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| Blackleaf |
What if Scotland DID become independent?Will Scotland be able to cope as an independence state? "NO!", says the Daily Mail...What if Scotland DID become independent? A historian looks forward 20 years and imagines the future By ANDREW ROBERTS 8th May 2008 Daily Mail The Scottish Labour leader, Wendy Alexander, called this weekend for an early referendum on Scottish independence - even though her party previously opposed the idea. The move is seen as an attempt to wrong-foot Alex Salmond's Scottish National Party, which is committed to a referendum in 2010. But many say her challenge could backfire and that the SNP could benefit from any poll result that suggests a move towards independence. So what would an independent Scotland be like? Here, historian ANDREW ROBERTS looks forward to the year 2025 and imagines ... The new Prime Minister frowned as he stared across the Cabinet table at the embarrassed looking Scottish High Commissioner. Had he heard correctly? Was President Salmond really asking that Scotland be re-admitted into the UK, after only 15 years as an independent state? 
Cry freedom: But would independence work? On-the-brink Brown faces fresh accusations of dithering - this time over a referendum on Scottish independence They had been tumultuous years, of course, and 'the Tartan Revolt' had endured its ups and downs - mostly downs. But was the Scottish Nationalist Party genuinely proposing to abolish itself, admitting the whole experiment had been a disastrous failure? "I shall have to confer with the Cabinet, of course," the Prime Minister said. Barely able to growl "Thank you, Mr Osborne", with a twist of his kilt the High Commissioner left. The Rt Hon George Osborne MP, who had just returned from an audience at Buckingham Palace with King Charles III, sat back in his armchair in the middle of the Cabinet room and ruminated on the Scots' predicament. Where had it all gone wrong? Of course, the 11-year-long international court case over who owned North Sea oil had been a serious blow to Scottish hopes when the 30 per cent share they were finally awarded turned out to have almost run dry anyhow. The way that the English coastline jutted out into the North Sea and the Irish Sea just south of the border had persuaded the judges that was a generous settlement under international maritime law, but it seriously undermined Scottish Prime Minister Wendy Alexander's first term in office at Holyrood. Then there was the termination of the annual Westminster subsidies to Scotland under the Barnett Formula, which in 2007 had amounted to £11.3 billion. This ended overnight when the Scots voted - by 54 per cent to 46 per cent - for independence back in January 2010. The ending of this £2,200-per-person subsidy meant the Holyrood Parliament in Edinburgh had to make severe cuts in public services, which rapidly became deeply unpopular. 
Born blue: Mel Gibson as William Wallace in Braveheart The removal of every Scottish MP in Westminster had also come as a body blow to New Labour, which was trying desperately to hang on until the last minute before calling a General Election in the early summer of 2010. Gordon Brown was forced to give up the premiership, since his own seat of Kirkcaldy disappeared under the new constitution. Many in his party - possibly including himself - thought his resignation something of a blessing. Earl Brown of Cowdenbeath, as he subsequently became, turned out to be one of the shortest-serving premiers of modern times. David Miliband did his best to lead a minority government without the 39 Scottish MPs at Westminster, but the task proved beyond him. Not wishing to spend his life in perpetual opposition, he took up a post in the City. Any hopes that the more Anglophobic Scots might have had that their defection would harm the UK were dashed when it kept its name - in reference to the English, Welsh and Northern Ireland components - as well as its seats in the UN Security Council, Nato, EU, OECD and other international bodies. Scotland on its own, however, swiftly found itself with a voice somewhere between that of Serbia and Cyprus in weight, representing only 4.6 million people (after half-a-million English and business people emigrated to avoid the anti-sassenach legislation and high corporation taxes). The decision of the Royal Bank of Scotland in 2018 to relocate its head office for tax purposes to the Square Mile was a stark indication of how bad things had got. After the failure of the Tartan Pound, and the Scots refusal to peg their currency to sterling, their decision to join the euro had also been damaging - not least because it meant they no longer had any significant input into decisions over interests rates and liquidity. On the Queen's death, aged 95, in 2021, the Scots compounded their error by joining Australia in becoming a republic. It was not simply King Charles III's sale to Sir Billy Connolly of Balmoral and Birkhall, but also the sense that - as with Ireland in 1949 - the act to become a republic had been primarily anti-British in intent. The phrases that the British Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson had directed towards 'North Britain' had only inflamed opinion further. In retrospect, the decision to move the naval base from Rosyth to a port south of the border was a natural one for a Westminster government determined to safeguard the interests of national security. So, too, was the abolition of the remaining Scots regiments, despite their ancient and glorious history as part of the British Army. The unemployment that resulted north of the Border may have been soaked up had the Scottish economy been growing, but the SNP-Labour coalition that ran the country under President Salmond and Prime Minister