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Teenagers to swear allegiance to BritainI dont know if anyone has read about this - basically the government have set up compulsory citizenship ceremonies for 18year olds marking the fact that they are able to vote, in which they have to swear allegiance to Britain. Apparently this is a new way to tackle terrorism... and I have to say I didnt think they could come up with an idea stupider than the ID cards fiasco. The article cites that that only 27% of Scots, 35% of Welsh and 48% of English people think of themselves as British. So basically they expect a huge majority of the population to swear allegiance to something they dont believe in or identify with.heres a link to the full article http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=1740712005 edit - I just noticed the article is from 2005 - so what ever happened to that idea? |
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| carol |
''Among the plans under consideration is a "rite of passage" plan in which all 18-year-olds would be forced to take part in a ceremony marking the fact that they are able to vote''
Above quote from the Scotsman Aye right if they force feed British crap down my boys throats when they come of age, it'll be rammed back down theirs. avatar - I remember reading something about it at the time, I take it has no doubt fallen like a damp squib. Carol |
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| IF Convenor |
Sounds like one of Gordon Broon's ideas.
I hope they make all those 18 year olds wear union jack underpants for the ceremony. |
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| carol |
 I'd set them on fire 
Carol |
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| IF Convenor |
Trying to make liars of them?
I'm working nights, what's your excuse for being online at this time? |
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| wisnaeme |
Re: Teenagers to swear allegiance to Britain
I remember viewing old newsreel footage of teenagers and young, five year old childen standing rigidly to attention and giving the nazi salute while swearing allegiance to a police state. I have even watched television programmes recently, showing footage of teenagers and young kids giving the clenched fist salute while swearing allegiance to another police state soviet and otherwise. Do you remember Chairman Mao's little red book and millions of teenagers screaming allegiance to the state?In the planet's recent history, every time we view teenagers swearing allegiance to this or that bloodshed usually follows. It couldn't possibly happen in this country,could it? After all we are a democratic, western nation.We're not like other nations in the past who's leaders used teenagers and their oaths of state allegiance to suit mein leader's own purposes,the state's purpose.Do you remember Cambodia? Do you remember the Congo and other places in Africa and the Middle East? Some of these places actually had some form of democracy,some of these countries even inherited it or it's ideals from the British Empire; Places like the USA even.Usually,folk who live in a democracy of some sort or another,don't seem to grumble too much about a little less freedom here or a few new laws there. All in the name of protected the people of course.Plausible lies to protect the state, to protect and retain the status quo more like it. Insidious,creeping spin in the name of this and that, in the defence of this and that and so we sleepwalk our way into the oppression of a police state. At this very moment in time, while I am typing this, Sky News is broadcasting a piece on how 150 ex Britons, couples with teenagers and young children amongst them are swearing allegiance to their new country.It's only a civil ceremony they say and they are now citizens of a democratic state they say, one that respects the right of others.How very strange that this country seems to have a lot of civilians and others walking around around armed to the teeth, many of these "citizens" are teenagers who swore oaths of allegiance are at this moment, walking around in other people's countries armed to the teeth. That democratic country is Israel.Oh dear, some of those teenagers who swore oaths of allegiance have just been spilling a little more blood, theirs and others. Meanwhile in the UK, a democracy you understand, in a Sky News report which followed the breaking of the cease fire in somebody else's country by the Israeli's, new security measures against this and that have been announced.To protect the citizens of a democracy we are told, to protect us from terror and the fear of it we are told. Aye right.So a little more of our freedoms drain away,drip by drip until it becomes a torrent of abuse against the citizen by the state. One day some of those UK teenagers who swore allegiance to the UK state will spill and have their blood spilled and that day was yesterday and many of the yesterdays before it.I wonder at which day in the near future will the drip,drip of blood be replaced by a torrent of bloodshed and loss to and caused by teenagers swearing oaths of allegiance to the state in defence of the UK state and it's interests,against other people's interests and in other people's countries.Isn't it comforting to be assured that the state is defending the citizen against the baddies? May be I would be more reassured and safer if I knew someone, somewhere,some how was defending me from the UK state, the UK establishment and their interests which do not necessarily protect citizen me and my interests or the interests of any other citizen person of the vast majority of the UK population.Oath of allegiance to whom? The UK state or those who control it and wish to remain in control. I think I already know the answer to that question. What a pish poor situation we are in when we can't believe what we're told by the public administration and current government of UK PLC.That we should hold in such contempt many of the politicians in this UK government and many of our senior Civil servants whom,once apon a time knew how to say no on our behalf to those whom we elected. . |
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| carol |
I'd forgotten the phrase liar liar pants are on fire
Night Hawk last night Neil, Early Bird this morning 
I think it is a controlling factor, wanting to instill Britishness into our children, which effectively would mean some sort of learning programme beforehand on why "you should be proud to be British". If that ceremony is in place when my children come of age, as a parent I would rebel against it. I cringe now when as a forces babe (dad was in the army) when I think it was the closing credits on the TV they played God save the Queen, we were made to stand to attention (I didn't know any better in those days!!!)
