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| FALSYDE |
UNITY OF THINKING AND STRATEGYIn case anybody hasn't seen today's [Tuesday] Scotsman try to access it on line, page 27, OPINION by Duncan Hamilton.Hamilton was a SNP MSP but has now gone back to the legal profession and doing very well by all accounts, however he has this regular slot in the Scotsman and often writes a lot of sense. Today he has excelled himself. In effect DM is making the case that the SNP cannot assume to itself the sole rights to represent all nationalists, something the SEP has tried to flag up repeatedly and is the very essence of why we got together to set up the SEP. DM'S thesis is that the SNP on it's own will not deliver independence because there are roughly half of those minded to "the project" and who will not vote for their left of centre position, many of whom we know were formerly members/supporters as they have hooked up with us. He goes on to point out that in effect the moment the SNP try to monopolise the route to independence then this puts people off. We would say it has already done so therefor lets hope those who need to read his piece today will and 'tak tent' and perhaps we will, all working together be better able to deliver on the day, if not 2007 then next time around but our researches sugest we ALL have a duty to [a] get voters to the ballot boxes, and [b] get the second vote used strategically for nationalist parties. A point was raised a few days ago by someone, and the individual and I have sorted ourselves out, so no issues there just honest disagreement, his point was why was the SEP not yet formally registered with the Electoral Commission? A valid question and we have very valid reasons which are in part to do with the rules and regs. We have been assured we can have the official position dealt with by them in around 28 working days. If you will all trust, [a dodgy request at the best of times,] but we do have a strategy which is working, it has been thought through very carefully and I would ask you to understand we have to keep those issues to ourselves for the next few months. Those who know the rules and regs will probably have worked it out for themselves. We have no intention of attacking the SNP, Greens or SSP other than to challenge some of their policy programmes where we have a genuine feeling or belief they are wrong. Wind farms are one such. We want to avoid confrontation at all costs, it is just going to play into Unionist hands divide and rule. It is as we see things imperative we all get along on a common united front however we are not too sure whether the SNP are minded to reciprocate but events may reassure them. Sorry to take up so much of your space and time. |
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| SLG |
I think most folk now realise that it will take more than the SNP and that we need parties across the political spectrum to represent those who favour independence. I wish the SEP all the best. I don't think anyone can blame the SNP for trying to protect their turf though. The SNP are not a movement, they are a party and as such can act in the interests of the party rather than the single issue of independence. That said, I don't expect pro-independence parties to attack each other, but while there is some overlap, I expect good natured competition for the common voters. Worth bearing in mind that while other newer parties are building up a vote, the SNP are only likely to lose out, so for that reason can also be expected to be a wee bit defensive.
Iain, I certainly appreciate your contribution to the forum here. There is no space limit, so post as much as you like. If folk aren't interested, then they don't need to read. |
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| FALSYDE |
Thanks SLG. We appreciate the risks of splitting the vote very much. Despite my personal hankering after Moray, - you can tak a Brodie oot o' Moray but you cannae tak Moray oot a Brodie - as the last representative for Moray in the old parliament was one of ours and he didn't touch a penny of the slush fund as the letter exchanges with Fletcher of Saltoun tell us, I have decided to leave it alone and the others agree. Our stratgey is to stick strictly to the 8 Regional Lists and only take a punt at a constituency where there is no sitting SNP member. In any event as this is the first time around the bushes we are most unlikely to have the required funds to do much other than the Regional List route, if we can prodcue candidates for six then we will have done well, if we get anyone in we will have put a few noses out of joint but sod them. I will be on the list candidate for SEP in Highland and Islands, some other names will be along shortly.
