Title Decider?

Reluctant Hero · Title Decider?

It would be an occasion that everybody would want to see. The two best teams in the league going head to head for a winner takes all match.

Visions of Liverpool vs Arsenal in 1989 spring to mind. Tension, excitement, agony and ecstasy all rolled into one.

TV companies are creaming themselves in anticipation of a bumper viewing audience and the prospect of charging trillions for advertising time during the programme.

Quite simply it is a game everybody wants to see.

Not in Scotland apparently. People seem to think that every effort should be made to avoid a title decider.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/scot_prem/7336973.stm

youatethebabyjesus · Re: Title Decider?

Rinty

I think it is ridiculous. Admitting defeat beacuse of events a few yaers ago is nonsense. We had a riot at a scottish cup finla between celtic and rangers fans and we dont ban them from playing against each other in a cup final.

I have seen celtic win the league at Ibrox and win it at celtic park against rangers and there was no trouble, why take the worst example as the standard.

Only by allowing these games to happen and stewarding them better will we get over this, running away from the problem isn't a solution.

The real trouble is after the game across the city and in other towns, avoiding an exciting climax to the season won't change that.

Anyway, it hasn't been avoided as Rangers can win the league on the 27th if they beat celtic on wednesday. I don't think that they will though, and, because of the fixture backlog, think that Rangers will not win the league (if they do win it) until the last week when they will be playing three games in one week looking for a few points to win it.

youatethebabyjesus

youatethebabyjesus

i've been watching rangers for 30 years at ibrox, i can't recall celtic ever clinching the leauge at ibrox, i may have chosen to dissolve this horrible occurence in my mind right enough.

Rinty

You might be tecchnically right actually. 87/88 was certainly treated as that, if memory serves me right we went 16 pnts clear by winning at Ibrox with 8 games left (it was 2 pts for a win then).

I dont think the game in 99 was anything like a riot. The lessons learned were in Kick-off times and better stewarding. It was a partcularly bad-tempered game and some players behaviour made it worse, and not the norm or anything like it.

Anyway, you are wrong, as the police, the footall authorities and the clubs have agreed to schedule the last old fim game on the 27th meaning that Rangers CAN win the league at Celtic Park this season.

They won't though Smile

youatethebabyjesus

Reluctant Hero

Think Celtic should be deducted 10 points for that coin throwing incident tonight Wink

youatethebabyjesus

Rinty

I dont think that the behavior of a handful of celtic fans that day was the worst for 30 years as you suggest, no worse than rangers fans at pittodrie or celtics fans behaviour at other grounds, in fact many fans in many places.

The SFA, rangers and celtic and the police reviewed and changed kick-off times and stewarding tactics as a result of the incidents. That is what happened, the police did not, as you suggest, change the idea that a title decider could take place. As I said the police ok'ed the potential title decider, so you are wrong on that, they will insist on an early kick-off though and the stewards at CP will be using different tactics than they did that night.

The main findings of the inquiry was that the behaviour of players caused the trouble and celtic were fined for failing to control their players. there was criticism of both sets of players for the various scuffles on the pitch that led to 3 red cards and twelve yellows.

youatethebabyjesus

really, i'd bedelighted if you could tell me (since 1980) where a group of football fans behaved worse than the celtic fans at p/head in 99. this is revisionism at it's best by celtic fans, that is the worst behaviour by any scottish fans since 1980, no arguments.

the celtic fans were a disgrace last night as well with missile throwing and 2 rangers supporters buses attacked after the game.

never mind the secterian abuse of the 'masonic' referee!

Fedayn

Fedayn

Rinty

IT AS PRETTY BAD BUT MY VIEW HARDLY REPRESENT SCELTIC FAns orcounts as revisionism.

The outcome of the inquiries into that evening was that we shouldnt have later kick-offs for natches such as this and celtic acted immediately to address stewarding problems. The SFA fined celtic for the behaviour of the players that they said led to the trouble.

It is you who are guilty of revisionism by saying that the police decided that tile deciders couldnt be old fim games. Their decision to allow the 27th april match this season when it could have been a decider proves that.

