What's in a Name?

Blackadder · What's in a Name?

I am on many forums (forii?) and noticed on this one, the same bit of ignorance I've seen on lots of sites. So, let me elucidate once more ...

Great Britain ... is actually a shortened form of Greater Britain. This was because a part of Gaul (France) was called Lesser (Less) Britain ... now Brittany.

When the Romans left Britain in 410, the Saxon Shore (the British East Coast) was under constant attacks from the Saxons. Many Brits fled westward and the Saxons gained a foothold. As they pressured the Brits even more, many Brits fled to Gaul and set up Less Britain as a refuge for their fleeing countrymen. They were bolstered by returning British legionaries after the Battle of Aquiliea and Brittany became a recognised continental colony of Britain.

It was these colonists who termed their homeland Great(er) Britain ... It was picked up on after the Georges came to the Union throne ... and Great Britain was the accepted name (apart from the United Kingdom) thereafter.

Pragmatic Pict

Also the term Briton so commonly applied by the media to people even those who aren't even born here just citizens originates from Roman times(probably the Romans).
The original official definition is simple- any human being who speaks any of the brythonic languages

Blackadder

*sighing in exasperation.

Origin of the term British Isles
In classical times, The prefix "Brit-" implied the Cruithne peoples and was used when describing the whole archipelago of islands. Native sources used oceani insulae meaning "islands of the ocean" or insularum meaning "islands".The phrase British Isles only appears in the English language from the 17th Century onwards but has gained common usage within the United Kingdom. From the 18th century the term Celt has been used to identify speakers of Celtic languages, including the Cruithne (speakers of Brythonic languages), the Gaels (speakers of Goidelic languages), and the speakers of the Continental Celtic languages (Gauls and Celtiberians).
The inhabitants of Great Britain in classical times were called the Priteni or Pretani by classical writers of geographies, who named it after these inhabitants, using a transliteration into their own language such as Latin (e.g. Bretannae) or Greek (e.g. Βρηττανων). Irene was the word they used for the island of Ireland, after the Érainn of its southern coasts.
Throughout Book 4 of his Geography, Strabo is consistent in spelling the island Britain (transliterated) as Prettanikee; he uses the terms Prettans or Brettans loosely to refer to the islands as a group - a common generalisation used by classical geographers. For example, in Geography 2.1.18, …οι νοτιωτατοι των Βρηττανων βορηιοτηροι τουτον ηισιν (…the most southern of the Brettans are further north than this). He was writing around AD 10, although the earliest surviving copy of his work dates from the 6th century.
Pliny the Elder writing around AD 70 uses a Latin version of the same terminology in section 4.102 of his Naturalis Historia. He writes of Great Britain: Albion ipsi nomen fuit, cum Britanniae vocarentur omnes de quibus mox paulo dicemus. (Albion was its own name, when all [the islands] were called the Britannias). In the following section, 4.103, Pliny enumerates the islands he considers to make up the Britannias, listing Great Britain, Ireland, and many smaller islands.
Ptolemy includes Ireland — he calls it Hibernia — in the island group he calls Britannia. He entitles Book II, Chapter 1 of his Geography as Hibernia, Island of Britannia.
The early surviving discussion of the geography is almost exclusively in classical languages. The "British Isles" terminology is found in modern English only in documents written after the Reformation in England, the earliest quotation of "British Isles" given by the Oxford English Dictionary is in 1621.
The earliest indigenous source to use a collective term for the archipelago is the Life of Saint Columba, a hagiography recording the missionary activities of the sixth century Irish monk Saint Columba among the peoples of modern Scotland. It was written in the late seventh century by Adomnán of Iona, an Irish monk living on the Inner Hebridean island. The collective term for the archipelago used within this work is Oceani Insulae meaning "Islands of the Ocean" (Book 2, 46 in the Sharpe edition = Book 2, 47 in Reeves edition), it is used sparingly and no Priteni-derived collective reference is made.
Another early native source to use a collective term is the Historia ecclesiastica gentis Anglorum of Bede written in the early eighth century. The collective term for the archipelago used within this work is insularum meaning "islands" (Book 1 and 8 ) and it too is used sparingly.

Pragmatic Pict

Thanks for that information Blackadder but ancient history is always up for debate and I was only stating what is roughly believed to be the case ( the romans were believed to call any brythonic speaking person a Briton).
One history source believes the origins of the word Celt (not the exact spelling obviously) is from Ancient Greek. ( I will bring detail of this when I find the blasted book!)

IF Convenor

You were stating what you believe to be the case. Romans, believe it or not, spoke Latin.

Blackadder

Latin was the lingua Franca of its day.

Pragmatic Pict

Cymro

The name given to this island (Great Britain) in the Mabinogi is 'Ynys y (Isle of) Kedeyrn'. Not sure what the 'Kedeyrn' bit refers too.

The word Britain is a gradual evolution of the Celtic word 'Brython', which is the family of languages of which Welsh, Cornish and Breton belong. It's quite probable therefore that this island was given the name Britain by the Romans in reference to those who lived on the island given that they largely failed to conquer the bits of the island where Goedelic was spoken, so with Hadrians Wall being the Northern Periphery it was like they where denying an existance of anything above the wall.

It's an interesting part of out history, and a piece children, in Wales, Scotland or England are tought. Most believe Britain comes from the word Britainia and has nothing to do with Celts.

Anthropos

Cunnings · Re: What's in a Name?

Blackleaf

I wish you "Celts" will stop saying that the word "Britain" is Celtic in origin.

"Britain" derives, ultimately, from an Anglo-Saxon (Old English) word, not Celtic. The Anglo-Saxons called it Breoton, Breoten, Bryten or Breten, and also Breoton-lond and Breten-land. (Just like "England" derives from "Engla-lond".

Dave Coull

The name "Britain" comes down from ancient times, but there is really little doubt that the name GREAT Britain is of medieval French origin.

