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jamesieboy
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Viva Palestina convoy pelted in Egyptian townBBC News, 9th March.
'Some Viva Palestina convoy vehicles were pelted with stones and defaced in the town of El Arish, which lies 40km from Rafah.
Vehicles had been daubed with anti-Hamas slogans, said British broadcaster, Yvonne Ridley'.
Just goes to show that not all Arabs are impressed with what they see as Galloway's support for the terrorists of Hamas. Pity it was the humanitarian convoy that suffered.
Note: Hamas are allies with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt who have, for many years, terrorised many parts of the Upper Nile region of the country.
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jamesieboy
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Here to Help.
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Holebender
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Whom do you suppose you are helping, and how?
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jamesieboy
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I'm helping broaden the myopic, biased, one-sided, anti-Israeli idiots on this board see both sides of the argument in the middle east.
There are TWO extremes here, and one's as bad as the other. It's fairly obvious. I'm trying to provide a balanced position
If in doubt, browse through Amnesty International's reports and type in Iran - women, Syria - political opponents, Libya - lack of a free press and freedom of expression, as well as Israel and the Occupied Territories.
BTW, I think we have, by my reckoning, at least 3 self-confessed anarchists on this board. I know thousands of people from all different walks of life and I have never met or known an anarchist, which is probably because there are so few of them.
So the point I'm making is: the most noise on this board is coming from a
tiny minority of loud individuals who are in no way representative of the general population out there.
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agentmancuso
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| jamesieboy wrote: | | So the point I'm making is: the most noise on this board is coming from a tiny minority of loud individuals who are in no way representative of the general population out there. |
Loudspeakers! 
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Dave Coull
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| jamesieboy wrote: | | the most noise on this board is coming from a tiny minority of loud individuals |
Jamesie, I am totally deaf in my left ear, and I'm very hard of hearing in my right ear, but, so far as I'm aware, even for people with much better hearing than me, there is no noise at all on this Our Scotland forum. That is one of the things I like about it. The discussions are all totally silent. Since my eyesight isn't too bad, I can SEE what people are saying. And the wonderful thing is, nobody can interrupt you, nobody can shout you down, you can just sit at a keyboard and type what you want to say. | agentmancuso wrote: | | Loudspeakers! |
Ah, yes, there ARE four hundred million Spanish loudspeakers in the world (according to Jamesieboy). But even if all four hundred million loudspeakers were to speak loudly all at the same time, this forum would still be silent.
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jamesieboy
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Take a tip from me, Dave. Ask yourself this -
What time did I write that comment? Late Fri/Sat night perhaps?
Some folks make little errors every now and then, even those educated at Cambridge, because even they are human and with a bevy in them can be prone to the odd porky.
I am amazed at how important you and the Agent think this is. There must be many reading that think you have sad lives.
But dinnae fret. I obviously don't take myself as seriously as others on this board.
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Rinty
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Jamiesie is just a bigot who thinks that the Idrael/Palestine dispute is solved by looking at autoritarian regimes elsewhere.
He doesnt know the difference between an arab, a palestinian, a muslim and an islamist. OR, he does know the difference but, to him, they are the same thing because he is a bigot.
This forum is an excellent cross section of views, unfortunately we occassionally get this sort of one-dimensional, biased, myopic troll like Jamesie who get threads bogged won in distractions because of their lack of knowledge or deliberate twisting of facts.
He wants us to type in to google to find out about Iran. No thanks mate, I would rather get my information from the informed sources that I normally use. there is no substitute for proper reading and learning.
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jamesieboy
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So Amnesty International isn't a proper source????????? And Human Rights Watch????
Rinty, you have said you get all your info from proper sources like books.
How dated! In my town there are no bookshops left. But you can find reliable sources on Google or Yahoo. It is possible.
You call people 'bigots' when you have lost the argument!!Where is your evidence that I am a bigot?