As for buses being attacked after games, are you talking about the behaviour in the ground oroutside, if you are talking about outside then fans have died in assaults following matches, if you are talking about inside the ground then we have seen behaviour as bad.

You may have missed the abrdeen v rangers in 2002 match when robbie winters was hit by a coin and aberdeen fans invaded the pitch, that was very similar to the game in 99, coin throwing and pitch invasions. The match was held up for 17 minutes as a result.

In the early 80's at aberdeen I remember our supporters bus being like an ambulance after an attack from casuals. To isolate this gane as the worst is to ignre everything else, especially if we are talking about both inside and outside the stadium.

I have no intention of justifying the arseholes who caused the trouble in 99, on and off the pitch, but you have led a sheltered life if that is the worst trouble you have seen in 30 years.

And, you are wrong as the police DO allow an old firm title decider and stewarding and kick-off times WERE addresssed as a result of the disgraceful behaviour of a small section of the support that night.

youatethebabyjesus

creltic addresssed the stewarding problem?
really?
lighters, coins,pies and pich invasions and thats just in the last 2 years or so.
the may 99 behaviour was the worst since 1980, i would say the abrdenn fans come 2nd with the display you refer to but at least the ref did not have blood pouring from his head after an assualt by missiles, thankfully rangers players stopped the invading celtic fans getting at mr. dallas.

revisionism.

and lets not forget the secterian masonic chanting from last night.

Rinty

I didnt notice sectarian chanting last night, but I dont go looking for those things.

as I said, I am will not be justifying the actions of celtic players and/or supporters on that night so you are arguing with the wrong person. I havent attempted to revise any if it and havent disputed your account of that match. It was disgraceful behaviour.

Where we do disagree is your assertion that kick-off times, stewarding and players behaviour had nothing to do with it and that the police now insist on no old firm title deciders. It was only 2 weeks ago that the police agreed to a date that could heve been a title decider

Old firm games since that day have had earlier kick-offs at the insistence of police, celtic were fined for the behaviour of the players and the SFA acknowledged that Celtic review of stewarding was done swiftly and took that into account when deciding the fine.

The night in 2002 at pittodrie saw an Aberdeen player coined by a Rangers supporter and a subsequent pitch invasion by aberdeen supporters and led to the Ibrox security chief saying that Rangers v Aberdeen matches were now a bigger security concern and harder to police than old firm matches. It's just a matter of opinion which is worse.

I would say that the scariest and most violent times were the early 80's in general.
Idiots are idiots and all clubs have them. Your attempt to make this an issue of celtic fans being worse/better than rangers fans is nonsense.

The idiots who sing about Charlie adams non-existent sisters pants are no better or worse than those who think racist non-jokes about nakamura is a sutable banner or song for a football ground. I dont know why you think that there is a preferable type of idiot based on what scarf they wear!

youatethebabyjesus

i must be stupid cos i think the worst behaved fans are the ones who more often and CONSITENTLY throw missiles at opposing players and the referee and invade the pitch. you know, i know,EVERYONE knows only 1 club far excedes any other when guilty of breaching security at their own ground in scotland.

i do not give a chuff about what people sing, i do not partake myself but people who complain about celtic/rangers fans offensive chants are mostly jumping on the offended bus, they are mostly just numpties.

i do care about not being hit by a coin or lighter or seeing the ref being physically attacked or my team/backroom staff being assaulted by missiles.or having my bus attacked.

undignified in deafeat, undignified in victory.the greatest fans in the world.

Rinty

I have no interest in your pathetic competition about whose thugs are better/worse than the other.

I would agree that missile throwers are the worst offenders, mainly because it cannot be prevented.

It can,however, be identified these days and clubs take action against the individual.

My personal opinion is that banning individuals for life does send out a message but it doesnt work as we can see at many grounds, CP, Ibrox, Pittodrie for example.

I would contemplate a match behind closed doors or maybe closing a specific stand for one game when it becomes a repeat problem from one group of fans. But we are talking about a handful of incidents over a period of ten years and including missiles thrown by away fans so we have to be careful. If the home team are punished severely for coin throwing, say by deducting points, then how hard would it be for a fan to get into the home end at a game and throw a coin to deliberately get the other teams points docked?

