mairead
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Stone of DestinyTen years today since the stone of Destiny which was taken to Westminster by King Edward 1st of England, was returned to Scotland although whether it is the real stone is still greatly debated.
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SLG
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So does anyone know where the real stone is? Now would be a good time.
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Avatar
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Im sure I remember a story saying when when it was originally stolen it was hid in a wall somewhere. Couldn't they run tests on the one we have to check and make sure its real?
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Wolf of Badenoch
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| SLG wrote: | | So does anyone know where the real stone is? Now would be a good time. |
Ave telt this story afore oan here ahm sure,onyways, if ye want tae ken aboot ra Stane o Destiny ma wee boy seems tae ken a helluva lot aboot it.
Last year when he wis in P6 they got taken tae see ra Stane at the castle for a topic they waur daein,noo ra guide fae ra castle wis giein it the big spiel tae ra bairns and ra teachers when ma boy says tae him " Dae ye believe in real Scottish history?" tae which ra guide says "Aye" tae then be telt by ma boy "Weel ye`ll ken that that stane isnae ra real stane o destiny then",ra guide says" Whaur is ra real stane then wee smart guy",ra wee smart guy telt him "Somewhaur in Scotland." Ra guide wisnae happy when ra teachers had a laugh by aw acoonts.
Git that right up ye then so called Edinburgh castle history guide,taken tae ra cleaners by a 10 year auld.
If a get ony mair information ootae ma boy aboot ra whauraboots ae ra real stane i`ll let yees ken,micht be a while mind hes no giein much awa.
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mairead
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Hiya Wolfie, Nice to see you back.
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Wolf of Badenoch
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| mairead wrote: | | Hiya Wolfie, Nice to see you back. |
Aye aye mairead,thank ye kindly. 
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Lord Pitsligo
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| Avatar wrote: | | Im sure I remember a story saying when when it was originally stolen it was hid in a wall somewhere. Couldn't they run tests on the one we have to check and make sure its real? |
As someone who studied geology, I can say that yes, we could get a very good idea of where the rock comes from. Perthshire sandstone I'd say, if I had to make a guess 
I know some people have theorised that the original stone was a meteorite. The old accounts of the stone certainly fit the description of a meteorite.
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azzuri
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...with some sort of celtic knot carvings in it, apparently.
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Babygael
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Celtic aliens?  
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Corby Boy
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The auld legend goes that the Abbott of Scone hid the true stone from Edward Longshanks (it was originally from Tara in Ireland), and produced it on the proclomation of Robert the Bruce. He was duly crowned on it. On Roberts death bed, he bade Angus Og MacDonald to spirit it away after his son's coronation (David Bruce). This happened and Angus died not long after.
So, ask someone in clan MacDonald, whaur's yon stane, ma friends?
Other theory the Knights Templar, protected by Bruce, are guarding it until a new King can be found to sit on Scotland's throne.
So, Western Isles or Roslin or some such, take ya pick!
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Holebender
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The problem with the Knights Templar story is that Scotland had a whole line of legitimate Kings after Bruce and was safe from English aggression (at least in the years immediately after Bruce) so why wasn't the stone produced then? Wouldn't it have been a great propoganda coup to unveil the stone and publicly hold a coronation after the English had gone to all the trouble of taking a fake down to Westminster Abbey? No, the Knichties story doesn't stand up.
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Blackadder
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The Stone of Destiny originally came from Egypt and is inscribed with heiroglyphs. It was brought to Ireland by the Tuatha de Danaan, a Celtic tribe that descended from the Celt mercenaries at the Court of the Pharaohs. Known as the Lia Fail (although there is another stone called that in Ireland) and Jacob's Pillow, "clach-na-cinneamhain", "clach Sgàin" and the Tanist Stone, the real stone was hidden from the marauding English army of Edward I (who referred to himself as the "Hammer of the Scots). The real stone is still hidden. The lump of rock in Edinburgh Castle .... is a fake!
The real stone was looked after by the Clan Dewar, Gaelic ‘Deoireach’, who were like a caste of hereditary priests to the King of Scots. It is believed they spirited the stone away to either a remote highland cave or to the Islands, possibly the Holy Isle of Iona, an island sacred to the Celt druids long before Christianity claimed it!
