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| Red Justice |
What is your favourite Burns poem?I could have put this in the history section but Robert Burns is living history for all of us and tonight we celebrate the great poet. it would be interesting to know what is your favourite poem by Burns in today's Scotland.This is mine as Burns was egalitarian and also had a social conscience during his life as Scotland's poet: http://www.robertburns.org http://www.robertburns.org/works/496.shtml 1795 Type: Song Tune: For a' that. Is there for honest Poverty That hings his head, an' a' that; The coward slave-we pass him by, We dare be poor for a' that! For a' that, an' a' that. Our toils obscure an' a' that, The rank is but the guinea's stamp, The Man's the gowd for a' that. What though on hamely fare we dine, Wear hoddin grey, an' a that; Gie fools their silks, and knaves their wine; A Man's a Man for a' that: For a' that, and a' that, Their tinsel show, an' a' that; The honest man, tho' e'er sae poor, Is king o' men for a' that. Ye see yon birkie, ca'd a lord, Wha struts, an' stares, an' a' that; Tho' hundreds worship at his word, He's but a coof for a' that: For a' that, an' a' that, His ribband, star, an' a' that: The man o' independent mind He looks an' laughs at a' that. A prince can mak a belted knight, A marquis, duke, an' a' that; But an honest man's abon his might, Gude faith, he maunna fa' that! For a' that, an' a' that, Their dignities an' a' that; The pith o' sense, an' pride o' worth, Are higher rank than a' that. Then let us pray that come it may, (As come it will for a' that,) That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth, Shall bear the gree, an' a' that. For a' that, an' a' that, It's coming yet for a' that, That Man to Man, the world o'er, Shall brothers be for a' that. |
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| Aventinian |
I too like For A' That, it makes a rare song.
However my favourite has to be the following: Willie Brew'd A Peck O' Maut Chorus We are na fou, we're nae that fou, But just a drappie in our e'e! The c**k may craw, the day may daw, And ay we'll taste the barley-bree! 1. O, Willie brewed a peck o' maut, And Rob and Allan cam to prie. Three blythe hearts that lee-lang night Ye wad na found in Christendie. 2. Here are we met three merry boys, Three merry boys I trow are we; And monie a night we've merry been, And monie mae we hope to be! 3. It is the moon, I ken her horn, That's blinkin in the lift sae hie: She shines sae bright to wyle us hame, But, by my sooth, she'll wait a wee! 4. Wha first shall rise to gang awa, A cuckold, coward loun is he! Wha first beside his chair shall fa', He is the King amang us three! Happy Burns' Night to one and all. |
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| Rinty |
Why should we idly waste our prime
Repeating our oppressions? Come rouse to arms! 'Tis now the time To punish past transgressions. 'Tis said that Kings can do no wrong -- Their murderous deeds deny it, And, since from us their power is sprung, We have a right to try it. Now each true patriot's song shall be: - 'Welcome Death or Libertie!' Proud Priests and Bishops we'll translate And canonize as Martyrs; The guillotine on Peers shall wait; And Knights shall hang in garters. Those Despots long have trode us down, And Judges are their engines: Such wretched minions of a Crown Demand the people's vengeance! To-day 'tis theirs. To-morrow we Shall don the Cap of Libertie! The Golden Age we'll then revive: Each man will be a brother; In harmony we all shall live, And share the earth together; In Virtue train'd, enlighten'd Youth Will love each fellow-creature; And future years shall prove the truth That Man is good by nature: Then let us toast with three times three The reign of Peace and Libertie! |
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| agentmancuso |
How about Does Haughty Gaul Invasion Threat?
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| Holebender |
It's Holy Willie's Prayer for me. It's a biting satire and has self-righteous "Holy Willies" everywhere bang to rights. | ||||||||
| Aventinian |
I considered it. Then I decided to leave the old horses for an evening; they've been frightened enough lately. |
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| William_Cleland |
^^Sadly predictable but I suppose winding people up on here helps him vent his spleen after a day in the classroom.
