| Archive for Our Scotland - www.our-scotland.org Scottish Politics Discussion Forum / Messageboard - Dedicated to online discussion about Scottish Politics and an Independent Scotland, as well as Scottish Society today. We also have a section dedicated to Banter, Sport and Recommended Sites. |
| Stevie |
Tories terrorise the meek and the lame.From the Daily Mash : funny but true.
The Tories are showing their true blue blood colours again. (Not aimed at the nice Tory who simply follows the economic nonsense of failed capitalism but is aimed only at the miserable old Thatcherite tory who would shove his granny out on the street for not being able to go out and get a job and earn a decent living. "Granny, if you can sit upright you can work you old c**t".). This ageing population of old b******s who think they can just whinge and suck of the state. They will be mobilised. It's time to reinstate the poll tax. Privatisation, free enterprise, free market economy, free trade... 'Deutschland Deutschland über alles... ' Yes, the old songs are the best. Some drink to remember, some drink to forget. When will that old boot finally drink herself to death anyway and make us foot the 3 million pound state funeral bill? The joke at the Edinburgh festival was : £3, 000, 000 !!! For that kind of money you can buy every man, woman and child in Scotland a shovel and we'll dig a hole so deep, we'll deliver her to Satan personally. Oh yes, Ultra you can't do this kind of post on Twitter even if you wanted to. |
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| landg |
i'm afraid there are so many abusing the benefits system that hard line policies are required. | ||||||||||||||||||
| Shagpile |
Re: Tories terrorise the meek and the lame.
Thing is....... where are all the jobs for those currently claiming this benefit PLUS all those claiming Job Seekers' Allowance? You're right btw, and what a waste of tax payers' money if they were to follow through on that. I'm sure the money could be better spent on payments to those who would cut the grass on the football pitch size lawns on an MPs second home....... at least the money would have been earned. Even if you have to slip a brown envelope into their greasy palm to get the contract. Labour are just the same too. Lib Dems....... they pawned THEIR ideoligy to sleep with Labour. There's something about ministerial mondeos that drive them crazy with lust for unawarded power. |
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| Ultra |
Re: Tories terrorise the meek and the lame.
Twitters one to many communication. Try it. |
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| Stevie |
Re: Tories terrorise the meek and the lame.
Thatcher's legacy was to create an indolent lumpen proletariat lost generation. A simpler solution as I think you said is give them some money and let them earn extra on top tax free. Them , being the lumpen ones. Twitter seems to be full of twits (sorry) and they follow you like a virus even if they have nothing in common with you but I'll have a look. Can you suggest anywhere to look? |
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| landg |
Re: Tories terrorise the meek and the lame.
there won't be any, but it is cheaper to pay jobseekers allowance than it is to pay incapacity ( to criminals who are ripping you and i off). 2+2= less benefits paid out and we are not being scammed by criminals. win win. |
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| Holebender |
My wife suffered a brain haemorrhage which damaged her short term memory and rendered her blind. She receives incapacity benefit. Is she a criminal? Is she ripping you off?
Or are you maybe just an unthinking boor who need to learn to think before opening his mouth and letting his belly rumble? |
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| Stevie |
Sorry about your wife holeb, can't be easy for you at times.
Don't think he was really meaning genuine cases like yours but the guys who run onto football fields to score a goal and do break dancing on TV. This mortal coil gets twisted and tangled at times but you are lucky to have each other and that's the thing that counts. |
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| landg |
for f***s sake, are you that stupid? do you really think ANYONE thinks that everyone on incapacity is 'at it'. i want the fraudsters and scammers who are on incapacity (there are hundreds of thousands of them) taken off it and put on the cheaper (to the country) jobsekkers. get over yourself. |
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| Rinty |
My son is also on incapacity benefit and couldnt possibly work. In fact, I dont know anyone who is on incapacity benefit who shouldnt be. | ||||||||||||||||||
| landg |
i've met a lot of people who are on incapacity benefit who are fit to work. and there are a LOT of them out there. they are scamming the system. |
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| Rinty |
that maybe the case landg but there are people scamming every system, it doesnt mean that we can start labelling everyone using that system. I know lots of people who work in banks who didnt abuse the system and I know many politicians who dont abuse expenses.