Your arguments are myopic, one-sided and biased. And you are spineless.
You don't have the guts to criticise, after proper analysis the FACT that most Islamic countries have dreadful human rights records. Maybe a jihadi will come a knockin at your door with some semtex strapped to him.
And maybe that jihadi will be 10-years-old!
Or do you know what the word 'jihadi' means?
As a human rights activist I will continue to criticise ALL countries/regimes that abuse human rights. I will continue to write and campaign for women's rights in Iran and Yemen.
And remember one thing - you have the right to spout any old sh*** you like as you live in a western European democracy.
I'll remind you that you enjoy freedom of speech here. Try shouting your mouth off in countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Syria et al and they will slit your throat. Always remember that.
Eventually, in your simple little world you will realize that israel is not the only abuser of human rights in the world and it still remains a mystery why you, and other less informed persons, should concentrate ALL your energy, ALL your abuse, ALL your venom on the Israel?Palestinian conflict.
Why is that????????
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Alasdair
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| jamesieboy wrote: | | As a human rights activist I will continue to criticise ALL countries/regimes that abuse human rights. I will continue to write and campaign for women's rights in Iran and Yemen. |
You might do well to start at home then.
| james wrote: | | And remember one thing - you have the right to spout any old sh*** you like as you live in a western European democracy. |
You say democracy like it some sort of panacea, it doesn't make us as immune to HR abuses as you might like to think.
| James wrote: | | I'll remind you that you enjoy freedom of speech here. Try shouting your mouth off in countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Syria et al and they will slit your throat. Always remember that. |
Try shouting your mouth off here on the right subjects or make some innocuous threat, or sign up to the 'wrong' political party and you may find yourself thrown in a cell or being monitored on 'anti-terrorist' grounds ... anybody else remember the heckler at the Labout conference a few years ago?
| James wrote: | | Eventually, in your simple little world you will realize that israel is not the only abuser of human rights in the world and it still remains a mystery why you, and other less informed persons, should concentrate ALL your energy, ALL your abuse, ALL your venom on the Israel?Palestinian conflict. |
And many might wonder why it is that in your tiny little and simple world it's only "arabs" who perpetrate human rights abuses. Broaden your outlook.
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Lots of 'free periods' today ... shouldn't you be doing some work, marking perhaps?
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Dave Coull
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Addressing Rinty, | jamesieboy wrote: | | Eventually, in your simple little world you will realize that israel is not the only abuser of human rights in the world |
Jamesie, it's YOU that lives in a simple little world. YOU are the one who sees a simple, black-and-white picture. Although I have never actually met Rinty, I do know him well enough from this forum, as well as from other folk I trust who HAVE met him, to say that Rinty KNOWS that Israel is not the only abuser of human rights in the world. Rinty has ALWAYS known this. It is, therefore, nonsense, logically speaking, to talk of him "realising" something that he already knows, and, indeed, has always known.
Addressing Rinty, | jamesieboy wrote: | | still remains a mystery why you, and other less informed persons, should concentrate ALL your energy, ALL your abuse, ALL your venom on the Israel?Palestinian conflict. |
Let's ignore the bit about "abuse" (because that word implies an expression of opinion), let's ignore the bit about "venom" (because that word also implies an expression of opinion), and let's concentrate on Jamesie's suggestion that Rinty concentrates ALL his energy on the Israel/Palestinian conflict. Although I have never actually met Rinty, I do know enough to realise that is complete nonsense. Quite a lot of Rinty's energy goes into things like caring for his family etc. Yes, he does devote a significant amount of energy to political concerns. He is a member of Solidarity. I know some of his energies go into promoting that political party (a party which I do not support). And some of his energies go into defending Tommy Sheridan and things like that. But even apart from party political matters, so far as campaigning on issues is concerned, I know (from things I have read here, and also from things I have been told by folk I trust) that it is nonsense to suggest Rinty concentrates ALL his political energies into the Israel/Palestine conflict. The truth is, Jamesie, YOU are obsessed with the Israel/Palestinian conflict, and other people here on this forum respond to YOUR obsession.