It's highly likely the stone iself is of polished black basalt, a stone highly favoured by Egyptians ... and the ends were carved into lotus fronds. Scrolls were more a Roman achitectural feature.
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mairead
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And the lump of rock in Edinburgh castle is alleged to be the covering of an ancient lavatory.
Does my heart good to think of all the 'British' kings and queens who were crowned over a toilet seat.
I believe the stone is still hidden and who knows it might even reappear when Scotland stands as a nation again.
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Holebender
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Again, I have to ask; if the stone was hidden away for safe keeping, why wasn't it produces as soon as Scotland's independence was secured in the 14th Century? Why not get it out of hiding and hold a grand coronation for Robert I as soon as the Treaty of Edinburgh-Northampton was signed?
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agentmancuso
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I've got some impressive lumps of concrete in the garden that your all welcome to if you'd like to sculpt a new Stone of Destiny.
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mairead
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Holebender.
I have no idea why the stone was not produced at these times, but I daresay it could have had something to do with the fear of it another attempt at stealing it.. Mind you, you do raise a good point here and have set me wondering the same.
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Blackleaf
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The stone is now at Edinburgh Castle, but will be taken down to Westminster Abbey, temporarily, whenever a new monarch is crowned....
On Christmas Day 1950, a group of four Scottish students (Ian Hamilton, Gavin Vernon, Kay Matheson and Alan Stuart) took the Stone from Westminster Abbey for return to Scotland.
In the process of removing it from the Abbey, they broke it into two pieces. After hiding the greater part of the stone with gypsies in Kent for a few days, they risked the road blocks on the border and returned to Scotland with this piece, which they had hidden in the back of a borrowed car, along with a new accomplice John Josselyn. The smaller piece was similarly brought north a little while later. This journey involved a break in Leeds, where a group of sympathetic students and graduates took the fragment to Ilkley Moor for an overnight stay, accompanied by renditions of "On Ilkla Moor Baht 'at." (a popular English folk song sung in the Yorkshire dialect)
The Stone was then passed to a senior Glasgow politician who arranged for it to be professionally repaired by Glasgow stonemason Robert Gray.
A major search for the stone had been ordered by the British Government, but this proved unsuccessful. Perhaps assuming that the Church would not return it to England, the stone's custodians left it on the altar of Arbroath Abbey, on 11 April 1951, in the safekeeping of the Church of Scotland. Once the London police were informed of its whereabouts, the Stone was returned to Westminster. Afterwards, rumours circulated that copies had been made of the Stone, and that the returned Stone was not in fact the original.
Returned to Scotland
In 1996, in a symbolic response to growing dissatisfaction among Scots at the prevailing constitutional settlement, the British Conservative Government decided that the Stone should be kept in Scotland when not in use at coronations, and on 3 July 1996 the Stone was returned to Scotland, and on 15 November 1996, after a handover ceremony at the border between representatives of the Home Office and of the Scottish Office, it was transported to Edinburgh Castle where it remains. Provision has been made to transport the stone to Westminster Abbey when it is required there for future coronation ceremonies. There was much comment of course that the stone being transferred was not the real stone at all, but a replica which had taken its place either in ancient times or in the 1950s.
wikipedia.org
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Lord Pitsligo
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As this thread has the perfect title, I'll just jump in here.
I've just watched the film "The Stone of Destiny". Although its certainly fictionalised in places, its very enjoyable, and I recommend it to everyone.
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Stevie
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I just hope the Scots have the stones to fulfill their own destiny.
I also wish people would stop writing in this 'Oor Wuillie' bastardised Scots English and just write proper sentences if they can.
Well, it's a wish...
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Morph
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The thing is the stone is a symbol. If the 'fake'one allows us to gain a bit of publicity for independance then i think it is just as good as the original (which by the way is in my downstairs cupboard) 
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Lord Pitsligo
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| Morph wrote: | | The thing is the stone is a symbol. If the 'fake'one allows us to gain a bit of publicity for independance then i think it is just as good as the original (which by the way is in my downstairs cupboard) |
Is that the original that never left Scotland, or the original they didn't return after it was recovered from Westminster Abbey?
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Morph
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The problem is no one knows. It depends who you talk to. More than likely the switch would have happened after it had been taken from Westminster Abbey in the 50's.