It is very difficult to get incapacity benefit. |
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| Holebender |
landg, perhaps you should engage your brain before spouting your offensive generalisations. It is you who comes across as stupid, but that's nothing new.
If you want to look for people scamming the incapacity system look back at the Thatcher government. They had a policy of shifting long-term unemployed people onto incapacity benefits in order to get them off the unemployment register so the figures didn't look so bad. You can't blame the individuals involved for doing what they were told by government representatives. |
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| Stevie |
The system is the system.
Second guessing the people who decide you qualify for incapacity benefit is frankly pointless and ridiculous. Especially, I might add, as the criteria are quite stringent as it is. Anyway, back to the sulphurous one, Thatcher. She created the problem with her destruction of the job market and her creation of a lost generation. When will the bringer of evil just f***ing die. Well, it's a moot point as Alasdair said. She has been cloned and morphed into D Cam GB and Tory Blair... |
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| Alasdair |
Yup, even in death she'll still be screwing the tax payer, state funeral indeed! |
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| landg |
what you fail to understand is that the people scamming the benefits system are the very ones who are taking from the people who genuinely need incapacity benefit. the scammers are the ones who caused the situation where the genuinely incapacitated need to jump through hoops just to get the benefit.
to blame margaret thatcher for 20 year old scumbags scamming the benefits system is just ridiculous. nice to know your looking forward to someone dying. what a lovely and considerate person you are.what a horrible mindset to have. |
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| Stevie |
Whenever I speak of Thatchula, invective quickly turns to expletive. Why that creature merits a state funeral is quite beyond the understanding of all but G B her disciple. State funeral for John Major next? |
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| Ultra |
Thatcher has not been in Government for decades but people still blame her for the countries ills. Not everyone on benefits is scamming the system. But a fair minority do or don't want to work as it's far better and easier to claim benefits. Some of them can't work through drink and drug abuse. Resources and cash are used up dealing with benefit scammer while genuine claiments suffer and don't get the help and extra cash they need. I don't know anyone on incapacity benefits these days as I moved out of a Glasgow scheme to a new build estate a few years ago. But when I lived in the scheme folk could tell you how to scam the system. Back pain being the scammers choice of illness. Still didn't stop these scammers being first in the queue for their benefits or waiting at 8am for the off license to open. Least the SNP Government have changed the licensing laws and given these folk a few extra hours sleep as it's 10am now. |
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| landg |
really? why? |
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| Stevie |
Of course there are some people who would rather exert their fullest energies and motivation into the avoidance of work but Thatcher created an economy based on rich and poor and it's still there. Moreover, the GBs and D cams of this world think it's acceptable to continue the social divide : GB through apathy and incompetence (billions upon billions in debt); D Cam because it's simply who he is. It becomes time to pick on the scammers now that the idiot GB has built up enough debt to finance a space program. It's now their fault that GB and the Tories (they sat by and never said much) let the financial institutions run riot. Oh for the good old days when public debt was in the 10s of billions... |
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| Aventinian |
Re: Tories terrorise the meek and the lame.
Hear, hear.
What was that you seemed to be suggesting about socialists being somehow more humane? Can't expect anything less from the politics of failure.
He didn't say or imply anything of the sort. |
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| Holebender |
Re: Tories terrorise the meek and the lame.