Epitaph For James Smith 1785 Type: Epitaph Lament him, Mauchline husbands a', He aften did assist ye; For had ye staid hale weeks awa, Your wives they ne'er had miss'd ye. Ye Mauchline bairns, as on ye press To school in bands thegither, O tread ye lightly on his grass, - Perhaps he was your father! |
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| RadgeJougal |
The Twa Dugs (obviously) | ||||||||
| azzuri |
I have two which I love for differing reasons, the first already having been mentioned, A Man's A Man for A' That!
But "Charlie, He's my Darling", that just edges it for me. My granny used to sing to me when I was wee, little did she know the song's all about how easy it is to make love to a lady while wearing a kilt! 
see - http://www.robertburns.org/works/458.shtml |
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| agentmancuso |
Even more predictable than a discussion about how wonderful one minor Scots poet is by people who think him wonderful on the sole grounds of his nationality, yet who would collectively have severe trouble naming another Scots poet, never mind anything he'd written? |
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| will live from Glasgow |
to a louse if only for the line
"O wad some Power the gift tae gie us To see oursels as ithers see us!" cos weve all wanted it at some point and it sounds so much more profound the way he writes it. |
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| William_Cleland |
Tough day at the chalkface I take it? You badly need to get a grip if you genuinely think Burns was a minor poet and that wasn't just another lame attempt at winding up the Nat nuts. What was the inspiration for the title of John Steinbeck's "Of Mice and Men"? |
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| Red Justice |
Try Hugh MacDiarmid wrote famously 'A Drunk Man Looks at a Thistle" and lived until as recent as 1978. However Rabbie Burns is a major Scots poet known worldwide. Also poems by Burns are a far more interesting distraction than the agent is 
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| RadgeJougal |
Erm, I could name you dozens more. I think this is particularly stupid as an argument, since many Scots have heard of Walter Scott, who was originally famous for being a poet. Oh what a tangled web you weave! Burns, whatever your personal opinion of him, is internationally known to some degree, and his work has been translated into fifty languages. |
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| agentmancuso |
Not many people know that. Fewer have ever read a line he wrote, unless forced to in school, be it prose or poetry.
Good for him. I've nothing against Burns, all good fun. But not, I think, poetry of the highest calibre. |
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| agentmancuso |
What possible argument would you like to make for Burns as a major poet? |
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| William_Cleland |
I already gave you one as did RadgeJougal. Not wasting any more of my time on such a ridiculous windup. | ||||||||
| agentmancuso |
That's even less convincing than usual. |
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| William_Cleland |
Got better things to do with my time particularly when I strongly suspect that your posture revolves around your now well documented prejudices about "dialect". | ||||||||
| agentmancuso |
I like dialects. I like Burns. But I don't think he can really be described as a 'major' poet. What's that got to do with prejudice? | ||||||||
| Cymro |
Well I hate poerty, I can't be bothered with them at all. But if you where to look at the major and most famous British poets I'd argue Rabbie Burns would be very very high up.
It's probably your wanting to slate anything and everything recently in a series of threads that might be behind the prejudice comments. Not been getting any recently or something Agent? 
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| agentmancuso |
I like poetry. I think it important even. Burns is certainly well known in the English speaking world. But I don't think that significance can entirely be reduced to notoriety when speaking of literature, or art of any kind. | ||||||||
| Cymro |
Well despite my hatred of poetry if you asked me for the name of a famous poet Robert Burns would be very high up alongside Dylan Thomas and Shakespere. Ask me for a poem he'd written and like Shakespere I wouldn't have a clue.
"Under Milkwood" on the other hand..... |
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| RadgeJougal |
Fair enough, but many people have still heard of Wattie. If only because of his big tower on Princes Street. You just did read a line he wrote, more or less "Oh what a tangled web we weave"
No one can agree on what is though... I don't think Scott's a good pet, only that many people have heard of him. As for the major poet business, apart from the numerous languages he's been translated into, his influence turns up in surprising places. "Catcher in the Rye" and "Of Mice and Men", those American novels that kids are forced to study in school, both take their names from lines in Burns' poems. 
