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landg

this is brilliant

thanks to papa for for pointing it my way.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6879510.ece
Stevie

A brilliant idea landg.

I await with great expectation the fruits of your insight and wisdom dear boy.
landg

Stevie wrote:
A brilliant idea landg.

I await with great expectation the fruits of your insight and wisdom dear boy.


it's about the bnp and afghanistan, you will not understand.
Stevie

Quote:
James McMillan, the composer, has denounced the “cult” of Robert Burns, claiming that Burns suppers are parodies of the Catholic mass.

Writing in Celtic Minded 3, a collection of essays about the culture and politics of Celtic football club, he claims that Burns suppers are a deliberate mockery of the rituals of Catholicism.

“The Ayrshire Burns supper is unmistakably a parody mass,” he writes.

“Homilies and invocations are used to evoke ‘sacred memory’, ‘epiclesis’ [eucharist] is called down on a sacrificial victim in the shape of whisky and haggis, which is pierced by a knife and then consumed, communion style by the assembled congregation.”

MacMillan said he was delighted to be invited to an alternative Burns supper in honour of the late Celtic player Tommy Burns.

“There were no interminable immortal memories, no misogynistic Address to the Lassies ... no dodgy handshakes and no narrow definition of what it means to be Scottish,” he writes.

Margaret Morrall, president of the Ayr Burns Club, dismissed the criticism: “When people cut a cake and raise a toast at weddings and birthdays is that a parody of mass too?”



Naughty lang, hardly 'brilliant'.  It's not about the bnp or Afghanistan; it's about dissing the Scots.

I take it you're not fond of the place then...
landg

i love scotland but love to mock some of the stuff that comes out of it.
like this twit mcmillan and some other things that spring to mind, like, ach.........guess.
Rinty

I havent read his article and after the ludicrous reaction to his edinburgh festival speech I will reserve judgement until I do so.  Jimmy MacMillan is anything but a "twit".
landg

Rinty wrote:
I havent read his article and after the ludicrous reaction to his edinburgh festival speech I will reserve judgement until I do so.  Jimmy MacMillan is anything but a "twit".


you really need to read this piece of rabid, paranoid rubbish.
he is a cliched 'oppressed catholic' but with a mouthpiece.
scary.
Rinty

I'm surprised that you have read "celtic-minded 3" landg.  Its not my kind of thing but I will try to get the original article.

I find myself usually disagreeing with MacMillan but find his points very interesting and worthy of debate.  

What surprises me is the hostile apoplexy that breaks out every time he opens his mouth.

MacMillan is very far from being a cliche though.  He is a traditional catholic in terms of his faith, very old-fashioned in my opinion, but very much a student of religion and its place in culture.
Dave Coull

Not for the first time,
landg wrote:
paranoid rubbish
Rinty wrote:
I'm surprised that you have read "celtic-minded 3"
I haven't read it, but I have read some other things James MacMillan wrote. I have the book "Scotland's Shame" which includes contributions from him.
Rinty wrote:
He is a traditional catholic in terms of his faith, very old-fashioned in my opinion
I think it's a bit ridiulous to claim that "Burns suppers are parodies of the Catholic mass". In protestant churches, certainly in presbyterian churches, communion is a far more infrequent occasion than in the catholic church, but, precisely because it is less frequent, it can sometimes be a bigger deal when it happens. At one time, the rock band Runrig, as well as not playing on Sunday, used to avoid playing on the quarterly free kirk communion days (generally a Thursday I think). In rural parts of Scotland (such as Burns's Ayrshire, for instance), in the 18th Century, it was not unknown for holy communion to be conducted outside, simply because the churches weren't big enough to hold everybody who came from many miles around. These gatherings were big social occasions as well as religious. Because there were so many people to be given communion, they went on for a long time, and as they took place outside there was plenty of time for other kinds of communion to happen on the fringes. Open air revivalist gatherings in the USA originated with Scots presbyterians' communion days. But more generally, the eating of a communal meal in a social/religious setting is something which can be found in many cultures. You find it amongst Native Americans, and of course the very first Thanksgiving meal in the USA did include the local Native Americans, as well as the Pilgrims. But you also find the eating of a communal meal in a social/religious setting amongst Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. And, of course, you find it amongst Freemasons. And Robert Burns WAS a Freemason. And it was the masonic lodges, more than anybody else, who did a lot to popularise the custom of having Burns suppers. Which may be one reason why James MacMillan dislikes the custom so much. So, the Burns Supper has some obvious connections with Burns's own experience (the kirk as both social and religious gathering, boozing with cronies, masonic fellowship meals) but as for "parody of the catholic mass", yes, that's paranoia.
Stevie