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jamesieboy
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Interesting revelations, Dave.
So Rinty's in Solidarity. I suspected as much. His language is that of the far left.
Again, I'll make the point, the Rinty's of this world would be tortured and imprisoned if they started gibbering on about all this far left propaganda in the 'usual suspects' states.
And as for your points about this being as bad for human rights, that is total nonsense and you know it.
And I will still detest those Arab, scummy, dictatorial regimes. As well as all other human rights abusers in Africa and elsewhere.
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Dave Coull
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| jamesieboy wrote: | | Interesting revelations, Dave. |
Regarding myself, it is my normal practice to be open AND HONEST (unlike you). Regarding other folk, I haven't "revealed" anything that wasn't already public knowledge.
| jamesieboy wrote: | | as for your points about this being as bad for human rights |
Now you're speaking in riddles. I said NOTHING about "this" (whatever mysterious thing is denoted by "this" in your obscure mental processes) being "as bad for human rights" as something else (that something else also not identified by you).
| jamesieboy wrote: | | I will still detest those Arab, scummy, dictatorial regimes. As well as all other human rights abusers in Africa and elsewhere. |
So what?
What is your point?
Do you imagine you have some sort of monopoly on detesting dictatorial regimes in Arab countries?
Do you imagine you have some sort of monopoly on detesting regimes in Africa and elsewhere which abuse human rights?
Of course you don't!
What you DO, most certainly, have a monopoly on, at least so far as this Our Scotland forum is concerned, is your completely illogical belief that, because there are dictatorial regimes in Arab countries, and regimes in Africa which abuse human rights, THEREFORE Israel's aggressive policies are justified. That doesn't logically follow.
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jamesieboy
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I have never justified israel's tactics.
It is just that I cannot stick the loathsome Arab regimes either.
One is as bad as the other.
They should take a leaf out of western europe's example. Liberal, free, right to free assembly, freee trade union rights, freedom for women, freedom for gays.
Do these things not matter to you?
Do you really want to live in one of these cesspits?
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Rinty
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| Quote: | | "the Rinty's of this world would be tortured and imprisoned if they started gibbering on about all this far left propaganda in the 'usual suspects' states." |
This is true, I know this because my comrades in these countries ARE tortured and imprisoned, as they have been in many countries not just the ones you single out.
Can you give me one example of my myopic and biased view that you claim that I have on Israel/Palestine? My views on the dispute are clear, unlike your jumbled anti-muslim version.
As for concentrating on this issue, that is very far from the truth. I support some of the campaigns, do what I can, but dont play a major active role due to time constraints and commitments.
At the moment it is urgent to work for aid to gaza, the collective punishment dished out by Israel has left the place in ruins. It is also urgent to stop the siege of gaza and the annexing of the west bank with settlers.
That doesnt mean that other things are not urgent too or that i dont take part in other action.
My priorities are usually local and I am not a very active campaigner re palestine, I dont often post about it here or elsewhere.
| Quote: | | "It is just that I cannot stick the loathsome Arab regimes either." |
Me neither, that is why I support comrades organising against them in those countries. But I dont restrict it to Arab regimes. Rights are worth fighting for wherever they are.
It seems that you are incapable of debating. What you should do is actually read what people post, rather than replying to some imaginary post that you wished them to have made, so that it fits your one track argument.
If Dave or me had said that we support authoritarian regimes, or hamas or claimed that Saudi have a fine human rights record, then I could see the point.
The fact is that these regimes are supported by western governments and western fiance. We roll out the red carpet for the saudis in this country. That's not me or George Galloway that are doing that, it is the same people who hypocritically support dictators in one place while using it is an excuse for regime change elsewhere.