Oh sorry Aventinian, I missed that part in small print about the criminal scammers only being a tiny portion of the people who receive incapacity benefits. Maybe you could point it out to me? |
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| Shagpile |
Capacity to be a Doctor. Incapacity to be objective...... Are you a Doctor? Capacity to "finger" Tory against Labour? MMWWAAHHAAAAAHHAAAAA....... he just couldn't make it up! |
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| Ultra |
Thatcher got into power due to the SNP backing her at the Westminister elections because it served their purpose. Thatcher hasn't been in power for decades either but yet is still blamed for the remaining political parties failing to sort out issues like this as they would rather concentrate on independence referendums. |
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| Holebender |
Good grief! I've seen lots of revisionist versions of 1979, but that one takes the biscuit. The SNP did not support Thatcher in any way, they, along with all other opposition parties, joined in a vote of no confidence in the Labour government, which triggered the general election which brought Thatcher into power. That's it. | ||||||||||||||||||
| Aventinian |
Re: Tories terrorise the meek and the lame.
A failure to remark that something is not the case does not show a belief that it is the case, particularly where the point in question is bloody obvious. |
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| landg |
Re: Tories terrorise the meek and the lame.
'a tiny proportion'. for f***s sake, where do get your information? your talking s***e. |
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| Stevie |
I can honestly say you had to be there. I suspect your not of an age to have experienced the full glory of Thatcher's criminal politics. As far as the SNP letting Thatcher into power, LOL dear Ultra, you should really check out the shenanigans that was the comedy of Jim Callaghan's Labour government? Quite ridiculous really... Labour are corrupt and dead, they just don't know it yet. Actually, 'Labour' is dead but I'm referring to 'New Labour' (you know, the far right GB junta). The Tories aren't dead but are alive and kicking at the moment but their day will come. MY PREDICTION : Labour will crumble and the Lib dems will become the second force in British politics. My predictions are usually not too far off the mark. I predicted a while back Harriet Harmon would become the new Thatcherite leader of the Labour party and still think so. |
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| Holebender |
Re: Tories terrorise the meek and the lame.
So, despite all those well-meaning folk desperately trying to defend you, you are in fact saying a sizeable number of people on invalidity benefits are scamming thieves. Would you care to offer us an estimate of how many? Half? Three quarters? All? |
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| Stevie |
True, it's easy to say something but actually justifying it requires facts and in this case there are NO figures because if you're caught you're struck off incapacity benefit and thus they are all de facto genuine claimants.
However, there are some Dirty Rotten Scoundrels. 
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| landg |
there are all sorts of facts on figures on benefit fraud in the dwp website. fraud is rife, it is not a tiny minority and costs £2,000,000,000 per year. thats £2,000,000,000 taken away from genuine claimants. to say it is a tiny minority is like a really bad socialist mind trick. ie. a BIG FAT LIE. |
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| Shagpile |
Crap! Do you mean we can afford to pay an additional £2bn to claimants....... but we cant because there's too many claimants? Sorry, but you've gotta explainthat a tad better. |
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| Ultra |
Pretty clear to me that Landg is talking about fraud costing £2bn to the tax payer due to fraudulent claimants and that money could be used to help genuine claimants more. It's not difficult to understand when you don't apply blinkered selective reading to some peoples posts. So what point are you trying to make Shag? We have too many claimants or we have no fraudulent claimants? I'm failing to see how your post actually contributes to any debate we are having here. |
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| Stevie |
I had a look at the dwp site and didn't see any financial figures.
