Should the English Democrats and SNP work closer together

ENGLISH JEW · Should the English Democrats and SNP work closer together

As a senior member of the English Democrats National Council and a proud English Nationalist, my objective for engaging you guys on here is that I am after a closer working closer with the SNP and the nationalist movement up in Scotland.

English Nationalism is just starting to breathe and I feel that the Unionist elite in Westminster will soon feel the full force from us English. However, if we ( and I mean us Nationalists from England, Scotland and Wales ) all worked together then I believe that we can all achieve our goals a lot sooner.

I get a feeling that you Scots don't want to turn your back on us English and the so called hatred that exists is created by the main stream media as this furthers the unionist agenda and keeps us divided.

Just for a minute, imagine is Nationalists from England, Wales and Scotland all shown mutal support for one another, I and many others believe that it would help us all greatly.

Independence doesn't have to mean the end of our relationship, we live on the same ireland, pass one another in the street. Independence can and should bring a new style of working.

ps, pardon the spelling, but i'm sure you get what I'm trying to say

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Sounds like a plan, Plaid Cymru(sp?) and the SNP work quite closely together already im sure they wouldnt have any objections, and working together would undermine the unionist argument that these parties are all isolationists/racists and against England Smile

azzuri

...I think even the unionists know that argument doesn't work any longer.

Indeed, I'd imagine most if not all of the bigots/racists in Scotland are unionists!

However, this is not necessarily meant to imply that all unionists are either bigots or racists.

Smile

frank rizzo

We work well with Welsh Nationalists as we are both pretty left leaning. Most of the English Nationalists you read about just seem like greetin' faced Tories in disguise.

Some of the ignorant anti Scottish rubbish spouted on that English 'so called' Democrats site is laughable.

azzuri

Indeed frank - it's scary some of the stuff that is posted on there.

Lets just say that if that site is representative of English nationalism then it certainly has a long way to go to weed out all the troublemakers and xenophobes. Once it becomes more mainstream, hopefully the movement will reach maturity and these sorts of attitudes will not be so prevalent.

Maybe it's representative of the slur campaign against Scots that seems to be going on in the media at the moment.

SLG

The SNP do work with Plaid. The EDP are in a slightly different situation though not having any members of the UK parliament. They could be deemed a fringe organisation and some of the stuff taken off their forum and used against the SNP.

I think the SNP and Plaid form a joint group in Westminster, I'm sure that if the EDP manage to get anyone elected, they would be able to talk about joining that group. Although the fact that both SNP and Plaid are left of centre helps, as Frank says. From the EDP website, it doesn't look like they are particularly left or right wing, with English independence the clear priority. So long as that's the case, I don't see why there should be a problem.

Up until that point where they are getting folk elected, I don't think there's much chance of the SNP getting involved. I think they'd be better off trying to get involved with grass-roots organisations.

Babygael

Haidh E.J (hope you don't mind the "abreve" I think what you said in your opening post was wonderfully put. Co-operation between us all will do it I believe. I can certainly picture all of our Independent countries working together like "brothers" will be far more effective than that old union disgrace! yesterdays world view,time for a new vision and yours works for me E.J.

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I just checked out their website - the Gary Bushall stuff is quite funny - most of the things he talks about were acheived under the UK - thats like having Sean Connery talk about how Scotland fought of Napolean, Hitler and brought civilisation to the world. lol.

Aventinian

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"Did Ireland suddenly disappear?"

I suppose its difficult to guess where to place Northern Ireland in the scheme of things, the majority of the elected representatives seem to be unionist, and if Scotland, England and Wales were to all go for independence from the UK I dont know where they could go from there - I suppose they could either unify with the Republic of Ireland under a devolution type scheme or go it alone maybe in the European Union.

Economist

A quick look at the ED party website, shows they aren't an independence party but just want English devolution with a regional parliament set up. That is as far from independence as you can quite possibly get.

I'm sure the SNP would work with such a party if they shared their ultimate aims - ie to end the union, but take it from an SNP point of view - what benefit will they derive from working with a party that doesn't profess to wanting to end the union? The SNP were used in the past to get a Scottish parliament by unionist parties, if they're reluctant to work with you maybe that's why.

Maybe you should try the Liberal Democrats. They are after all supposedly a "federalist" party.