For quite a few centuries after the Norman Conquest pf 1066ad, the kings of England, and the ruling class of England, spoke French, they considered themselves to be French, and they also ruled large parts of France. One of the most famous of "English" hero kings, Richard the Lionheart, spent most of his life in France, and hardly ever visited England.

In French, "Brittany" and "Britain" are the same word - "Bretagne", which is pronounced, more or less, as "Britannia", but with a bit more nasal tone than that English word. The ancestors of the Stuarts, who later became the royal line of first Scotland and then England, came from Brittany, from "Bretagne", and came across to England with William the Conqueror.

For this French-speaking ruling class, the fact that "Brittany" and "Britain" were the same word presented a bit of a problem. How to distinguish between them? How to make it clear WHICH "Bretagne" you were speaking about?

The solution was to refer to the "Britain" which had been (at least, partly) conquered as "Big" Britain : Grande Bretagne.

Several centuries later, when the French-speaking ruling class of England finally condescended to learn how to speak English, they MIS-translated "Big" Britain, Grande Bretagne, as "Great" Britain. But in reality it has nothing at all to do with "greatness", it just means the Britain which is bigger than Brittany. That's all.

Jimbo

Blackleaf wrote:

agentmancuso

agentmancuso

Dave Coull

It is laughable for Blackleaf to claim that the name "Britain" is of English origin. The name clearly existed long before the Anglo-Saxons set sail from their continental homeland. The English name was obviously adapted from the Romans, who were in "Britain" before them, just as the Romans adopted it from the Pretani, who were there before THEM.

However, some folk appear to be muddling two very different questions here (1) the origin of the name "Britain", and (2) the origin of the name GREAT Britain.

Going back to the very first post on this topic, Blackadder wrote "Great Britain ... is actually a shortened form of Greater Britain".

Which is more or less correct.

However, Blackadder went on to talk about Roman Gaul and the Saxon Shore and when the Romans left Britain in 410ad, and while that may be relevant to the name "Britain", I think it is far too early to be relevant to the name "GREAT Britain". It seems obvious to me that the term Great Britain, "Grande Bretagne" to give it its French name, arose much later.

Blackadder says "It was these colonists" (that is, the "Britons" who settled in Brittany) "who termed their homeland Great(er) Britain".

The trouble with this idea is, it provides no convincing reason why the term used by these folk speaking a language similar to Welsh should have become more generally used, amongst speakers of French and English. These Brittany folk were not the rulers of France, nor were they the rulers of England. Why would anybody else adopt the practice of this obscure minority group?

Blackadder says "It was picked up on after the Georges came to the Union throne".

That is simply historically wrong. Long before George the First, James the Sixth of Scotland and the First of England encouraged folk to use the term "Great Britain", and he was of the House of Stuart. There is nothing particularly "Hanoverian" about the term.

In fact, although James the Sixth sought to encourage use of the term, it existed long before his time also. That is to say, long before James the Sixth and First, but, nevertheless, much later than the Romans, the Saxon Shore, etc. I'm not saying that it was in widespread use in the Middle Ages (it wasn't) but simply that it existed then, and NOT before then. It was the formation of the United Kingdom which gave a political impetus to the spread of the use of the term "Great Britain", but this obscure term existed well before the political impetus to encourage its usage.

The folk of Brittany, speaking a language similar to Welsh, had no means of getting the term "Great Britain" more widely used amongst the populations of France and England; but the inter-married and inter-related ruling classes of France and England DID have the means of doing so.

For quite a few centuries after the Norman Conquest pf 1066ad, the kings of England, and the ruling class of England, spoke French. Even to this day, no Act of Parliament actually becomes law until the exact moment when the Queen speaks out loud the Norman-French words "La Reine le veult" (the Queen wishes it). For centuries after 1066, the ruling class of England considered themselves to be French, and they also ruled very large areas of France. One of the most famous of "English" hero kings, long after the Conquest, Richard the Lionheart, spent most of his life in France, hardly ever visited England, and hardly spoke a word of English.

In French, "Brittany" and "Britain" are the same word - "Bretagne", which is pronounced, more or less, as "Britannia", but with a bit more nasal tone than that English word. The ancestors of the Stuarts, who later became the royal line of first Scotland and then England, came from Brittany, from "Bretagne", and came across to England with William the Conqueror.

For this French-speaking ruling class, the fact that "Brittany" and "Britain" were the same word presented a bit of a problem. How to distinguish between them? How to make it clear WHICH "Bretagne" you were speaking about?

The solution was to refer to the "Britain" which had been (at least, partly, the southern part anyway) conquered, as "Big" Britain : Grande Bretagne.

Several centuries later, when the French-speaking ruling class of England finally condescended to learn how to speak English, they MIS-translated "Big" Britain, Grande Bretagne, as "Great" Britain. But in reality it has nothing at all to do with "greatness", it just means the Britain which is bigger than Brittany. That's all.

Dave Coull

agentmancuso

Jimbo

Hi Agent,

Blackadder

Hoi! Hoi! HOI!!! Peasants!!!

LORD Blackadder can speak for himself without all this bloody "mistranslating" what I said or what I meant! Evil or Very Mad

Now pay sodding attention!!! Class is in session.

The word Britain is a translation. Brittania was the Roman Name. Before that, it was according to the Greek, Pytheas, who circumnavigated the coast, Pretanoi ... his translation of which the natives called Prydain ... or later Clas Prydain. Further North in what is now Scotland, the natives, whom Whom the Romans termed collectively, Caledonians or Picts, were an earlier branch of their Southern cousins, called themselves (though they belonged to different tribes) the Sons of Cruithne ... and the land was Kritanoi (according to Pytheas).

Now the observant among you will notice that Pretanoi and Kritanoi are almost the same. The difference is the same as that between the Q-Celtic that ultimately became Irish, Manx and Gaelic, whereas the P-Celtic was the Brythonic or British tongue that evolved into British, Cornish, Welsh and Breton.

