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| calum |
Sunday ferries - CalMac with Satan as skipper?!Dont ya just love it! Progress comes to beautiful Eilean Leodhais at long last. Latest news is that chief bampot, 40yo virgin and Daily Mail columnist John Macleod has turned on his fellow dark-agers in the Lord's Day Observance Soc. |
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| The Lithgae Jambo |
I see that the Ayatollah is still vocal.......I thought he'd have been long gone !
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/8153418.stm |
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| calum |
Here's a petition for Sunday ferry sailings.
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/Ferry7days/index.html Piece in a Gaelic blog about it: http://radgedug.blogspot.com/2009...artas-ga-aiseag-null-leodhas.html |
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| Reluctant Hero |
I hear what you are saying about progress, but when I think back to the early 90s, it was good to have just one day when shops weren't open etc. Regardless if you are religious or not, if you had one day when most things didn't happen, it would distinguish it from the rest of the week.
Take Sunday dinner for example. Traditionally a time when the family got together for a meal and share on what's happened during the week. This has simply died and I think you can trace it back to commercialism. The pressure to open shops on Sundays is making everyday more or less the same. In a decade or so, you won't be able to recognise the weekend. One week will end and the next will immediately begin. I must be getting old 
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| Alasdair |
I agree RH, there is something about rampant commercialism that has seen traditional rest days (and half-days) swept aside in pursuit of greater profitability, although perhaps we shouldn't be surprised given that we are all slaves to the economy and those who govern us see this as the be all and end all of evreything ... we're not people anymore or even the electorate, we're economic units.
What really gets me about this though is Calmac claims about having to run the service due to human rights ... what utter tosh. |
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| Cymro |
While I'm not particularly religious I don't see this as progress. In fact I'm inclined to see it as the exact opposite. It's only progress for those who want to either make money (which isn't a bad thing in itself in my opinion) or those who feel they have a right to go anywhere any time and ignore the wishes of other communities. I think there is something nice in respecting the nature and wishes of communities and them standing against the surge of 'modern life' in capitalism as has been mentioned, in transport etc. At the end of the day when you visit any area, be it an island, a rural village to walk the hills, a city, anywhere you are a guest of that area and you have a responsibility to respect the wishes and culture of that area. I don't see this development which has been forced over the democratic will of the people via the Comhairle nan Eilean Siar (maybe it would have been good to hold a referendum on it though) was ignored by those deemed higher up within Calmac and the EU. | ||||||||||||||
| calum |
I see your point RH but the Wee Frees do not want a 'day of rest'. They want a 'day of worship' where not just ferries but washing clothes, watching telly, walking on the beech, playing football, even making meals is frowned upon.
Cymro - in recent years, and i've experienced this, locals in Leodhas have been held back from participating in these kind of 'leisure' activities and chores that people would do on a sunday simply becuase the churches believe they should be in church twice on a sunday or at home doing bible reading. Bąs dhan chreidseamh seo! |
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| azzuri |
Indeed, there's even a sign up at the kid's playpark in Eoropie stating 'please respect the Sabbath'!
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| Cymro |
I have no problem with the people of the islands wanting to get a ferry service on the Sunday etc, but inevitably despite the spin of this being good for locals to be able to get on and leave the islands as they wish and for the oil workers etc the main reason for this is opening the island for more visitors and making money for CalMac etc. For me this should have been put to a referndum for the people of the islands this would effect. It isn't progress of any sort when it's deemed "for the greater good" i.e. it helps others with a motive (inevitably to make money) at the expense of local traditions and customs. |
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| Aventinian |
I agree with Cymro's first post - 'keeping the Sabbath' is a good thing from a secular angle too.
However ultimately it is down to the individual. By all means respect it yourself, even encourage others to do so, but trying to force a business to remain closed is taking it too far. If the Isles are a holy as some seem to make out, then there will simply be no demand for this service and it will cease to run. |
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| calum |
If CalMac make money, then surely that's good? CalMac are heavily subsidised and if a Sunday service can help keep all year round routes to smaller islands going then the better. Our rural economies and communities need help and superstition aint gonna do it.