ENGLISH JEW

The ED's are after our own parliament as you well no, this is the first step towards independence. What we can't do right from the start is go all out for Independence, the English electorate would never go for it. We have to start small and build from there.
The web site does say alot about Scotland and the benefits that Scotland gets under the Barnett formula but don't forget that we are talking about a Unionist Government who still decides where taxes go.
Once we all have our independence then I don't give a damm if you have everything free, your paying for it yourselves so it won't have anything to do with us, however in order to keep Scotland labour, this government has thrown money after money after money and it's not on.
Rise your own taxes and everything is settled.
That is why I believe its in everyones interest to work together for we all have the same aim.
I don't however want to get into a discussion about Barnett, tax and subsidies as this will move us away from are hopefull goal of all working towards independence.
For those of you who aren't aware, the ED's are a party that incorporates all, we have people from the left and from the right, we are a parrty of national unity as we believe that a political coalition of views is the best way forward.
For those who have said that the ED's aren't up for Independence, well the vast majoirty of us want it, we just need to go carefully at this time.

azzuri

ENGLISH JEW

Before we get carried away with this scottish / english thing. Lets just take a step back and look at the problem

The problem that faces england today isn't one of the people of scotland, however it is Scottish / Welsh and English Westminster MP's. These are the real enemies and create the hatred that exists within England.

When you have Dr John Ried, Gordon Brown, that bloke called Darling elected to sit as MP's for Scotland and yet they can't vote on Scottish issues but they can make and force laws onto us English then this is what we dispise. When NU got Scots and Welsh Westminister MP's to vote on their side for Tution Fees, smoking, fox hunting ( to name a few ) for England, this is what grinds us.

We have no problem with like minded people similar to the ones on this forum as you are trying to sort your own house in order and break away from Nu Labour and Unionism.

That is why I came on to this forum, to build a new style relationship with real nationalists, nationalists who want self-determination, what the right for self-governance.

England is the only country in the EU that does not have its own parliament, england is the only country in the UK where its nationality isn't recognise. These and many more are what we are fighting for.

Lothian Sky

I have never met you EJ, but please listen to what people are trying to tell you. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

The fact that Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling are Scots by birth does not justify the blatant anti-Scottish xenophobia displayed on your website.
STOP blaming the Scots. As far as I'm concerned they are not Scots anyway, they're Brits. Unionists. What they do, they do for the union, and certainly not in my name. It's a shame you cant understand this, and pass it on to your friends in ED.

Show me where there are similar threads on this forum attacking the English? There aren't any.

Another thing, I think you'll find that most Scottish people just don't accept the claim that Scotland is subsidised, so your notion is falling on deaf ears. It's a proven unionist lie, designed to keep us tied to London.
Why do you agree with it? I thought you were a nationalist.

ENGLISH JEW

Look, I don't really want to go down the road of taxes etc as I've said it will take us away from what WE are all trying to achieve.

You know one of the main unionist lies is that if we all get our own parliaments then it will weaken the union and put people against people. The main reason why I came on here is to hopefully prove that this is a lie and that the hand of friendship is held out with the want to hopefully work together. As I've stated, all our countries can work together as we live more or less side by side.

In England we don't consider Brown, Blair, Reed and Co as British, we consider them as Scots, perhaps that something that we might need to change.

As I've openly stated, we are not against you people but when you hear people like Brown, Blair and Co state that they are proud Scotsmen then it does stick in our throats, it is however nothing to do with Scotland, more the fact that we have non English people deciding our fate.

Please don't confuse the posts on our site as being anti Scottish PEOPLE as we are not, what we are is ANTI the British Government that still governs us all in one way or another.

I have read with interest what people are saying to me on this forum and I believe that there is still a lot that the ED's can learn, you've been at it longer than us so we do have some catching up to do but I repeat, WE ARE NOT ANTI SCOTTISH. We just want what you want, the democratic right for self-determination

Aventinian

SF102

Aventinian

"Ok i know it's easy to say now we've nicked all ya oil but i was only young then"

Not to worry, we've nicked a good part of every piece of mineral wealth discovered in England for 300 years as well Wink

SLG

I would say that the first thing to learn from the movement in Scotland is that the Unionist media and establishment will use anything against you if you are perceived as a threat (which hopefully you soon will be Smile

). Absolutely anything said by the independence movement here is poured over for any slight element of anti-Englishness that might be used against it. I don't think there is the same fear of anti-Scottishness in England, but it could still be used against it. I would think that of more danger to the English movement would be any perceived general xenophobia.

I think that some of the folk in the EDP (or at least on it's forum) need to think a bit more about who and what they are fighting against. The fact that representatives of Scottish constituencies influence English legislation is a good point. The fact that anyone happens to be born in Scotland is not. As far as I know, in recent times Brown, Blair and Co have not stated that they are proud Scotsmen, the are proud Brits and should be attacked on that basis. From what I can see the EDP site seems to get the balance about right, but many on the forum seem to be a bit mixed up.