This strategy is the only one we can see which will not adversely impact on the SNP while at the same time engaging those voters who will not in any event vote for them as discussed elsewhere tonight and as was pointed out ably by Duncan Hamilton in today's Hootsmon. |
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| Mctosh45 |
Falsyde,
Forgive my ignorance who are the S.E.P. I agree all the pro independence parties have got to show a united front. After all the S.N.P. IS TO MY MIND IS STILL A ONE ISSUE PARTY! INDEPENDENCE! It was only because the Scottish voteing public demanded other policy views that the party had to start producing a manifesto for government. It is still debatable wether the S.N.P. would exist after an independent Scotland is realised? |
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| Avatar |
Sounds like a good plan to me! - I can tell you one thing I look forward to a day when I can vote for a political party which doesnt have Scottish tagged on the front - I mean its not like you have the English/french/irish Labour,liberal conservative,green party it always seems to be scottish or welsh parties that have to chuck these national tags on the front to make them valid. | ||||
| Rinty |
yI have said it a hundred times on this forum so I wont repeat myself in detail.ALL evidence suggests that the more pro-independence parties that exist, the more fragmented the pro-independence vote becomes, then the higher and stronger the movement is. The SNP have been in the past a "movement" and the standard bearer for independence. That is no longer the case and they will have to reassess what their role is. IF and IC can take up the baton for the wider movement. IMHO independence will only finally be achieved democractically when the SNP either changes itself or ceases to exist. At the moment they are still trying to be all things to all pro-independence voters and that doesnt work. We now have Solidarity, SSP and SGP in parliament. I would like to see the SNP emerging as the strongest centre-left party as something like the Scottish Social Democracts and the pro-business wing of the SNP joining with the SEP. I feel that this would be the final push needed to provide voting options for all of us. |
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| Mctosh45 |
Rinty,
Exactly you said "At the moment they are still trying to be all things to all pro-independence voters and that doesnt work". They being the S.N.P. But what the independence movement as a whole must do is convince the the non independence voters that all this party policy thing is just an aside  and that they focus on what we all want..... INDEPENDENCE! AND VOTE FOR IT.
The arguement now isn't what kind of independence I or you would like to see, that can be left for a later day. The arguement is to get MORE people to vote for independence. Regards Mctosh45. 
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| Aventinian |
Well, I think we overuse the S-word far too much. It's attached to everything that the Scottish Executive produces etc and is repeated ad naseaum. Personally I think of it as a rather immature approach to nationality and identity. |
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| Avatar |
"Well, I think we overuse the S-word far too much. It's attached to everything that the Scottish Executive produces etc and is repeated ad naseaum.
Personally I think of it as a rather immature approach to nationality and identity." I agree its far too overused - I dont think you could actually go about your day normally without seeing something that has the word Scottish attatched to it needlessly. |
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| SLG |
But that's because as part of the UK everything is replicated. For most organisations in Scotland, there is one in England that doesn't have a name preceded by England. Scottish needs to be there because, as most of our media come from England, if it wasn't, folk would assume that we are hearing about the English branch. Just one of the things that independence and a clearly independent media would help solve.
The Scottish branches of London based political parties is a wee bit different as the priority there is to con a section of the electorate. |
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| Rinty |
y
Exactly my point mate. How do we get people to vote FOR independence. In my mind the way to do that is to provide more options of pro-independence parties. And all the evidence, especially the Scottish parliament votes, backs that up. A tory who thinks that independence is an attractive option will not vote SNP but might vote for a strong pro-business pro-independence party. Likewise most socialists will not vote SNP but might vote for a strong pro-independence left wing party. Also people who dont necessarily support independence might vote for a pro-independence party based on the rest of their programme but would not vote for the SNP. The "lets vote for independence first and then worry what kind of independence" argument didnt work under the banner of one party. That campaign has been passed on to wider movements and that has left the SNP in limbo to an extent. The SSP were a good example of this in practice, socialists who were not particularly in favour of independence still joined them and voted for them based on the rest of their manifesto. Althought the signs for the SNP are good at the moment we must remember that their vote has fallen in every major election for decades. In 2003 their vote and number of seats fell yet again but the pro-independence vote and the number of seats held by pro-independence MSPs went up. |
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| Aventinian |
I don't think that's the sole reason. We come up with levels of bullshit that England wouldn't ever consider replicating. 'Smarter Scotland', 'Safer Scotland' - it's all quite disturbing. Incidently, how are you going to bring about a Scots Nationalist press? While you have democratic control of the state, the same does not apply to the newspapers. |
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| SLG |
It's not the sole reason although it is an important feature. I would say the main reason is this inferiority of being a stateless nation.