It's silliness from a silly man who will be forgotten long before people stop eating haggis.
magister ludi

I've been to Burns's suppers in a field, under canvas, in a wooden hut, in an officers mess, in private homes, in village halls, in masonic lodges and a bishops palace......I think he's pulling our collective plonker!
landg

Rinty wrote:
I'm surprised that you have read "celtic-minded 3" landg.  Its not my kind of thing but I will try to get the original article.

I find myself usually disagreeing with MacMillan but find his points very interesting and worthy of debate.  

What surprises me is the hostile apoplexy that breaks out every time he opens his mouth.

MacMillan is very far from being a cliche though.  He is a traditional catholic in terms of his faith, very old-fashioned in my opinion, but very much a student of religion and its place in culture.


i have no idea what celticminded 3 is?
i read his latest paranoid and cliched rant in the times as you will see in the link.
i do recall fondly the combined discomfort of thousands when fergus mcann described what celticminded meant.
Rinty

so you havent read his article, just the short report on it in the times.

That interests me as the book 'scotlands shame' came about when Devine was forced to admit that he was wrong to criticise MacMillan's Edinburgh Festival speech, attacking the newspaper reports of the speech rather than waiting to read the whole thing.  He was moved to then compile the book as a response, opening up a wider debate rather than a narrow attack on a misrepresentation of Jimmy's views.

I have no idea where he gets the idea of the burns supper being based on a catholic mass, but it wouldnt be the most shocking thing I have ever heard personally.  Often, rituals can be based on or pardies of previous rituals, it isnt such a big deal or such a problem to propose that some are.
landg

Rinty wrote:
I have no idea where he gets the idea of the burns supper being based on a catholic mass, .


i think you'll find it is because he is a MOPE and generically bigotted. him and his type are scotlands (or irelands!!!!!) shame.
yes, i only read the article, i still have no idea what celticminded3 is but i still chuckle at fergus mcann's description on 'celticminded' and fergus was a clever and astute man.
Rinty

I don't know what Fergus McCann said and I'm not much interested to be honest, but I cant understand why you would refer to it without actually telling us what he said.

I've never read the celtic-minded books or their rangers equivalents.  I did read Scotlands Shame though and thought that it was a great follow up to MacMillans orginal, misrepresented, speech.

Devine was inspired to compile the book after attacking MacMillans speech based on what he had read in the papers of it, rather than the actual speech.  This led to an inportant compilation on the subject from leading commentators and church leaders that assisted the debate in my opinion.

So I am not moved to comment on this latest thing based on a reporters version of what it is about.

Why do you say "Irelands shame" when referring to MacMillan?  He is a scot, from Cumnock.
landg

Rinty wrote:
I don't know what Fergus McCann said and I'm not much interested to be honest, but I cant understand why you would refer to it without actually telling us what he said.

I've never read the celtic-minded books or their rangers equivalents.  I did read Scotlands Shame though and thought that it was a great follow up to MacMillans orginal, misrepresented, speech.

Devine was inspired to compile the book after attacking MacMillans speech based on what he had read in the papers of it, rather than the actual speech.  This led to an inportant compilation on the subject from leading commentators and church leaders that assisted the debate in my opinion.