Christians can't even agree on which day is the Sabbath. I was always told Sunday was the first day of the week plus 'Sabbath' is Hebrew for Saturday. In Spanish, 'Sabado' too. In Europe, Sunday is often a 'family day' with most shops closed but people are not forced into worshipping any 'god' and they still have the choice of travelling. |
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| Cymro |
It certainly isn't good for CalMac to make money at any cost and despite it's claims that this is being done on a Human Rights or Equalities agenda this is what is at root of the decision - it's no coincidence that the first trip on a Sunday is in the hight of the tourist season! CalMac is more than subsidised by the taxpayer Callum, it's owned by the taxpayer! It's owned by the Scottish government http://www.calmac.co.uk/corporate-calmac.html Essentially here we have a government agency riding over the wishes of the locally democratically elected body for the area - Comhairle nan Eilean Siar to make money. The sad thing here is that this is another example of a traditional, rural area being opened up to milk any money they can out of the area. This inevitably leads to an erosion of customs and traditions and also culture within the area. Now I'm not saying the islands need help and support in terms of ensuring future sustainability but reliance on tourism isn't the answer. In fact aside from the religious aspects this could well have negative impact on the area - opening up to tourism inevitably means higher property costs as people from the outside who inevitably have more money buy up "quaint island cottages for people to enjoy authentic Hills and Glens", villages become ghost towns in the winter etc. If people where genuinly interested in developing the local economy of the area they'd be looking away from tourism at actual community based initiatives. Culture and traditions do indeed evolve and develop but that should be down to the express wishes of the people of those islands not a government owned company and for a small band of profiteers who don't want such inconveniences religion blocking their attempt to make a few more £'s from the tourists. The hotels may be happy, so will the pub which will now sell "We Conquered Lewis - on a Sunday" t-shirts, but how will the community have benefited? Not that much I'm sure. |
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| calum |
Sorry, CalMac does need to make money and this route is and will be very popular. Yesterday, hundreds of locals turned out to cheer the ferry. That speaks volumes.
I don't share your visions of doom. This has not happened on Skye or the Uists where Sunday ferries are the norm. We ARE talking about human rights here. Just because these islands are deemed 'romantic' or 'beautiful' does not mean that ordinary people should not have the same rights to the services others enjoy. I remember Lewis before it had street lights and pavements anywhere outside Steornabhagh. There were few buses, even to sites of interest such as Calanais. This all has come and is welcomed. Sunday ferries will be a great success and judging by yesterdays wellwishers, many locals do not want to live in a religious museum. |
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| calum |
Regarding Skye, the only problem i'd identify is with so-called 'white settlers' buying the houses at inflated prices and opening craft shops which are of little local use. Having said that, it isn't all doom and gloom. The Gaelic college is a huge success and numbers of Gaelic speaking children are on the rise in Skye. Popelation too seems to be on the rise.
Hopefully this will happen in Lewis too. |
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| Dave Coull |
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| calum |
Not true. Many Christians question the authority of having the Saturday 'Sabbath' on the Sunday. For example:
http://www.khouse.org/articles/2000/223/ Christians though hold the Sabbath on the wrong day, nevertheless. I was told this much by Christian scholar and professor of RME at Jordanhill College, Chris Foxon. Either way, i object to having my life dictated by followers of middle-eastern folklore. As much as i'm interested in the Fenian cycle and stories of Fionn and CuChulainn, i don't see them as a basis for which to moralise and run society. |
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| Dave Coull |
Most of the English names for days of the week have pagan origins, either Nordic or Roman. Sunday is the Sun's day, Monday is the moon's day, Tuesday is Tew's day, Wednesday is Woden's day, Thursday is Thor's day, Friday is Freya's day, and Saturday is Saturn's day.
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| Cymro |
No, CalMac like any company needs to make money, but this should not be at the expense of anything least alone the communities it claims to serve. That is why CalMac is owned by the government - it's a lifeline service for communities. I'm sure it is very popular, though I daren't say many of the 100's where there to see the historic event as opposed to support or oppose the crossing.
No, it isn't primarily about Human Rights, that is just a nice warm excuse to use, it's a biproduct of the main reason - money, which you are apparently happy for it to make at any cost. I don't personally know the Uists but having been to Skye it has had am impact. The sheer volume of second and holiday on the islands is immense as well as the price of houses in papers (I get the Oban Times delivered down here to Wales and often see homes advertised for sale in Skye in it) which can no way be within the grasp of local people. Now, I don't know Lewis but I'm sure prices are also very high there but this can only go up with situations like this. Of course local people have a right to a reasonable life, that is why you will see I said there should have been a referendum on it. Let the people of Lewis have a voice one way or another. I certainly don't think your nasty comments about religion help though. I'm not religious myself and I'm sure there are people equally bigotted within the local religious rank and files, but if any comments can damage the community and split it things like this can. The Local Government for the area where against it, they have a democratic mandate (whether you agree with it or not is your choice) which was ignored by the Scottish Government owned company - that is why I would have thought a referendum was a good idea.