Wendy Alexander made an error in choosing that moment to push through radical land policies. When tenants were given the right to buy their own homes, it was hoped by the Left that the landed estates of the Scottish aristocracy would be dispossessed in a generation or two, and there would be more fairness and opportunity in the glens. What, in fact, happened was that the aristocratic estates did, indeed, disappear, but with them went the enterprises that allowed sports such as shooting, stalking and fishing to flourish. The great sporting estates that had attracted tourist revenue to the Scottish Exchequer in George Square, Edinburgh, were no longer productive. Expertise built up over the decades was lost, and farms were broken up into smaller and smaller units, many of which could no longer operate. Tourists stopped bringing their euros, dollars, yen and Chinese yuan because, paradoxically, independence had robbed the country not only of its ancient rural traditions but of its confidence and grandeur. To visitors, Scotland no longer felt genuinely Scottish. It had turned into just another small, unremarkable European country. It all got progressively worse with the loss of whisky revenues after the declaration of independence from the Orkney and Shetland Islands. By the time Alex Salmond became president, his country was unravelling, and the English border towns such as Berwick-upon-Tweed that had voted to join Scotland - in order to take advantage of social benefits in the good old Barnett Formula days (not for any actual love for Scotland) - were soon begging for re-admittance into the UK. The Time magazine cover story - 'Tartan Nightmare' - was a turning point in the Scots' self-esteem, especially when it equated the chances of a successful independent Scotland with those of seeing the Loch Ness Monster. It was with no sense of schadenfreude that Prime Minister Osborne took the decision that was plain to him as soon as the High Commissioner had left. Of course, he would consult with the King, his own predecessor as premier Lord Cameron of Whitney and Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson, but he was pretty certain that they would agree with his conclusion. The answer must be 'No'. The Scots had chosen their destiny, and now they must live with it. dailymail.co.uk |
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| Lord Pitsligo |
A candidate for dumbest newspaper article of the year?
Check the online comments at http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/...cle_id=564669&in_page_id=1770 Not too many people seem impressed by it. |
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| Blackleaf |
Most of the people who weren't impressed by it were probably Scots, or a few English people who wanted to see Scotland go so England would be at least £11 billion a year a better off.
otherwise, an intelligent article which just highlights what could - or WILL - happen to an independent Scotland. Scary stuff for you all. |
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| Blackleaf |
Someone from the Shetland Islands wrote this: I have to agree with this projection: if the Scots decide to go for independence, they'll cut their own throats. If they obtain independence and are left to face the natural consequences alone, as this projection suggests they will be, that would be justice for their stupidity. With a world approaching general meltdown, this is not a time for internecine warfare in the UK to add to the mess. - Philip, Uyeasound, Shetland **************************** And this is funny: I have been under the impression that the Union was a political entity, therefore it was desolved when the Scots voted for their own parliament. Interestingly the jock parliment hasn't used its tax raising powers, why? The sooner the better! Let the English vote on the issue and it will be carried by a massive majority! The billions of subsidies sent north of the wall to keep Nu Labour mps in a job, can then be used to the benefit of the English counties. It's about time the Scots stood on their own feet, the English have been subsidising them since 1685. Then they could sponge off the EEC. It's been muted that the Romans never invaded Scotland because they never thought it had any thing worth stealing. The only mistake they ever made was putting a gate in Hadrian's Wall. - Colin, London/England |
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| Lord Pitsligo |
Do you really believe everything Gordon Brown tells you?
No, its a piece of bullying - its like an abusive spouse telling their partner they'd be nothing without them.
Yes, I was worried I'd die laughing. |
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| agentmancuso |
I like this bit:
Highland Park might be a popular whisky (I was partial to a splash myself, in the days before I took the pledge) but I doubt it's consumed in such quantities that it keeps the whole industry floating single-handedly! |
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| Alasdair |
Well, obviously an accurate reflection for the future of Scotland ... except they missed the bit about Salmond fathering Alexander's next batch of offspring 
I hate that bloody 'news'paper 
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| Reluctant Hero |
If Scotland was independent, I can just imagine the headlines in the Daily Mail in 20 years time:
"Can We Have Scotland Back" "We Didn't Mean It" or headlines to that effect. |
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| Aventinian |
The Daily Mail really is getting worse. It'll be on Daily Express levels soon. | ||||||||||||||||
| Tamed by a Scotsman |
I came across that article in the paper and my first thought was "Oh no. But let's at least give it a try, it might at least try discussing the situation."
