still happily went along to chapel and enjoyed the side-effects of the faith. While this could probably be replicated in a secular environment, I know fine well it won't be. I simply don't see why religious observance can't be incorporated into schools in a manner that respects other faiths. It seems to work fine for universities. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
really? what about my own secondary which was in the media as one of the best in scotland relative to its area and pupil intake? the school was actually full to capacity due to the amount of people trying to enrol. as rinty has also pointed out a high number of rc school pupils are not from rc backgrounds at all. i think you may be confusing the rc situation in england with that in scotland where the intake processes and funding are totally different. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
as for the football clubs comments celtic fans group the green brigade actually recently did a banner with the slogan "michael davitt: sod the bigots". the message being that davitt, a protestant, was also an irish nationalist and laid the first turf at celtic park in the centre circle. our greatest ever manager also happened to be a protestant as have so many legendary celtic players. unfortunately in this country though we have a media and populace who want to look for easy answers to problems. still though isnt it funny that the two ways in which irish catholics in this country are most visible (rc schools and celtic) are decried as being the cause of sectarianism and yet organisations like the orange order and the discrimination faced by irish catholics in this country never seem to be touched upon. |
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| Aventinian |
Hmm... I disagree with that. |
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| Rinty |
There is a quite simple reason for this that is nothing to do with the schols having a better outlook or the religious element of the schools. Small classes can cause it in some schools as mancusco says but in cities like glasgow the school rolls and class sizes are much the same from ND to RC schools. A catholic school covers a wider area taking in kids from many different backgrounds linking them by their parents religion rather than the scheme they live in. So a poor area like Shettleston will have an ND school that is entirely populated by kids from that most deprived area. The RC school will also have kids from there, alongside kids bussed in from areas that are less deprived where kids will a better grounding in early years and higher expectations. This gives a false impression and an advantage to RC schools when it comes to looking at results. But I am sure that the difference is not significant or anything to do with the nature of the school.
To me this is partly true but also the points RFB makes on being 'visible' also have an effect. Having separate schools perpetuates the difference and also makes catholics easier targets for bigots. It does enhance division and I have seen it happen myself. I attended an RC secondary school in Kilmarnock for a while, travelling from a village 5 miles away. Until I went to this school my friends came mainly from the streets I lived in. After a few years at this school my friends in my village were mainly others from the catholic school. This was because we spent so much time together, left earlier for school and came home later, played in the same sports teams etc. Now that shouldnt be an insurmountable problem but in this country it is against a background of an already divided society.
This is an exagerated version of events. What, in effect, happens re the curriculum is that the ND schools and Catholic schools both have the same national curriculum RE class that covers world religions and religion in general. The catholics then have second RE period that is agreed with the church, often at the expense of a period of PE. The catholic church has no say in the rest of the cuuriculm which is shared by all of Scotland's state schools. The employment situation is clearly within EU legislaton and has been proven to be so many times. I personally would rather there isnt separate schools or a religious basis for our scholos but I can see the argument for specific employment requirements in specialist schools. having women working in girls schools, catholic teachers in catholic schools, in some jobs, makes sense. The ND thing amounts to more than just two services a year. They are, by definition, schools that dont pertain to any particular denomination, but it HAS to be christian and HAS to be a non-catholic denomination as they have a separate provision. To most people 'no particular christian denomination as long as it isnt catholic' protestant. Also there is a requirement for a religious outlook in assemblies and a school chaplain (again must be christain and non-catholic). The severe shortage of priests in the catholic church in Scotland means that most RC schools have that one period and not much else other than services on festivals. Likewise most ND schools dont take the religious nature of the assemblies and school ethos seriously. But some do, and the concept is that they should. As I said, the easiest way to remove religious division in schools would be to remove the religious nature of ND schools, leaving catholic parents with no argument for special treatment. But lets not focus too much on the schools. We have episcopalean schools in Scotland and it doesnt seem to cause the same problems. There are catholic schols all across the world and it doesnt cause the same problems. Our sectarianism was there and would be there with or without catholic schools. It was far worse in the early 20th century and has waned year on year since, thankfully. It does this despite there being separate school systems so the evidence would seem to suggest that the bigotry and sectarianism wanes with time, like it does with most immigrant communities, and that separate schools are not a barrier to that process. |
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| RadgeJougal |
If schools all went back to uniform, this kind of thing wouldn't even be an argument. I'm all in favour of school uniform, and not for kinky reasons either. | ||||||||||||
| agentmancuso |
I have no argument with religious schools or religious schooling whatsoever. I have a problem with the state funding of religious schools. |
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| agentmancuso |
Perhaps you went to a school with particularly competent teachers or management. Or were the bishops giving you all a hand with your exams?