Whatever way you look at it, it does seem like a taken in England that Scotland is subsidised. Yes, we do get more per head in spend from the allocated spending (not total spending) so there is an element of truth in that. But as Niall's and other's research shows (http://ourscotland.myfreeforum.org/ftopic52.php) we are putting more in than we get out. I would say that there is enough uncertainty, due to the lack of transparency in the figure for there to be a lack of certainty either way though. So I don't think there can be any blame on anyone, just the Unionists that have their own agenda. Those that are neither Scottish nor English, but British. The SNP are making a big issue of the oil again due to the high price, but it is very far from the key argument. Similarly, for the EDP, any gain or loss that England makes from Scotland is going to be pretty small in terms of total English budget (much less important anyway compared to the total Scottish budget), so it shouldn't form the basis for any argument. What would happen if official figures came out showing that Scotland does subsidise England, would you lose a lot of support?

Out of interest, the English nationalist movement does seem to be on the up and in a strong position than ever, but are you able to tell us anything about EDP membership, or growth in membership in recent times? Just to give us an idea of how significant the EDP could be in English politics. There could be a huge amount of good will from Scotland and Wales towards the EDP if handled properly (of which your posting here is a very positive contribution IMO). I see that the EDP and English parliament in general seem to get some support in the local press in England, but what other sort of activities are the EDP involved in? Did someone not post a rally at Westminster for an English Parliament that only seemed to have a few dozen in attendance.

Just another idea, one of the problems that the SNP has is that it gets a lot less votes that the total support for Independence. A lot of folk support Independence, but not as a priority, so vote for other (Unionist) parties in support of other policies. Given this and that the UK electoral system itself makes it very difficult for a new party to get anyone elected, have you though about a non-party campaign that could set up a movement within each of the major parties to campaign internally and to come together for cross-party campaigning for an English Parliament?

SLG

SLG

Economist

I'm still having trouble with the our policies are for English devolution in the union.......but we really all want independence bit. You can't have it both ways IMHO.

If you are for independence why not campaign on this issue? Let's face it if England votes Tory by a majority of SEATS in the next election, the whole WLQ and funding argument will not be an issue any more, it will disappear off the radar and will hit your party and cause very badly. And the worst part will be Scotland and England will be no better off.

SLG

ENGLISH JEW

The people of Scotland should consider themselves very lucky, at least you where allowed the question on how you should be governed.
All we got down here was the North East Ref, thank god they turned it down.

What we want is not too disimilar to what you what in regards to Independence. We English want a national vote on whether or not we should have our own parliament, problem is that this won't happen under NU as it doesn't fit in the grand European plan that NU has. Their hole plan is divide and rule, break us up into 9 regions, each to have an assembly ( one that's never been voted for or had its politicans stand for an election too ).

A recent MORI poll issued stated that 41% of English people now want their own parliament and yet this government still refuses us the right for a national vote. Only one paper carried this news and yet more or less every paper in England carried the news the week after about the poll regarding Scottish Independence.

This one will make you smile - I've even heard that Brown will give up his Scottish seat just before the next GE and stand in England and will run on the ole Labour ticket that ensures that he'll get elected in some labour stronghold.

Who ever said we have democracy

Great debate guys, enjoying my time on here

SF102

SLG . . edited Smile

sorry

Economist

As their first aim, Plaid Cymru desire "full national status for Wales in the European Union", that seems straightforward enough to me.

Certainly the SNP started out as devolutionist, but let's face it the whole concept of independence was a very minor issue back then. It isn't now. The cards are on the table for the United Kingdom. I don't believe there is any excuse from shying away from that, now, if that is what the English Party believe in.

SLG

SLG

SLG

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"I don't see how they're any different from any other part of the UK. All parts of the UK have an overwhelming majority of Unionist politicians - if anything, Northern Ireland is the most nationalist parts of the UK being that the number of Sinn Fein/SDLP members are not too far off equal to the number of Unionists.

I would presume a conflict between the insignificant number of Ulster Nationalists and Irish Nationalists could arise, but it's no different that the possibility of disagreement between English and Cornish Nats. "

The difference is that the unionists and nationalists in NI also have a religious divide and its very unlikely the English and Cornish Nationalists will go around beating each other up, burning down houses/churches or planting bombs.

Cado

Hi EJ

Read your post yesterday though didn't reply - would appear tempers are getting a little fray already! Here are my thoughts.

I think it would help the ENP if it got beneath the skin of what drives Scots/Welsh nationalism - understand what it is and isn't. 'Nationalism' is one of those awkward words that mean different things to different people, it can also manifest itself in different ways depending on what drives it and how it is directed - Nationalism can be a very powerful force for change (just looking across world history), I think its incumbant on all those within any such movement to recognise what it is they may be stirring and ensuring the 'energy' is used positivily. Its needs to be used a wisely and for the right purpose IMO.