First line ... "Oh dear. Another journalist / historian who really wants to be a novelist but has no talent for it so they stick to better paid professions." Second line ... "OK this is just stupid. Don't they realise that national pride and self respect are fundamental reasons for wanting to be independent? The people would not stop rioting if politicians sold them out a second time. And it's not likely to be Alex Salmond. Oh I can't be bothered reading this rubbish. Let's move to the last line." Last line ... "As expected." |
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| azzuri |
...dailymail.co.uk?, never!!! | ||||||||||||||||
| Aventinian |
*Vomit* |
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| Lord Pitsligo |
Nice intelligent response as usual Aventinian, don't you know her comment has an undeniable historical truth about it? |
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| agentmancuso |
Yes. The response by Scotsman is as pathetic as the original article. No matter how much they try to ham up 'civic nationalism' in the end it always comes back down to 'national pride' |
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| chicmac |
It's a pretty weird self-centred cove who would have no national pride. I mean isn't that effectively saying "I don't care what my country is like!"? |
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| Lord Pitsligo |
I guess there's a lot of people who would be much happier if the Scots felt like that. The labour party, for example. |
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| Lewis |
Again, I fail to see that newspaper as being very intellectual. IO think that Scotland can survive both ways and it is merely opinion. Frankly nobody can predict what would happen if we were to become independent, but I'd be happy to be out of the UK. | ||||||||||||||||
| mal |
I like the thought of being a wee country, making and standing by its own efforts, not worrying about pretentious delusions of greatness and grandour, looking after its own and helping where it can others who are less fortunate,having a democracy where the people are soveriegn and referees are unbiased 
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| Alasdair |
The paper's not intellectual. Most aren't. What's important is that people read this sort of drivel and regardless of whether or not they accept it, or even remember it, it will leave an impression on them. It's unfortunate, but there are a large number of people who will believe something that's written down, simply because it is written down, especially where it is a voice of some sort of authority (textbooks, papers, and even rags like the Daily Mail). Most people, and I include myself, rely on only one or two sources for news and current affairs. Life can be too busy to cross reference and read a variety of different opinions and views so we limit ourselves to those we either consider trustworthy or that reinforce our own perceptions and/or beliefs about the world. |
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| doodells |
A daft article IMO, it just shows all the aspiring journalists out there that there is a strong chance of getting your writings published no matter how bad you are. On a more serious level, people actually continue to buy the paper!! | ||||||||||||||||
| Aventinian |
I once had someone tell me the same thing when I told him that I had no pride whatsoever in being white. Perhaps the sort of cove who realises that pride is, for one, a deadly sin, and for another should at least be restricted to one's actual accomplishments rather than taking 'pride' in a completely abstract notion. Why should I be proud of Scotland - or, conversely, why should I be ashamed of where it falls short? I have very little influence in either and, to be frank, Scotland and Scottish people are no better than anyone else.
I only care in the sense that I care equally for every human being on this planet. I do not care more about persons I apparently share some randomly plucked characteristic (whether it be 'Scottishness' or, in my example above, race) over others. Equally, I do not take an interest in places which I have no association with, but are behind a certain line drawn on a map and largely set by warmongers and ethnic cleansers. |
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| William_Cleland |
I seem to remember comments from you about the picture of the two Royal Marines stationed on Rockall that would be consistent with national pride.
http://ourscotland.myfreeforum.org/ftopic4625-0-asc-0.php 
Full of good old British spunk, if you ask me. Of course, you and your ilk wouldn't quite get that. |
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| Aventinian |
What's wrong with that? I accept the existence of generalised national characteristics in some circumstances. I also enjoy a bit of a laugh. | ||||||||||||||||
| Tamed by a Scotsman |
National pride is a good thing for a number of different reasons. First reason is because of our biological make-up, our instincts. We have evolved as pack animals. We work better in small communities that each have a collective identity. And taking pride in your pack, your community and your identity as part of that community leads to greater social cohesion and helps the pack as a whole. Now you may argue that this leads to greater conflict with other communities, whether they be other packs, other football teams or other countries. But that's the nature of life. We only evolved in the first place because we competed against each other. Of course we have moved on from this but we still compete economically and national pride helps a country in this regard. For example, generally speaking the Germans will most often opt for buying German goods such as their own cars whereas the English will often just go for the cheapest price regardless. Secondly, until you move to a different country, you don't fully appreciate just how much your ethics and view of life are shaped by the culture you grew up in. So having pride in your own country means that you respect yourself as a person, and that is definitely a healthy thing to do! The world is too big and too full of people to be concerned about the welfare of everyone in it. But you can look after those that you live with and be proud to know them, to help them where necessary and be proud to contribute. |
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| Aventinian |
[quote="Tamed by a Scotsman"]National pride is a good thing for a number of different reasons. [/quote
A nation is not a community. I will never meet more than a tiny fraction of a percentage of these people. I live in a community: a village - where I recognise the people and interact with them.
I'm afraid I don't buy into collectivism. What leads to the Greater Glory of the Nation is not always good for me - in fact, in most cases it's very bad for my liberty. Moreover, I don't want goods, I want freedoms.
That's a sickening mentality - that you'd consider secondary the needs of others because of some line drawn on a map.