I am well aware of how the system works. At present, it works to entrench sectarian divisions. |
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| agentmancuso |
On the contrary, in this country we have a media who ignored the sectarian element in football for a century, thereby lending it tacit support: only in the last 10-15 years has it been openly acknowledged as a problem. Most mainstream society has now dragged itself out of the sectarian gutter. Even the football clubs have been dragged kicking and screaming into the modern world, leaving only the darker corners (the actual terraces) tainted. The knuckle-draggers at both stadiums can decry the attack on their 'traditions' and their 'identity', but then that's what bigots do the world over.
Neither is the cause of sectarianism. Both help preserve it artificially. Incidently, I've spent a couple of decades in RC schools, and yet have never met a single Irish person.
The Orange Order are evidently not the brightest or the most cultivated bunch. You might even say they were morons. But they have no significant effect on life in Scotland, other than causing traffic jams, and they represent only a tiny minority. I've never came across a single incident of anti-Catholic discrimination in my life. Have you? |
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| RadgeJougal |
"But they have no significant effect on life in Scotland"
Disagree. They may be regional, but their effect is disproportional to their membership. "I've never came across a single incident of anti-Catholic discrimination in my life. Have you?" I have. Most times some asks you what your school was, it's either bigotry or snobbery. RC or private? Proddie or public? The funniest story I heard was some numpty who thought Loretto was a Catholic school. (Actually it's a very posh private "non-denominational" one.) |
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| parkhead_rfb |
yes i have. and official figures released not so long ago also showed that rc people were far more likely to be the victims of sectarianism than others, if were all as bad as each other then can you explain this? as for the orange order having no sway, thankfully it is decreasing but you would be surpised how many jobs in the west of scotland are given out through the order. the sat before the twelth i would also be unable to wear a celtic top/gaa top/ireland top/anything green due to the high likely hood of serious attack, why is this accepted? |
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| Rinty |
I have, several actually including violent ones. | ||||||||||||
| agentmancuso |
What effect do they have? I have. Most times some asks you what your school was, it's either bigotry or snobbery [/quote] That's not discrimination, it's prejudice. There is no legal requirement to like Catholics. Discrimination does not mean 'not liking'. It means putting an illegal barrier in the way of Catholic job applicants, housing applicants or similar. |
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| agentmancuso |
I am unsure what violent discrimination would look like: please enlighten me? |
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| agentmancuso |
No. The examinable curriculum for religious education is the same i.e. all candidates for Higher RE sit the same exam. But the delivery of the curriculum content is not the same. In RC schools, one form of Christianity is presented, not as 'knowledge about religion', but as religious truth.
No. Sex education materials have to be deemed 'acceptable' by the curia.
As you are well aware, religious discrimination in employment is directly contrary to both the spirit and the letter of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as enshrined in EU (and hence UK) law. It may well be that the exploitation of legal loopholes by weasel lawyers, in combination with reluctance to open a potentially expensive can of worms, have allowed the blatantly discriminatory practice of allowing bishops to veto applicants for state schools to continue, but that is neither here nor there.
Are Solidarity as a whole in favour of religious discrimination in employment?
There are three episcopalian state schools, and one Jewish state school.
On the contrary, separate schools are the single biggest obstacle to integration: they are an embodiment of sectarianism. |
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| RadgeJougal |
"What effect do they have?"
Well, on the positive side, they provide a glue in communities which lack it in other areas. "Sonny" gets to play and wear "smart" clothes and troop up and down and make the parents proud. On the negative side, they can be pretty intimidating and drag a bunch of trogs around with them. They also behave like a paramilitary organisation. They also dress like Sgt Pepper, and also create rifts (I know this contradicts para 1, but it does make some sense!)
Such things do occur in some parts of central Scotland, although it's more usually the Proddies that are discriminated against. Discrimination is just prejudice put into action. |
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| agentmancuso |
Yes, that's about the measure of the thing. But none of this has any significant effect on life on Scotland as a whole; it's just a bunch of ugly people with an ugly hobby.