I feel I can easily understand what drives Scots/Welsh Nationalism - Scots Nationalism has been a movement which has be growing, evolving, maturing for around 40 years - the SNP were founded in the 60s based on feelings then. My point being what we have now has been a long time in the making. I think to many outside Scotland this issue has only become apparent now - due to present 'political arrangements', shall we say (I'll go into this later) - but I'd encourage those within the ENP to realise that the SNP has been on the go for 40 years - this sort of movement (one I presume you're now trying to emulate) doesn't grow on little transient details.

There is a far deeper philospophy and outlook at work here - there needs to be for a movement to grow for 40 years and reach the point where it is now firmly established and delivering results. Forget the SNP for a second - nationalism (note the small 'n') has been alive in Scotland for a long long time (centuries I'd argue) - it just hasn't been noticed, its only when things start stirring it that it becomes apparent - Devolution was granted on the back of a referendum - a lot more people than just SNP supporters voted for this.

I'll be honest and say I'm not sure what English Nationalism is! It is probably a bit of an anathema to us Scots (your possibly picking that up with the replies) - however I think I've understood a bit more over the last few months.

There are a number of reasons we find the concept confusing - the main one being (this was a previous view I had) we view the bulk of the British Government as being English - if ourselves and Wales left, by default you would have an English Government - therefore the thought of an English Nationalist movement seeking independence from Britian seems absolutly absurd to us - simply because we view Britian and England as one and the same thing. Ive now come to understand things are far more complex than that - but I'll work from a Scottish perspective at the moment.

I'm assuming the issues which drive English Nationalism number 3:

1) West Lothian Question
2) No. of Scots in Govt
3) Barnett

My advice is to ignore these. I'll explain why.

These issues will be transient and short lived - I doubt they'll last more than a few year - Scottish/Welsh Nationalism has been 40 years in the making - the issues that cwould appear to concern the ENP will only last probably no more than 5 years or so.

1) This has only come about due to the last election result - it existed before then but because of the Labour majority it was never an issue, even if all the Scots didn't vote a majority was still attainable. It has only been since Labours cut in their majority that West Lothian has reared its head - there will be a general election in 4 or so years. West Lothian will be put to bed simply because a new Tory Govt (assuming they win) will stop it, also the assumed majority would render the West Lothian issue redundant.

2) Again - this will only last till the next general election at most. I'd suggest it may be best to ignore the London sabre rattling and propaganda for the moment - just view it as one of those things. Even if there is no change to the present set-up it is highly unlikely that there will ever be as many Scots in Govt again. This is a transient issue - I don't think there is enough meat in this issue for you to build a whole movement on.

3) Again - one of those things. It existed under the Tories, they never sought to ammend it - ask yourself why it has only become an issue now? Why not 5 or 10 or 20 years ago, why now?

I would suggest these are the main issues which drive much of the ill feeling in England - the first two are transient and will not last beyond the next election, I doubt Barnett will either. If your looking to build a sustainable political movement you (I suggest) will need to found it on some 'deeper' issues. If you build it on something that'll be gone in a few years - then so will you.

The total number of Scots/Welsh/NI MPs can't number more than (guessing) a 100 or so. If you have an English Parliament - how different in character would it be to the present British Parliament. The Scots/Welsh/NI MPs don't form any voting groups, the bulk are from the main parties. This is one of the reasons many Scots etc will view the concept of English Nationalism as odd - since it is broadly English MPs that fill the Parliament - therefore minus ourselves et al - your left with an English Parliament - do you see why we may find it odd? (ENP) like I say, we view Britian/England as one and the same thing.

Understand what it is that drives Nationalism in Scotland and Wales and I think you'll find a huge amount of concepts that will ring true in England also - it is fundementally a movement built around 'power back to the people'. THIS IS WHAT DRIVES NATIONALISM (emphasising that) - it is EMPHATICALLY NOT anti englisness - ie yourself, a chap in devon, essex, the malverns whereever - it is a desire to bring power back to the grass root - England doesn't feature in this - are sole focus is on the failings in Westminster.

However the London Society set (which pull all the string in the UK) have done very well to portray the SNP as an anglophobic organisation - simply because it suits them to alienate us - because we have rejected them. They're a spiteful crowd. The problem being most of us here can see through all this - those in Engand can't because you're only hearing the one side of it.