No it doesn't, it means you surrender yourself to foolish sentimentality and collectivism. Which means, in the long run, you're going to end up simply as pawns to the Nation. Anyway, if you believe all this, then when are you going to start being proud of being British? |
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| agentmancuso |
It's refreshing to see a Scottish Nationalist openly admitting that pride in biological make-up is the basis for nationalism.
Some of us have evolved past that stage. |
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| Holebender |
It's a pity your ability to think rationally is so stunted though.
Some nationalists are racists. It does not follow that all nationalists are racists, in the same way that it is impossible to extrapolate from a few individual to proclaim that all LibDems are twits. |
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| agentmancuso |
Even some Scottish nationalists? 
George! There's a heretic on board. |
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| Holebender |
Of course some Scottish nationalists are racists, but far fewer than the numbers of LibDems who are twits.
The largest contingent of racists, however, can assuredly be found among the ranks of the British nationalists. |
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| Alasdair |
Although you have to wonder if British Nationalists are nationalists at all? They never seem particularly 'British' to me anyway ... although to be honest I still haven't quite figured out what it means to be 'British', so who knows?! |
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| Lord Pitsligo |
I'm sure some people would like to think that, but our biological origins are a lot stronger than they realise. |
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| Dave Coull |
Holebender wrote "Some nationalists are racists".
Agentmancuso asks "Even some Scottish nationalists?" My uncle George was a racist Scottish nationalist. Well, when I say my uncle, I mean he was married to my mother's older sister. As well as Scottish Nationalist songs, he was also known, when he had a drink in him (which means this was not a rare occurrence) to sing a couple of rather unpleasant songs about the Jews. During the Second World War, he saw no reason why we should be fighting our brothers the Germans. (He wasn't actually fighting them personally, being in a reserved occupation). I have little doubt he would have co-operated with the German forces if they had ever reached Scotland. As long as they installed a Scottish Nazi government. Holebender wrote "Of course some Scottish nationalists are racists". So far as I am aware, no anti-racist supporter of independence for Scotland has ever denied this. "The largest contingent of racists, however, can assuredly be found among the ranks of the British nationalists." I agree. If we consider some contemporaries of Uncle George, very senior members of the British "Royal Family" are on record as making some extremely racist remarks. No, not just the Duke of Windsor, the dear old Queen Mum, Prince Phillip, and there seems little doubt such attitudes are prevalent amongst the younger generation of royals too. Winston Churchill is on record as making disgusting remarks about Jews, Africans, Asians, and practically everybody else he harboured a prejudice against. Bringing things up to date, for decades now, it has been groups like the National Front and the British National Party that have been active in anti-immigrant campaigns, not the SNP. I think the REASON why there is more racism amongst British nationalists than amongst Scottish nationalists is because of the Empire. Many British nationalists still hanker after the days of Empire, when Brittania ruled the waves, and when "lesser breeds without the law" knew their place. Generally speaking, Scottish nationalists do not suffer from those Empire-Hangover attitudes. So, although there are some racist Scottish nationalists (like my uncle George), there is, generally speaking, less racism amongst Scottish nationalists than there is amongst British nationalists. |
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| William_Cleland |
Some people on here appear to have a guid conceit o themselves right enough as they appear to think that they are something more than an unusually intelligent ape complete with a brain that still functions accordingly. http://www.cracked.com/article_14990_what-monkeysphere.html Although they appear to me to routinely stereotype and demonise a large diverse group by defining them all as "nationalists" so they can all be treated as a single nameless faceless enemy, the idea that their brain functions according to Dunbar's number would no doubt seem preposterous to them. |
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| Aventinian |
Have you figured out what it means to be Scottish, precisely? |
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| Aventinian |
Lucky then that British nationalists are rather sidelined creatures, notwithstanding their new seat on the London Assembly. |
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| Alasdair |
It's certainly very difficult to define in precise terms without ridiculous recourse to racial origins and political boundaries. I've been trying to come up with an answer to the question of, 'what does it mean to me to be Scottish?' for some time and have found it very difficult to articulate. I heard a poem recently (possibly by Mark Thomson ... possibly not) which summed up pretty well what it means to be Scottish, alas I don't have the text and haven't been able to find a reference :frustrationwritlarge: I think the important aspect of the question I pose above, is the 'me' part. I don't think you can lay down guidelines and say this is what makes someone Scottish and if you're not that you're not Scottish ... ... to me it's personal, it's emotional, it's an attachment and a relationship that I feel towards the community in which I live. It's vague and ethereal to the touch, it's imagery and societal touchstones it's IRN BRU and Whisky, it's hills and glens and lochs, it's nessy! it's a warm welcome and an open home. It's pride and ambition, tolerance and acceptance. It's haggis, and tourists that think you can hunt them! It's my children and my parents and their parents. It's my neighbours, be they pleasant or otherwise. It's fried fish, fresh prawns, camping in the rain, being eaten by midges. It's all these things, it's everything and nothing, it's who I am. I suppose the same could be said for feeling British and perhaps i can't define being British because when I look at a map of Britain I see Scotland, England, Wales, and N.Ireland. I see a Government at Westminster pleasing nobody and breeding dissillusionment, anger and division between peoples. I see parties like the BNP gaining sway because Britain doesn't have a strong and valid identity, it's the dirt in the cracks between the nations that make it up. |
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| Holebender |
You clearly have no idea who the British nationalists are. How about a politician who makes speeches using phrases like British jobs for British workers? The truth is every mainstream politician in the UK except the ones who advocate independence for various subdivisions of the UK is a British nationalist. There's not one of them who doesn't put the UK first, or who advocates dissolving the UK. These people are British nationalists, just as mainstream French politicians are French nationalist, and so on. |
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| agentmancuso |
Please tell George - he think's it's a Unionist Plot.
