Aventinian
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The National AnthemNow, this will inevitably turn into a debate on the National Anthem, which isn't really the point, but all the same I thought the subject worth bringing up:
On BBC radio today I heard some comment or other about the National Anthem including the line 'rebellious Scots to crush'. To say I was astounded at the poor quality of BBC journalism on such matters would be an outright lie - I wasn't remotely surprised.
However to see it in black and white (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7126929.stm) prompted by an obviously uninformed ex-senior official of the government really pissed me off.
A mere two minutes of research would have drawn him (and the BBC) to realise that the National Anthem has no official lyrics and thus they cannot be altered, nor are six verses of the tune ever played in the modern day - two is the accepted full version.
Sometimes I wonder why I'm not on the government gravy train instead of these cretins...
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Holebender
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I think you have a typo there; did you mean GSTQ has no official lyrics?
If that's the case, you can no more argue that "rebellious Scots to crush" is not part of the dirge than you can argue that the phrase is included.
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Aventinian
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That is indeed the case. Now corrected.
GSTQ has no official lyrics, hence they cannot be officially changed.
It does have customary lyrics, which certainly do not include anything about rebellious Scots except in the minds of a few Scottish nationalists. The story about a tacked on marching verse in 1745 would've fallen as a brief footnote in the annals of history along with the (literally) hundreds of other verses which have been penned. However it was probably in an SNP office that it was decided to inject this irrelevant nonsense back into the popular psyche.
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Holebender
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That would explain why a unionist Labour peer has gone to such lengths to highlight this non-existent slight to Scots.
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sgmillerton
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why don't they unoffically change it then?
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Aventinian
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| Holebender wrote: | | That would explain why a unionist Labour peer has gone to such lengths to highlight this non-existent slight to Scots. |
I'll assume that's sarcasm?
I don't know why he has gone to 'such lengths' (making a few comments here and there, without even researching the matter for two minutes) - I'd presume it's because he's rather willing to believe anything he hears.
| sgmillerton wrote: | | why don't they unoffically change it then? |
A government cannot 'unofficially' change things by decree.
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sgmillerton
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the lyrics are unofficial, unofficialy change them for the mope.
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Blackleaf
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If "rebellious Scots to crush" is to be erased from God Save the Queen then the line talking about sending the English home "tae think again" should be erased from the Flower of Scotland.
It's only fair.
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Economist
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You've got to wonder why all these ideas come out, now. I mean, why now? [It's a rhetorical question, I know the answer.]
But in all honesty, I think - such is the complete lack of interest shown in the United Kingdom's national anthem, in Scotland - that most Scots would be unaware of the existence of these lyrics.
I'm much more interested in what would be the lyrics of Scotland's national anthem - when we eventually decide upon one of course 
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Blackleaf
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Scotland, unlike England, has got a national anthem, albeit unnofficial and anti-English.
The British national anthem is, of course, the oldest in the world.
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Economist
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| Blackleaf wrote: | Scotland, unlike England, has got a national anthem, albeit unnofficial and anti-English.
The British national anthem is, of course, the oldest in the world. |
Yes it is unofficial. Hopefully that will change. I don't think Flower of Scotland is anti anywhere. Having said that I don't much like the song and would prefer something a bit more upbeat.
GTSQ, as far as I'm concerned isn't the national anthem of the country I identify with, or live in, so I don't really care whether it is perceived as anti Scottish or anything else.
As for England's lack of national anthem - and there is only one place that can do anything about that - I'm not sure what your complaint is. Unless it is against your own countrymen and women.
And there are national anthem's that significantly predate GSTQ/K.
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azzuri
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| Economist wrote: |
But in all honesty, I think - such is the complete lack of interest shown in the United Kingdom's national anthem, in Scotland - that most Scots would be unaware of the existence of these lyrics.
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By bringing this topic up for debate in order to 'enhance Britishness', all they've done is bring its existence to people's attention.
You couldn't make it up...
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Celtic Indian
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| Economist wrote: |
Yes it is unofficial. Hopefully that will change. I don't think Flower of Scotland is anti anywhere. Having said that I don't much like the song and would prefer something a bit more upbeat.
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I agree.I really can't see any connection between the lyrics of FOS and the modern Scotland of today.No reflection at all.
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RadgeJougal
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| Celtic Indian wrote: | | I agree.I really can't see any connection between the lyrics of FOS and the modern Scotland of today.No reflection at all. |
"We can still rise now, and be a nation again."
I think that reflects modern Scotland...
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Corby Boy
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I quite like 'Donald Wheres yer Troosers!
GSTQ is such p*sh. IMO.
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Aventinian
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| Blackleaf wrote: | If "rebellious Scots to crush" is to be erased from God Save the Queen then the line talking about sending the English home "tae think again" should be erased from the Flower of Scotland.
