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Pragmatic Pict
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Should there be more national languages within the UK?Reading history you could argue that in an ideal British Isles devoid of worries about cost the UK technically could have more national languages.
Obviously this would only include ones still spoken cornish, welsh, gaelic.
This could include all of the UK due to the fact that before the English language arrived (in its early form) the early langauges of welsh and cornish and gaelic were once spoken fairly widely.
The main reason though is that these languages would get equal rights and why is english allowed to be the national language of Wales/Cymru yet Welsh isn't.
It jus does not seem fair especially now when the government in England tolerates and welcomes the millions of peoples and cultures let into Britain yet the older languages are still legally treated like dirt when they shouldn't be.
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Aventinian
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Are they? Every government document is available in Welsh and it is in effect equal to English in all practice in Wales and even in some ways beyond.
Scots Gaelic too has quite a status these days.
But it should be remembered that the people who speak these languages universally (at least to my knowledge) speak English too. So why should the government bother spending huge sums of taxpayers' money on making forms available in, eg, Gaelic when they aren't necessary?
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IF Convenor
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It's called respect, Av.
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Pragmatic Pict
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| Aventinian wrote: | Are they? Every government document is available in Welsh and it is in effect equal to English in all practice in Wales and even in some ways beyond.
Scots Gaelic too has quite a status these days.
But it should be remembered that the people who speak these languages universally (at least to my knowledge) speak English too. So why should the government bother spending huge sums of taxpayers' money on making forms available in, eg, Gaelic when they aren't necessary? |
I agree with your first paragraph completely and yes the situation is getting much better but if you look at the law it still can be illegal to speak welsh in the private sector in Wales(though I haven't heard of a prosecution as it would be silly) . All I am saying is the government should be open to even more change.
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elidir
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In practice, Pragmatic Pict, Welsh does not have the same status as it is often difficult or impossible to get services in our language in our own country as there is quite deliberate sabotage from within the administration and provision of many services: e.g. there are Gov. departments (like the DSS) who constantly refuse to provide a consistent and adequate service in Welsh even though this is illegal under the Welsh Lang. Act of 1993. There are unfortunately been no prosecutions here either even though they would be deserving. Neither is it correct to suggest that Welsh is equal in status to english, even the Law society provides no Welsh language forms. This will begin to change now though as a distinctive Welsh system of law is returned to our country; but o so slowly!
This is why we need a new Lang. act to close any get out clauses that are ruthlessly exploited by the anti-Welsh brigade. How about one that places a responsibilty on gov. to meet the huge demand for Welsh lang. education, both amongst parents for their children and amongst adults. Equal and universal access would be equality in my mind.
The economic argument is seductive as it presents a prejudice in the guise of prudence and fiscal probity as well as attempting to establish cultural hierarchy. It is a victorian and supremacistic idea, it is rarely used these days in Wales (even by Labour); it is, as I have said, one of those arguments that have been traditionally and pragmatically utilised to shroud other prejudices and to divide and rule a population where there is linguistic divesity due to external opression and the continued propagation of the beleif that one culture is superior or more deserving of supposedly limited resources than others.
It must be noted that Welsh speaking areas of Wales have Welsh as the majority lang. so major/minority dichotomy reverses according to local cultural conditions: I suppose, therefore, if we were to be fiscally anal we could insist that english translations - for the english speaking minority in Welsh speaking locales - are indeed a waste of time and taxpayers money; assuming, of course that we wanted to associate ourselves with the same logic and underlying motives of the economic argument.
It is, of course impossibly to quantify languages in monetary terms nor establish worth as a relative value somehow dependant upon establishing an arbitary ratio of number of speakers to money spent.
I agree with you IF Convenor, respect is very important and, of course the right to speak one's own indigenous language is called a civil and human right: the approval of no one outside (or inside) of our country is sought or needed for Welsh people to speak Welsh as the same is true for everyone else. This position needs no justification merely stating.
I'm glad to hear that the status of Gaelic is increasing: languages are part of a country's resources; cultural, social and psychological, and impact heavily and positively on a nations identity; both of itself and as viewed from outside. It is instructive, for example, that the existence of the Welsh language is an important identifying fact of Welshness for the majority of non-Welsh speakers who, despite the promotion of some kinds of stereotypes and the attempt to condition responses and attitudes to the contrary are broadly supportive of "OUR" language - in that it is also "theirs".