There are some of course. But the vast majority seem reassuringly sensible at close hand.
Very true. |
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| agentmancuso |
That's an absurd suggestion. National politicians who do what they think best for whatever administrative unit they happen to run are not necessarily 'nationalists'. If the councilors for South Lanarkshire put South Lanarkshire first does that make them Lanarkshire nationalists? Of course not; they are just doing their job properly. Nationalism depends on a belief in an essential political unit. |
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| agentmancuso |
If it seems that way to you, it's perhaps because you fail to read my posts very closely. I have never demonised nationalists; many are no doubt genuine and well-meaning in their political convictions. But, yes, I do demonise 'nationalism', because I find the terrible events of the last century hard to ignore. |
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| Holebender |
That is only your definition and does not make it so. If you want to play your silly word games, give us an acceptable (to you) term for someone who advocates the independence of Scotland within its present borders but who has no belief in an essential political unit. For rational people, "nationalist" is an acceptable though possibly imprecise term. |
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| William_Cleland |
The demonisation of the group you term "nationalists" is based on the way you use crude guilt by association tactics to falsely imply that these terrible events are an inevitable outcome of their activities. For every Yugoslavian type scenario there has been a "velvet divorce" Czechoslovakian one. Without the European Union there would be no serious prospect of an independent Scotland. The fuss you make over the supposed dangers of what would simply be a case of swapping one form of political and economic union for another is absurd. |
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| Aventinian |
I, for one, don't believe in this semi-mythical non-nationalist advocate of Scottish independence. |
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| Holebender |
Do you know what? I don't give a stuff for what you believe. This is not a matter of faith, it is a matter of rational discourse. If you cannot reach conclusions through reason and critical thinking stop wasting my time. | ||||||||||||||||
| agentmancuso |
I've never said that these terrible events are an inevitable outcome. I've said that terrible events are such a frequent outcome that advocates of nationalism must demonstrate their willingness to take into account the likelihood that a greater or lesser degree of ugly xenophobia will manifest itself as a direct result of of nationalist fervour. The SNP, as a political party, do this well, as I've regularly stated. But many individual Scottish nationalists either indulge personally in low-level xenophobia, or tolerate it silently in others, or deny its existence all together. On this forum George is an example of the last category, there are a good few examples of the first category, and the vast bulk fall into the second category. Holebender consistently confronts such behaviour, but he is the only nationalist to do so.
No there hasn't. Yugoslavia outnumbers Czechoslovakia by 10 to 1.
I agree. The existence of the EU makes the whole thing much less likely to go off the rails.
I don't make a fuss about the dangers of swapping one form political and economic union for another. I make a fuss about the refusal of many Scottish nationalists to recognise the dangers inherent to all nationalism, including their own. |
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| agentmancuso |
It is a sillier word game to pretend that 'nationalists' don't believe in a 'nation'
I've never met one. Where are these people? |
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| Holebender |
I know you and I have never met, but you have encountered such people. There are several who post here.
More silly word games. Whether or not you've met such a person you could certainly answer the question and provide an acceptable adjective. |
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| Aventinian |
Pram ---> Toys. |
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| Holebender |
Head ^ arse. | ||||||||||||||||
| Aventinian |
I must ask one of your fellow former IF chums what age you actually are. |
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| agentmancuso |
Like who?