So I am not moved to comment on this latest thing based on a reporters version of what it is about.

Why do you say "Irelands shame" when referring to MacMillan?  He is a scot, from Cumnock.


the bold fergus described 'celticminded' as roman catholic irish bigots. or words to that effect. it did not go down well at the time and still does'nt.

as for irelands shame, well, there are many thousands of scottish bigots who claim to be irish. they are irelands shame.
still no idea what celticminded3 is.
Dave Coull

landg wrote:
him and his type are scotlands (or irelands!!!!!) shame
Rinty wrote:
Why do you say "Irelands shame" when referring to MacMillan?  He is a scot
landg wrote:
there are many thousands of scottish bigots who claim to be irish. they are irelands shame
Landg, all you are doing is displaying your own ignorance and bigotry. "MacMillan" is a Scottish name. There are thousands of MacMillans whose ancestors have never been anywhere near the Emerald Isle. At my village school, we had a kid called Angus MacMillan. Like a lot of Macmillans, young Angus and his family were protestants.
landg

Dave Coull wrote:
landg wrote:
him and his type are scotlands (or irelands!!!!!) shame
Rinty wrote:
Why do you say "Irelands shame" when referring to MacMillan?  He is a scot
landg wrote:
there are many thousands of scottish bigots who claim to be irish. they are irelands shame
Landg, all you are doing is displaying your own ignorance and bigotry. "MacMillan" is a Scottish name. There are thousands of MacMillans whose ancestors have never been anywhere near the Emerald Isle. At my village school, we had a kid called Angus MacMillan. Like a lot of Macmillans, young Angus and his family were protestants.


dvadi, i was merely pointing out that there are many scottish born bigots, who, with irish ancestry, claim to be irish rather than scottish/british.
to pretend otherwise is just silly.
Dave Coull

about James MacMillan
landg wrote:
HIM and his type are scotlands (or irelands!!!!!) shame
Rinty wrote:
Why do you say "Irelands shame" when referring to MacMillan?  He is a scot
and I pointed out
Quote:
Landg, all you are doing is displaying your own ignorance and bigotry. "MacMillan" is a Scottish name. There are thousands of MacMillans whose ancestors have never been anywhere near the Emerald Isle. At my village school, we had a kid called Angus MacMillan. Like a lot of Macmillans, young Angus and his family were protestants.
"landg" now claims
Quote:
i was merely pointing out that there are many scottish born bigots, who, with irish ancestry, claim to be irish
No, that is NOT "all" you were saying. In saying "HIM and his type" you were quite specifically applying this to one particular individual, James MacMillan. Now, I happen to think James MacMillan is something of a bigot. But he's a Scottish one.
landg wrote:
to pretend otherwise is just silly.
Nobody here is "pretending otherwise". Of course there are people in Scotland who say they are Irish. You were wrong in saying this applies to James MacMillan.
landg

i wonder if macmillan has any irish ancestry, has he claimed it or spoken out about it? does anyone know. many of irelands shame do so.
Rinty

It is irrelevant whether he has or not, he always writes about his own experience when it comes to this subject.  I have always found the reaction to Jimmy's speeches more interesting than what he says, which is usually pretty obvious with too much a religious slant on it.

I wouldnt be in the least surprised if some of the Burns Supper was based on the mass, the pipuing in and addressing of the haggis is quite reminsicent of the communion offertory and blessing.

But, even if it was, I dont see the problem, or the problem in revealing it.

landg: "still no idea what celticminded3 is."

Youc havent read the book this piece is in, o0r the piece itself, and now you show that you didnt even read the time articel that you posted here, which tells you exactly what celticminded3 is.  Is there an award for the dumbest member of the forum ever?

Can you supply a source for that Fergus McCann quote?  I dont remember reading about it and cant find anything about it.
landg

nope, i still don't know what 'celticminded' is or even 1,2 or 3. can anyone enlighten me?
fergus macann did.
very easy to find with google. couple of the news reports for you.