I won't bring anything about. It will be a natural consequence of independence. The newspapers will have to adapt to the changing environment, especially those 'Scottish' editions of English newspapers will have to take much more care. As far as I can make out, the English papers that have Irish editions make a lot more effort to take stories from an Irish perspective and keep the English/UK matters to those that are relevant and to make clear that they are 'foreign' stories. |
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| wisnaeme |
Perhaps, but North Briton seems to be rather lacking in some some other S-words of singular importance. Like for instance, S-word Armed Forces, S-word Foreign Office, S-word Embassies and no doubt a few more S-words could readily spring to mind by many of the readers of these, erm facetious and perhaps traitorous thoughts.
So its all rather immature? indeed, has that not always been the unionist misunderstanding of the S-word. Not quite grown up enough to make our own decisions in the adult's world are we. Mature adults particularily unionist ones know better. Bribe us with sweeties like a pretendy parly to make us feel grown up and important. Threaten us with the fear of chastisment if we stray from the straight and very narrow path of adult guidance. Give us pretensions of freedom under parental supervision. I for one require the milk of true freedom and S-word independence and I certainly will not have that nutrition while suckling a unionist tit. . |
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| FALSYDE |
Mctosh45 you ask the question, who / what is the SEP, if you have the time/inclination go to www.scottishenterpriseparty.org. Hopefully some answers are there.
Avatar is quite right to be irritated by the prefix Scottish........ in relation to political parties but how esle can the issues be distinguished. Scotland is not a normal country politically and we have two sets of parties, often with similar outlooks but distinguished by being either Unionist or Nationalist. Personally I am fed up being a nationalist, I am Scots but in the lexicon of the debates for so long it is a fixed term in the minds of most people. Come the day it will be rather good to just have the Greens, Social Democrats=?SNP, Socialists, Enterprise or whatever. I am bu..rd if i know how to define the LibDems post independence, at least not in a way on a family show like this. Rinty your final para starting ....." Although the signs......" is so very bang on and I hope some other folks would turn over in their mind the implcations and related strategy to bring it off. We have, I only hope we are right. |
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| Mctosh45 |
Falsyde,
Cheers I'll check it out. |
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| FALSYDE |
Aventian I genuinly don't mean to be rude but it is quite clear that you are a highly intelligent person but it is also patently obvious that various other posters here and got your measure and have cogently demonstrated a whole range of falacies attendant on your arguments in support of the Union.
I am mystified as to why you persist. It is not as if you will have any possible chance of turning the others off their commitment and belief. I am tempted to think by continueing to debate you are actually seeking an escape route to alllow you to change tack and support the resumption of our country's sovereignty because I don't know what other purpose it serves to keep on at this. I think you need to consider that, economics and other things aside, you haven't yet picked up on the simple truth that when discussing the options you promote versus those the others, myself included do, that you are dealing with an emotional and instinctive self belief and nationality belief which is utterly viscaral. It is on the same plain as people who see the unswerving absolute in a religious faith and in socialism. Those two last defy logic and rational but they are as a full on commitment to those who are attached as they could ever be. In general terms, if I am wrong I have noo doubt I'll get yelled at by others but you seem to be dealing in academic abstracts, we are in emotions. For myself, I would rather live a poor[er] man in my own independent country than live in an artifical construct such as the Union where I, and mine, are expected to be comfortable with crumbs from, effectively our own table. It is a matter of pride, dignity and honour. I don't know anyone here on these postings but read with intense interest what is said here by them, you included, and yes we can get very heated and ratty with each other on occassion but the bottom line for me is that as a Scot who has reached 60 I am conscious of TIME and I do not want to go to my grave before my - our - country is once more back on the same footings as others some of whom are real Johnny come latelies. A case is point would be Belgium, WHAT the hell IS Belgium, what's it for, its a cobbled together cosntruct to get the Hapsburgs ut of a hole about ? 