Yes Sabhal Mņr Ostaig is a success. But it's not really possible to recreate the success of that on every island saddly. It's a major local employer and it's brilliant that this it through the medium of Gaelic, more of this would certainly help ensure the expansion of the language as a living language and not just preserve it. For every Craft Shop as you mention there is a wider impact where local people are priced out of the market. When there isn't somewhere to live many will leave - on a Sunday or anyother day. I'm glad Gaelic is rising once again on Skye, but on what basis? It's all well filling a Census form saying your child can speak Gaelic when they do an hour a day of Gaelic (this happens here in Wales) or even if they do more what is the natural language of playground? With small numbers of people moving into the area with the right attitudes they are immersed in the language and local culture this obviously benefits the culture and wider community. When you get larger numbers into any rural area this is a negative impact. That is why I worry when I see such over emphasis given to tourism. It's a dangerous situation when you over rely on something like this at the expense of creating proper meaningful infrastructure for the benefit of the community. Running a boat on Sunday may or may not be welcomed by locals (referendum etc) but don't think this is going to help the people of Lewis as a whole because my fear is it won't. |
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| calum |
Dave, it doesn't take much for Christians to disagree with each other.
As so Sabbath - to orthodox Christians and Jews it does 'mean' Saturday just as it 'means' Sunday to most modern day Christians. Either way Sabbath/Saturday/day of rest is not held on the appropriate day by these Christians. As to my 'opinion' - aint that what religion is about? It's not proof certainly. It is also the considered opinion of Chris Foxon. I'm not in a position to question Chris Foxon's credentials as scholar of religion but i'm happy to trust what he says. However, i'd love to hear about your credentials and grounds for questioning him. |
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| calum |
Cymro - you forget that many islanders want a 7 day service. In fact a year round service is likely to benefit islanders more than tourists. I know and work with a few who'd love the opportunity to visit home more often from a Friday night to Sunday. If in doubt, go and google the Niseach Dr. Finlay Macleod's comments on the issue.
As to holiday homes. I can't see how an extra day's sailing will affect this. This has already been an issue for years anyway. If you know the Nis area of Lewis, you'll know it's one of the most traditional in terms of Gaelic speaking and 'traditional' industries such as crofting and fishing. However, even here the numbers of 'white settlers' has been on the rise for years and many of the multitude of homes you do see in Nis, that arent' already sold to incomers are either empty or occupied by an ageing Niseach. The islands need all the help they get for their communities. The right to travel is a very basic one but the religious lobby wish to impede ANY activity on the 'Lord's Day' that does not include worship. Even the local sports centre is kept closed. Religious views are not a good enough reason to hinder progress. |
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| Dave Coull |
I haven't played any part in the actual topic of this discussion, just commented on a side-issue, a remark that I thought was wrong on HISTORICAL grounds. How history is interpreted is always a matter of opinion, but some things in history are more well established than others. Historically speaking, it's fairly well established the reason the early Christians gave for switching their day of rest to Sunday was to commemorate the resurrection.
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| Cymro |
Am I? Why do I say on this very thread that this should have gone to a referendum then? I am wanting the will of the people of Lewis to be the basis of this decision not tourism. Would you not have liked the people of Lewis to be given that chance to vote on this so that opinion is stated clearly?
I am unaware of Nis or anyother part of Lewis directly and I'm not saying that 1 more day of ferry services will be the main factor of this. This will without doubt have an impact though, and the examples of Nis will without doubt be a common situation across the island as it is with other islands and other rural areas not just in the highlands of Scotland.
Indeed, religon alone shouldn't be good enough to hinder any sort of progress. But, local opinion should. If they had the courage of their convictions to have gone to a referendum and the majority of locals voted against the Sunday crossings then this and this alone should be more than enough. In the same ways if they vote for allowing the Sunday crossings I'd have no complaints. The preservation of the indigenous culture and the right to a home is a basic right, more so than travel. CalMac should not be allowed to ride roughshot over the will of the locals in order to make a few £'s from tourists. |
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| calum |
So, in the absence of a referendum, how do you know CalMac are 'riding roughshod' over local opinion? On the day, only a handful of protestors showed up whereas 'hundreds' of wellwishers cheered the ferry. Even 200 or so would be a sizeable percentage of an island population of 20k or so.