One flows from the other, yes. But specifically, discrimination is an offence against the notion of equality before the law. |
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| RadgeJougal |
"Yes, that's about the measure of the thing. But none of this has any significant effect on life on Scotland as a whole; it's just a bunch of ugly people with an ugly hobby."
Arguable. I grew up as a Protestant in a pretty unsectarian part of Scotland, but RC friends of mine tell me various horror stories. When they march in Aberdeen, or the Borders, it does create an unpleasant atmosphere, but I think that RFC is a more serious problem, as their bigotry travels better and is regularly televised. I have been trying to identify its positive aspects. I think it would have been better if they'd put their effort into English style colliery bands. The banners and the clothes show signs of effort, and the principle is one of bringing together socially and giving them a commonality, but there must be another way of doing this. For what it's worth, the older members are far more respectable than the young thugs they trail round with them. |
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| agentmancuso |
Agreed.
I hope the struggle was worthwhile
Makes sense. I suppose those that actually play the instruments must be reasonable sober at least. |
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| RadgeJougal |
I think while it promotes rifts between religious communities, it does provide a kind of community focus at the same time, as well as a sense of tradition. In this way, it's perverting what are justifiable aims. In some of these post-industrial places, there isn't much else, to be honest. | ||||||||||||
| Rinty |
No, you are wrong on this. The delivery of the RE period that leads to the exam IS the same. It is the second period, not part of the exam, where the church and catholic parents have influence. ND schoold dont get that second period of RE. That is why the exam CAN be the same as they are following the same course!
True, but little to do with sectarianism in Scotland as it is certainly not unique to scotland or to catholic schools.
No, I am not either. But there are things that can be argued due to the current set up that we have. If you have girls only school it makes sense for some jobs to limited to women. In a religious group it makes sense for some jobs to be restricted to people who believe the thing they are meant to be teaching. I belive certain roles in CofS care homes can also soecify a prcarising member of the church. If a post for a kirk minister comes up should atheists be able to apply? Wouldnt it make sense for the editor of the jewish chronicle to be jewish? I am not saying it is a good thing or a bad thing. As you know I have argued against having faith schools or religious influence of our schools, but its hardly a crime. If a centre for polish immigrants advertises a job the requires applicants to speak polish then that isn't discrinmination against those who cant, its a practical policy to make the job do-able. But, as I am arguing AGAINST religion in schools, separate schools and faih schools, you can hardly place me in a position of supporting religious appointments in schools! If I was here as a spokesperson of Solidarity then I would use my name and title. This forum gives me a chance to debate as me, so dont take my opinions here as necessarily the policies of Solidarity.
Yes, and I posted a very good example from my own life where I saw this happen. They are the result of a divided society and a barrier to integration. But not the biggest single obstacle. The biggest obstacle, in my opinion, is entrenched, bigotted minds.
You asked us if we had witnessed @incidents' of anti-catholic discrimination. I have and some of them resulted in violent attacks. You might want to frame this debate by declaring a defintion of discrimination that suits the points you want to debate. But discrimination means treating someone differently based on the group that they belong to. If you would ignore protestants but puinch catholics that is dicriminating. In terms of legal employment disrcimination I have also seen that. I worked in a place that didn't employ catholics and I know of other places where this happened as well. Rangers are a famous example where religious discrimination in employment was celebrated never mind practised. But, you being extremely pedantic to say violent acts motivated by anti-catholic sectarianism are not discrimination. Overall I think the argument for the continued existence of catholic schools is weaker now than it has ever been. My point is that a technical removal of the religious aspects of out state ND schools would leave that argument nowhere to go. Their argument against mergers is that the ND schools are protestant schools. No-one sees them as such but they are, but only technically. That can be easily changed. An easy step to take that would mean catholic parents would have to concede that all relgions are equal in a non-religious school rather than a non-denominational school. If all religions have NO status in the school, then they are equal.