200 years ago, not sure exactly. Yet this same overpopulated artificial country has institutions in it which govern what we do, how we do it and when. Look at Finland, in desperate poverty post 1945, refused to accept any money under the Marshall plan as they had to surrender the soul land - Karelia to the Russians, desperate to make them accept Finnish neutrality and they pulled themselves up by the proverbial boot straps, now the 5 million [there's a figure to conjure with] people have the highest levels of literacy in the children on the 3 R's of any in Europe, when they export a container of goods it often contains a million plus £'s worth - we well if we can find anything other than whisky to export are lucky if the value exceeds a £100th. We have some lessons to learn there, Scotland's education is crap but not always so, school kids do no any longer play competitive sports because the PC levelers want them all to get a gold star even if they don't try, in soem cases don't even turn up at school. Does anybody ever ask themselves the question, why is it that the Labour party = Socialists who have effective run the west central part of Scotland as an unchalleneged fief for near on a century failed to lift the people out of poverty? I entertain the scurrilous, and you already think I am a cynical b........ger, idea that the reason might be due to the need to keep them poor and retain a a resevoure of pliant voters who keep the smart manipulative mafia in power while they feather their nests. This country is in deep s**t socially, educationally and economically and unless we get out from under the Union where we will have to stand on our own feet and no longer have the English to blame for every damned thing there is no future for anybody with any enterprise or aspiration for themselves, their family and their country. Until we have gone through the vale of tears that's coming, and it is coming, we will never get out of the s**t. We haven't yet hit bottom but we will, most certainly if the Labour LibDem coalition gets another lease of life next May. I do not know anybody in Scotland who hasn't got realtives living in Aus, NZ, Canada or the USA. I also don't know anyone whop has relatives there who have not succeeded. Why is that? I think it has to do with what we have allowed ouselves to become, it's corrosive and insidious and it has to stop soon. For Scotland to stay in the Union any longer will both perpetuate the situation and almost certainly make it worse. Now Aventian it's over to you. YOU tell us how this undeniable situation which exists can be dealt with because this Pictish heathen can't see any other way than for Scotland to start over again, on our own. |
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| Aventinian |
Nobody goes around calling everything Britain has the B-word this or that. Other nations don't do it either. It is peculiar. And don't give me the not running ourselves argument. You do, just as you would in an independent Scotland, by electing members to the country's legislature. |
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| billalba |
Aventinian....I notice you are very anti Scottish in your postings..However we do have to distinguish everything otherwise people would think the media were talking about england...
No other country does it??? Quote An initiative which aims to make the UK the most progressive economy in the world was today (3 May) launched at the QEII Conference Centre in London. Called Work Wise UK Unquote I think you will find that every country does it, but most probably dont to to the extent used by the media....but you are living on another planet if you think that Scotland doesnt have the need to distinguish itself when for example the BBC talk about "The law has changed" but seldom do they say the law is for England/wales - confusing or not... |
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| George |
Excellent posting FALSYDE, the paragraph above is something I have long believed. |
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| SLG |
Rubbish, we run ourselves... to an extent. And much of that is just in the last few years. I blame the media for much of it. Take for exemple the BBC news at 6pm, in it we hear a story about the RSPCA. Although this charity is only active in England and Wales, it is assumed that it is a UK wide body. What happens at 6.30 in Reporting Scotland we have a story about the Scottish RSPCA? If it's not got Scottish in front of it, then folk are confused. This does not happen in most countries where the English and Welsh organisation would be prefixed as such in their news (if it was reported at all!) and the local national association would just be referred to as the (R)SPCA. It's a fact of life that we are a nation within a nation. It needs sorted out. |
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| FALSYDE |
Aventian I appreciate that you may be very busy but we are still waiting for your response to my earlier posting.
This should be interesting |
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| Aventinian |
Not to worry, Falsyde. You put a good bit of effort into your post and you can expect me to reply in the same way.
I've got quite a lot of stuff to get through in the next few days as I mentioned on another thread, but you raised some interesting points that I will definitely be getting back to. |
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| FALSYDE |
Thank you Aventian | ||||
| Theresa |
George and Falsyde,
I disagree with you somewhat.
While it is quite true that nationalism, religion, and socialism are capable of holding people's loyalties to an astonishing extent, it is not necessarily true that these existential topics exclude reasoned conversation. There is something ontological in nationalism that demands a kind of "faith" - and given the current mistaken view that any faith is irrelevant (and probably extremist), it's not surprising that nationalism, religion, etc. are summarily dismissed as invalid. What I would contend is that beliefs of any kind need clear articulation. While expressing strong beliefs of any stripe may not receive widespread approval, it's important to encourage dialogue. How else will we understand each other? My last point is that while we can make distinctions between the "visceral" beliefs of nationalism and the economic, social, political, etc. issues, the distinctions are not subject to utter separation. Doing so denudes and fragments the ideas expressed, and also denigrates the person speaking. Freedom requires open dialogue. |
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| FALSYDE |
Thank you for your well articulated and polite repost.