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| RadgeJougal |
I'm sure you'll even know some of Shakespeare's poetry, especially the quote below, since part of the last line was the title of a show which gave a certain Welsh actress her big break. Part of his 18th sonnet
I'm no expert on poetry, but there's huge number of quotes that are floating around, along with sayings etc, that come from Shakespeare and Scott. The difference is, with Burns, that it's usually linked back to him. |
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| agentmancuso |
I'm sure I read that his statue in George Square is the highest statue of an author in the world, or something of the sort.
I didn't know that was from Scott either.
Scott is a figure of enormous importance in the development of the European novel, and highly regarded on the continent as a result. My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it. [/quote]
Ha! Very good. |
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| RadgeJougal |
AM - I rate Walter Scott far more highly as an influence. He influenced Balzac, Tolstoy and reams of other very very well known authors. However a lot of his stuff's pretty hard to get into. I found Waverley unreadable. He started out life as a poet, ended as a novelist. I can't forgive him for his conscious manipulation of Scottish history though, and his dire attempts at Gaelic. How could a man who was fluent in several languages (German and French amongst them) fail to pick up Gaelic properly? | ||||||||
| Holebender |
Well well well. No prejudice there then, eh? I wonder how many other opinions you express on here without so much as glancing at the arguments for or against. I think I might just have to bookmark that little phrase of yours. |
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| Cymro |
"I'm sure you'll even know some of Shakespeare's poetry,"
Fraid not |
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| agentmancuso |
The difference is that when I make an uniformed comment I openly advertise it as such. It's hardly surprising that you be troubled by that I suppose. The opinion I offered was based on the importance afforded to Scott by European Romantic and later writers, such as those mentioned by RJ, plus Stendhal and many others. The academic consensus is that it's impossible to seriously study the novel as a form of literature and not consider Scott in some way or another. Of his poetry, little is said. If you have any informed opinion to the contrary I'd be glad to take it into account from now on? No, I thought not. |
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| agentmancuso |
As far as I can remember I've only ever read Rob Roy. I've long intended to have a go at Old Mortality, but never got round to it. But as you say, the poetry is not particularly appealing.
Why not? Isn't that what novelists do?
Well I'm fluent in several languages and I've never made any headway with Gaelic either. I suspect, like me, Scott didn't try hard enough. |
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| RadgeJougal |
You telling me you've never heard of the "Darling Buds of May", the series which gave us Catherine Zeta Jones? 
You wouldn't have been surrounded by Gaidhlig speaking monoglots. Scott was, frequently. He showed a great deal of linguistic ability, which explains the strong German influence on his work, and his ability to write so well on Napoleon having used the original sources. |
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| Aventinian |
Shall I compare thee to a summer's day...? ...nah, I don't imagine you'd come out of it well.
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| jimtrot |
His works, ya choob. |
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| Morph |
Personally i like "Scots Wae Hae"
Not because of the tones in the poem but it was my first burns poem i learned in school |
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| mairead |
Radge,
Are you not aware that Walter Scott was a traitor to Scotland. In the 1820 weavers rising, he infiltrated the movement and was an informer to the Westminster government. Due to his spying, men were executed and many sent to the colonies. It was for this work that he was granted his Baronecy. Later he was dumped by the King and Government he worked so hard for, and went into a state of poverty. Hell mend him too. If I had my way I'd wipe his name from every book and paper. |
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| mairead |
Yep Morph, I agree with your choice. | ||||||||
| Morph |
as i said though purely from a memory from school not for any other reason. Well ok maybe a bit | ||||||||
| RadgeJougal |
And? |
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| mairead |
Is 'And' the best reply you can make to a simple, straightforward question then? 
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| Dave Coull |
Mairead said about Walter Scott "Due to his spying, men were executed" and commented "Hell mend him".
You may be interested to know, Mairead, that the author of "Huckleberry Finn" and "Tom Sawyer" agreed with you about Walter Scott's final destination. As well as writing those novels, Mark Twain was a prolific writer on culture and current affairs. He wrote an essay in which he claimed that Walter Scott was largely responsible for the American Civil War. Bit of an exaggeration, perhaps, but Mark Twain made out quite a good case for the prosecution against Walter. Scott was extremely widely read in the South, where plantation owners influenced by his books developed notions of themselves as Scottish warrior aristocracy whose "honour" was in some obscure way impugned by any attempts to improve the lot of their black slaves. |
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| RadgeJougal |
No. 