By the end of the 6th Century ce, the last of the Romans had gone or become part of the native culture that was being pressed hard by the Sea Wolves ... the Saxons, Angles and Jutes. Some stayed in the Gaulish land called Less Britain (Brittany) while the larger remnants stayed in Greater Britain. The preceding centuries of Rival Emperors and then the internecine battles of the petty kings of the Celtic Kingdoms, weakened the country so much, it was finally taken by the more violent Saxons.

Greater Britain was piecemeal. A patchwork of kingdoms from Kernow (Cornwall) to Cat (Caithness) was ripe for takeover by younger, stronger tribes. The Saxons overran much of what we now call England, while the Jutes settled the coastlines and what is now Kent. Further North, the Angles went from the Humber to the Border and finally, up into what are now the Lothians. The Scots, invited in by the last of the Romans to form the buffer state of Dal nRiata, eventually took over the Pictish state through intermarriage, and inherited Areclut (Strathclyde) from the Britons through diplomacy. The Lothians and the Borders became part of the Scots land by outright battles to clear out the descendants of Ida and Edwin. Many stayed in the Lothian area and it was a kind of tolerated Saxon fiefdom, until the House of Alpin took it by force of arms. The Borders became the Debateable lands. As for the South ... the Brits were herded into what is now Wales and Cornwall.

That's not to say ALL of the Brits were evicted from their lands. Genetic research proves there are still more people of Celtic origin in the Island of Britain than those of the continental Saxon/Jute/Anglic. They just accepted that the Germanic Saxons were now their overlords and got on with it. Sort of a 6th Century idea of Better Red Than Dead!!!

So ... what have we learned? Primarily, that I'm right ... and anyone who says otherwise ... see me after class and I'll show you my PhD in the History of Early Europe!!!

And Blackheid ... you're expelled!!! Evil or Very Mad

Class dismissed.

Dave Coull

This topic is about the origin of the name "Great Britain".

I wrote that, when the French-speaking ruling class of England finally condescended to learn how to speak English, they MIS-translated Grande Bretagne as "Great" Britain.

Agentmancuso pointed out that this was not so much a case of mis-translation, as a case of a change of meaning of the English word "great". The original meaning of the English word "great" was simply "big"; but, gradually, over the centuries, that has changed to a situation nowadays where folk will say "that's great!" when what they mean is "that's very good!".

Always willing to learn something new, I said "Fair enough" to Agentmancuso's point.

After all , we were in agreement on the basic point that the French expression "Grande Bretagne" had nothing to do with greatness in the modern sense, it just means the Britain which is bigger than Brittany.

But not everybody is as willing as myself to acknowledge learning something new.

Blackadder

Au contraire, Cooly-boy!

I gave exactly the the recieved wisdom regarding the origin of the term, Great Britain. That you choose to ignore this flies in the face of the learned academicians who researched and published their findings long before you or I were born!

It was always known through older writings that the term existed and in 1604, James VI and I revived and assumed the title "King of Great Britain". This personal act was not well received ... and it was not until the Georges that the title was brought into more usage with clearer distinctions and definitions. Clearly, it was a marketing strategy and it worked. It had to if the British Empire was going to be birthed.

The term "Great Britain" had very little to do with the Norman Kings of England, except as leverage to retain and expand their continental dominions ... which of course ... failed miserably!

As have you. 4/10 ... and see me after class!!!

Dave Coull

Blackadder

Okay ... so you don't like Cooly-boy. My apologies.

The origin of the term Great Britain is still with the Celts of Less Britain (or Little Britain if you like) and if you're going to continue denying that then you're just being obtuse, Coolio!

I have no problem with the idea that the Norman-French became aware of the term through the writings of Gildas, Bede, Nennius and Geoffrey of Monmouth and then used Grande Bretagne in the manner you suggest ... but the essential term did not originate with them.

Now for goodness sake, Coolio ... lighten up! Very Happy

Dave Coull

The poster using the pseudoname "Blackadder" continues to assert that the origin of the term "GREAT Britain" is Celtic, or Breton. He simply ignores the contrary points I made.

Blackadder

Coolio ... I really don't like using these "quote" things with "I said" and Whoever said" because they're really, really annoying. One would hope respondents remember who said what without all the toing and froing!

I completely disagree with you and think you are obsessed with this French nonsense.

Do you honestly think the Celts of Less Britain and Greater Britain did not use the term with each other, or that it be recorded eventually so that Geoffrey of Monmouth and William of Malmesbury could transmit it to their benefactors, the Norman Lords, when the Matter of Britain was popularised both here and in France?

And I don't care who or how old you are. If I think you're wrong I'll say so ... BUT ... I'll try to do it with a little humour ... something you appear to be lacking ... which is a shame in an old codger. My late mother, no slouch in the History dept either, always made it fun for me as a child. Do you think that's wrong and it should be treated as grimly and miserably as maths??

And why do you assume my name is a pseudonym???

Like I said ... lighten up, Coolio. Get down and get jiggy with it! Very Happy

Dave Coull

Any further discussion of historical matters now looks impractical with

Blackadder

Jeez but you're a pompous and tiresome old windbag, aren't you, Coolio?? Twisted Evil

Dave Coull

Blackadder

Fair enough ... you're entitled to your opinion. You just don't like it when someone disagrees with you ...

I've had the misfortune to run into your type on other forums. A miserable old gasbag, pontificating on all and sundry like a real know-it-all ... who refuses to see another person's view as having equal validity and who has no sense of humour!

I see now why you don't come on to General Banter ... you wouldn't last 5 minutes with my 3 witches Mairead, Kaffy, BabyGael, Reluctant Hero, Macnumpty or the hubby-murderer, Carol!! They're all head and shoulders above you, you miserable old git! Twisted Evil

Holebender

Oh dear, Carol and Dave engaging in banter... I don't think so.

Dave Coull

Blackadder

Arse!!!