As I said, you wil get no argument from me about the behaviour of fans, I dont see what you get out of some imaginary league table of who is the best/worst behaved supporters.

The buses being attacked is another issue. That happens in many places and I have been on celtic supporter's buses where it has happened twice over the years. One of those was our local bus being bricked in our own home town, once in Glasgow on the way back from an old firm game. It is pointless to start counting who is the worst/best away from grounds and doesnt consider that those of us who faced a terrifying attack on a bus have seen nothing compared to the fans who have died as a result of old firm violence.

Idiots and thugs are idiots and thugs no matter what scarf they wear mate, you should be wary of taking pleasure from the idiots and thugs in green and white scarfs and should be aware that your own fans are no angels.

Rinty

I have no interest in your pathetic competition about whose thugs are better/worse than the other.

I would agree that missile throwers are the worst offenders, mainly because it cannot be prevented.

It can,however, be identified these days and clubs take action against the individual.

My personal opinion is that banning individuals for life does send out a message but it doesnt work as we can see at many grounds, CP, Ibrox, Pittodrie for example.

I would contemplate a match behind closed doors or maybe closing a specific stand for one game when it becomes a repeat problem from one group of fans. But we are talking about a handful of incidents over a period of ten years and including missiles thrown by away fans so we have to be careful. If the home team are punished severely for coin throwing, say by deducting points, then how hard would it be for a fan to get into the home end at a game and throw a coin to deliberately get the other teams points docked?

As I said, you wil get no argument from me about the behaviour of fans, I dont see what you get out of some imaginary league table of who is the best/worst behaved supporters.

The buses being attacked is another issue. That happens in many places and I have been on celtic supporter's buses where it has happened twice over the years. One of those was our local bus being bricked in our own home town, once in Glasgow on the way back from an old firm game. It is pointless to start counting who is the worst/best away from grounds and doesnt consider that those of us who faced a terrifying attack on a bus have seen nothing compared to the fans who have died as a result of old firm violence.

Idiots and thugs are idiots and thugs no matter what scarf they wear mate, you should be wary of taking pleasure from the idiots and thugs in green and white scarfs and should be aware that your own fans are no angels.

youatethebabyjesus

there is a repugnant element to the rangers support, i wish they would leave us alone. we ARE NOT guilty of consistently invading pitches and throwing missiles. you can dress this up any way you want.celtic fans are the most thuggish and disorderly in nscotland by a distance.

Rinty

our thugs are better than your thugs?

The idiots that carry out the acts are not the support of that team by any stretch of the imagination.

There have been several murders of celtic fans by rangers fans, but this doesnt mean, at least to me, that rangers 'consistently' murder people or that the rest of the rangers support should be tarnished with that brush.

To say that celtic fans 'consistently' throw missiles is a massive stretch of the meaning of consistent. Even duirng this thread there are references to three incidents of missile throwing be rangers fans mentions, against Winters, Petrov and Robson.

I would say that Celtic need to take action to put a stop to this as it has been several times now and, as I said, stronger measures need to be taken.

I assume that Rangers and Celtic are both trying to identify the culprits as both sets of fans had missile throwers in their end at the last match, but banning the individuals hasnt worked so far.

You have no interest in doing anything about this, only in trying to show celtic as worse than rangers fans.

I would say that it is almost impossible to stop but we have to get it n perspective. We have been discussing the events from season 98/99 till now, a total of ten seasons. During that time we can identfy maybe ten incidents of missile throwing, mostly from celtic, rangers and aberdeen fans. I reckon something like three millions clicks over the turnstiles during that period gives us a problem coming from 0.001% of fans at the very most.

I have no interest in your 'our fans are better than your fans' debate.

The worst incident this year was, without doubt, the Dundee United v Aberdeen CIS semi-final with both goal moths being bombarded with coins, lighters, pies etc. This not unique to celtic or to scotland.