I dont think it is an ND school. It is independent of the state sector and has no need to comply with the religious requirements for ND status. But there is another point. If faith schools are a barrier to an integrated community then we must also agree that private schools separate society by wealth. |
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| William_Cleland |
Why only mention Rangers? Celtic have discriminated based on religion as well ever since they were set up by Brother Walfrid. There would be a bit of a case for having RC schools if society were still religiously observant but very few young people go to church nowadays so the only thing that is keeping it going is ancestral tribalism. Time to pull the plug and to create a secular society with a full separation of church and state. |
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| Rinty |
"Why only mention Rangers? Celtic have discriminated based on religion as well ever since they were set up by Brother Walfrid."
I was referring to mancusco's points on discrimination in employment. Celtic obviously didnt do that. The very first team in their first game had more non-catholics than catholics and that was rarely altered. Whereas rangers had a well documented policy of avoiding recruitment of catholics to any role within the club. Alex Ferguson and others have boldly exposed thos over the years but it was their policy for a century or so. So I didnt mention 'only' rangers because I support Celtic but because they were the only club who discriminated against catholics when employing people, which is what we were discussing. "There would be a bit of a case for having RC schools if society were still religiously observant but very few young people go to church nowadays so the only thing that is keeping it going is ancestral tribalism. Time to pull the plug and to create a secular society with a full separation of church and state." Totally agree, as long as we are talking about all schools and not just RC schools. Secular schooling is long overdue in this country and I dont think it would be an unpopular move if a party was brave enough to introduce it. |
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| William_Cleland |
Celtic have consistently employed a far greater portion of Roman Catholics in their workforce than are present in the general population for no obvious reason related to spirituality. That to me represents a clear pattern of systematic discrimination. We agree on secular schooling (i.e. yes all schools not just the RC ones) so that is just a minor quibble obviously. | ||||||||||||
| Rinty |
"Celtic have consistently employed a far greater portion of Roman Catholics in their workforce than are present in the general population for no obvious reason related to spirituality. That to me represents a clear pattern of systematic discrimination."
I dont know whether your assertion is true or not. If it is it could be simply down to their appeal in the Irish catholic community meaning people are more likely to apply if catholic. But in the playing staff it hasnt always been the case. I dont think it is systematic. Of the people that I know personally who have been employed by Celtic three were definitely catholic, three definitely non-catholic and two I dont know whether they are either. As I know from my own experience, having an irish name and being a celtic supporter often makes people assume you are catholic. I remember a few years ago a rangers supporting mate of mine making the argument that rangers had as many catholic players in their squad as celtic had protestants. When doing this he quoted Jackie Mcnamara and Simon Donnelly, neither of whom are catholic. |
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| agentmancuso |
Have you ever been present at or involved with the delivery of religious or social education in a RC school? I have, on various occasions.
Only in RC schools can the clergy dictate the content of Social Education classes. Not in ND schools.
In RC schools, the clergy can dictate who gets appointed to positions teaching French or Art or Chemistry. Are there special 'Catholic' versions of these things that teachers need believe in?
If the care home is set up by, run by, and paid for by the CofS then this is only right and proper. When schools are set up by, run by, and paid for by the taxpayer it is unacceptable that clergy can interfere in curriculum or staff matters.
Discriminating against applicants to a job vacancy in the public sector on the basis of religion should be a crime. It would be if EU legislation was enforced properly.
The problem is not that some schools are independent, but that most schools are controlled by the state. |
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| agentmancuso |
To their credit, Celtic have never discriminated in this way. The only team to do so in 'favour' of Roman Catholics were the former Hibernian, for a period of two years in the 1870's, prior to their disbanding and then reforming as a non-sectarian side.
Agreed on both points. |
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| agentmancuso |
I don't think it is accepted. Nor do I think it is a recognisible description of the vast majority of Scotland; maybe a few dead end streets in Bridgeton or Dalmarnock, but that's about it. |
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| William_Cleland |
That's the standard propaganda line on the topic in the Scottish media but if you move outside of Scottish football the viewpoint on issues like this would normally be that you don't need to have a completely RC workforce for there to be a systematic pattern of discrimination against people of other creeds. There only needs to be a persistent pattern of employing a disproportionate percentage of people from a particular religious denomination when there is no obvious spiritual reason to do so unlike in a seminary or a convent or something like that. Rangers don't get off the hook because of Laurie Blyth, Don Kitchenbrand and Hugh O'Neill after all.  Also worth noting that discrimination went well beyond the Old Firm. Some provincial clubs like Kilmarnock had quite the reputation within the game where this sort of stuff was concerned up until the 80s.