The Mirror (London, England)
January 28, 1998

West, Lee

CELTIC chief Fergus McCann last night launched an astonishing attack on "Catholic bigots" undermining his anti-sectarian campaign.

Tommy Burns and Davie Hay - both ex-Parkhead bosses - have criticised the Bhoys against Bigotry drive.

Burns accused Celtic of confusing tradition with bigotry and Hay - recently axed as assistant General Manager - accused the club of ditching "Celtic-minded" people.

But McCann hit back yesterday as the club issued a campaign progress report.

He said: "These are really veiled comments by people I would call Catholic bigots.










YOU'RE JUST BIGOTS!

Daily Record
January 28, 1998

McCARTHY, DAVID

Fergus McCann last night launched a thinly-veiled attack on former Celtic bosses Tommy Burns and David Hay.

In an astonishing outburst, he branded those who have accused the club of shedding its identity as "Catholic bigots".

Former boss Burns accused Celts, whose anti-bigotry campaign is now in its second year, of mixing up tradition with bigotry.

And Hay - axed as Jock Brown's No.2 two months ago - claimed the club were ditching "Celtic-minded" people.

Those claims have clearly riled managing director McCann, who hit back yesterday as the club issued a progress report on the Bhoys against Bigotry campaign. He said: "These are really disguised or veiled comments by people I would call Catholic bigots.



now, if i'm told these quotes are wrong, innacurate or lies. can someone tell me what 'celticminded' means?
landg

Rinty wrote:
It is irrelevant whether he has or not, he always writes about his own experience when it comes to this subject.  I have always found the reaction to Jimmy's speeches more interesting than what he says, which is usually pretty obvious with too much a religious slant on it.

I wouldnt be in the least surprised if some of the Burns Supper was based on the mass, the pipuing in and addressing of the haggis is quite reminsicent of the communion offertory and blessing.

But, even if it was, I dont see the problem, or the problem in revealing it.

landg: "still no idea what celticminded3 is."

Youc havent read the book this piece is in, o0r the piece itself, and now you show that you didnt even read the time articel that you posted here, which tells you exactly what celticminded3 is.  Is there an award for the dumbest member of the forum ever?

Can you supply a source for that Fergus McCann quote?  I dont remember reading about it and cant find anything about it.



but as pointed out on this thread the burns supper seems to be a caricature of lots of different ceremonies, religious or otherwise yet 'celticminded' jimmy mac choooses to just highlight the catholic parody.hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. he's a good guy, sensible and burns and the rest of us are the bigots.
hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
the mans a twit. get over it.
magister ludi

Rinty wrote:
 Is there an award for the dumbest member of the forum ever?


Rinty, please stay "on topic".....I think this should be a new thread!!
landg

magister ludi wrote:
Rinty wrote:
 Is there an award for the dumbest member of the forum ever?


Rinty, please stay "on topic".....I think this should be a new thread!!


aye, i'm for that.
magister ludi

q.e.d.
Shagpile

Stevie wrote:
It's silliness from a silly man who will be forgotten long before people stop eating haggis.


Eating together is quite strong in French culture is it not Stevie?

France is also pedominantly Catholic as far as Christianity goes..... although Mouslems run them a close second. Funny enough, eating together is a social tradition amongst them too....... wierd that!

Global fat b'stards....... gona give up Pastafarianism too now!

Rolling Eyes
Rinty

"but as pointed out on this thread the burns supper seems to be a caricature of lots of different ceremonies, religious or otherwise yet 'celticminded' jimmy mac choooses to just highlight the catholic parody"

How do you know this if you havent read it? maybe his piece is about general parodfying of catholic rituals?  You and I do not know this as we havent read it.

"i still don't know what 'celticminded' is or even 1,2 or 3. can anyone enlighten me?"