Babygael

Dave dear, cuid ye be more succinct like BA here wae yer posts? Only ahm askin' cos' reading yer very lang post hurted ma een', plus whit wis yer point onyroad, Sir?

Och! ave goat better things tae dee ye ken? Rolling Eyes

Dave Coull

Dave Coull

This is a discussion in the HISTORY section of the Our Scotland Forums. The topic heading is "What's In A Name?"

That refers to the name "Great Britain". The topic was originally about the historical origins of the name "Great Britain". The reason discussion on a History topic, in the History forum, got side-tracked, was because the poster using the pseudoname "Blackadder" chose instead to make it about the REAL name of one of the other posters, specifically, myself. Making fun of the names of other posters may be "General Banter", but it's not usually the sort of thing you would expect in a discussion between historians. However, even that playground activity could have been acceptable IF both parties involved had been using their own real names. But making fun of another person's real name while hiding your own name is downright cowardice. Now the poster using the name "Babygael" (more usually to be found under 'General Banter') seeks to take the discussion even further off topic. This topic may indeed be "What's In A Name?", but it has come a long way from the original discussion on the historical origins of the name "Great Britain". Personally, I remain willing to discuss that subject with anybody who has a genuine point to make about these historical origins. But those who want to reduce historical discussion to "general banter" have to be seriously opposed, no matter who this may offend, and no matter how long this may take.

Babygael

Blackadder

Dave Coull

Blackadder

I keep telling you, you miserable old git ... it IS my real name!

However I remind you that it is a general rule of theses types of forum that you do not have to use your own name if you so desire. You have no right to call on anyone to use any other name than that which they are using ... And I was calling you by a nickname that shows friendly acceptance ... not as you determined, in any mocking way. That problem is therefore yours, not mine!

And your unfair attack on our Babygael ...

Runaway Weegie

Right... I'm not going to get into the handbags at dawn stuff above...

That said... I can do lectures as well. Apologies in advance for hurting your eyes Babygael. Are we all sitting comfortably?

Britain derives from a Celtic ethnic name reconstructed in proto-Celtic as *Kwritenja. *Kwritenja referred to the Celtic speaking inhabitants of Britain in the late Iron Age, or perhaps a subgroup of them. *Kwritenja is believed to be based on the root *kwritu- meaning 'form' or 'shape'. In *Kwritenja it may be a reference to tattooing or body painting, so the name originally meant "the tattooed ones" or "the painted ones". *Kwritu- is the outcome in Celtic of proto-Indoeuropean *kwHrt- 'shape, appearance', giving later Old Irish cruth and Welsh pryd. (The same Indoeuropean word in its Indic guise gives the 'krit' part of the name Sanskrit - from Samskrta 'perfected-form')

Some Celtic dialects shifted kw to p. These dialects gave rise to Brittonic, Pictish, Gaulish and Galatian, the so-called P-Celtic languages. (kw > p is a very common sound change. It has occurred independently in several Indoeuropean branches.) In Brittonic and Gaulish, *Kwritenja became *Pritenja. Late Brittonic experienced a complex set of sound changes as it broke up into Welsh, Cornish and Breton. *Pritenja evolved into the later Welsh word Prydyn 'Picts'.

In Old Irish and in Celiberian, the kw was retained. This doesn't mean there was any special relationship between Old Irish and Celtiberian within Celtic. It's more likely they were peripheral dialects which happened to remain unaffected by the phonetic shift occurring in more central dialects. In Old Irish the kw later simplified to a plain k, written c. Ogham inscriptions still distinguish between kw and c. The ogham letter representing kw is usually transliterated as Q by specialists in Old Irish, hence the term Q-Celtic. Old Irish underwent some highly complex sound changes of its own in late Classical times and the Dark Ages, the original Celtic *Kwritenja evolved into Old Irish Cruithen, also with the meaning ‘Picts’.

This neatly explains the fact that Picti in Latin means "the painted ones". This would mean Latin Picti is a translation of the original Celtic name. (Unfortunately, this neatness of this theory is disturbed by the name of a Gaulish tribe, recorded as Pictones or Pictavi, which looks suspiciously similar to Picti.)

Native Pritenja/Kwritenja was never used as a place name, it was always the name of a group of people. The earliest attestations of it as a place name in Greek and Latin texts are in the meaning 'The Islands of the Pritanis'. It was the Romans who first used Brittania primarily as a place name. The -ja ending of Celtic was equated with the -ia of Latin, a common Latin ending for geographical names.

Classical writers first encountered the name in the P-Celtic form *Pritenja. Latin speakers often confused Celtic p t k with b d g when these consonants came before r or l, so the Romans misheard the name as Brittania and this is the form which became established in Latin. (The same Latin confusion of Celtic sounds before r or l is seen in the Latin word gladius, ‘a short sword’, borrowed from Gaulish *kledos. Compare modern Gaelic claidheamh 'sword'.) The confusion wasn't found in Greek, and early Greek versions of the name show the P. This was replaced by B in later Greek due to influence from Latin. Latin originally borrowed the name as Britania, later Latin has Brittania.

After the Roman conquest, *Pritenja became restricted in meaning and came to refer only to those Brittonic speakers who remained unconquered by Rome, the ancestors of the Picts. Romanised Britons began to refer to themselves by the Latin term Brittones, which they borrowed with a Celtic ending as *Brittonaki.

The same thing occurred in Old Irish, and Cruithen became restricted in meaning to the non-Romanised inhabitants of Britain. To refer to the Romano-Britons, Old Irish borrowed the Brittonic form of the Latin word as Breatnach.

A large number of Romano-Britons fled southern Britain during the early Anglosaxon period and settled in Gaulish Armorica, where they gained political control. The province was henceforth known as Brittania Minor 'Younger Britain' in Latin texts. Where there was a need to disambiguate, the island of Britain was called Brittania Maior 'Elder Britain'.