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| Rinty |
Yes, I played a full role in my sons secondary school (RC) and especially during the time of its closure when merging with the local ND or the furether away RC school was discussed. I had a constant run-in with the school over RE (the extra catholic class not the standard curriculum class) and had many discussions with friends and relatives who teach at the school, including teaching RE. Following an illness I then had to educate my son at home for his last year at school, which required clear instructions and many discussions on those issues. So I delivered the standard RE one-period to my son, on behalf of an RC school. There were no 'catholic' differences to how this is delivered and me being an atheist wasnt a problem. I wouldnt have been able to deliver the catholic period but that was irrelevant as my son, by that time, was no longer a catholic. My wife and I are directly involved in education and much of this work means talking to all schools and taking on board concerns when devising some courses. I fully understand the nature of what we are talking about and think that you misunderstand what I am saying. You said, and I agree, that the curriculum for an RE O'Grade is the same for both types of schools, this is correct. However, there is also a standard one period a week RE class for alll pupils in all state schools, which is also shared by both types of school. Catholic kids get an extra RE class, where they DO promote catholic thinking. In the other class they are bound by the course to discuss all religions equally, that is the point of the class. But this period had a definite christian outlook overall in my opinion. William, Thats just nonsense. If a particular group, religious or otherwise feel tied to a club or organsiation that is one thing. Discrimination would only be there if people of other faiths were excluded, which is clearly never been the case at Celtic. As I said, the very first celtic team had 6 non-catholics! Your example of kitchenbrand and others who slipped through the net at Ibrox is not comparable when you are talking about half or more of celtics players througout their history being non-catholic. How can this be seen as a club that discriminates? Rangers discrimination would obviouly drive more young catholic players in Celtics direction. When you know that you cant play for Rangers than your ambition in Scotland would be to play for the other biggest team. Take the lisbon lions? managed by a protestant with a team that had five protestants. If you think celtic discriminate hiow did stein manage to get the job as manager? Its pretty obvious that his religion didnt matter to Celtic. We are having a discussion here that turned towards anti-catholic discrimination in the workplace. mancusco asked for examples, I oprovided the most famous one. Try tio rise above your tribal position and look at this objectively. You are surely not saying that three catholics who slipped through the net counters Alex ferguson and others who say that the discrimination was there. Or are you saying that rangers discrimination is OK because celtic had a lot of tims about the place? Kichenbrand stated that he kept his religion secret. Blyth was released from the club when they found out his religion, Spencer wasnt a catholic, one of his parents was and he had been baptised as one but wast practising. I dont know anything about O'neill and followed football in the 70's, yet dont remember him playing for rangers, who is he? There is a list of 'catholics' who supposedly plyed fopr rangers before WW1 although I have seen that list disputed and no-one who posts the list to internet sites ever offers any proof that the players involved were catholic. Between then and Mo Johnstone the only examples are the ones that you gave. So 80 years without only 4 'catholics' catholic from a team who play in a city with a massive catholic population. One of them was a south africanwho kept it secret, one wasnt a catholic and one was sacked when they found out his religion. You can tell me O'neills story. |
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| William_Cleland |
This emotional outpouring was really in response to "....Rangers don't get off the hook..."? Celtic signing a predominantly RC team and using overt Irish nationalist symbolism to attract a predominantly RC fan base was a big part of what made Rangers and Celtic the "Old Firm". Without that maybe Partick Thistle and Third Lanark would have been the giants of the Scottish game but they weren't able to tap into such strong feelings of tribalism. Brother Walfrid has a lot to answer for in my opinion because things didn't have to wind up that way. Although Liverpool and Everton dabbled with sectarianism to an extent from the 20s to the 60s things never became completely polarized that way and it is a total non-factor in football terms in Merseyside nowadays despite a very similar demographic make up to Glasgow in Orange and Green terms.
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| Rinty |
LIverpool is nothing like Gasgow, the support for the teams is mainly geographical and both sets of fans have strong support in irish communities and orange communities. My local orange lodge has very close links to a lodge in Southport and all support everton as their second team after rangers. In the lodge in my old home town the opposite was the case, they were staunchly orange and liverpool fans. I'm a liverpool fan and have travelled to matches with my mates who were rangers tops when they go.