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Dave Coull
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Regarding Jamesieboy, | I wrote: | | Do you imagine you have some sort of monopoly on detesting dictatorial regimes in Arab countries? Do you imagine you have some sort of monopoly on detesting regimes in Africa and elsewhere which abuse human rights? Of course you don't! What you DO, most certainly, have a monopoly on, at least so far as this Our Scotland forum is concerned, is your completely illogical belief that, because there are dictatorial regimes in Arab countries, and regimes in Africa which abuse human rights, THEREFORE Israel's aggressive policies are justified. That doesn't logically follow. |
| jamesieboy wrote: | | I have never justified Israel's tactics |
When I argue with somebody, Jamesie, I argue with them about the things that we DISAGREE on. It would be ridiculous to argue about the things we AGREE on. But ridiculous or not, that is what you do! It is a fact that, here on this Our Scotland forum, you have tried to use dictatorial regimes (which we agree on being against), and the abuse of human rights (by regimes that we agree on being against), to try to AVOID the argument on Israel's aggressive policies with regard to Palestine (which is something we DISAGREE on).
| jamesieboy wrote: | | right to free assembly, freee trade union rights, freedom for women, freedom for gays. |
To such extent as we have these, who do you think won us these rights? Do you imagine it was the ruling class of the West who said to each other "I say, chaps, what about free trade union rights, and freedom for women, and freedom for gays, do you think maybe it would be a good idea if we were to introduce these, what what?"
No, it was OURSELVES that won these rights. It was my parents, and my grandparents, and earlier generations, and others like us. It was people like me, and every generation has to struggle against the British ruling class to keep what we have won. In the early 1970s, I personally took part in a demonstration outside Pentonville Prison, in London, which led to five trade unionists, five London dockers, being released from that jail. WE got those imprisoned trade unionists released. When the women's liberation movement became active in the 1970s, I couldn't play too active a part in that for obvious reasons, but what I DID do was to help to run the creche for the young children of women who were attending WLM conferences in London. I helped women's liberation by filling a traditionally female role, looking after young chidren, while their mothers organised politically. So far as gay rights are concerned, I actually took part in the very first ever gay rights demonstration in London! I was VERY embarrassed about doing so. But a friend of a friend of mine was one of the organisers, and he had persuaded a small group of non-gays to take part. So you had all these folk shouting out "Glad to be Gay!", and you had this small group of demonstrators, including me, muttering "You speak fur yersel, pal". But at least we were THERE, showing solidarity.
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Dave Coull
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| Rinty wrote: | | My priorities are usually local |
Family tends to be quite high up my own list of priorities. I know this is true of yourself also, Rinty. My wife and my kids matter, and so do my grandchildren. But also other family members. My disabled, older, widowed sister lives about ten miles away, so I have a twenty mile round trip to go to help her in various ways about three times a week. | Rinty wrote: | | and I am not a very active campaigner re palestine |
Nor me, to be honest. But my (Jewish) stepson Sam has been to Palestine/Israel three times, for a few weeks each time, as an international solidarity campaigner. I am quite proud of him for doing that, although I do sometimes worry a bit. Some of his fellow non-violent campaigners, Rachel Corrie for instance, have been killed by the Israelis for their efforts. | Rinty wrote: | | As for concentrating on this issue, that is very far from the truth. I support some of the campaigns, do what I can, but dont play a major active role due to time constraints and commitments. |
In my case, there are the same constraints of time and commitments, plus another factor: my own advancing age and increasingly poor health.
To Jamesieboy, Rinty offers this good piece of advice: | Quote: | | What you should do is actually read what people post, rather than replying to some imaginary post that you wished them to have made, so that it fits your one track argument. |
It's not just that Jamesie is replying to imaginary posts that he wishes folk had made, it's also that he replies to imaginary people . Jamesie had an image in his head of critics of Israel as either "islamist-supporting jihadis" or "short-sighted-fellow-travellers-with-islamist-supporting-jihadis". I'm sure he didn't expect to be arguing with a retired bricklayer, he didn't expect to be arguing with an old-age-pensioner with a part-Jewish family, so he ignores reality and continues to argue with the (entirely fictional, on this Our Scotland forum at least) "islamist supporters" of his own imagination. .