In summary, SOCIALISM has not woled ever, anywhere at any time. Socialism is currently not working on that basis so ergo it falls to be easily argued it is unlikely to do so here in Scotland, or wherever. Yet there are very sincere people who are dedicated to the notion it is THE WAY. These folk could bitingly be argued as being either too lazy to research the subject objectively and unable to avoid the temptation to make the aspirations meet the belief. Alternatively they have been brought up in circumstances of family hardship, past or current, which has encouraged them to the idea that this can only be turned around by socialism driving/seeking the/a solution. Unavoidably however such a falicy remains a falicy however sincerely held or however often repeated. Mantras and rhetoric don't and can't alter reality. Therefor such beliefs fall to be ascribed to the box of "faith", rather than "truth". NATIONALISM, speaking solely for myslef, I am able to account factually for at least 1600 years of my family's existence within Scotland. I am able factually to be able to demonstrate scientifically that my genome and ancestry is the same as c.84% of my fellow country men/women as a Celt. Culturally I have never known any other influence on consequence other than that the vast majority of Scots to some degree or other have known and experienced. Therefor I am a Scot in the sense of the generally acknowledged and widely understood description however I am aware that more correctly my 'natinalisty within the great wdie Celtic culture is more particularly what is often known or thought of as Pictish. To bob up and donw claiming to be a Pict is wasted energy in the wider sense and like most people I am comfortable and happy to be regarded and when abroad respected for being a Scot. Furthermore I have utterly no feelings of empathy for the other European nationalities especially one over the other except perhaps those of the Irish and Welsh, especialy the latter who are enarer kin to the Picts than we are/were to the Scot-Irish. I most particularly feel neither animosity nor affection for those who are loosley labelled English. With the passing of time they have less and less for us to share culturally other than the universal language which we Scots did as much to spread around the globe. The abject lack of homogenity with the geographical space of ENgland today, post war, is if anything re-enforcing feelngs of alienation, for me at least. Recent events to veil or not to veil are a case in point. I wish them no ill will not any special favours, my ambition starts with my immediate family and stops with my country. I don't think anyone can doubt to whcih I am referring! RELIGEON. I frankly couldn't care less what faith people follow as long as they remember it for what it is - faith just that now more nor less. All of the monothesic releigeons were the means by which elites could control, influence and manipulate. Mankind is a manipulative creature. But please do not anyone insult my intelligence by trying to run past em the notion that my existence here is due to soem ethereal being in abstract or other terms. You're dead - your'e dead and as a god Scot it would be gie hard to get money off me to secure absolution for some misdemeanor. I am entirely relaxed about anybody having faith in anything they want to as long as its harmless and not used to dominate or exterminate others with other views. The Muslims have selective amnesia about the expelling of the Jews from their homeland and choosing to oppose their existence. Personally I have every sympathy for the Isreal's and I would add that their treatment of their Arab neughbours is utterly disgraceful as thye too have short memories of their holocaust so why visit it upon others. That issue is a huge and nightmarish one and only the bravest of fools venture there, being a fool I should have avoided it but then avoiding hard issues doesn't make them go away either. Ce la vie. I personally would rank, in terms of rational logic most religeons on the same level as astrology or flat earth, etc. if it works for you, whoever 'you' are, wherever 'you' are fine, jsut don't kill or oppress others for some daft unsustainable notion[s]. life is too short and when yir deid yir deid, nae 50 virgins, nae nothin. Just make a good job of the one and only run around the bushes. If people need a crutch such as religen to get them through the day and night fine by me. My crutch is my pride in my nationality and country even if we have a bunch of numpties running it. Happy days. |
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| Avatar |
"I am able to account factually for at least 1600 years of my family's existence within Scotland"
sorry if I sound cynical, but how exactly did you manage to trace your ancestry back to 400AD? There was a new study released not long ago in which it turns the majority of Scots are actually descended from the picts and very few from the Scotti settlers - how they figured that out I dont know. I also read something about Alba actually being Gaelic for "pictland" or whatever the actual name of the place was and not Scotland which was a misinterpretation in English. |
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