This is what I'd suggest the ENP consider - get beneath what drives Nationalism here and elsewhere - you'll find a lot in it which I think will inspire you (IMO). Abandon any policy/view which is based on NEGATIVE things - this creates very negative nationalism ie the anti Scottish stuff. This has been put about mainly by the London crowd in order to turn England against Scotland - I hear its happening a lot (some one from Cumbria told me recently that a back lash is forming). This is the London crowd causing problems - don't be taken in by it. Yes, there are issues but they'll be gone in a few years - to short term to build a movement. Also they're all negative issues - I'd suggest you look to positive issues.

Dialogue is good. I should say I'm not a member of the SNP, I'm just a lay member of society with an opinion.

Forget the negative stuff - look to build on positive things.

Aventinian

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"People who honestly hold a certain identity will do a lot to protect it. I believe English nationalism attacks Cornish identity , just as I believe Scottish nationalism attacks a British identity."

I disagree with you there, people hold a variety of different facets that make up their identity, it doesnt necessarilly mean they are based on attacking what they are not (although there is a significant proportion of people that do consider things that way - for example white purists and so on) but that doesnt mean that these facets of identity should not be represented where apporopriate - inmo thats what leads to conflict

"Hence statements like those from that chap in the Orange Order in Scotland along the line of 'we will start a civil war'."

jeez - who was that guy? do you have a link or anything to expand on that?

Lothian Sky

EJ
In answer to the original question, I'd love to see English nationalists working with the SNP and Plaid, but I think they need to clean up their act first. First impressions are that they are blatantly anti-Scottish. These sentiments may not be shared by all, but that's what stands out for me, as the comments go unchecked. I does your movement no favours, it just stokes up hatred, and removes the common ground we should be sharing. Lose the nutters in your movement, and try seeing things from our point of view. We've had 300 years of cultural domination, under-representation and unwelcome English influence, so we know what it feels like. You've had a few years of over representation by a handful of careerist Anglo-Scots. Hardly worth getting out of bed for in comparison.

As for Brown saying he's proud to be Scottish... erm.... are we talking about the same person? Shocked

Anyway, welcome to the board Wink

SLG

IF Convenor

I think Cado and a few others could do with a history lesson.

The Scottish National Party was formed in 1933, by the amalgamation of two older political parties. These were the National Party of Scotland and the Scots National League, or Scottish Party. These, in turn, had come about as a result of splits in the Scottish Home Rule Association, founded in 1918.

The SHRA was itself the inheritor of a pre-First World War home rule movement.

The SNP's first MP, Dr. Robert McIntyre, was elected to the Westminster Parliament in a byelection in Motherwell in February 1945. The seat was lost in the General Election later that same year and the SNP did not win another until Winnie Ewing's famous victory in the Hamilton byelection of 1967.

Aventinian

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"Oh some daft "Loyalist" nobody. Here's a link to the BBC coverage - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/1428027.stm

As you notice it was a good few years ago now. I wonder whatever became of their PR campaign... "

Thanks for the link Smile

I cant imagine their PR campaign was very successful.

Cymro

English Jew, one thing strikes me from some of your posts. You don't seem to understand what the current devolution for Scotland and Wales means. With every due respect but if you are a Senior Member of the EDP, then its quite frightening how little you know about this subject if this is what you aspire to for England.

For one thing the devolution settlements for Scotland and for Wales are very different. Where as Scotland have a Parliament with Primary law making powers and to vary its taxation levels on certain issues. Wales has an Assembly and can't make its own laws, it only has Secondary Law Powers and can't touch tax. So any law for Wales has to start from Westminster. Westminster then can decide whether to allow the Welsh Assembly to alter the law to suit ourselves. Tuition Fees is an example of this. When tuition fees where debated recently in Westminster, Welsh MP's had everyright to vote in that as it involves England AND Wales, part of the act of law included devolving the right to the Welsh Assembly.

By all means stop Welsh and Scottish MP's voting on England Only measures. But many do involve these other countries, more so Wales than Scotland. At the same time English MP's should stay out of Wales acts, which they don't - look at the measure for greater power to the Welsh Assembly going back and forth between the House of Commons and the House of Laws now.

And care to explain your stance on Monmouth ?

azzuri

IF Convenor

Another thing the bear in mind, EJ: due to the way the UK is funded, things which on the surface only affect England do, in fact, have a major impact on the rest of the UK. Barnett dictates a lot of Scotland, Wales & N.I.'s funding as a percentage of funding in England. If a measure for "England only" has an impact on funding, that impact will be felt throughout the UK and so MPs from outside England have every right to get involved for the sake of their own constituents.