I've heard all the stuff about Scott. We know he was a Tory and a Britisher. No secret there. By the way, Dave, I expect you know (as you always do) that the fiery cross probably came to the KKK via Scott. |
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| Aventinian |
Quite what a reform movement, particularly one largely begun in the North of England, has to do with 'Scotland' is beyond me... But then again, Reform, Jacobite Risings, the Civil War - it's all helpful if they can be attributed to some modern day enemy in order to drum up nationalistic fervour. Just don't worry too much about facts, eh?
And rightly so. Armed insurrection and treason really isn't on. |
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| mairead |
Neither is being a traitor to your countrymen.
'Armed', aye, a few had guns but most of them were armed with picks and shovels and anything else they could make. You haven't a clue what life was like in those times and yes I know all about Peterloo. |
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| jimtrot |
Tam o' Shanter. Especially the following couplet:
Ah, Tam. Ah, Tam ye'll get yer farin In Hell they'll roast ye like a herrin. |
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| Dave Coull |
In 1936, George Orwell (real name Eric Blair, Orwell was his pen-name) was a corporal in the militia of the Partido Obreras Unitas Marxistas, the Workers Party of Marxist Unity. Despite its name, this party, in its origins, was neither Stalinist nor Trotskyist. The POUM was allied with the anarchists in opposing both the fascists and the scheming of the Communist Party (acting under orders from Joseph Stalin) to set up a dictatorship. Corporal Blair was badly wounded fighting against the fascists, and, while recovering from that wound, he played an active part in the POUM’s opposition to the Communist Party takeover in Barcelona. He subsequently became a wanted man and had to go on the run, and was lucky to get out of Spain alive. He later used these experiences in his books “Homage To Catalonia”, “Animal Farm”, and “1984”. While some on the so-called “left” have been critical of George Orwell, members of the POUM have all along been consistent in seeing him as a good and loyal comrade with a fine insight into how Stalinism operated. Jim Trot, who posts on here, uses the symbol of the POUM, perhaps because of seeking to claim some sort of identity with these views.
Jim Trot has now answered the question “What’s your favourite Burns poem?” by saying "Tam o' Shanter. Especially the following couplet: Ah, Tam. Ah, Tam ye'll get yer farin In Hell they'll roast ye like a herring" Hmmm...... Somehow, I get the feeling that isn't JimTrot's favourite on purely poetical grounds, but as an expression of his views on a current political and legal case. So, not much Marxist Workers Unity there, then. |
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| jimtrot |
I agree with everything you say about the POUM, Dave and most of what you said about Orwell re his loyalty to the workers, the POUM and his opposition to Stalinism but in reading his writings, you must agree that he never quite shook off his bourgeois background. For example in one of the essays in Shooting an Elephant, I think it is, he waxes lyrical about the essential decency of the English middle classes. Well, anyone who lived through the Thatcher years would see through that crap.
As for Tam o Shanter, I can assure I think it is probably one of the finest and funniest poems ever written on the subject of human weakness and fallibility and you can always find a snippet to quote for any situation. for example: But pleasures are like poppies spread, You seize the flow'r, its bloom is shed; Or like the snow falls in the river, A moment white-then melts for ever; Or like the Borealis race, That flit ere you can point their place; Or like the Rainbow's lovely form Evanishing amid the storm. As for me claiming identity with the POUM, well that's a bit over the top but the history of the resistance of the people of Catalunya to Franco and Fascism has been an inspiration for me throughout my adult life. Regarding Workers unity, that was shattered in Scotland about 18 months ago because of the weakness, fallibility, arrogance and stupidity of a man I once greatly admired. |
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| Dave Coull |
A fig for those by law protected !
Liberty's a glorious feast ! Courts for cowards were erected, Churches built to please the priest. |
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| jimtrot |
Couldn't agree more. |
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| Dave Coull |
Jimtrot wrote
"Dave Coull wrote A fig for those by law protected ! Liberty's a glorious feast ! Courts for cowards were erected, Churches built to please the priest." Tae tell the truth, it wisnae me, it was Rabbie Burns......... |
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| Fedayn |
Beat me to it [inserts clapping smiley] |
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