I was angry when I heard about the missile throwing last week, I hope we can pin down the arsehole who did it and ban him. These people waste the game for the rest of us, like the racist chanters and thugs who attack buses and individuals after matches.

What do you think we should do?

youatethebabyjesus

rangers fans do not consistently (however you want to define it???!!!) throw missiles and attack opposing players and the refs like the supporters of scumtic.

scumtic fans are the worst behaved in scotland, everyone knows this.

there is no chance of the missile throwers being caught due to the 'stewarding' at sellik park.

scumtics problem is due to inhouse stewrding, i know for a fact that stewards take small bribes to let fans in without tickets. that came from one of the stewards and a a colleauge who has used this serice on a few occasions.

Rinty

As I said, I have no interest in your 'our thugs are better than your thugs' debate.

azzuri

I think what we can all agree on is that both Rangers AND Celtic have a thuggish element to their respective supports...

Rinty

And most teams. As I said, the worst missile throwing this season was the CIS semi between Aberdeen and Dundee United.

But society has thugs, bigger teams with bigger supports have more thugs. It is only a patch compared to the problems in Italy, Turkey and other countries.

The missile throwin parkhead HAS to stop but we should be wary of drawing together unrelated incidents from across a decade and trying to portray that as 'consistent' behaviour.

The problem is with missile throwing is that it is difficult to stop. It's easier to deal with the aftermath and ban the individual (even thats not always easy) but what sanction is appropriate?

Should the sanction be a flat punishment across the board or should each incident be treated individually? If you dock points then it would be easy for me to throw a coin from the rangers end and get points deducted from them.

Also what do you do when both sets throw missiles, like the last old firm game. If both teams have to lose points what is the point of playing the match. We might as well abandon the game when the missiles hit the pitch.

Closing stands and stadiums could be considered but again, how do we make sure it works? If the coins come from the away support does that mean that teams fans are banned from travelling or is it that all away fans are banned fom that ground?

We need respected players to speak about this in strong terms, but I am not sure that any sanction could work or be immune to abuse.

BTW azzuri, I was once hit by a missile at Rugy Park that didnt quite reach the pitch, we never read about those ones. It was a stone and it didnt injure me. The match was an end of season game against st johnstone a few years ago.

But, celtic park will get a reputation if they dont do something about this. That would be sad as their fans are, quite rightly, applauded in every country they travel to.

azzuri

...throwing the odd missile is one thing,

hundreds of seats being damaged in the same stadium by the same fans twice in three seasons is another.

amongst Kilmarnock fans, Celtic fans already have a 'repuation' for violence and destruction...

youatethebabyjesus

[quote="?

But, celtic park will get a reputation if they dont do something about this. That would be sad as their fans are, quite rightly, applauded in every country they travel to.[/quote]

'will' are you living in an altered universe, celtic park HAS a repuation for missile throwing and pitch invasions. a typically tragic celtic fan, deflect, deny and revise.

youatethebabyjesus

Rinty

Aye, the seats thing was terrible azzurri, dont know what possesses the kind of wankers that did that.

Of course,according to our latest pest from follow, follow, it is unique to celtic and thugs dont exist anywhere else.

As I said, I dont know what the answer is to the missile throwing, the last old firm game saw missiles thrown from both ends of the ground ad the CIS semi final saw Jamie Langfiled showrede by missiles, again both sets of fans threw the missiles.

In the example of the Rapid Vienna game there were two problems there. One was some celtic fans and journalists thought that it was relevant that the missile didnt hit the player, to me that was irelevant. I was in the area where the ottle was thrown from that night and me and some friends ended uo in a fight amongst our own fans with thugs behind us.

Secondly, the sanction clearly didnt work as two celtic fans invaded the pitch at the replayed game in Manchester.

I watched the Milan game in a pub in barcelona and the prick that went for Dida angered me, it could have cost celtic millions and one of these days it will if it doesnt stop.

I have NEVER attempted to say these things didnt happen or spin any of it, babyjesus is arguing with someone else.