Blackleaf

Blackleaf

Blackleaf

Lothian Sky

What are you on about Blackleaf?
Newsflash:
England used to belong to the Welsh!!!!!!!

elidir

You got there before me Lothian Sky. Nowhere in the Atlantic Archipelago was yours "...to begin with.." blackleaf. Your begginings are with the Norman French conquest and occupation and its cultural influence upon the Germanic invaders and what emerged from that clash. Gwent was a Welsh kindom before the english existed anywhere and I beleive Monmouth was imposed by the pre-english Normans. You'r claim is ridicilous. But it is instructive of the english democrats and their true agenda, which is a pity as devolution for england would be progressive: however, continued colonial claims cannot be viewed as anything but reactionary; and, in this case - atavistic.

Man you need to check history yourself not invent it as you go.

Masaryk

People can argue about the nitty-gritty, I'm sure there are differences between Plaid Cymru and the SNP. But, I agree with English Jew - i think the Celts should work with the ED.

The media will attack us, people will attack the fact that ED are not left wing enough or whatever, but if England is a right wing country then that's their affair. I'll tell you, in the final analasys the English voters who will support Scottish and Welsh independence will be the white van drivers of Essex so disparaged and not the 'liberal' English CNDers and left-wingers who the Celtic nationalists are so fond of.

We should be working on a general agreement that a Britain of three independent nation states would be a good thing. There would be a good deal of cooperation and I dare say harmonisation of policy but it would give each nation parity of esteem. I dare say to that it would heal a lot of the difficulty in NIreland.

Rememeber, it's not the Balkanisation of Britain but the Scandinavianisation of Britain. Very Happy

Cado

Masaryk has touched on a point about how different 'National' parties form and grow. The whole point of 'Nationalism' is to act as a uniting force - not a dividing force. The clear problem with politics is that people inevitably have their own political views/loyalties etc. If a National party comes into being that simply allies itself with one side (ie policy etc) it will only create a division and actually do the 'cause' more damage.

This is possibly a failure of the ENP (based on a few skims through their website) - in that they're trying to be too detailed too quickly. They're aim is 'English Nationalism' - in order to do this they need to focus on the deeper pyche - by generating such specific policies they're adding another 'conditional' for people to consider. ie for them to support the ENP they need to be both nationalist AND a supporter of policy X.

For a 'Nationalist' movement to become mainstream is needs to sat broadly on the centre of public opinion whereever it is - plus it needs to be broad enough that the fringes left out are so minor/extreme that they don't get much support anyway.

Therefore the SNP and Plaid Cymru are the parties they are - very Centreist in respect of the constituents they aim to represent. Also it helps in the fact that there aren't too many extremes within Scots/Welsh societies.

The challange the ENP faces is that England is quiet diverse (indiginous population). From Carlisle to Kent to Cornwall....and everthing in between. It'll be hard to find one thread of 'English' opinion that runs through everything to use - possibly the reason immigration is big with them, one of the few national issues within England - thereafter there is too much difference to easily and quickly build some 'one' movement as such - at present anyway I'd argue.

Masaryk has the point that it is probably 'White Van Man' and the rural places that offer the most fertile ground for support - since these are sections of society that are most likely to demand to be left alone. They're a bit more reactionary. Thereafter traditional 'liberals' - since it would be something that is in accordance with their political philosophy anyway.

ENGLISH JEW

Look, I've said it before within this thread and I'll say it again. i didn't come on here to debate the rights and wrongs of SNP / EDP ( Not the ENP ) and PC. I came on here to offer a hand of potential friendship to likeminded people who's objectives are more or less the same as mine

I have not mention, in detail about Barnett and other stuff as that's not area that WE should go down at this time. We should try and unite and only together can we force the Brits out once and for all.

You've got a great big flame going and we've just got a spark but by helping one another out then we could both fan the flames of independence and once and for we can be rid of one another forever Laughing

Whether you agree with the EDP stance on things or not, our goal is not too disimilar than your's and that's why we should work together. There is some anti-scottish feeling going around but we are trying to cut it out from our forums but i don't think we'll ever get it all. But look past that and you'll see that the vast majority of us want to work with you.

Cymro

Blackleaf, I like it how you tell me to look at my history yet feel you should stop looking further than 1800's! Look further.

Long before this Monmouth was Welsh, and even during these times people in Monmoth (appart from the Colonists) couldn't see why it was now England. Look at parts of England bordering Wales before you make stupid claims about Celts nibbling away at England - Shropshire full of places like Hengoed, Gobowen, Croesoswallt, Morda etc all of which at one time where Welsh (and still have indiginous Welsh speakers), Hereford it's self comes from the name Henffordd (its still called this in Welsh) which means 'Old Road' and for us living in North East Waes, the natural road to South Wales is indeed down through Hereford. Gloucoster also has strong reletively recent Welsh links.