Where did you get your figures. Incidentally, of course some gits are claiming falsely (corruption exists in every system, not least the banks and government) but a total of £2 billion is heresay because you can only estimate such figures, you can't prove them. Unless you managed to remove £2 billion of fraudulent claims from the books last year... ridiculous suggestion. The dwp site looks like a 'report your hated neighbour site' and as thus can't be relied on to give an unbiased result : it's their job to see fraud everywhere and I suppose they do. As matter of fact the dwp seems to cost more to run than it saves apparently (£154 million) according to Computer Weekly http://www.computerweekly.com/Art...nefit-fraud-detection-systems.htm Computer Weekly... well it's no more or less reliable than the silly figure of £2 billion suggested or an even sillier preposterous figure of £170 billion (oh... that one's real, GB the grand high rythme master... well what about the silly idea that a member of parliament would get his moat cleaned at the public expense... mmn that one's true too)... oh f**k it, let's get the poor and the sick, those whingeing b******s have it coming! Again, the meek and lame are the targets of the Uber Tories (actually they're the target of the Uber Labour Tories too), Thatcher is alive and well, and living in Downing street. Oh incidentally, I've come to realise I'm the only person that realises that GB only wears blue ties these days. Why is that? |
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| Stevie |
It's pretty clear to me that the right wing extravaganza that is the Ultra and landg show ought to check its figures in at the common sense logic department before pronouncing such things... but hey, I am willing to admit that anything is possible. And I am smiling at your enthusiasm for the preference toward belief over facts. It's fun to see the developing young Uber Tory at work... |
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| Ultra |
I didn't put up any figures on how much benefit fraud costs? How much is it? I am smiling from the fact that you actually went to look at the DWP site to try and prove some sort of point. Have you not got anything better to do? 
The figures on benefit fraud are there if you look hard enough... You fraud! I suppose keeping it in the family is better. |
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| Stevie |
No, you didn't but you supported your right hand man's loony tune figures.
I only had a look for a laugh because anybody who throws out such a suggestion thinks we're all too lazy to check it out. Simple really, tap dwp and all this nonsense of landg is seen for what it is. Of course the result is, he'll be reminded of his nonsense figures every time he tries to say something's a fact. Deutchland Deutchland über alles... They save £106 million but they cost £154 million... if you're willing to believe 'ComputerWeekly'... I'm not but they're more credible than landg : see it's started already... Advice, don't support landg unless you already know he's right (I'm not sure if he ever is based on this newest abberation... see, happened again). |
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| Ultra |
Why would you want to 'check it out'?
What's Computer Weekly got to do with you providing the true cost of benefit fraud from the DWP site? http://www.benefitfraud.org.uk/total-benefit-fraud/index.html The £2bn figure actually came from this site as it was extensively reported in the UK media. Maybe these sort of 'Daily Mail' type stories don't reach you overseas? |
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| Stevie |
Okay, I get your point but we're talking about 'incapacity benefit fraud' and landg is encompassing everything into his one particular pot of... who knows?
I'm not convinced by these figures either. Just about as reliable as the government figures and the Computer Weekly figures. Still, the £2 billion has bug all to do with incapacity benefit claimants. I wonder if I can claim for some moat cleaning... ? |
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| Rinty |
The 2B figure is an old one which is now usually reported as an estimated 800M.
However, this is a guess and pushed mostly by those who want to cut the welfare system. The last full years figures that I can find (2006/7) showed a total of 105M identified as overpaid due to fraud. It cost, as has been said, 154M to discover this fraud, meaning a los of 49M that could be spent on genuine claimants 
In 2007 it was estimated that a total of 339M was unrecovered from overpayments due to fraud, this was the accumulative historical total, not one years money, the total money! There is no evidence that I can see to suggest that any savings from benefit fraud would lead to increased payments for existing claimants, that is a red herring. Calculations on how much claimants get is usually based on the minimum that they can get away with. It would be more likely to be spent in reducing business taxes
Meanwhile in 2004/05, the last figures that I could find, there was between 4.8B and 8B unclaimed benefits, with the DWP spending far less trying to track down the underclaimants than the fraudsters. Many of the underclaimants are the very people who suffer form social and/or mental health problems, the very ones that right-wingers accuse of being the scroungers. |
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| Stevie |
Just a thought.