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Dave Coull
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Jamesie and myself are in agreement that dictatorship is a bad thing. Where we appear to DISagree is that he thinks freedom is something that can be "given", whereas I think we enjoy some relative freedoms because we TOOK them. | jamesieboy wrote: | | right to free assembly, freee trade union rights, freedom for women, freedom for gays. |
I have already responded to Jamesie about free trade union rights, and freedom for women, and freedom for gays, but I have realised that, in responding to Jamesie, I missed out one of the things he includes in his list of glorious British freedoms, "right to free assembly". This one is, of course, also closely linked to "freedom of speech". So here's one personal experience (I could, of course, if necessary, give several others....) which might be relevant.
In 1964, Stuart Christie, from Blantyre, the Blantyre in Lanarkshire not the one in Malawi, got arrested in Spain for plotting to assassinate the Spanish dictator General Franco. I was in Dundee at the time, and, when I heard this news, I took part in organising events in Dundee at which we proclaimed "Stuart Christie Is Innocent!" (As it later turned out, that perhaps wasn't strictly true, but, statement of historical fact, that is what we proclaimed at the time).
On two separate occasions, on a Saturday afternoon, we had rallies in the City square in Dundee on this issue. We didn't ask anybody's permission to hold these rallies, we just turned up, got up on a soapbox (well actually if I remember correctly it was a sturdy wooden stool), and started speaking about the terrible dictatorship which had imprisoned this innocent seventeen year old Scottish laddie.
On both of these occasions, the Dundee polis showed up of course, but, by the time they did, we had managed to attract a sizeable crowd. So all they did was to stand around and take notes.
However, we then tried to do a similar impromptu meeting in the City Square on a weekday evening. BIG mistake. We didn't get a crowd, the Dundee polis showed up quickly, and all of a sudden it DID matter, a lot, that we had not gone through the proper channels, and that we didn't have official permission to assemble, and that we didn't have official permission to speak.
The lesson from this is that our right to assemble can depend on factors such as the extent to which we are successful at doing so, as well as on the extent to which the authorities want to prevent us from doing so.
And, of course, our rights to assemble, and our rights to speak out publicly, were won for us by folk who were continually testing the limits to which they could push those in authority over us.
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jamesieboy
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Rinty and Dave,
I am glad to be informed of your activites for these noble causes.
Again, I will put my position:
For an independent Palestine which is democratic and respects the human rights of ALL its people, including gays and women (and Christians and Jews)
I detest Hamas because they would very probably, if in power, repress these groups and we would end up with just another Arab dictatorship.
The reason I have written postings, some I admit a bit provocative, is that there has seemed to have been, amongst many of the protests and protesters against Israel and its loathsome actions, a condoning of islamists and islamism and the Arab regimes, NOT the people in most of the stuff I've read.
In other words, and I think we can agree, two wrongs don't make a right.
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Lord Pitsligo
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| jamesieboy wrote: |
For an independent Palestine which is democratic and respects the human rights of ALL its people, including gays and women (and Christians and Jews) |
So you'd want them to be significantly more tolerant and inclusive than Isreal?