It puts me off football, as does the racism and general behaviour of fans, celtic and others.

youatethebabyjesus

Rinty

you would like to be arguing with that guy but I admit, despair, condemn and discuss. No denials, deflections or revision. I cant really make it much clearer. What you are doing is ignoring my posts to pretend that you are arguing with someone who denies or revises the behaviour of celtic fans as you dont have any other argument.

The only revision here is that you have now revised you concept of 'consistent' to go back over a period of 25 years to the rapid vienna game instead of going back te years to the old firm game.

The only deflection is you trying to deflect the whole thing from the fact you got it wrong re the police and a title decider.

The only denial is your denial that the missile throwing exists among aberdeen rangers dundee united and other sets of fans, and that is this season, no need to go back years for it.

I will try to make my position clearer for you.

Celtic have now had too many incidents of missile throwing. I believe that SFA need to look at some kind of sanction against them to set an example.

Reluctant Hero

Celtic must be favourite for the game this weekend, although breaking down the Rangers 10 man defence may be a bit of a problem Razz

If Rangers do win the 4 trophies, will they add another star above their badge to signify the occasion. They'll have more stars up there than the Star Spangled Banner soon.

Wonder if County will have a star above their badge next season to show that they won the Div 2 title this season Laughing

Morph

you should put one on Hero, teams seem to put them on for anything now,Brazil have a lot to answer for lol!

next killie will be putting the old 'ayrshire cup' stars up there Very Happy

frank rizzo

It's a bit bizzare to see a Che flag flown by the Celtic support while many of their fans idolise a homophobic, reactionary institution.

azzuri

...Boruc is a f***ing idiot.

These players should be taken round the A & E wards in Glasgow the night following an old firm game to see what effect their actions have. Seriously, what an absolute c**t.

Cymro

youatethebabyjesus

nothing will be done to borat. the celtic pr machine will go into overdrive and if there is even any hint of any punishment the celtic pr will go mental and the fans will cry 'thats pyooooor shicterieeeean n aw 'nat ya biguts'.

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Cymro

youatethebabyjesus

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its also interesting there has been no discussion thus far of the celtic fan murdered for being a celtic fan or the banner "voodooo no worky" which was aimed at boruc the last time celtic played at ibrox.

artur boruc has to suffer banners, police warnings for blessing himself and many choice insults for his religion from rangers fans yet these types are to then be treated with kid gloves lest they not go out and kill and injure even more people?

as i have already said this is the only country where this would even be an issue.

had eto revealed a "proud to be black" t shirt at barca's next game v osasuna i would bet all the types on here would be congratulating him for standing up to the racists. artur boruc does the same and is condemned while the world looks on wondering exactly what the problem is with a pope t shirt.

artur boruc has actually done us all a favour for exposing the undercurrent of anti catholic hatred with exists in this country.

youatethebabyjesus

azzuri

youatethebabyjesus

Cymro

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youatethebabyjesus

expressing your religion is one thing, whoring it is another.

agentmancuso

agentmancuso

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[quote="Cymro"]

azzuri

youatethebabyjesus

[quote="parkhead_rfb"]

frank rizzo

I've little time for any religious institution and find the general idea of a supreme sky fairy ridiculous. Splitting hairs about who has the best brand (as loads of daft old firm fans do) is just a pointless waste of energy if you ask me.
Boruc can pray to whatever the hell he likes and I certainly took no offence to his t shirt, even though that guy had deeply reactionary, homophobic and down right disturbing views. He was just another leader of a belief system I dont buy into.
The actions of Boruc actually done two things - it belittled his faith as that was done purely to antagonise the rangers support and it made a mockery of celtic's 'inclusive club' image.
Of course loads of ignorant bigots took offence to the t shirt because they're paranoid, neanderthal bigots, but thats not the point here ParkeadRFB.

I'm sure you know that though.

Cymro

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Cymro

youatethebabyjesus

Cymro

Would you be happy if a Rangers player wore a t-shirt with God Save the Queen or possibly an Orange Sash in the next Old Firm match?

After all, whats good for the goose is good for the gander and all that.

youatethebabyjesus

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Title Decider?

Re: Title Decider?