As to a referendum, yes it would have proved conclusively what local opinion was. However, a fair referendum would be local opinion on all services. I know many young Leodhasaich would love the opportunity to play sport on a Sunday. Maybe you think that a Comhairle run sports centre is 'capitalist' too. Regarding the ferry, it won't survive without local patronage as tourism to Leodhas is little or nothing after September. Se an t-side a dh'innseas/ time will tell. When i last worked in Leodhas a few years ago, i was pleasantly surprised to see lots of people out walking on a Sunday - with families and dogs - in places like the Gearraidh Chruaidh/Castle grounds. Even this would have been unthinkable and the result of verbal chastisement 15 or 20 years ago. I'm not 'pro-capitalist', just pro-freedom. And, i'd say that 'freedom of travel' on Leodhas is actually more traditonal than the Calvinist creed which in historical terms on Leodhas is quite recent as you can see from the quote below from 'The Herald'. Lewis was the last island not to have a seven-day ferry service because of religious tradition, and it was long overdue, according to one of the passengers, the celebrated Gaelic writer Dr Finlay Macleod. "The ferry leaving today means a great deal to me. It is talismanic. It is how our island has always connected to the mainland. I have been looking forward to today for most of my adult life. advertisement "I have been outspoken in my support for a Sunday sailing for years. I have been in touch with numerous secretaries of state and chairmen of CalMac, to gain for Lewis a normal civic freedom. "A posse of Calvinists came to Lewis three or four generations ago. They were very effective. They turned Lewis effectively into a theocracy. People of creed were in charge. If you were inside it, it was very thrilling. If you were outside it, it was very confining, frightening and controlling. So today is a great day for Lewis." |
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| calum |
Dave - i didn't say i was impressed by Chris Foxon. Don't put words in my mouth. I simply say that he knows more about religion than myself, and you. I'm no linguist either, but learned a lot about Scots' history and Gaelic over years, less than 60 though, as a gardener for the DLO, as these things seem to matter to you. Translating a word literally is different from translating it's meaning - therefore Saturday/Disathairne does mean 'Sabbath' in Hebrew as that is the day of rest the name is attatched to. You probably do know more about history than Foxon does, but we aint talking history here. I hope this debate ends here. |
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| Cymro |
Rightly or wrongly the only way you can democratically assume support or opposition without a referendum is via the local authority - which is the most local democratically elected body for the area. Without that local mandate CalMac will always be open (and justifiably so) to accusations of ignoring the will of the local people. Of course it would be good for the local sports centre etc to be open for people to use on a Sunday however here is where the problem arises. For a place to be open on a Sunday someone would have to work, that is when you begin to get a gradual break down in Sunday being a day of rest - whether it's for the traditional religious reasons or just for a chance to put your feet up or do stuff as a family - something which was mentioned at the beginning which would be a shame to loose. It's the same with the Sunday Ferry. When that runs, it's a natural snowball for shops to start opening on a Sunday, staff will be needed for the port, before you know it that tradition of a Sunday with the family - even for aethists will be gone. Personally I like the idea of being able to go back to a more traditional Sunday, not necessarily with going to Church or Chapel but with the family orientated life. It won't ever reasonably come back on the mainland. It is pro Capitalist (and I am not by any means an Anti Capitalist) because that is the reason for the move. It's the same mentality behind the EU - the right for people to move in order to allow the flowing of money. It's this bullshit that's part of my unhappiness with the way things have been done here - they make out it's about freedowm yet fail to give people the freedom to vote on it and make out it's part of a bigger equalities agenda. |
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| Alasdair |
Referendum for a ferry? what utter tosh and nonsense! Should we have a referendum every time someone wants to run a bus to an isolated community, I think not!
If you don't want to do anything other than observe the sabbath on the sabbath then that's your business, let's not go imposing it on everyone we don't live in a theocracy ... thank god! |
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| calum |
Cymro - you should check out this submission by the Leodhasach based campaigh for a 7-day service. It takes into account a survey done for the BBC/Mori in 2000:
MORI/BBC Survey 2000 This survey was commissioned by BBC Scotland in Feb/March 2000. Mori carried out telephone interviews with 750 residents aged 18 and over in Lewis and Harris. The responses showed that 61% either strongly supported or tended to support the introduction of Sunday ferry services (41% strongly supported, 20% tended to support). 24% said they strongly opposed sailings, while 9% tended to oppose. 4% neither supported nor opposed, while 1% had no opinion. http://www.scottish.parliament.uk...gnfor7dayferryservices-170308.pdf The chances are these figures FOR the ferry would be even higher today, given the decrease in church attendance and membership. Anyway, i wonder if you uphold these beliefs in Wales? How would you like it if members of an extremist religious sect set up roadblocks in a 10 mile radius of your home and forbade any public travel or service there? It's ridiculous, of course. So why should Leodhasaich live in some kind of museum? The signs are the majority DO want the freedom to do what they want on a Sunday, as we all have. Certainly, there has been a severe lack of 'outrcry' against it. Even the usual LDOS voices have been relatively muted. The irony is that while the religious have this stranglehold on the island, the youth are deserting it for those freedoms and opportunites on the mainland that you and the churches would deny them. Here's hoping Lewis reaps the benefits of progress and freedom. |
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| calum |
I agree, no one else in Scotland gets a referendum on a new service - trams in Edinburgh, rail link to Glasgow airport, dual-carriageway on the A9, new supermarkets etc. Why should Lewis be different? The Leodhasaich who use this service arent ardent capitalists anymore than i am for walking across the Forth Road Bridge. Oidhche mhath! |
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| Dave Coull |
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| Cymro |
Yes, for the fundamental reason that this does (positively or negatively depending on your opinion) lead to a fundamental change to the lives of people on that island. They had a referendum in Wales on allowing pubs to open on Sunday years ago, this is the same principle. I have no problem with that at all. Calum, I find your reaction here to Alasdair's comment a bit strange:
Given that just previously to my point about a referendum you said this:
Why the change of mind on the merits?