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Dave Coull
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| jamesieboy wrote: | | Again, I will put my position. |
There's no "again" about it. You have never put forward a clear position. All you have done is to air some unthinking prejudices, without proposing anything constructive to do about the problems. | jamesieboy wrote: | | For an independent Palestine |
That is actually just a way of AVOIDING the problem. What is the "Palestine" that you are in favour of independence for? Is it to be limited to Gaza and just part of the West Bank? Before Adolf Hitler's attempt at a "final solution" to Europe's "Jewish Problem", ALL of the territory currently ruled by the Zionist government of Israel was "Palestine". There are millions of Palestinians who are either themselves refugees who were driven from their homes in what is now "Israel" by the Zionists, or who are the children or grandchildren of Palestinian refugees who were driven from their homes in what is now "Israel". Any Middle East "solution" which does not allow all of them to return home will be no solution at all. They all have a right of return. Zionists who claim such a "right of return" for American Jews whose ancestors hadn't been anywhere near "Israel" for thousands of years have no grounds for refusing those who were born there, or whose parents or grandparents were. Yes, that would fundamentally change the nature of the state of Israel. And a good thing too! Having a state which is based on expelling those of the "wrong" religion or ethnicity is a bad thing. The only way a "two states" solution can work is if there is complete freedom of movement between the two states. And freedom of movement brings MORE security, not less. If everybody has freedom of movement, you remove the terrorists' number one recruiting point. | jamesieboy wrote: | | For an independent Palestine which is democratic |
You have previously expressed a preference for the Palestinian authorities in the West Bank rather than the Hamas-dominated authority in Gaza. By doing so, you revealed your own opposition to democracy. The plain fact is, in the only thing that the Palestinians have ever had remotely like a free election, a clear majority of them voted for Hamas, not just in Gaza, but in the West Bank too. Hamas took control of the West Bank as the democratically-elected Palestinian government. But the USA, Britain, and Israel refused to accept the democratic decision of the Palestinian people. They did everything possible to boycott, harrass, and undermine the Hamas government, and, after several months of that, in the end, they backed a military coup d'etat against that government, and the imposition of a dictatorship more acceptable to the USA, Britain, and Israel. The present authorities on the West Bank are the result of that military coup. The only place where the military coup against the elected government did NOT succeed was Gaza. No matter how much you (or I, come to that) may dislike Hamas, the fact is, they were democratically elected, and the so-called "moderates" were not. Preaching democracy while backing a military coup d'etat if you don't like the result of the election is both hypocrisy and dictatorship. | jamesieboy wrote: | | and respects the human rights of ALL its people, including gays and women (and Christians and Jews) |
Look, you can't have it both ways, Jamesie. Either you are in favour of democracy, in all circumstances, or you are in favour of human rights, in all circumstances. You can't ALWAYS be in favour of both. Adolf Hitler was democratically elected. He won several elections which would have met international standards of democracy, both then and now. He carried out many policies which were against human rights, but which had the backing of a majority of Germans. My attitude is, I am in favour of democracy EXCEPT when it clashes with human rights, and then I regard human rights as the higher good. You, apparently, haven't even realised you may have to choose. So far as the human rights of Palestinian Christians, Jews, women, gays, etc, are concerned, I say these have to be struggled for by these elements within Palestinian society themselves. Outsiders can show solidarity with their struggle, but first, there has to be something to show solidarity with!!! But what outsiders must NOT do is try to impose "freedom" through invasion by an external military force. | jamesieboy wrote: | | The reason I have written postings, some I admit a bit provocative, is that there has seemed to have been, amongst many of the protests and protesters against Israel and its loathsome actions, a condoning of islamists and islamism and the Arab regimes, NOT the people in most of the stuff I've read |
You saw what you chose to see, or perhaps what Zionist propagandists chose for you to see. Yes, a small minority of protesters are islamists, or condone islamism. But they really are just that, A SMALL MINORITY of those who protest against israel and its loathsome actions. You chose to exaggerate their influence, you acted out of PREJUDICE. And yes, you DID accuse folk here on this forum of being "islamists" etc etc. You are now backtracking, but, if I have to, I can dig out quotes from earlier posts of yours which PROVE this.
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twistedandbent
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to be honest i would throw stones at a convoy of muslims, jews,protestants,catholics,dwarfs or one legged panda's wearing suspenders of that muppet galloway was tagging along.
tag along with him and you deserve to be stoned.
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