Carol |
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| ProudToBeAScotsGirl |
Oh goodness this type of thing get's me SO fired up! Reminds me how I will have to swear loyalty to the queen and her successors in order to become a citizen in a wee ceremony and everything. I wish I could rebel, but that would prevent me from becoming a citizen...and well...ive got the love of my life in Scotland. I guess saying it will be a sacrifice for love. I swear im going to burst into tears when the time comes...  the idea that ive sworn loyalty to the queen AND her successors. If it was just the queen I wouldn’t mind so much, after all, she would die eventually.
But in future years, if it's my own children having to say they are British, I would certainly take a stand! Im sure there are plenty of Scottish children who are so confused about their identity. After all, there's obviously more American and British children's programs then Scottish. I mean, fair enough to anyone who enjoys being British. But if Scotland accepted being British, there wouldn’t be much Scotland today. It's so confusing how they are trying to make the entire island "British" but still tag on Scotland as part of a way to promote the idea of visiting "the British isles" so...em...if they make Scotland British, what will the tourists be coming for exacly? Do they expect Scots to accept being British and somehow stay Scottish? Thankfuly Scotland is still holding strong after decades of being part of the Union. So...the Scottish parents out there must be doing something right! It's that Scottish fire that won't burn out, and that's what makes Scotland a treasureable nation.
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| Celyn |
Thank goodness that notion seems to have bitten the dust. Or has it merely been put on the back-boiler?  Nah, dust-bitten, I think, since there are clearly rather a lot of people who won't like it and won't do it at all happily. Maybe it was announced as a smokescreen for something else in the news in 2005? I don't know.
Careful if you let them become Girl Guides, then, or Boy Scouts,  I suppose. There's a bit of promising "to serve the Queen" involved.  (Incidentally, seeing as I am way beyond the age of youth organisations, I just quickly searched online to check what their "promise" is these days, and I see that it has changed a wee bit, in terms of what god is involved. ) Still a bit determined about the queen, though.
So, the current version seems to be that the wean has to promise " ... To love my God, To serve the Queen and my country, ... ". Hmmm, not much room there for not having a god, really. And no room for not liking the monarchy much.
No, that is pretty much all right. Problems arise when some fools imagine, or try to pretend, that "Britain is synonymous with "England".
Um, well, more like 300 years (next year) than decades, really, but still nothing that can't be solved. 
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| neil8r |
I do love the difference between different countries ideas on things, with Australia and Canada its encourage while with good old UK its required. I just hope this will never come to fruition, hopefully by the UK dissapearing and our nations being reborn again |
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| Babygael |
Swear whit at erm tae buh buh britain? Waes that?? | ||||||||
| Aventinian |
This is another one of those situations where I can see that the idea of 'freedom' means very little to the average Scots nationalist. I disagree with the idea of swearing allegiance to the state, however it would seem that your only objection is that it is the British state as opposed to the Scottish state. I couldn't care less either way.