Latin in Gaul evolved into Old French. Speakers of Old French had more occasion to deal with Bretons than with inhabitants of Britain, so in the Latin of Gaul, the "Minor" of Brittania Minor was usually omitted, and the name evolved into the French Bretagne which usually meant Brittany. In Old French Latin maior in the sense of 'elder' was replaced with grand (as in grand-mère, grand-père). When the need arose in Old French, the island of Britain could be disambiguated from Bretagne as Grande Bretagne.

The modern form of the name used in English was borrowed from French. Old English Breoton was an earlier borrowing from Latin, probably from direct contacts with Rome before the Anglosaxons arrived in Britain. However the usual Old English term was Breotaland or Brettaland, which meant "land inhabited by Romano-Britons". (The Anglosaxons never used the word Brett to refer to the non-Romanised Celts of Britain.)

Breoton and Brettaland were replaced in Middle English by the French Grande Bretagne, borrowed as Great Bretayne. Great was the Middle English translation of the French grand. In Middle English, great meant 'big', but like the French grand could also have the meaning 'elder'. We see this use of great in the term great-uncle. The modern spelling Britain gets the i in the first syllable due to influence from the Latin Brittania.

In Middle English, a ‘great-less’ Bretayne often referred to Britain since English speakers had more cause to refer to the island of Britain than to Brittany. In historic contexts and in expressions like l'île de Bretagne / the island of Britain, the meaning was clear and no disambiguation was necessary. Where disambiguation was required, or in more formal contexts, Great Bretayne was preferred.

In Middle and Early Modern English texts, (Great) Britain competed with Albion as the name for the island. Albion is a Latinisation of the Old Irish name Alban which gives Scottish Gaelic Alba for Scotland. Alban appears to derive from the original Celtic geographical term for the island. Like (Great) Britain it was purely a geographical and historical term in earlier English.

James VI of Scotland was crowned King of Great Britain when he acceded to the English throne in 1603. This was the first time the name Great Britain applied to a contemporary political entity. As the version which was considered more formal due to its associations with French, Great Britain was chosen in preference to unadorned Britain. Britain was chosen over Albion due to the associations (Great) Britain had with the prestige and glory of the Roman Empire. After the 17th century, Albion becomes far less common in English texts, nowadays it's considered archaic and poetic.

The semantic evolution of the English word great (it just meant ‘big’ or ‘elder’ in Middle English) into a word with markedly positive overtones was another factor which contributed to the use of the full phrase Great Britain, even where the context made it clear that Britain and not Brittany was meant.

Brittany derives from a later adaptation of the Latin Brittania, the -ia of Latin loanwords regularly became -y in English, due to French influence where it had evolved into -ie. (Compare Italia > Italie > Italy). Coincidentally, in English the -y ending was also the diminutive, so Brittany became popularly regarded as being the diminutive of Britain, and was taken to mean "Little Britain". (Apparently Me zo ar gay dieil en ar pennkêr is "I'm the only gay in the village" in Breton. So now you know.)

The name Brittany became established in English in the 17th century. At the same time the word Breton became established in its modern meaning and was differentiated from Briton, prior to the 17th century Breton and Briton had been variant spellings of the same word. This dating is significant, as it shows English only acquired a formal distinction between Britain and Brittany (and Briton and Breton) after the Union of Crowns of 1603. The meaning had to be distinguished overtly because now the name (Great) Britain was being used outside of purely historical and geographical contexts.

After the Union of 1707 the name Great Britain became the official name of the new state. After this date we see the first use of (Great) Britain and its derivatives British and Briton in modern senses, and that's where the real arguments begin.

So the name Britain is Celtic, and Latin, and French. Everyone is right and we can all be happy. Except Blackleaf, because it's definitely not English.

Dave Coull

Blackadder

Regarding names ... are you asking Aventinian, Azzuri, Red Justice, Agentmancuso, Babygael or Reluctant Hero to reveal themselves publicly? Or is it just me (since you don't believe me) because I don't agree with you, and called you by a diminutive?

Whatever, each and every post you make continues to show how deserving you are of your arsehood! Twisted Evil

Dave Coull

Blackadder

I did not "mock" you, Coolio. That's only your misperception! Your problem!

Which doesn't excuse you're ever-growing state of being an arse! Twisted Evil

Jimbo

Hi Runaway Weegie,

good post. Could you tell us where you got your info from please? Book - author etc.

Just a couple of queries I would like to raise:

You say:

Jimbo

Could the site administrator not set up a section for people to take their disagreements/arguments to to resolve their differences. People having a set-to in the middle of a thread tends to disrupt the continuity of the thread and detracts somewhat from the good info' those same people have previously posted. If people want to start playing tit-for-tat, how about a verbal sparring gym?

Blackadder

If a certain individual accepts that I was not mocking him ... since I call everyone on the forum by diminutives ... and retracts his use of the word "coward" which was uncalled for ... I will happily drop the diminutives where he is concerned. Can't be more fair than that. Very Happy

Interesting ideas in there, Squeegee. Where did you come across them? I feel there are basic errors being committed in your post, but I'll forego commenting on them until we can get past a certain unpleasantness. I certainly want to comment on a few points myself. Very Happy

Babygael

Good evening gentlemen,Dave. Thank you Runaway Weegie,I brought the eye drops with me this time because lots of reading really does hurt my eyes,I prefer listening.
I never really gave much thought as to where the term "Great Britain" derived from, i always thought, like Blackleaf,it was an English Invention used after the union,mainly to give the impression that we are all one now.But now, I am much the wiser!

Dave dear, I am not a "whatever" thank you,and I only reveal myself in public for a hefty fee! However as i don't wish to be brought down to this level,I suggest that You and BA, hug and make up.
what say you sir? Very Happy

Runaway Weegie

Sorry, I phrased that clumsily. The meaning of *Kwritenja as 'the tattooed ones' is conjectural. What I meant was:
In *Kwritenja it may be a reference to tattooing or body painting, so the name would originally have meant "the tattooed ones" or "the painted ones".