So infact it is the English that have nibbled away at what is Wales. They even tried it with Wrexham - had a campaign fronted by local Magistrate or something as recent as the 1960's to make Wrexham part of England.

ENGLISH JEW

s***e, we wouldn't want Wrexham - you ever been there.
that's one place that the Welsh can happily keep.

don't get worried about the ole Monmouthshire thing, there's plans in the background that will really make you smile

Cymro

I work in Wrexham so yes I've been there once or twice! It's true that in the 50's and 60's a group of people with support from some organisation in England campaigned to have Wrexham recognised as a part of England.

Thankfully they lost.

Now, off you go you Deviant! Very Happy

Aventinian

I just hope no poor buggers from Wrexham are reading this.

Cymro

Masaryk

forget Wrexham - and get back to the point EJ was trying to raise. Will people stop going off on tangents and trying to score points.

Cymro

It's not a tangent, it's a progression in the discussion. EJ came on, claiming to be fairly high up within the EDP and made comments full of inaccuracies. One of the problems with the EDP and why no co-operation has happened thus far with PC and the SNP is its position on Monmouth and Cornwall. And it was too these I was refereing.

I want to see a strong EDP, but a EDP which also knows whats what.

ENGLISH JEW

Cymro

None of what I have said is wrong, I have studied politics and more importantly nationalism for a number of years. Please point out to me where YOU feel I've got it wrong.

In regards to Monmouth and Cornwall - Cornwall is a part of England and more importantly the vast majority of people who live there want it to stay in England. Cornwall already have a county council, why try and create something new when with proper management of the existing structure then Cornwall would be run properbly.

Monmouth - Do you know your history or have you forgotten that Monmouthshire used to be part of England until the then government ( in about 73 i think but will stand corrected ) in some sort of midnight deal gave Monmouthshire to Wales in order to surpress people like you - Nationalists.

So my friend, while I might not have ALL my facts correct the fundermentals are right.

I suggest that you stop worring about Monmouthshire and Cornwall ( in England ) and get your own house in order.

And while we are on it, please explain to me why Mr Salmond went down to England to talk about regionalisation for Cornwall - Again and with respect to the SNP members on this forum, doesn't he have enough to do getting Scotland ready for Independence ( to which the EDP fully supports )

elidir

I don't think anybody in Wales is worried over Monmouth becoming english as that is not going to happen. There is no demand from within Wales for monmouth to be english therefore nothing is going to change.

Lothian Sky

Cymro

Lothian Sky

So... in the immortal words of Still Game......get it right up ye! Smile

ENGLISH JEW

Cymro

What a load of s***e you've spouted.

Who exactly doesn't see Cornwall as part of England - A small band of people to whom live there. If there was a vote in Cornwall tomorrow to break ties with England or not, I suggest that 90% of people would want to retain the ties with England.

In regards to Monmouthshire - Check out the Domesday book and youl'll see it quoted in there as being part of England and I'm sure ( although be it not a 100% ) that at that time Wales wasn't a nation, just a number of small areas.

So I don't give a flying s***e how much you have studied or what letters you've got after your name, you have your view and I have mine but don't preach to me about NATIONALISM because i am more than aware of what that is.

Perhaps what is more the point is that people like you can't really handle the fact that nationalism in England is flying and growing. We have an open invitation to SNP / PC to work together as to some extent we are working towards the same goals. The sooner Scotland and Wales go, the better it will be for England.Don't take this the wrong way but I can't wait for you lot to go.

We have made good contacts with PC and are working with them in a number of areas that once it comes out into the public domain will make people really smile.

So my little Welsh friend, I will not post again on this thread as it is not my intention to get into a argument about the rights and wrongs etc. I didn't join this forum to argue or debate England,Scotland,Wales. I joined it so that we could get some co-operation with our respective countries.

SHALOM my friends, SHALOM

Very Happy

azzuri

elidir

"So my little Welsh friend.."

You want co-operation? My My, do you think this is the way to get it? I've found that ethnic bellittlements are usually not used on these boards. Do you intend to introduce such language EJ?

Incidentally, the Normans (including Richard and John) were not English - they were French.

"..don't preach to me about NATIONALISM because i am more than aware of what that is."

No doubt but what type of nationalism do YOU preach?

"Don't take this the wrong way but I can't wait for you lot to go."

Please explain the right way to "take it"?

"and I'm sure ( although be it not a 100% ) that at that time Wales wasn't a nation, just a number of small areas."