I dont know that Brother Walfrid was the person who set tne agenda for what celtic became but I'll bow to you on that if you know it to be true. I'm intrigued by the idea that you claim he did this to wind people up. Are you sure about that? Celtic's deliberate attempts to appeal to the irish, and by association catholic, community IS a major factor in the sectarianism and tribalism in Glasgow and Scotland but that brings up another subject. On the issue of employment discrimination it is clear rangers had such a policy and celtic didnt. Why did Kichenbrand decide to keep his religion secret, why did Blyth get the boot, why did Graham Fyfe get the boot? Why do people continue to insist that Spencer is a catholic when he himself says that he isnt? I dont thionk that you can claim the Celtic did sign a predominately RC team, they signed players irrespective of their religion, always have done. can you cite one example of a non-catholic facing job discrimination at celtic? How did Davie Provan, Murdo McLeod, Danny McGain, Kenny Dalglish etc manage to avoid this discrimination, did they pretend to be catholic? |
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| agentmancuso |
No, there needs to be more than that, particularly if trends can be explained sensibly in another way. In the days before the commercialisation of football, it is hardly surprising that a club supported in the main by people of one religion should attract an above average number of players of that religion. Discrimination only occurs when the club deliberately turns down players because of their religion. At Celtic, that never happened. At Rangers it did, right up till Souness took the bull by the horns. |
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| agentmancuso |
You evidently do know what you're talking about; I'm sorry if I appeared to question this in previous posts. I work in an ND school at present, but have previously worked in two RC schools. My own experience of the structure of RE/SE is quite different from yours. I can think of no explanation for this, other than the possibility that there are variations in the way local authorities implement national guidelines: my observations relate to South Lanarkshire Council. |
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| agentmancuso |
Using overt Irish nationalism may be ugly and stupid, but it does not in itself constitute discrimination. Refusing to sign players because of their religion does.
Thistle are the giants of the Scottish game, albeit sleeping giants. |
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| William_Cleland |
Between the 20s and the 60s Everton were usually seen as the Roman Catholic team and Liverpool were usually seen as the Protestant team. Hence the Celtic/Everton ski hats that were all the rage at one point in the 80s. In a similar way in Manchester, City were seen as the Protestant team and United were seen as the RC team. The fact that faded in Lancashire but kept going in Glasgow is what is interesting. You clearly want to blame it all on Rangers. My attitude is that it takes two to tango. |
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| Rinty |
William: "Between the 20s and the 60s Everton were usually seen as the Roman Catholic team and Liverpool were usually seen as the Protestant team. Hence the Celtic/Everton ski hats that were all the rage at one point in the 80s. In a similar way in Manchester, City were seen as the Protestant team and United were seen as the RC team. The fact that faded in Lancashire but kept going in Glasgow is what is interesting. You clearly want to blame it all on Rangers. My attitude is that it takes two to tango."
Everton were only seen as a catholic team by people who see things in those terms. I had | celtic/liverpool scarf at the time others had celtic/everton hats. This was something for celtic and rangers supporters, deeming other cities to have 'catholic' or 'prtestant' teams. The people in Liverpool and manchester were largely bemused by the whole thing. Evertons support came from areas that had a high irish immigrant population, the ulster immigrants were mainly in other areas. In Manchester it is different. Man Utd DID have connections to the catholic community and a catholic chapel at their ground. But City were never a protestant team. Some bigots up here would see city as protestant simply because utd were catholic but that mindset dopesnt apply in every city. City have a few celtic supporters clubs within their ranks and many celtic supporters, the Gallagher brothers being the most famous. The fact that it doesnt exist in lanacashire but remains in Scotland IS the question, that is what we are debating. Why do catholic schools not cause the same divison in those cities? I dont blame it all on Rangers, I have consistently said that we cant out it down to football teams and schools, those are only symptoms of the problem. IF it was just football teams or schools then it would be easily fixed, but as every country has teams who assiciate with particular idenitities and every country has catholic schools this is clearly not why scotland is different. I think it HAS faded in Scotland. In my lifetime as well as over the longer period. You are trying to tie the rangers employment policy to some tit-for-tat thing. My team, Cumnock Juniors, have always had a high percentage of players from the town. This is not because we are biased against other towns, it is because players want to play for us from our own community. That is why there is a pattern to a lot of celtic players being of irish -catholic origin, not because celtic discriminate against protestants. Mancusco: "I can think of no explanation for this, other than the possibility that there are variations in the way local authorities implement national guidelines: my observations relate to South Lanarkshire Council." It is defintely applied differently across local authorities and from