What kind of scummy lowlife fish sniffing dung-smelling weedy little excuse for a man or woman actually does the job of catch the wicked benefit thief anyway. If anyone reading this happens to be one of those DWP 'investigators' or 'agents' or whatever euphemism for slimy little creep they use... then shame on you. |
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| Shagpile |
Ultra, you have a spectacular ability in missing the point. Thankfully, Rinty has penned; in his usual eloquence, the point I would have gotten round to make....... yet he's made it better than I would have. Stevie is spot on with his assesment of landg's polotics on this point, and yours too when it comes down to it. |
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| Alasdair |
Just for the record. In my metaphorical (as opposed to metaphysical) previous life as an HR/Personnel Manager I would happily report people who I had cause to believe were scamming the system. Why should people be allowed to abuse the system to their own benefit and to the cost of the rest of us? I also worked with the folks from immigration to: a) report non-UK nationals working with or attempting to work with false documents; b) take action against a temp agency that was knowingly using non-UK nationals who did not have the right to work. The agency was also taking advantage of asylum seekers who did have the right to work, but did not know their employment rights. I have no guilt about any of this, nor do I believe I should. People who scam the system take vital pounds out of the public purse and it is something that should be discouraged in whatever fashion best fits. The same goes for MP's and the current scandal they are caught up in, they are no better than the benefits cheats. So, that'll be my cards on the table then. |
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| Holebender |
You have nothing to feel guilty about Al.
I do have qualms about some people who will report a neighbour just because they don't like the person and the accusation is completely groundless. Those people really are scum who are wasting everyone's time and ruining reputations while they're at it. |
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| Stevie |
Alasdair, nothing to do with the beastly people I revile.
As I said, Thatcher's minions and 'The Boys from the Blackstuff'. Quite another kettle of fish. |
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| Ultra |
Is that the point you couldn't make at the time by yourself and had to wait until others users suggested it before you jumped on the band wagon? 
I already knew what figures Rinty was talking about as my link contains a link to those figures on the DWP website. So you are spectacularly wrong. Oh dear. You have no idea on my politics when it comes to the subject of benefit cheats as they are pretty much in line with what Alasdair has commented. So are you one of these people who believes that it's ok to cheat the benefit system because you can? Maybe you do cheat the benefits system yourself to get by. Some people have commented on their circumstances on here. I would rather extra cash went to those people than someone scamming the system. If you didn't have people who scammed the benefits systems, you would not need fraud investigators or people employed to continually access benefit claims costing more money on salaries and investigations. |
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| landg |
quite hilarious. and you have the cheek to call me an uber tory, you sir are right wing facist spouting filth like that about people working to save the govt. money. what a horrible man. as for the 2,000,000,000 quid figure it came from the dwp website, the figures were from 2006. people have not become more honest since then. did anyone else see the left wing irony in saying the figures are wrong without actually quoting any themselves. uber-torin and lowlife dung sniffing fruad investigators. some of you folks are just a left wing parody of yourselves. mone the fraudsters and down with the horrible fraud investigators. |
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| Holebender |
"some of you folks"? I haven't seen anyone endorse the view you find so abhorrent so I find it hard to understand how one person expressing an opinion can translate into some people. | ||||||||||||||||||
| Stevie |
You actually managed to make me laugh. |
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| Shagpile |
Actually no. I was waiting for a response from "Landg" first. "Rinty", beat me to it though when he said:
In my very first post on this thread I said:
When I said what exactly?
And what are mine? Whenever there's a scheme you'll find 'schemers', probably the second oldest proffession known to man. The Torys are pandering to the gallery on this, probably to take the feeble minded's eye off their own backs, on the back of allowances slease...... and they aint even in power yet! As I've said, and say again expensively pointless. Do I approve of fraudsters? NO. I have a lot of sympathy for those on benefits trying to augment their megre existence though, but it doesn't make it right. There are more serious and lucrative frauds and fraudsters out there though in greater need of investigation. Prescription fraud by Pharmacists for example. And what has Westminster done about it? They've put the lunatics in charge of the Asylum! £70 reward for finding someone may truely actually ticked the wrong box. The welsh Assembly paved the way in addressing (patient) prescription fraud by making prescriptions free..... Pharmasists will still be coining it in though I'll bet...... generic drugs supplied for the price of 'Branded' ones. These fraudsters have no excuse...... just plain greed.