The problem, in my mind, is that the idea of allegiance to a state is ridiculous. The state is my servant and should be swearing allegiance to me - in fact, I'd very much like Tony Blair to come before every new citizen and promise to uphold their liberties and protect their freedoms. I am not against oaths absolutely. I have no problem with the oath to the Crown as I see the Queen as someone who should hold the loyalty of every one of her subjects - regardless of their personally feelings either for her or for her position. She has sworn her oath to us, we should be prepared to do the reverse for her. "I will give my loyalty to the United Kingdom and respect its rights and freedoms. I will uphold its democratic values. I will observe its laws faithfully and fulfil my duties and obligations as a British citizen." Now it is wrong to presume that the UK is commanding of loyalty simply as a result of it being a country. I am not loyal to it - I am loyal to myself, my family and to humanity. I respect its rights and freedoms - although I've noticed the government don't. I will not uphold its democratic values as I see a good few of them as fundamentally flawed, I will not observe its laws that I don't believe are fit to be laws and I imagine my idea of duties and obligations flowing from being a British citizen are quite different from the government's. |
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| Avatar |
Welcome back I can see reports of you death were greatly exaggerated
I agree with you, I dont think anyone should have to swear allegiance to the state - the only allegiance that should ever have to be sworn is by politicians to the people they represent. I disagree however that the Queen should hold the loyalty of every one of her subjects - regardless of their personally feelings. I'd rather swear allegiance to the state - at least they're elected - no way in hell should anyone have to pledge their loyalty to someone just because of their bloodline in this day and age. |
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| wisnaeme |
What an excellent reinvented ideal. Apparently it's been done before but has it been done before and upheld with sincerity and honour collectively by a political party holding the reins of power? I wonder if such a contract in writing between the people and those that represent them in parliament could be liable to fiscal penalties if either party is in breech of the contract. Aye ah ken, stupid question fer it happens all the time and it is apparent that only the represented appear to suffer fiscal penalties and otherwise. 'Lessons were learnt' or wisnaeme appears to be the only penalty suffered by political parties or public servants erring on the wrong side of breech of trust. Take for example the story in today's media circus of a policeman who was found guilty of driving in an non emergency situation at over a hundred and fifty MPH. The judge let him off with an admonishment saying " I think you have suffered enough". Aye right. Were lessons learnt then, Mr Policeman or did you give the judge a funny handshake after the verdict? And they wonder why the public are becoming extremely cynical and distrustful of politicians and increasing distrustful of the civil service and public servants in general. 
PS. Welcome back "Aventinian" Ah've missed yer rants an mibee ayes and on ra ither hand mibee naw in ra same breath arguments.Confused though they are. PPS. Wull ah see yerself wae yer kilt an merchin shoes on at ra Independence 1st rally on ra 30th o September in Embra? All welcome in ra spirit of reconciliation and "ge's piece" ah'm sure.  Mibee ye kin be ra standard bearer fer ra Union Jack and form a detachment o wan in ra merch. A rally ta ra colours sa tae speak of yerself or as protest agin that sort o thing. Try flowing with ra tide "Aventinian" ye jist micht get used tae it, ither that or droon.
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| IF Convenor |
Av, Av, Av, dear dear dear. You either need a few basic lessons in logic or you are back to your old mischievous ways. This thread is about young adults being required to swear loyalty to the British State. You take the fact that people have objected to that without expressly saying that they object to the swearing of oaths to any state as indicative of an acceptance of the validity of swearing oaths to some state, just not this one. I don't think I really need to point out the flaw in your logic, but I will if you want me to. Why don't you show us a bit of evidence for your statement? |
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| neil8r |
Who has actually said that it is only swearing allegiance to the British state thats the problem as it stands that story is only referring to the Status quo so we have commented on that.
I agree
I see no difference between an oath of allegiance to a country and an oath of allegiance to the crown. My allegiance has to be earned and its not an absolute and permanent thing either. |
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| Blackadder |
I owe allegiance first and foremost to ME .... I'll swear any oath anyone likes, but being who I am and my illustrious lineage ... don't expect me to keep it. I'd gladly sell you all down the river for a pie and a pint if I had to!
I'm not kidding by the way ... it's all stuff and nonsense owing allegiance to the state these days ... especially when the Yanks virtually own us!
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| IF Convenor |
What kind of a pie? I'm getting peckish. | ||||||||
| Blackadder |
KFC wrote;
*tuts* Scotch pie of course. That grey piece of whatever it is inside a shell, heated up past its best and smothered in brown sauce. Mmm ... my mouth is watering ... |
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| IF Convenor |
Oh well, you enjoy it then. I've been a vegetarian for over 17 years and I'm not about to be tempted by a Scotch pie.
What is that grey stuff anyway? |
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| Blackadder |
I have to admit I have no idea ... but it is hot and spicy and when covered in brown sauce ... one cares not. Afficionados of brown sauce will concur that nothing matters when you have a bottle of brown sauce and are not afraid to use it. | ||||||||