school to school. You are probably right on art teachers etc but it isnt usually used. I think my art teacher when I went to an RC school was protestant. That is what I am talking about, the rules as they are rather than as they are applied. Many NDs dont bother with religion, others do, but there are rules there for them to interpret. One awful case that I remember was a family member whose kids were at an ND primary school. The kids did a visit to all of the churches in the town and left out the catholic church, when asked why, the head teacher said he had apllied the letter of the law saying that he considered his school to be for protestant denominations. He wasnt wrong in this but he will be in a small minority. The reason I focus on the ND schools is through experience. Our local RC secondary was closing a couple of years ago. The proposal was to merge it with the RC school in Kilmarnock 15 miles away. I proposed that it merged with the local ND school, just half a mile away. Some catholic paents (a minority at that RC school) told me that the local ND was a protestant school but said that they would be happy for the kids to attend it if was non-religious but not while it was non-denominational. Being an atheist this was news to me and something that made me rethink the problem of our schools. My conclusion, as I said, was that ND schools have to go. When ND schools dont exist the argument for catholic schools crumbles and we can have all our kids together in one school. |
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| William_Cleland |
Funny how that kind of argument never worked in the context of Harland and Wolff in Belfast (i.e most of East Belfast is Prod).
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| William_Cleland |
I always find that stuff to be a bogus argument given the way RC children seem to be able to attend ND schools in the remoter parts of Scotland without any apparent problems. Worth noting that it even happens in one of our major cities at the secondary school level in Aberdeen. In reality the religious content at ND schools is pretty much zero and has been for the last couple of generations because the Protestant community has largely secularized so I don't think that can be used to justify why some parents would send their kids on a daily 30 mile trek by bus rather than sending them down the street to mix with their neighbours. If the local school was officially rather than de facto secular then I suspect the excuse used to justify continuing the ancestral tribalism would probably be that they need religious instruction.
Also, I know people from Manchester who have told me that City used to be seen as the Protestant club but that it's a non-factor nowadays so my comments were based in a second hand manner on a Mancunian mindset. |
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| Rinty |
"I always find that stuff to be a bogus argument given the way RC children seem to be able to attend ND schools in the remoter parts of Scotland without any apparent problems. Worth noting that it even happens in one of our major cities at the secondary school level in Aberdeen."
Yes, obviously those parents who dont have a problem will not have a problem!! But those who do, the problem is the nature of our 'default' state schools being protestant, in their eyes. In Aberdeen one of the secondaries is an episcopalian school. In many RC schools there are a majority of non-catholic kids. This doesnt do anything to inform this debate, the parents who are less entrenched are not the problem so that their kids are happy to be in ND school does not get over the problem of those who wont. "In reality the religious content at ND schools is pretty much zero and has been for the last couple of generations because the Protestant community has largely secularized so I don't think that can be used to justify why some parents would send their kids on a daily 30 mile trek by bus rather than sending them down the street to mix with their neighbours." Yes, that was my point exactly and why7 I argued for a merger of the local schools. But is the nature of the school rather than what happens in practice that caused the catholic parents a problem. RC schools also have far less religion than before because society is secularised and so many non-catholic kids attend, it doesnt stop them being catholic schools though. "If the local school was officially rather than de facto secular then I suspect the excuse used to justify continuing the ancestral tribalism would probably be that they need religious instruction." Possibly but it wouldnt be an argument that could win. In a secular school all religions are treated the same. That is not the case in an ND or RC school. |
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| Holebender |
Which Aberdeen secondary is episcopalian? As far as I'm aware they're all non-denominational and have been since the only RC secondary closed about 30 years ago. | ||||||||||||
| Niall |
St Margarets. Its a private fee paying school. Niall. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
i would say the biggest part of glasgow (outwith maybe royston) and certainly around ayrshire. |
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| Holebender |
Oh silly me, I thought Rinty was talking about state-run schools. |
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| Aventinian |
It seemed to be what was suggested. There are Episcopal state primaries though. One in Dunblane certainly. |
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| agentmancuso |
I think that's the only one. |
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| William_Cleland |
Also still one in Perth I think. There used to be one in Stirling until very recently as well up by the castle but it closed due to a declining school roll so what was once something vaguely resembling a national network of Episcopalian schools is almost gone now.