You read my above and tell me.
Lassie..... I probably pay more in tax than you earn.
It wont happen, Rinty and I are in full agreement on this.... even if there were absolutely ZERO benefit fraud, benefits would not be increased. They'd still spend a fortune investigating the poorest of our society though. You're a hopless romantic..... typical unionist.
What....... no audit? that's Labour right enough, and your polotics. |
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| Shagpile |
Links to my above post:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news...n-prescription-fraud-1137196.html http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3499017.stm |
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| Ultra |
Sorry I didn't want a history lesson. Why bother posting links which are over 10 years out of date? I suppose 1998 is more up to date than talking about the 17th and 18th century which is the usual for nationalists. Here's some more information for you - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7925167.stm Only from March 09 too. |
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| Stevie |
What a fine advert for unionism you put forth. Is it that you're trying to show us it's actually the government who are the scamming fraudsters? Anyway, the Brits are going to phase out prescription charges for cancer patients from April 1. woopeedoo... I find it hard to believe that cancer patients actually pay prescription charges. Still, one has to finance moat cleaning projects and £170 Billion of debt somehow. |
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| Ultra |
Even more disgruntled English to complain about subsidizing Scotland. I would have thought you would have been pleased about that? |
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| Shagpile |
Don't judge a book by it's cover. Is the info', my assertion "out of date"? You have a link? I notice you have not responded to a single point in my reply to yours. Labour don't like it when you stick it "right up 'em". True to form...... obviously. |
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| Ultra |
What point would that be? The one were you go round in circles for a few more posts and then post some links from over 10 years ago to deflect attention away on to another topic? Or would you like to tell us why you think links from 10 years ago would have any relevence to this topic? Where does it say I vote Labour also? Evidence please? Could it be that immature un-intelligent wee boys like you aren't really worth debating topics with. Esp. when you run out of ideas and out pops the good old 'he's a Labour supporter' fall back. Deary me. 
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| Shagpile |
The question is........ do you believe it to be true? Personally I believe you do. I was right about your gender, right about your location and also right about your polotics. None of the above I have problems with, but honesty in debate; or even in discussion, helps if we are serious about what we discuss. |
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| Ultra |
I think you will find you are wrong on all counts. Why don't you prove my gender, location, and politics? Evidence please? Hence, the reason why it is a pointless discussion and a deflection away from the main topic. |
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| Shagpile |
More avoidance...... not just to me, but to the many intelligent and objective posters on this forum. Do you think we're all stupid? |
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| Ultra |
So you don't have any evidence? Let's go round again! Are you? Oh are we back on to the 'too stupid' argument now?
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| Shagpile |
Your gender.... you've never denied it. Your knowledge about Scottish political issues......... Well dodgy! All your attacks on the SNP come straight out of a Labourite script. PLEASE FEEL FREE TO RETURN TO THE SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD, I WONT OBJECT. |
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| Ultra |
Let's go round again...... Not everyone in Scotland cares too much about politics to become a nationalist fundamentalist on the subject. But where is your evidence on any of it? You don't have any. |
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| landg |
.
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| landg |
i have to say this thread is not much fun.
delusions about benefit fraud, downright nasty comments about those trying to stop it. i think some are arguing for the sake of it. benefit fraud has cost us billions, no point pretending it does not yet it's the fraud investigators who get it in t he neck.WEIRD.like REALLY f***ing weird. |
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| Shagpile |
Did that.
When did you make that point?
Immagine what you will..... I could not be happier in my life.
Not normally sexist, you've got me there..... maybe you have to respond like a person to receive respect...... otherwise that makes you the sexist.
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| azzuri |
Thread Locked. Descended into pointless bickering. Please continue via Private Message if need be. | ||||||||||||||||||