As i say the main thing i feel now is to use it as a focal point for independence because if we get it i would prefer a republic to a monarchy anyway.
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Pytheas
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| Quote: |
Before the Empire changes
a very wonderful event will take place.
The field moved, the pillar of porphyry
put in place, changed on the gnarled rock. |
~ From Nostradamus, C.1 Q43.
Basically, the end of the British empire will finally arrive with Scottish independence, as Scotland is effectively the last colony. It will be the 'miraculous' re-discovery of the real Stone of Destiny which instigates or consumates the process, and the stone itself will replace the fake stone at Edinburgh Castle (on the gnarled castle rock) as Scotland's true emblem of national sovereignty and identity.
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Holebender
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Oh well, if Nostradamus says so it must be true. Right?
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Alasdair
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Except that it could refer to any number of empires, and any number of rocks, perhaps except that of the stone of destiny which is seemingly a piece of sandstone making it sedimentary rather than igneous and it's also (I believe) free of large crystals which would emphatically rule it out of the group of rocks described as being porphyry ...
... isn't the internet wonderful!
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Pytheas
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| Alasdair wrote: | | the stone of destiny is seemingly a piece of sandstone making it sedimentary rather than igneous and it's also (I believe) free of large crystals which would emphatically rule it out of the group of rocks described as being porphyry ... |
Eh, no. You've obviously fallen for the faux history of the Stone.
True, the stone lodging at Edinburgh Castle is sandstone, but the ancient account of the Stone of Destiny is that it is one of either black bassalt, white marble or porphyry.
The sandstone lump in Edinburgh is local Scone stone, and therefore can not be the historical coronation stone of our monarchs.
Fancy that, the Queens and Kings of England have been crowned on a bog cover, how quaint of them.
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Alasdair
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well, what can I say ... pah!
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Holebender
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You gotta love those Nostradamus freaks.
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Stevie
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| Pytheas wrote: | | Alasdair wrote: | | the stone of destiny is seemingly a piece of sandstone making it sedimentary rather than igneous and it's also (I believe) free of large crystals which would emphatically rule it out of the group of rocks described as being porphyry ... |
Eh, no. You've obviously fallen for the faux history of the Stone.
True, the stone lodging at Edinburgh Castle is sandstone, but the ancient account of the Stone of Destiny is that it is one of either black bassalt, white marble or porphyry.
The sandstone lump in Edinburgh is local Scone stone, and therefore can not be the historical coronation stone of our monarchs.
Fancy that, the Queens and Kings of England have been crowned on a bog cover, how quaint of them. |
One look at that piece of brown craggy nonsense is enough to tell you The Bruce never would have sat on it to be crowned King of Scots.
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mairead
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Many a prophecy by Nostradamus has come true.
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azzuri
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I was at Scone Palace the other day, and was talking to some of the staff who informed me that Historic Scotland were performing a dig in the foundations of the palace itself as they had a hunch that the 'real' stone of destiny may be buried in the grounds somewhere. They are going to be performing this dig over the next couple of weeks.
Interesting times...
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Stevie
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Actually, that makes a lot of sense. A heavy stone like that would be easy to conceal in the grounds and easy to forget about.
It still doesn't explain why The Bruce wouldn't have had it exhumed and readied for his son to be crowned one day.
The Bruce was a busy man and in rather ill health towards the end of his life and it's possible he never thought it safe to exhume the stone.
Have you read the Bruce trilogy?
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Lord Pitsligo
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| azzuri wrote: | I was at Scone Palace the other day, and was talking to some of the staff who informed me that Historic Scotland were performing a dig in the foundations of the palace itself as they had a hunch that the 'real' stone of destiny may be buried in the grounds somewhere. They are going to be performing this dig over the next couple of weeks.
Interesting times... |
There's a lot of evidence the stone was a meteorite. If so, then expect them to find nothing more than a rusty stain on the ground. I've worked with meteorites, and the things are notorious for rusting to nothing if they're not looked after.
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azzuri
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Indeed. More likely it's a piece of granite from Aberdeenshire and not just sandstone from Scone itself like the stone in Edinburgh Castle.
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Stevie
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This is a job for Indiana Jones.
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