http://www.st-niniansepiscopal.pkc.sch.uk/ |
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| Rinty |
apologies, I thought the state run school was in aberdeen, rather than in stirlingshire. The same is happening with catholic schols as with episcopal schools, every year there are less and less of them. If aberdeen only have ND secondary schools they still have religion as a factor in education. They will still have the same responsibility to have religious assemblies, services and a school chaplain, but they will all be from the non-catholic christian point of view. So we have a division in the system caused by the religious nature of state schools in Scotland. The catholic kids will attend a protestant service or no service!
The point remains though, even if episcopal schools is on a small scale it doesnt cause the same problems re sectarianism, in fact the episcopal schools are seen as some quaint old anachronism. Just as the state-funded protestant schools in Ireland dont or the catholic schools in England. If catholic schols fuel religious division and secterianism in Glasgow then we would see the same division happening between presbyterians and episcopalians in the small pockets where those schools still exist! BTW Private schools also have an element of state support too through, tax relief, costs of national exams and curriculum, HMI inspectors, etc. Overall I cant see any argument for ending catholic schools while retaining ND schools & episcopal primaries. All of our state schools should be secular, in my opinion. |
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| William_Cleland |
Worth noting that even Joseph Devine the RC Bishop of Motherwell once described RC schools as an "enabler of sectarianism":-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/2274383.stm Bishop Devine said: "Denominational education is an enabler of sectarianism. "Roman Catholic schooling is divisive - sometimes it's a price worth paying. "The Catholic community believes that with denominational schooling comes the creation of a common set of values - a coherent system that has the academic curriculum and moral and spiritual life in tandem." |
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| Rinty |
Yes and few would disagree with Devine. RFB made this same point earlier in the thread. Catholic schools can become the target for sectarians but this isnt necessarily a reason for ending them or the same as saying they cause sectarianism.
You could easily say that having black skin 'enables' racism. But, once again, you turn to just catholic schools when we were discussing religion in schools. Some people cant get over this barrier, when religious division is mentioned, catholic schools come up. Notice you didnt mention that the same article had Brian Monteith pointing out that religious schools elsewhere create harmony rather than division. The article from the BBC also shamefully attempts to link supporting the IRA with catholic schools, christ knows where they get that connection. If the chanting of RA songs at Celtic Park is related to catholic schools, why isnt the UVF chanting at Ibrox linked to the fact that our state schools are mainly protestant? Could it be that it is our society that is divided already and schools are just a manifestation of that? |
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| Cymro |
It seems that whenever the issue of Religion Schooling is discussed then quickly the true issues are forgot.
I am dead against any form of State Education dividied on Religious or Denominational attitudes. As far as I'm concerned ALL Religious State Education is wrong. It's not saying that these cause division as some such as Parkhead like to try and make it sound, it's the fact that when you create 1 school based on one religion such as Islam or one denomination such as Catholicism or Church of Scotland then you instantly create a them and us situation. No point arguing that it doesn't happen that way as it clearly does. In my home town there is the state school and across the road is a private school. I never did anything with the kids/snobs from there as they went to a different school. If you want to be taught about your own religion then go to Sunday School or what ever equlvelent your own religion or denomination have. |
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| Rinty |
Totally agree cymru but perhaps yopu are unaware that in Scotland we dont have state schools that are non-religious. Those schools that arent catholic are non-deominational, which is basically non-catholic christian schools.
You also seem to think that Islam is a denomination. There are many denominations in Islaam so a school for muslims would be closer to an ND school than a catholic school. A wahabbi or shia school would be more similar to a catholic school. |
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| Cymro |
No Rinty I don't think Islam is a denomination. What I've said is that Schools based on Religion (Islam) or Denomination (Catholicism) are wrong. I don't believe that any state school should have links to any form of religion or denomination.
I was aware that State Schooling in Scotland is unfortunatly 'defacto' denominational, you told me last time. I don't think it's right though. Not singling out Catholicism for special treatment, just don't agree with any of it. |
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| Rinty |
"No Rinty I don't think Islam is a denomination. What I've said is that Schools based on Religion (Islam) or Denomination (Catholicism) are wrong. I don't believe that any state scho |