It's on the times link that you provide, try reading it?  We know you havent read the article that you are criticising but, according to you, you are basing your criticism on the Times article, it clearly tells you what celticminded3 is.  read it.

"Rinty, please stay "on topic".....I think this should be a new thread!!"

I thought that the thread was about the times report of an article by Jimmy MacMillan in a book called celtic-minded3, how close to the subject can I stick?  It is clear that I have referrred to the specific subject throughout.
malcolmtucker

Devine Intervention: Sinister and Unwelcome.




We must be aware of, and come together to deal with, the forces that conspire against us.

Tom Devine is, by any reasonable standard, an exceptional historian. His work on economic and social issues relating to Scotland, especially the period covering the 17th to 19th centuries, is as impressive as it is vast. Some of his more recent output, on empire and sectarianism, has been rather patchy in nature. Still, for all his approach to the Covenanters may not find universal support (1) , his lecture in Edinburgh as part of the 300th anniversary of the Union, ‘The End of Unionism,’ was actually a fine defence of the constitutional arrangement and political reality, then and now, and his thoughts on the importance of Protestantism to the Enlightenment are well-represented in a recent Times article. (2)




So, you may ask, what exactly was he doing on Thursday evening’s BBC coverage of the Glasgow North East by-election? At first glance, the secondary panel (later we were treated to representatives of the major parties) was an odd bunch, indeed: Devine, the pallid beak of Joan MacAlpine, Alf Young of the Herald and that well-known bruiser, Margo MacDonald. As many noted on the night, it was a selection representing all the major BBC-approved political positions, from left to centre-left.




Some of you may recall that when first we suffered at the hands of UEFA, the discredited journalist was not alone in his attempts to have a native club suffer sanctions. Jack McConnell’s passion for discussing and tackling sectarianism may have caused him to lose his political marbles, and support from Elgin to Edinburgh, but he was ably assisted by people from all professions. Our friend at UEFA, David Taylor, at least one high profile churchman (believed to be Richard Holloway) and one prominent historian were thought to be involved in the general campaign, much of this information spilling from the over-excited mouth of Spiers himself, so caught up and careless did he become when he felt he had got one over the “white underclass” (3) of Rangers.




It may be a push to imagine Devine’s involvement, but perhaps it is worth noting a number of related facts. Firstly, as Professor Devine’s own home page tells us, “I advise the Scottish Executive on anti-sectarian policy.” (4) Further, when generally discussing the SNP attitude towards combating sectarianism, he lamented, "We should be calling this for what it is: it isn't sectarianism, it is anti-Catholicism." (5) So there you have it: sectarianism, as defined and understood by the man who advised the government on the subject, is merely code for anti-Catholicism.

Should one wish to examine this mindset further, Devine’s book, ‘Scotland’s Shame?’, gives room to the likes of James MacMillan and other notable Roman Catholics – including Bishop Joseph Devine, he of “Roman Catholic education is divisive” and an “enabler of sectarianism” (6) – as they inform us of the perils of this anti-Catholic way of life and thought in modern Scotland. At the time, it seemed to be – perish the thought – a perverse cash-in; a curious release obviously intended to benefit from the controversy after MacMillan’s outburst at the 1999 Edinburgh Festival, with his speech (note the absence of question mark) ‘Scotland’s Shame’. However, it should be noted that Devine claims to differ from the likes of MacMillan in some important ways: “Where I part company with MacMillan is in his assumption that such bigotry continues even today, and, crucially, that it still influences the labour market in terms of employment and promotion, obstructing life opportunities for Scottish Catholics.” (7)




Still, the edited volume certainly suffers by comparison with the work of those who are expert in their field, such as Aberdeen-based sociologist Steve Bruce, who, along with his co-contributors, wrote 2004’s ‘Sectarianism in Scotland’ (Cool , which produced and displayed the raw data to counter the rhetoric. A serious debate on sectarianism and the extent to which it truly exists in 21st Century Scotland, the main purpose and stated intention of that book, continues within academia but Devine has been largely absent. Although, and this was a treat, Devine and Bruce met for a debate on the subject in Aberdeen – where both were then employed – in 2005. (9)  Few who witnessed this were convinced by the historian. Devine left for Edinburgh later that year. (10)




