| Archive for Our Scotland - www.our-scotland.org Scottish Politics Discussion Forum / Messageboard - Dedicated to online discussion about Scottish Politics and an Independent Scotland, as well as Scottish Society today. We also have a section dedicated to Banter, Sport and Recommended Sites. |
| will live from Glasgow |
Sean Connery or My Mumbit hungover,but before i forget a drunken conversation i had last night i thought id add this poll to see what we think is required to be scottish.Sean connery was born in edinburgh in 1930, when he became james bond in the 60s he reached international fame and has to a certain extent remained one of the most recogniseable scots in the world. Heis seen by some as a champion of scotland, specifically in America. But despite his love for the place he has not actually lived in the country for several decades. My mum was born in wales to english parents, she was educated on the isle of man,went to university in England, got married in Australia but for the past 25 years has lived and worked for a local council in Scotland. when i ask she is not sure where she should say she is from,and even more unsure of her nationality. I feel she should see herself (perhaps not exclusively) as scottish. when drunk last night i said she was more scottish than sean connery because of where she lives and the work she does for it. what do we think |
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| Shagpile |
I would say they are equally Scottish if they choose to be. From my perspective where she was born, the nationality of her parents is irrelevant. She lives here and works here pays tax here and has done so for several years if she chooses to be Scottish, I would say that's her right.
Sir Sean can also claim that right.... after all, he was born here. |
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| azzuri |
...as interesting as this is, doesn't really have much to do with Scottish politics, so I've moved it to the right section.
In my opinion, they are as Scottish as they want to be. |
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| Dave Coull |
Regarding the question of Scottish identity,
Oh, yes, it does! (I'm really getting into the Christmas spirit, or at least the pantomime season spirit.) As I understand it, the policy of the SNP is that anybody, regardless of where they were born, who is normally resident in Scotland at the time of independence, will automatically qualify for Scottish citizenship. Also, as I understand it, the Green party, the SSP, and Solidarity all agree with this. My step-son Sam was born in England, to an English father and an American mother, went to school in England, went to university in England, and these days he lives and works in Sweden, but (possibly because of my influence when he was growing up!) he could never bring himself to support anybody but Scotland in international football competitions. He will be staying with us over Christmas, but he has said that, once there is a date for actual independence, he intends to establish residence, so that his claim to Scottish citizenship will be secured. |
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| Aventinian |
Oh for f**k's sake, we're now having Scottishness competitions?
Does this forum agree with prominent members of the SNP that Unionists are less Scottish, I wonder... |
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| Shagpile |
I sometimes wonder too. |
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| Reluctant Hero |
That is a ridiculous comment. I mean how can Unionists be less Scottish when they are not Scottish to begin with 
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| Holebender |
Who are these "prominent members of the SNP"? Can you provide links to back this claim? | ||||||||||||||||||
| will live from Glasgow |
yeah having sobered up i suddenly think this could be construed as quite silly,i think i may have been trying to make a point about nationality and its pointlessness, or its importance i cant quite tell,but meh screw you i think its still a valid question to a certain extent |
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| Aventinian |
How about we start with Winnie Ewing: "the enemies of Scotland are the traitors within the gate, the unionist parties who, whilst claiming to be Scottish..." It's all charmingly available on the SNP website: http://www.snp.org/node/11859 |
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| Stevie |
Brits are traitors.
Are Scottish nationalists less British than unionists? |
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| Lord Pitsligo |
And quoted by you out of context, as usual. |
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| Aventinian |
Well thanks for that; I note it stands rather starkly against the nice, pleasant, civic-minded nationalism attempted by Lord Pitsligo below. Unfortunate really.
Being British is really two separate things. Firstly, there is British citizenship: in which case, no, they're not: you're either a British citizen or you are not. In terms of British national identity, which is the other part of Britishness, it would seem most Scottish nationalists don't have one.
I don't think there's any sort of context you can put that in which casts it in a favourable light. |
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| Lord Pitsligo |
It would have helped if you quoted the whole thing instead of stopping at just the bit that changes the meaning from unionists who behave a certain way to all unionists. |
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| Stevie |
Your mum is Scottish but Sean is Scots.