It's interesting you raise these issues Pragmatic Pict as I've just heard a number of Gaelic song being sung in a folk festival in England where I was singing in Welsh and people were most positive and appreciative to hear some of the scope of the languages of the Atlantic Archipelago: it was beautifull to experience another living Celtic language used. Perhaps it's goverments who seek cultural homogeniety who have a problem with this diversity, watch out for Brown's british bulldog (or should that be british bullshit) agenda to try and save the union, and, of course his own prime ministerial dreams.
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Cymro
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| Pragmatic Pict wrote: | | Aventinian wrote: | Are they? Every government document is available in Welsh and it is in effect equal to English in all practice in Wales and even in some ways beyond.
Scots Gaelic too has quite a status these days.
But it should be remembered that the people who speak these languages universally (at least to my knowledge) speak English too. So why should the government bother spending huge sums of taxpayers' money on making forms available in, eg, Gaelic when they aren't necessary? |
I agree with your first paragraph completely and yes the situation is getting much better but if you look at the law it still can be illegal to speak welsh in the private sector in Wales(though I haven't heard of a prosecution as it would be silly) . All I am saying is the government should be open to even more change. |
It's not illegal to speak Welsh in the Private Sector, it's just that companies aren't legally obliged to accept that the Welsh language exists as the first language and the natural language for 1000's of people in Wales.
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Aventinian
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| elidir wrote: | | e.g. there are Gov. departments (like the DSS) who constantly refuse to provide a consistent and adequate service in Welsh even though this is illegal under the Welsh Lang. Act of 1993. There are unfortunately been no prosecutions here either even though they would be deserving. |
Without looking at the Act, I doubt you can prosecute under it. You could quite easily bring an action for judicial review and if this is indeed the case, I am surprised that no one has tried it.
| Quote: | | It is, of course impossibly to quantify languages in monetary terms nor establish worth as a relative value somehow dependant upon establishing an arbitary ratio of number of speakers to money spent. |
Speak for yourself. As a taxpayer, I'm not willing to write blank cheques so that people can have forms in whatever languages they feel like. While I am not unfond of the Celtic languages of the British Isles, I don't think they should be a charity case - particularly not when we have terrible problems with funding in our police forces and health service.
To be frank though, I don't think a few translated forms are going to bankrupt anybody.
| Quote: | | Perhaps it's goverments who seek cultural homogeniety who have a problem with this diversity, watch out for Brown's british bulldog (or should that be british bullshit) agenda to try and save the union, and, of course his own prime ministerial dreams. |
The government of this country have made huge efforts to preserve the locally spoken minority languages here. You seem to be stuck quite firmly in the 19th century if that's your opinion of them.
I don't think anyone in government, Gordon Brown included, wants to see an end to Welsh or Gaelic. And it would seem that "cultural homogeniety" these days is only a tool used to harass our immigrant population.
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elidir
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Yes that's right Cymro but lets hope that will change soon as the false arguments and misrepresentations that support such attitudes are gradually expunged and replaced.
I have told you before aventian I do not respond to slanderers.
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Neil
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| Quote: | | if you look at the law it still can be illegal to speak welsh in the private sector in Wales |
This is a misuse of the English language. It may be quite possible for a boss to fire somebody if he insists in only answering in Welsh (or Elvish or Klingon) but he can't arrest him.
This is not "leagly treating the older languages like dirt" - the claim on which this thread is based - it is merely treating them like languages which is what they are. Scotland spends £20 million annually on Gaelic which is, in theory, a subsidy to Gaels from the rest of us & in practice a subsidy to Gaelic teachers & government nuisances from the rest of us.
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SLG
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I don't agree that it's a subsidy. It's just the expense associated with allowing the language to be used. E.g. If NHS24 flyers are printed in Gaelic does that count as subsidy to the Gaelic language? But are the English language flyers a subsidy to the English language?
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Aventinian
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I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the point, and I believe 'subsidy' is a very poor word to use for the distribution of taxation at the best of times, but there is a distinction: the English language is necessary for written communication in Scotland. The Gaelic language is not, as there are no monoglot speakers of it.
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