If, as you claim, these mythical creatures exists, then presumably they are best placed to supply their own label? |
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| Red Justice |
I am an advocate for Scottish independence by way of an Independent Socialist Scotland which does not make me a nationalist. I am a socialist who believes in independence with a social system that ends a class ridden society in Scotland. |
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| agentmancuso |
Well yes, but you also believe in 'guns' and 'revolutions', and so can be quietly discounted from any serious discussion. I hope Holebender has a better ace than you up his sleeve, or his argument is sunk without trace. |
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| Red Justice |
Only believe in armned revolt if the political conditions make it necessary and only as a last resort. The revolution in Cuba was fought with guns to overthrow the Batista dictatorship. Some revolutions can be won through the political process. Revolution is about change and socialist revolution liberates the working and lower classes from capitalism. Revolutions take many forms. I advocate revolutionary change in Scotland which sets me apart from the reformists advocating constitutional nationalism. |
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| Holebender |
As previously indicated, they exist. I am such a person. I am completely comfortable with the label "nationalist", so where does that leave you? Aventinian, I suspect I am approximately twice your age, and I gave up tolerating fools a long time ago. Life's too short. |
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| Jimbo |
agentmancuso wrote:
Hi Agent, you used to be a Nat', what made you go over to the dark-side? |
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| Lord Pitsligo |
One thing I noticed when I studied geology was how often national borders were defined by geological boundaries. The Scottish/English border is largely defined by a geological boundary left over from the days when they were part of different continents. And that's before we take into account coastal borders - which accounts for the rest of Scotland. Just look at how many borders are set by mountain ranges. And as mountain ranges often indicate a change in geology, and therefore a change in landscape, soil quality and many other environmental factors, maybe it also indicates a change in culture. I would argue that many countries are in fact defined by natural boundaries, which in many cases produce a change in the environment, and so a change in the culture, beyond that boundary. |
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| William_Cleland |
Think you have no real clue of what things are like in the context of ethnic conflicts and are more than a little bit paranoid if you think that is the scenario in Scotland. There were very serious and long standing internal divisions in Yugoslavia that made the advent of liberal democracy a recipe for warfare when enforced unity through dictatorship was removed, in a way that was not the case with Czechoslovakia. The differing outcomes demonstrates that the supposed dangers of nationalism are not inherent and points to other factors being required as well. For example, religious differences tend to be a major source of strife and can be readily used to explain why Montenegro and Serbia could split apart peacefully despite there being a large pro-Serb population in Montenegro while things went terribly wrong in a Bosnian context. The western media was very slanted against the Serbs (probably due to Cold war biases and the notion that they were the Balkan version of the Russians) and never fully reported on the sort of stuff that drove some of them completely mental in the Croatian and Bosnian contexts. Meet Mahir Burekovic, the sort of Bosnian Muslim who was not fighting to defend a secular multicultural republic even if some of the others were:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVRvCJ0L2Gg Beyond all that I think a lot of people who use messageboards tend to let the moderators do their job where posters like Red Justice are concerned and in general prefer not to feed obvious trolls in the hope that by denying them the attention they crave they will take the hint and go away. To extrapolate from that to tacit support for their activities and purported veiwpoints again strongly suggests to me that you are paranoid. |
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| William_Cleland |
Mythical creature? Why are the opinion poll numbers for "independence in the EU?" and "complete independence outside the UK and the EU" so different if it all boils down to essential political units? |
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| Aventinian |
I dispute your justification. Class-ridden societies etc are irrelevant to the question of Scottish independence. Why do you support the latter? |
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| agentmancuso |
I doubt very much that Red Justice is a troll. He represents a long-standing minority viewpoint within Scottish nationalism.
I wasn't referring to Red Justice at that point, but to the Babygael school of thought, represented most recently by Tamed by a Scotsman, snyper10, crazydaisy etc. In the absence of any response to the openly xenophobic comments made by these people, implicit support is a perfectly reasonable extrapolation. |
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| agentmancuso |
Puzzled, frankly. If you believe that the historical configuration of Scotland was purely contingent on circumstance, then why is the desire to re-establish this long-expired accident of history your central political concern? |
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| agentmancuso |
I originally joined following the successful adoption of the core 'Independence in Europe' policy in the late 80's, as it represented for me the triumph of the sensible, gradualist party over the fundamentalists. I almost left during the attempts by the same fundamentalists to prevent SNP involvement in the pro-devolution campaign, but stuck it out when Salmond won the day. At the same time I was impressed by the Liberal Democrats' evident political commitment to the devolution campaign, in contrast to Labour's expediency. To my mind the SNP reacted very badly to devolution in the early days. The pathetic sniping that followed the first Labour-Liberal Coalition was an embarrassment, displaying as it did a complete failure to come to terms with the reality of (semi-)PR electoral systems. The new parliament offered the chance for a new beginning, but this was largely ruined by the SNP's insistence in continuing the bickering tribalism of Westminster. Labour were as bad of course, but that's hardly a surprise. Isn't it strange that the SNP should be keenest to adopt 'English' parliamentary manners? |
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| Red Justice |
"He represents a long-standing minority viewpoint within Scottish nationalism"
Agentmancuso do not fully understand your comment? I am not nor wish to be associated with the Scot Nats. My viewpoint is at times patriotic but I am not a nationalist. I am a socialist and it is amongst socialists I only associate for political campaigning. The Nats or similar types of recent (metaphorically speaking) would rather stab me in the back. I do not associate with these people who would not replace the class ridden capitalist system after independence. I am for an independent socialist Scotland or the effort of independence will be meaningless at least to me. I am not and never will be reformist and if that is a minority view then I am happy with that. I can still be republican socialist in Scotland without being an apologist for the nationalists. My beliefs are revolutionary and unlike some have no faith in any system of constitutional change by mere parliamentary means alone. |
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| agentmancuso |
You mean you prefer breaking things over talking to people? |
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| William_Cleland |
Hope you are not an English teacher as I never said he was. Don't think he is a Scottish nationalist personally. He always appears to me to be a keyboard provo along the same lines as parkheadRFB.