It's only fair. |
It wasn't about the English, but rather 'Edward's army' - and it was a statement of historical fact than an instruction. I don't think it's anti-English, but it does demonstrate an unhealthy obsession with such matters.
Moreover, I don't hold that the 60s Dirge is some some of beyond-dispute national anthem of Scotland.
| Economist wrote: | | But in all honesty, I think - such is the complete lack of interest shown in the United Kingdom's national anthem, in Scotland - that most Scots would be unaware of the existence of these lyrics. |
I can't imagine that, save for sporting events, we take any less interest in the National Anthem than any other part of the UK.
| Celtic Indian wrote: | | I agree.I really can't see any connection between the lyrics of FOS and the modern Scotland of today.No reflection at all. |
Something more modern than that 1960s clap-trap?
Eurgh.
| RadgeJougal wrote: | | Celtic Indian wrote: | | I agree.I really can't see any connection between the lyrics of FOS and the modern Scotland of today.No reflection at all. |
"We can still rise now, and be a nation again."
I think that reflects modern Scotland... |
Except that those are not the lyrics.
It's "be the nation again..." - it's not a Nationalist song. Do you think it would've been remotely acceptable if it was?
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Celtic Indian
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| Aventinian wrote: |
It's "be the nation again..." - it's not a Nationalist song. Do you think it would've been remotely acceptable if it was? |
Aye.Thats right.
Even if it was 'be a nation again',when Scotland does become independant,those words would be obsolete.
The lyrics,as I undertand it,are about the Scottish Wars of Independance 700 years ago.I cannot see any link in the timeline between those events and the Scotland of today.Those events did not shape modern Scotland.Those events are confined to Scottish history.
To me FOS is nothing more than a fitba song.Scotland should have a new anthem written for her.An anthem that reflects the Scottish people of today and reflect modern Scottish achievements.
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Corby Boy
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I agree Celtic Indian.
FOS is an okay song, but it needs to be sung properly IMO for it to be rousing and passionate, and all too often it degenerates into an out tune dirge as previous posters have alluded.
I don't think Scotland the Brave hits the mark either.
Loch Lomond is more appealing, but again it is not reflective of the country as a whole at all.
So, a new upbeat rousing anthem that all can be proud in should be penned. After all, FOS was only written in the 60's so it is hardly historic.
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frank rizzo
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The idea that FOS isn't a nationalist song is laughable. The guys that wrote it are/were nationalists, the song quite clearly is a call for Scotland to regain her sovereignty along with other songs they've written and sung over the years. This is why we constatly get unionist politicians and their media buddies calling for it to be replaced.
I feel sorry for the English when their anthem calls for a supernatural sky fairy to come and save an idle rich parasite. Not very representative of a nation is it?
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Aventinian
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| Celtic Indian wrote: | Aye.Thats right.
Even if it was 'be a nation again',when Scotland does become independant,those words would be obsolete. |
I'd say they'd already be obsolete, considering Scotland is generally held to be a nation right now.
| Corby Boy wrote: | I don't think Scotland the Brave hits the mark either.
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Scotland the Brave is a good tune, but the lyrics are terrible.
| frank rizzo wrote: | | The idea that FOS isn't a nationalist song is laughable. The guys that wrote it are/were nationalists, the song quite clearly is a call for Scotland to regain her sovereignty along with other songs they've written and sung over the years. This is why we constatly get unionist politicians and their media buddies calling for it to be replaced. |
I can't say I know a great deal about the Corries, or have heard any of their other songs, however Flower of Scotland contains no noticeably nationalist content.
| Quote: | | I feel sorry for the English when their anthem calls for a supernatural sky fairy to come and save an idle rich parasite. Not very representative of a nation is it? |
It's the British national anthem as well you know.
God is representative of a higher power, which the vast majority of people - even in Britain today - believe in. Even if you don't, I don't see much problem with the song.
As for representative of the nation - the Queen is the foremost representative of this nation!
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Economist
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| Aventinian wrote: | | I can't imagine that, save for sporting events, we take any less interest in the National Anthem than any other part of the UK. |
My broader point being that for most Scots - GSTQ isn't their national anthem.
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carol
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some 'nationalists' stand up to Scots Wha Hae
I was recently at an event in the British Legion in Perth, where everyone was called to stand to the 'national anthem' I sat through it 
regards
Carol
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RadgeJougal
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| Celtic Indian wrote: | | To me FOS is nothing more than a fitba song. |
Erm, no it's not.
Who first popularised it as the national anthem (apart from the Corries)?
(Clue: Not the SFA)
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agentmancuso
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SRU
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Celtic Indian
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| RadgeJougal wrote: | | Celtic Indian wrote: | | To me FOS is nothing more than a fitba song. |
Erm, no it's not.