The derivation and etymology are given in Chapter 3 of The Celtic Languages edited by Martin Ball and James Fife - 'Insular Celtic: P and Q Celtic' by Karl Horst Schmidt. The conjecture that the 'form' or 'shape' referred to tattooing or body painting comes from Kenneth Jackson's Language and History in Early Britain. Jackson noted that Classical writers mention body painting (or tattooing) being practised by late Iron Age Britons. Of course *kwritu- could be a reference to some other 'shape' or 'form'. Alternatively it's possible that the word had an additional meaning in older Celtic that has since been lost, and *Kwritenja meant something else entirely.

The explanation of the Latin confusion of Celtic p t k before r and l with Latin b d g comes from Russell's Introduction to Celtic Languages.

The stuff in my posting about the words Britain and Brittany in English comes from trawling through the relevant entries in the full 28 volume version of the Oxford English Dictionary. I've got it on CD-Rom, it's geek heaven. I've already looked up all the swearie words.

The literature on the history and development of English is vast. There are a lot of excellent published sources on Celtic languages, but the reliable ones tend to be technical linguistics works. Popular works on ancient Celtic can range from the sober and sensible to the outright insane. Online it is especially difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff.

Here's a few books, some assume the reader has a background in linguistic theory.

An Introduction to the Celtic Languages, Paul Russell, Longman's Linguistic Library, 1995
Some of its chapters are rather technical. But if ever you want to explain, at great length, why it is exactly that Celtic languages do that weirdo consonant mutation thing, this is the book for you.

Language & History in Early Britain, Kenneth Jackson. Edinburgh University 1953
A bit dated, but still the essential work on P-Celtic and the Brittonic of Romano-British times and the Dark Ages.

The Celtic Languages, Martin Ball & James Fife ed. Routledge Family Language Descriptions, 2002
A good introduction to Celtic languages for those some knowledge of linguistic theory.

Cambridge Encyclopedia of the World's Ancient Languages, Roger D. Woodward, Cambridge University Press, 2004
Has a good chapter on Gaulish and Celtiberian.

Languages of Britain and Ireland, Glanville Price, Wiley-Blackwell, 2000
A good introduction to Celtic languages for the general reader. Also covers all the non-Celtic languages of the British Isles.

Runaway Weegie

Basic errors? pshaw bah humbug etc etc

Linguists do language, and give language-internal explanations.

I admit my Breton is rubbish though.

agentmancuso

Jimbo

Hi Runaway Weegie,

thanks for the info.

I'll check out the availability of some of the titles you provide.

Linguistics is not a strong point with me. I prefer reading history, though I have to say, your post has aroused my curiosity.

I had a feeling your post would be of interest to Agent, I think you're talking his language with linguistics.

Blackadder

The Jackson book is standard fare for any research, as is the Cambridge Encyclopedia.

Russell is pedantic and dour ... like some posters on this forum!

Ball and Fife are a lively pair but don't expect too much. It's more of a taster.

I have the Glanville-Price book, which has 19 sections covering a different tongue, extinct or existing. Usually about 10 pages are spent per language. There are plenty of maps, for use in placing the exact distribution of whatever language you are reading about. Also, there are decent bibliographies at the end of each article, providing reference sources you could go to for further research. He tells you enough to whet your appetite and then tells you where to read more ... while also including a little about Flemish surviving as a spoken tongue in some parts of Wales, due to some Flemish knights settling there in the Middle Ages, and the articles about lesser-known Celtic tongues which survived almost to the present. A good book if you're starting out on linguistics.

Interesting books ... but there is better out there ... I suggest ...
Celtic Linguistics 1700-1850 (Logos Studies of Language and Linguistics) )
by Daniel Davis. It's a good book if you want to immerse yourself!

Dave Coull

Blackadder

I am not and never have been accused of Racism in my life ... and I'm not about to be so now!

I used the nickname "Coolie-boy" as a play on a name ... and you are well aware of that, Mister Coull!

Neither was I being offensive, since there are many more people on this forum could accuse me of that far more than you can ... but they won't because they quickly took measure of my sense of humour ... as does alleged husband-murderer Carol ... and they obviously don't mind!

Therefore the problem as I said before, is entirely of your own making!

As you said to BG ... live with it!!

Personally, I think you are much too old to be let loose on a computer with your unflattering single-minded unwillingness to entertain anything other than your own unwise opinions which you inflict on others!

And I won't retract a single word until you retract those accusations of racism and offensiveness and calling me a coward!

On the other hand, to other posters, I apologise for this carry-on ... but as you can see, I'm not going to stand by and see my character blackened to look as bad as my unfortunate ancestors of the Blackadder lineage!

Runaway Weegie

Scribe in inscribe, describe etc doesn't have any connections to the Indoeuropean *kwHr- (the t plus vowel part is a derivational suffix). In the online Indoeuropean databases, reflexes of the root are only given for the Indo-Iranian, Celtic, Baltic and Slavonic branches of Indoeuropean so I imagine it didn't survive into Italic. According to Lewis and Short's Latin dictionary, scribe comes from an Indoeuropean *skrabho meaning 'to scratch'. (Lewis and Short is an old text, and the Indoeuropean reconstructions are very outdated.) Scribe might have a connection with English scrape, but that's just a suggestion, I don't know. If you trawl through some of the resources I list below, you should be able to find out.

Philosophers may well say all explanations are language internal. I don't do philosophy either I'm afraid. But give me phonetic evolution and language contact theory and I'm a happy wee bunny. I suppose by language external I meant more "events dear boy, events".

Blackadder - can I call you Bladder? - I was trying to give Jimbo sources which are somewhat more accessible. If you want the real meaty stuff in Celtic linguistics, you read the linguistics journals, but they're not exactly easily accessible to the general reader. Usually an interested general reader turns first to archaeology resources for ancient Celtic information. But while archaeologists are good on the spread and development of cultural complexes, they're mince at linguistic stuff. And as for other sources the general reader is likely to turn to for an introduction to the topic, well just don't start me on Stephen sodding Oppenheimer.