I suspect you take them seriously because doing so confirms your prejudices about the people you routinely demonise i.e. SNP supporters, while most others simply ignore them because they don't see their posts as being worth bothering with. Anyway, getting back to your essential political unit stuff how does Scottish nationalism fit that definition when only 10% say they would back an independent Scotland outside both the EU and UK, while a significantly higher percentage back indepenence in an EU context? That suggests pragmatism where the national political unit is concerned. Even where that 10% is concerned how many would back independence if it meant a Kim Jong-Il style communist dictatorship? |
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| Red Justice |
No it means I would advocate going further than mere talking for example let the government bring in ID cards and as happened during the poll tax let us have disobedience and non compliance and that would be politically more revolutionary. Protesting even within the law peacefully on the streets can be revolutionary check out Martin Lutha King. |
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| Holebender |
Well that is so simple I thought it would be bleeding obvious. The UK is broken beyond repair and has always been unacceptably biased towards the south, rather like the weather maps used by the BBC. In order to best serve the needs of the people where I live we need a government which will actually know we exist and will do what it needs to to get our votes. Scotland has a long history as an independent state and an existing and growing pro-independence movement. Why not encourage and work for Scotland's independence as a means of achieving better, more representative, government for me and my neighbours? Don't you get that? I know many people whose support for independence is base entirely on the argument of better governance. |
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| Alasdair |
Currently it seems to be one of the most compelling arguments available. |
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| Holebender |
The BBC weathermap is actually an excellent analogy of the UK from the UK Establishment's point of view. | ||||||||||||||||
| Alasdair |
I take it they're still using the graphic which makes Scotland look incy-wincy then ... or have they some new way of making us look small and insignificant? |
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| Holebender |
Oh, I don't actually know. I haven't seen it in a while but when I last saw it Shetland was practically invisible.
I noticed when the former Grampian TV (now part of STV) started using a weather map from the Meteorological Office in their news bulletins it had that same south-north bias. |
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| Dave Coull |
Red Justice wrote "My viewpoint is at times patriotic"
According to a newspaper report I read of evidence given against you in a court case in Arbroath, your viewpoint could at times be considered quite racist. "but I am not a nationalist. I am a socialist and it is amongst socialists I only associate for political campaigning". That isn't strictly true. You have claimed you weren't expelled from the Scottish Socialist Party, but left it "because of the treatment of Tommy". As if Comrade Sheridan didn't have problems enough. But even if it is true that you would prefer to associate with socialists, the bit about only associating with socialists for campaigning isn't true. You joined Independence First, a campaign which, by claiming to be strictly non-party-political, has obviously never been exclusively socialist. Yes, you were expelled from IF, but it certainly wasn't for being a socialist. Also, a couple of months back you were quite happy to take part in collecting signatures for the Scottish Independence Convention petition. Although the SIC includes both the SSP and Solidarity, it also includes the SNP and the Green Party, so, by definition, you were associating with non-socialists. True, you did used to be a member of the Scottish Republican Socialist Movement. But they also expelled you, and not for being a socialist. I can't actually remember the name of the Scottish Republican Socialist Movement's magazine, but I remember I did once buy a copy of it. Inside, there was a very interesting article by an English member of the SRSM. She described her experience as an English person living in Scotland, and becoming involved in the SRSM, in very positive terms. Sadly, if she was to write about her experiences now, she would be unable to be as positive. That article must have been written before the court case in Arbroath where you were accused of harassment of her. Now, I am not a member of the SRSM, but I know several folk who are, and who have stated that the reason they expelled you was because they found your anti-English attitudes too much to stomach. Facts like that do not square with your pose as a principled socialist. |
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| Red Justice |
I am a principled socialist let the SRSM speak for themselves, what you say is just your usual drivel as I said grow up Coull! |
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| Red Justice |
You lack common sense Coull and seem unable to read what I had written.
read below! I only associate with socialists nowadays I was not talking about previous campaign work are stupid Coull?. It is obvious individuals like yourself cannot be trusted if I campaign with say yourself for the indepedence convention the problem is for the next day being the idiot you are you then proceed to blast things about me on this forum. I would not entertain your type and will not be doing so I can campaign with better human beings and leave the likes of your kind behind. You got a problem! It being yourself! |
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| agentmancuso |
Please leave the obscure personal comments to one side. It's even duller than the useless pedantry. You said: "let the moderators do their job where posters like Red Justice are concerned and in general prefer not to feed obvious trolls" where Red Justice is evidently the specific troll to your general trolls.