But back to Thursday, and his appearance on BBC as a pundit. As the result became clear – as did the extent to which voters had sadly chosen to support the fascists of the BNP - so too did the purpose of Devine’s appearance become obvious. Not content with the familiar, safe and comfortable comparison with anti-Catholic parties of the 1920s and 1930s, Devine moved on to the real point: "The BNP have been cultivating parts of Scotland, especially outside certain football grounds, for some years." The implication hardly needs explaining. But there are some real problems here.




Firstly, of what relevance to this by-election result are the occasional, largely futile attempts by BNP members to provoke interest in people in the areas near football grounds, ours included? Are we to imagine this influenced a large number of the 1,013 voters who marked their X in favour of the BNP candidate? Secondly, wouldn’t it be more likely that the significant presence of immigrants and asylum seekers forced into the northern area of the constituency would have an effect on the votes cast; rightly or wrongly, it is certainly more likely than those in Dennistoun townhouses being responsible for the considerable fascist vote. Regardless, Glasgow North East is, in parts, one of the most deprived and certainly among the most Roman Catholic of Scottish seats, and yet the prominent economic and social historian – undoubtedly the greatest of his era in those complementary disciplines – offered very little on those factors, choosing instead to make considered digs and concentrate on bizarre or unworthy considerations.

Those of us who pay attention to the BBC Scotland output – on radio, television and often their online content – should need no reminding that there is an acceptance within the walls of Pacific Quay of certain core principles: David Kerr, SNP candidate for Glasgow North East, would have found comfort while working there, sharing as he did with at least two senior members of the corporation the dubious distinction of membership of Opus Dei. (11) Too often in recent years the BBC in Scotland have made Rangers the poster child for sectarianism and for all the ills of present-day Scotland. The fact they were so comfortable allowing Tom Devine to push his agenda on a programme which should have been debating the serious issues of the day may come as no surprise, but it is me, you, your friends and all your family who helped pay for it. And it will continue until and unless fans’ groups and the Club itself can work together to combat it.

There is presently a danger that in the desire to fight many battles concurrently those Rangers fans who feel that the Club and the fans deserve to be better represented – and protected from partial poison – may have their effort drained and their resources challenged when firing at too many targets. The BBC should be, has to be, the priority. Newspapers are dying, we have also the option to ignore them and choose not to grant them our custom, but state television and radio are going nowhere: and the national broadcaster must be held to a higher standard - especially when we are obligated to pay for the very bile and agenda that demeans and is intended to demonise.







--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman....purned-for-Jacobites39.5805090.jp

2.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/...t_contributors/article6789298.ece

3.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/article6908047.ece is but a recent example.

4.

http://www.shc.ed.ac.uk/scothistory/staff/devine.htm

5.

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/comment/The-Shame-Game.4489953.jp

6.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/2274383.stm

7.

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=147863

8.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sectarian...cotland-Steve-Bruce/dp/0748619119

9.

http://www.abdn.ac.uk/mediareleases/release.php?id=123

10.

http://www.timeshighereducation.c...oryCode=195824&sectioncode=26

11.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/snp...-his-opus-dei-membership-1.850446


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Dave Coull

malcolmtucker wrote:
Devine Intervention: Sinister and Unwelcome.
An interesting article, but you forgot to mention that it first appeared on the Rangers fanzine website "Follow, Follow". http://www.followfollow.com/news/loadnews.asp?cid=TMNW&id=472848  and that it was written by "Archie Duncan's Spectacles".
Rinty

He fails to mention that devines book 'scotlands shame' also includes protestant leaders and the grandmaster of the orange lodge.  oops. Smile

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