Roadblocks and no ferries are two different things to start off with but to humour you a little bit with your tenious link. No I wouldn't support it. If there was a tradition in Wales or blocking the roads on the Sunday by some religious group and the government agency or a government owned company wanted to change that 'way of life' without consulting with the community I'd have issues with it, I don't think the government should be making decisions like this without a local mandate i.e. a referendum especially when the local government are against the changes. Otherwise you have to ask what is the point of local democracy and local government? Not much if you ask me.
If you think the ferries will change this then I feel even more sorry for the people of Lewis. This will still happen, even possibly at an increased rate. Not saying people should therefore be essentially kept prisoner on the island but there are more fundamental investments needed on the islands and within communities to help these islands. It seems that for you and others 'progress' is a good thing at what ever cost. For me there is a risk of losing something by ignoring the wider issues and relying on a ferry and tourism that can not be thrown money at when it's too late. And that isn't progress, it's anything but progress. Hey, atleast I'll be able to have my pick of holiday homes if I want to go for a holiday to Lewis one Summer. I could even go on a Sunday! |
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| mairead |
Don't understand all the hoo haa anyway.
The island has simply been brought into the 21st century. The Islanders can worship all day if they so choose, and if they choose not to, so what. By the way did you see the grim faces and wee tight down turned mouths of the men gathered at the kirk door last week. It looked as if smiling was another forbidden Sabbath rule. Anyway, no-one has to sit all day in a kirk or sit at home reading the bible to be a Christian. Christianity is a way of life, not just for Sunday's. |
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| Stevie |
Is sheep shagging permitted on a Sunday? | ||||||||||||||
| Cymro |
How very mature.....but as you ask, yes and we take pride in exporting it to Restaurants in the UK the following week for you to enjoy.... |
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| Stevie |
A leg of lamb please. | ||||||||||||||
| Cymro |
hmmm, do still find your decision to belittle using the old imperilisitic 'humour' a bit unerving though.... | ||||||||||||||
| Stevie |
I'm a leg man. | ||||||||||||||
| Cymro |
I sincerely hope your drunk and not just a prick | ||||||||||||||
| Stevie |
Nice. | ||||||||||||||
| mal |
It was the most surreal holiday i`ve ever had,making the mistake of going to Lewis on a Sunday. Lesson learnt,won`t be back anytime,will stick to Harris and take the Ferry to Berneray on a Sunday. Their loss, not mine. |
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| calum |
Mal - Harris is even worse.
Cho gruamach ri Hearach! or financially... cho duinte ri sporan Hearch. |
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| kevin04 |
I went to Lewis/Harris in 07 and took the Saturday Sailing back to the Mainland from Stornoway - Ullapool.
On the boat, I met what I think was Western Isles Rugby Team, or Stornoway U18s Rugby team? They had to request all their games played at 11/12 kickoff in the league, whilst other teams kicked off at 3pm, so they could rush back to catch the Sailing home. Also, students/workers/locals should be able to have the right to sail back or forth to Lewis on a Sunday. I wanted to stay a further night as there was a local band on the Sat that I wanted to see, but I needed to be back on the mainland for Monday. Little things like the Rugby team situation, make sense for there have a sailing. I also see the point that Sunday's being the day of rest and it is quite refreshing to see a place that is closed on a Sunday, but people forcing their religious views on to others should not be accepted. Yes, people can and should be encouraged to observe the Sabbath, but with a population of 7,000 or so. There should also be options for others to be able to do what the want. I believe that there are even a few Pubs open on Sunday in Stornoway. |
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