He believes in "independence", which will do for me as a working definition of 'Scottish Nationalist'. But agreed on the second point.
I have never demonised SNP supporters. I regularly criticise the minority who make xenophobic remarks, and the larger group who tolerate them out of a) electoral necessity or b) silent agreement. The fact that nationalist posters regularly and freely provide evidence for my stated belief that all nationalism contains a dangerous element is proof not of my prejudices, but of the nature of nationalism.
The figures themselves suggest that many SNP voters are (otherwise) quite sensible. But this has nothing to do with the 'essential' question, though I concede that might be my fault for failing to make myself clear. By 'essential' I mean literally 'possessing of an essence' i.e. something other than an accident of history and a temporary state of affairs. |
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| agentmancuso |
Any such claim can only be based on faith alone.
Surely you mean a long dead history?
It's not a question of getting it, but of believing that an independent Scotland would actually do any of those things. What makes you so sure it would?
Well what makes them so sure then? |
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| Red Justice |
"He believes in "independence", which will do for me as a working definition of 'Scottish Nationalist'"
The above statement is not true agentmancuso I believe in an independent socialist Scotland that does not make me a nationalist. For the benefit of any idiot that cannot read the campaign work I do nowadays involves socialists not nationalists. So I am a socialist not a nat I do not even like some of the nats or their so-called friends |
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| agentmancuso |
What part of 'working definition' escapes your gulag-addled mind? |
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| Red Justice |
I believe in independence as part of a socialist society indeed a socialist republic it is not difficult to see there are differences between me and those who believe in the concept of nationalism, and quite simply mere independence probably for a better governance of Scotland alone being there only reason stated.
Not rocket science agenmancuso |
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| Holebender |
Not at all. It is based on my analysis of the situation we find ourselves in. If you believe otherwise I will pay you the courtesy of thinking you have grounds for your belief rather than blind faith. The least you can do is reciprocate.
Only in the sense that all history is in the past and therefore dead. Scotland has a history of some 800 or so years as a recognisable independent state and 300 years as a subdivision of another state. I'd say history is on the side of independence; it has been lost before, and regained.
What makes you so sure it wouldn't? I can only go on my observations and analysis which tell me independence couldn't be worse that the present situation. Leaving the nest and becoming independent is the making of most adults, and I see no reason why it shouldn't also be the case for a collection of adults living in Scotland.
You'll have to ask them. In my opinion they have followed a similar path to mine and have arrived at a similar conclusion. Will you now acknowledge that people can support independence, be comfortable with the epithet "nationalist", and not have these blood and soil "essential" notions you keep banging on about? |
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| William_Cleland |
One moment he isn't demonising people, the next moment all nationalism contains a dangerous element.
Given it has already become abundantly clear that you do not fully understand the nature of federalism I don't think you are in a strong position to be setting yourself up as some sort of political guru on here. The reason people tend to be so pragmatic about Scottish nationalism and are willing to peacefully take no for an answer is that it lacks a clear moral imperative. It is only when the question of national identity becomes tied into something like religious faith, which can provide that missing moral imperative i.e. it becomes a jihad or a crusade etc, that people become dogmatic about the whole question of nationality. Hence the difference between what happens on the island of Ireland and what happens in Scotland and also why the emergence of Bosnia and Slovakia as internationally recognised states were completely different scenarios, which did not inherently involve the same dangers. |
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| Aventinian |
I wonder that it's not simply a matter of terminology. It would be rather odd to say I "demonise" murderers simply because I think murder is wrong, for example. Ultimately however, I imagine Agent feels the same way about Nationalism - and quite correctly so in my mind. Speaking for myself, if that's demonising you, then I'm afraid I must just consider you demons. 
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| Holebender |
So now you equate nationalism with murderers.
Could you try to be more offensive? |
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| doodells |
What if Scotland did become independent?
Everyone who feels a smidgen of hope must act now.... everyone who wants it, must act now. The people who believe that Scotland should be independent need to focus much more strongly on getting independence. They need to drive for it, tell everyone, persuade everyone, spend all of their free time campaigning. If not... then you might need to live with the prospect of losing support.. losing a referendum. I guarantee that the unionists have began their campaign to keep Scotland and all it is worth, within its grasp. Do not underestimate the power of the UK and the people who have interests in keeping Scotland a part of the UK. |
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| William_Cleland |
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