I got my copy of Jackson's book in a Glasgow Library sale back in the 1970s, the best 25p I've ever spent! I have an older version of the Glanville Price book, he was terribly sniffy about revived Cornish. Mind you, he had reason, but he did go on a bit. I'd love a copy of the Daniel Davis book you mention, but at US$3300 it's a wee bit out of my price league. Wanna give me a loan of it? You'll get it back, honest. After you've wrested it from my cold dead hands anyway.

In the meantime here is a small selection of free online resources for cheap folk like me.

Indoeuropean, Latin & Greek

http://www.indo-european.nl/ The Leiden University Indoeuropean Etymological Dictionary
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/index.html Early Indo-European Online
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/PokornyMaster-R.html Pokorny's Indo-European Lexicon
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/ The Perseus Digital Library, online editions of primary and secondary sources for Latin and Greek including etymological dictionaries of Latin and Greek.

Germanic
http://www.northvegr.org/language.php Tons of stuff about older Germanic languages.

Ancient Celtic & Roman Britain

http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/ogam/frame.htm A database of Ogam inscriptions, hours of fun.
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/archaeology/cisp/database/index/site_alpha.html The Celtic Inscribed Stones Project. Gives a good analysis of each inscription, lists disputed readings. You never knew rocks could be so interesting.
http://indoeuro.bizland.com/project/glossary/gaul.html A glossary of Gaulish
http://curses.csad.ox.ac.uk/index.shtml Latin curse tablets from Roman Britain, includes a section on 'Cursing for beginners' - but you lot are Scottish, so you're already advanced students.
http://www.roman-britain.org/ Best introductory site for everything related to Roman Britain
http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/vortigernhomepage.htm Vortigern Studies Index, excellent place to start looking for information about Britain in the Dark Ages
http://www.heroicage.org/ The Heroic Age. Not as butch as it sounds, an online peer reviewed journal focussing on north-west Europe from the 4th to the 13th century.
http://eprints.gla.ac.uk/2081/01/languagepictland.pdf full text of Katherine Forsyth's Language in Pictland

Gaelic, Scots, and English

http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cel/sco/macbain.txt MacBain's Etymological Dictionary of the Gaelic Language A bit dated, but still extremely useful
http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/ Dictionary of the Scots Language, full online editions of the 10 volume Scottish National Dictionary and the 12 volume Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue. Pure dead brilliant.
http://www.etymonline.com/ Etymology of modern English words. Based on the OED and other reputable sources.

Place Names

http://www.spns.org.uk/ Scottish Place Names Society, loads of online resources.
http://www.archive.org/details/dictionaryofplac00blac The full text of Blackie and Stuart's 1887 etymological dictionary of British place names. Seriously out of date, but it's still a fascinating book to browse through.

Blackadder

Squeegee ... call me whatever you like ... just call me! Very Happy

(Mae West quote!)

But no ... I never lend books anymore. Lost a few that way before I learned my lesson. Try eBay ... it's amazing what comes up there. And Amazon.co.uk does a 2nd hand book service which is very good! Failing that, if your local library doesn't have a copy, they can order it in for you.

Plus I'm not going anywhere near your cold, dead body! I'm allergic to Death!!! Twisted Evil

Good series of links you give though. Anyone interested enough could use them and come up with their own ideas after research, and join in with the lively debate! Very Happy

Dave Coull

Runaway Weegie

I don't loan out expensive books either. You rarely see them again.

I think the librarian at my local library here in Spain would laugh hysterically if I asked her to order a 3000 dollar book textbook of Celtic languages which is written in English. Mind you Amazon has second hand copies, a snip at 2000 dollars.

A few years ago, I bid 600 quid on a copy of Lhuyd's Archaeologica Brittanica which came up on eBay. I got outbid. So I bought a museum quality reproduction Homo erectus skull instead. (As you do.) It scares the bejeezuz out of the weans at Halloween. Worth every penny.

Jimbo

Hi Runaway Weegie,

thanks for the further info.

Since it was recommended by both yourself and Blackadder, I went for Languages of Britain and Ireland, and managed to track one down at a reasonable price.

Hi BA,

thanks for the recommendations.

Celtic Linguistics 1700-1850 (Logos Studies of Language and Linguistics) )
by Daniel Davis comes in at a cost of £1,491.00. I reckon I'll be visiting my local library for that one. Don't know if they'll be happy to lend such an expensive book though.

Blackadder

The arse I call Coolio wrote:

Blackadder

Nae probs, Jimboneheid! Very Happy

Always glad to help a fellow poster ... as is Squeegee too I think! Enjoy!

Just don't ask for my copy ... I'll set the dogs on you before you get through the entry gates of my land! Twisted Evil

Dave Coull

Blackadder

Okay ... here he goes again ...

agentmancuso

Dave Coull

Blackadder

Dave Coull

mairead

Dave,
Mairead IS my real name by the way, it is Gaelic for Margaret and I am known by both the English and the Gaelic.
As for inferring that those who have a user name are cowards, that's about the most ridiculous and stupid thing I ever heard but it seems to be something you go on about on every thread.
Last time I looked it was a free country and people can call themselves by any name they choose.
if Blackadder's reference to you as 'Coolio' offends you, I think you need to develop a sense of humour.
Perhaps a few weeks checking into the Banter forum would help you to chill out a bit, or are you too much of a coward yourself to do that?
I also notice that everything you post develops into an argument. Do you think it is just possible that someone other than you might on occasion be correct in their opinion?

Blackadder

As the person who started this thread, the topic is whatever I say it is. There's no rule says I can't play it my way. And whoever weighs in with valid arguments is welcome. As it should be.