You are incorrect, and I'm not quite sure what you mean as a nation is its people and its culture. However, It was the english who were yet to emerge in the Atlantic Archipelago as a nation, as the germans were yet to be influenced by the French culture the Normans brought with them during their conquest and occupation: just read Chaucer - he's very good and you'll see this linguistic and cultural emergence in the german/french lexicon he uses. In fact I think the modern english lexicon is at least one third french.

By this period Welsh literature was already 600 years old as it was the Romans who began the concomitant process in the atlantic archipelago that began the development of modern Welsh and the modern Welsh nation in the 6th century. Nothing english or norman or indeed germanic/franco/anglo predates Wales or the Welsh people and therefore your argument is unsustainable. Indeed Welshness, Irishness, Scotissness, Cornishness, germanic, french, norman etc.. all these predate englishness. The english do not have primacy in these islands.

I've got friends who live in Monmouth and you'll have a hard time calling them english or anyone else there for that matter. I'd enjoy seeing it though! Thank you for showing your true colours!

Cymro

Wolf of Badenoch

Cymro

IF Convenor

I can see what's in it for the English Democrats... respectability, benefit of experience... but what good would a hook-up do PC or the SNP? I'd like to hear your opinion.

ENGLISH JEW

What's in it for the ED's - Well where do I start.

There is a degree of admiration that exists from us nationalists in England for what you guys have done up here. We believe that in the best interest of all of us, then some co-operation would be benefical for all. This is the main reason why I came on this forum in the first place, to build up a relationship with some of you and to share ideals and lessons.

We have a lot to learn and are prepared to do that, you guys have been on your road a lot longer than us and therefore could teach us a thing or two.

We want the end to the British State although we can not come all out and say this yet, it's not a case of not wanting to but for us we have the issue of Britain / England and a lot of people to whom would come over to us just need to be nudged rather than pushed along the lines of the end of the union - I suppose it's horses for courses.

We have engaged PC and have quite a lot of plans together, there is some very exciting stuff taking place next year and both parties are really working hard with each other to ensure that we both maximise these opportunties.

We have not as yet had detailed dialogue with SNP although this will happen as we have had a very supportive message from your top man who has openly stated his desire to see an English Parliament.

We hope to be allowed to march with you on your rally on 30th September, I think if you can get nationalists from England and Wales marching with you then it could well give you a lot more publicity. The possible site of English and Welsh flags flying among all your scots ones would be a great site to see and I think it would really s**t up the pro unionist politicans in Hollyrood and Westminster.

There is a huge community growing in England for self-determination and although things have gone slowly, things are now taking a pace. The ED's have only been around for less than 4 years and the issues that we stand for are getting out into the public domain.

However, some of you have visited our own nationalist forum and have commented on the anti-scottish stuff that's on there. We are not anti scottish people as our two counties have been interlinked for many years and we have fought side by side with each other for decades. Our issue is with the British State and the unionist bastards that run our country.

Hopefully this has outlined What's in it for the ED's

IF Convenor

As I said, I can see what's in it for the EDs, my question was what's in it for PC & SNP? I can't really see any benefit for those parties and I can actually see several disadvantages.

Reluctant Hero

Would a strong independence movement in England not further Scottish and Welsh independence like what the SNP and PC want?

The more people shouting for English independence, the greater the chances that Scotland and Wales will get their wish of self autonomy?[/quote]

Cado

I'm curious EJ - why do you place no value in the existing parties within England? ie Conservatives, Labour, LibDems.

The SNP exist around this one primary concept of independence, as do PC. As such English Independence becomes automatic - its a default.

If 3 parties are together in a union, and two wish to leave the union and do there own thing - the 3rd remaining party, by default, finds itself in the same situation.

Virtually all the Tory MPs represent English constituencies - if anything they could be called an English party, the majority of Labour and the LibDems also.

Yes, they may be members of a British Parliament but all that is is a forum for those individuals elected by their constituents - the constituencies of England will presumably survive (prehaps boundary changes etc) - the MPs will still be their constituency MPs, these MPs will still have their loyalty to certain political views, as will their electorates.

Remove Scots and Welsh MPs from the British forum, what is left is an English forum - independence.

As it stands the Tories seem more than eagre that we should go our own way, the LibDems probably won't have a view one way or the other (being LibDems).

Why do you feel the need to have an English national Party (using lower case 'n' there) - when it would appear you already have one - the Tories, and by default what ends up being left of the others (ie the bulk of them).

I'm being numeric and mechanical here - why do you feel you need to compete with, say, the Tories, when they hold (i presume) a pretty same outlook on things as you do?

Should the English Democrats and SNP work closer together

Re: Should the English Democrats and SNP work closer togethe