Dearest Aventinian, Do you love Scotland? |
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| Dave Coull |
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| Stevie |
Oh dear, am I going to have to withdraw my "Brits are traitors" comment to appease? And is Aventinian going to withdraw his "repugnant"? He uses the SNP symbol as a "You are fascists emblem" but he is a big Brit Nat - he supports the fabricated British Unit but not the basic Scottish unit. He's chosen a side and thus chooses the "British" nation. AVENTINIAN, I find your view of nationalism as being exemplary of the Brainwashed Brit Brigade(no offense intended). Ordinarily I wouldn't comment but using the SNP symbol is a direct attack on a group of individuals with your typical left wing mantra about nationalism(inferring we're Nazis is tired and everybody knows it). But you are every bit as nationalistic as any true Scot, ONLY, you support the British model of national identity. Thus, you are a nationalist... Not a very good one since your concept of nationhood is to support a made up country. If you had been brought up in an independent Scotland you would think it perfectly normal that Scotland exist as a country; as it is you think it perfectly normal that the current British state is normal. You need more imagination, really you do(your opinions were taught to you by your Labour supporting Modern Studies teacher at high school). I wonder if you've ever truly had an original thought. Yes, nationalism can be evil, repugnant but so can socialism, conservatism, communism, liberalism... . Depends on the people and the circumstances. Scots who don't have their own country need to affirm their national identity and doing thus is NOT venturing into fascism. Stop fighting us and join us. I wonder, do you love Scotland? |
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| Dave Coull |
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| Stevie |
Oh come on, Scottish women are what they are : some are nice but jings! Brits are not traitors? Ashamed that we can't express our love of Scotland without hatred? Who elected you moral compass? |
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| Dave Coull |
But I wouldn't be at all surprised if the same two possibilities had occurred to other folk as well. |
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| Stevie |
Ach, shoosht laddie, I get where you're coming from but have you seen Aventin's near swastika version of the "repugnant" SNP symbol. A tad irksome, still, I have to admit Aventin is quite witty. Still waiting to hear from Aventin about his British Nationalist stance but I'm sure he'll squirrel his way out of it. Actually, I have to get away from here, it becomes addictive and I have other things to accomplish in life rather than get cauht up in circular discussions. Hey Dave, keep up the good fight. Alba go bhrath. |
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| Aventinian |
I am not a British nationalist. |
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| Aventinian |
"Love" might be a bit strong; we seem to live in a culture where everyone loves everything and I tend to reserve that term for more appropriate occasions. But yes, I have a great deal of affection for Scotland: Edinburgh is the finest city in the UK, the countryside is fantastic, the little villages are interesting, the architecture is fantastic. I feel the same way about other places too, of course.
Considering you and other users on this forum have rather discredited themselves by accusing countless people of some sort of bizarre conspiracies and being other than who they claim to be, I think it's rather stretching your grasp on reality to accuse him of being a Unionist. Anyway, he doesn't seem much different to most of the Cybernats out there. No, these comments are not fortunate to me. Why would they be? Just indicates there's another person out there with unpleasant opinions. ---------------------
Politics is a bit more logical than just football. It's not about choosing sides: if I was to choose a side, mine would be humanity.
Left wing? I am a member of the Conservative Party. I am not remotely left wing. Nor am I inferring you are Nazis, but you must admit that you share an ideology in common.
Nope, sorry. See, I would bat an eyelid if the British state disappeared tomorrow, so long as it was replaced by something better. I recall one day being very pleased to see the United Nations flag flying over St Andrews town hall. I don't believe in states being crafted to support people's insecurities over their identity.
I've heard this nonsense from nationalists a few times. It's just that: nonsense. Yes, Britain was a country that was crafted by rejecting nationalism and instead focusing on creating a new state out of economic and social prudence. That makes it a better country than most in my eyes. But then again, what you forget is that this is broadly what happened with Scotland: it was crafted out of constituent units - often though in far more bloody and unpleasant ways than a treaty between the parts. Plus, pre-union Scotland is a fine example of the 'state-nation' (to use Tom Devine's phrase) - an identity which grew up around a state rather than vice-versa. Just like Britain.
Yep, but being normal is no excuse for anything.
It's not about the consequences, it's the very theory I find problematic. |
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| Lord Pitsligo |
So you have chosen a side, and its certainly not the one of humanity. |
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| Dave Coull |
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| Stevie |
Yes you are. If squirrels could squeak you'd be squeaking right now. kind regards. Is this still the Sean Connery vs my mum thread? |
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| Lord Pitsligo |
If it is then your mum gets it every time
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| Stevie |
You don't know my mum... do you your Lordship? Very much enjoy your posts but your avatar is a little dizzying. Still can't seem to manage an avatar of my own. |
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| Lord Pitsligo |
I know lots of mums, so its difficult to be sure one way or the other. For all I know she could be my own mother! |
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| Stevie |
You know this does open up a whole bunch of tempting motherf****r jokes. |
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| Lord Pitsligo |
Its only tempting if you're really, really sick 
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| Stevie |
Its only tempting if you're really, really sick [/quote]
Fortunately, I'm not really really sick. 
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| Aventinian |
Yes, I've just sat about pontificating on how something is wrong and evil... so I must be one. Clever logic you've got there. To be fair, if the worst insult you can come up with is to call me what you are - simply of a different tribal flavour, a different football team essentially - then it's really quite telling.
Har har. |
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| Stevie |
I wasn't actually trying to insult, just stating fact, and thus you are a hypocrite. You are a defacto BritNat. |
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| Alasdair |
I think the notion that you (bravehand) can Label Av a Nat of any sort may show how little you've read of what he's said in the past ... he's certainly a few things but I don't think a Nat is one of them. | ||||||||||||||||||
| Stevie |
Your logic is sound and I respect that but : if it quacks like a BritNat, walks like a BritNat, looks like a BritNat then it's not a haggis. |
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| mairead |
How can anyone possibly say what Scottish women, or English women or women from any country are like. A pretty daft statement that. You'll see boozing swearing women all over the world. On the other hand you will also see polite, sober and charming women everywhere.
Just as there are drunken rowdy Scotsmen, there is the equivalent in England, Ireland, Wales and anywhere else you care to name. Folks are the same mixture everywhere. |
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| Stevie |
You should see Stirling women on a Saturday, not pretty. Let's face it, it's not just Stirling and of course you can't generalise but a number of young Scotswomen go out on a Saturday night to get wasted, they do and the result is what it is. |
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| Alasdair |
Of course that's a tiny minority, and as has been said you get the same everywhere. |
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| Dave Coull |
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