Who first popularised it as the national anthem (apart from the Corries)?
(Clue: Not the SFA) |
Fitba songs as in chanted from the terraces,before the Rugby types adpoted it as an unofficial national anthem.
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Maol.Chaluim
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| Blackleaf wrote: | | Scotland, unlike England, has got a national anthem. |
They play GSTQ at England's sporting fixtures, which kind of suggests that it's England's national anthem, also used for the UK on occasion. Or maybe it's the other way round...
What about "Jerusalem"?
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Celtic Indian
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| Maol.Chaluim wrote: | | Blackleaf wrote: | | Scotland, unlike England, has got a national anthem. |
They play GSTQ at England's sporting fixtures, which kind of suggests that it's England's national anthem, also used for the UK on occasion. Or maybe it's the other way round...
What about "Jerusalem"? |
The English use that as their victory anthem when the Commonwealth Games is on.
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RadgeJougal
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| Celtic Indian wrote: | | RadgeJougal wrote: | | Celtic Indian wrote: | | To me FOS is nothing more than a fitba song. |
Erm, no it's not.
Who first popularised it as the national anthem (apart from the Corries)?
(Clue: Not the SFA) |
Fitba songs as in chanted from the terraces,before the Rugby types adpoted it as an unofficial national anthem. |
Nope, the rugger buggers were using it long before the football crowd.
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RadgeJougal
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| Maol.Chaluim wrote: | | What about "Jerusalem"? |
Nice song, but Blake would be turning in his grave... hardly anybody who sings it seems to understand what Blake meant.
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Aventinian
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| Maol.Chaluim wrote: | | Blackleaf wrote: | | Scotland, unlike England, has got a national anthem. |
They play GSTQ at England's sporting fixtures, which kind of suggests that it's England's national anthem, also used for the UK on occasion. Or maybe it's the other way round... |
Of course it's the other way 'round, it's an obvious and well documented fact.
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Maol.Chaluim
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Lord Pitsligo
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Can I suggest "Scotland Will Flourish" for a national anthem:
Scotland will flourish by the sweat of labor
The strength of our will and the force of our mind
Forget the old battles, those days are over
Hatred corrupts and friendship refines
Let the Scots be a nation proud of their heritage
With an eye to the future and a heart to forgive
And let us be rid of those bigots and fools
Who will not let Scotland live and let live
Let us govern over country wisely and fairly
Let each man and woman work with a will
And Scotland will flourish secure in the knowledge
That we reap our own harvest and ring our own till
And let us be known for our kind hospitality
A hand that is open proper to friends
A hard working people, proud and unbending
Scotland will thrive and win out in the end
Scotland will flourish by the sweat of labor
The strength of our will and the force of our mind
Forget the old battles, those days are over
Hatred corrupts and friendship refines
So let us be known for our kind hospitality
A hand that is open proper to friends
A hard working people, proud and unbending
Scotland will thrive and win out in the end
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RadgeJougal
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"Scotland will flourish by the sweat of labor"
And American spelling?
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SLG
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| RadgeJougal wrote: | "Scotland will flourish by the sweat of labor"
And American spelling? |
You prefer United Kingdom spelling?
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agentmancuso
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He prefers phonetic spelling, so he can pretend it's a completely different language altogether that the baddies are trying to steal from us. To the the barricades Wee Eck & Soapy Souter!
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SLG
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Well, you're the linguistic expert Agent.
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RadgeJougal
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| agentmancuso wrote: | | He prefers phonetic spelling, so he can pretend it's a completely different language altogether that the baddies are trying to steal from us. To the the barricades Wee Eck & Soapy Souter! |
Who does? Are you speaking about me?
(Fervid imagination you have there).
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agentmancuso
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| RadgeJougal wrote: | | Fervid imagination you have there. |
Not so fervid as to make me imagine that proletarian muttering constitutes a separate language.
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Rinty
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I still think that "feels like I'm in love" by Kelly Marie would be the best option for a Scottish National Anthem.
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Celtic Indian
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I don't.
I think a new song reflecting the Scottish people of today and Scottish achievements should be penned.
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doodells
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Whoever pens the new song should set it to the tune of HIGHLAND CATHEDRAL because that tune, in any form (with pipes, strings, whistled or anything, as long as it is in tune) is so good that it leaves me speechless.
Highland Cathedral - with new lyrics
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Celtic Indian
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Amasing grace with new lyrics ? Nah.The Christians will go eppy !
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RadgeJougal
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| agentmancuso wrote: | | RadgeJougal wrote: | | Fervid imagination you have there. |
Not so fervid as to make me imagine that proletarian muttering constitutes a separate language. |
It's not just the proletarians that mutter. It's more the chattering classes.
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