I made light of a certain individual who has his point but will not budge from it. His opinion has been disproved by others, not just by me. The fault is his to stick with it. The rest of us will move on.

The problem is this individual cannot take a joke, and began to use words that one could only class as provocative and unwise. Perhaps it's because he's a leftover from a distant era and is unable to appreciate the banter aspect of the Internet, and the way younger people can debate serious topics and still have a laugh! I doubt he'd appreciate Horrible Histories either ... which are a lot of fun!

I think, having now heard from and seen others weigh in with similar opinions of the man, we should just continue ... and ignore him! I got an email suggesting I ask that he be banned ... but I hold no truck with that. I want my enemies where I can see them!!! Very Happy

(That was a joke btw!)

After this post, it would be good to return to some normality on the topic with reasonable posters, without referring to the unpleasant old git anymore.

Cheers peasants!
Lord Edmund Blackadder XIV

Blackadder

So ... what's in a name? The origin of Britain ... since we now know where the term "great" came from. And yes ... we've moved on from the aberration of the French influence.

It's interesting that the words "Cruithne", "Kritenoi" and the tribal name of the "Coritani" pop up the length and breadth of the country, as well as in Ireland. All of them are obviously based on the same root-word. Recently there's been a move to see the Coritani as a loose confederation rather than a single tribe ... and rename them the Corieltavi or Corieltaui ... which actually mirrors the northern Criuthentuath.

The "P" Celts like the Trinovantes, Cantiaci, Catuvellaunii and the Belgae came along later ... and they modified "Kritanoi" into "Pretanoi" and later "Prydain" from which the Greeks and Romans transformed into Britain and Britannia.

So what was the original "Q" Celt name? That's the fascinating bit of research needs to be done. And how about the pre-Celtic name? There are still elements of the pre-Celt names in the land and rivers of Britain.

This is what begs the question "What's In A Name?" ... and what it means for us!

BTW ... do yourself a favour and look at EBK's maps of Early Britain. Probably not completely correct ... but fascinating ...

carol

Sir BA

Unfortunately this pupil isn't read up in this area, and yes some of the stuff is above my head. Regardless I do know a topologist by the name of Dr Simon Taylor Wink

a great guy btw.

Dave Coull

Well, I tried.

I really did try to just quietly let this drop.

But I'm not being allowed to do so.

Jimbo

Hi BA,

Blackadder

http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/index.html

There you go, Jimboneheid. Never say Blackadder (or Slack-bladder as I have been called many times Laughing

) was never prepared to assist in your research. It's a great site if you're just starting to learn anything about post-Roman Britain ...

And also the background to the REAL story of Arthur, whoever he was. Merlin too ... rather than that bloody awful travesty of a programme the BBC are showing on Saturdays right now. If they hadn't called it Merlin, and didn't use any of the Arthurian references, I'd've been happy with it as a medieaval fantasy. But no ... all they've done is muddy up some already murky water even further! The Beeb want a slapping for this muck!!!

Anyway ... get tore intae it!!! Very Happy

carol

interesting site BA, I'd googled it earlier, I never knew it existed.

Another site for maps is the NLS, although I think they start from the early 1500's. It's surprising how the place names change over the years, even over a century or so. http://www.nls.uk/maps/ some of my favourite ones were produced by John Adair.

Dave Coull

The poster using the name Blackadder claimed my opinion on the name Great Britain "had been disproved by others".

That's not true.

What is true is what Runaway Weegie said, that the name "is Celtic, and Latin, and French. Everyone is right and we can all be happy. Except Blackleaf, because it's definitely not English".

Runaway Weegie

Ah thanks for including the link to the Early British Kingdoms site, it's a great resource. Lots of great maps. I had forgotten to include it in the list of links I gave earlier.

I'd be interested in your sources for the derivation of Coritani and *Kwritenja from the same root. The phonetics create immense difficulties. The references I've seen say that Coritani (the name of a tribe in what is now the East Midlands of England) is a corrupt manuscript reading and the correct name was Corieltavi. This was established in the 1980s when inscriptional evidence was discovered by archaeologists. An article by Andrew Breeze in The Antiquaries Journal in 2002 derived Corieltavi from "The army of many rivers". The RIB (Roman Inscriptions in Britain) lists a different tribe from Northumberland called the Corionototae. Totae here is the Celtic *toutas 'people' seen in Irish tuath. Proto-Celtic *korjo is a fairly common element in older Celtic names in Britain. It meant 'army, host' and is a well established Indoeuropean root, cognate with Germanic *harjoz (Old English here, modern German heer 'army'), and Old Prussian karjis.

Linguists are on more certain ground with phonetics and grammatical endings than with meanings, which is why they waffle on at such length about dry as bones stuff that bores normal people rigid. When people ask for the origin of a name, they want the original meaning of the name. When we're dealing with a name as ancient as *Kwritenja/Priteni/Cruithen/Britain, saying what it originally meant is basically a matter of locating a form with the correct phonetic shape, and which has a plausible meaning. Sometimes there are several possibilities to choose from and it's only where there's additional evidence that a definite choice can be made between them.

The meaning of *Kwritenja as 'the tattooed ones' was the favourite derivation of Prof. Kenneth Jackson. Jackson did his work in the 1950s, but understanding of proto-Celtic has advanced since then. A more recent compilation of proto-Celtic gives *kwritjo 'poet', *kwrito 'poetry', *kwríto 'expensive', *kwritu 'form'. (see http://www.spns.org.uk/ProtoCelt.pdf ) *Kwritenja could derive from any one of these without any great phonetic difficulties. A case could be made for 'the tattooed/painted ones', 'the poetic ones', 'those famous in poetry', 'the costly ones' in the sense 'expensive to conquer', or 'those who are costly to their enemies' perhaps. Doubtless there are other possibilities. Unfortunately there isn't any additional evidence which allows the original meaning of the name *Kwritenja to be pinned down any further. The real answer is lost in time and will probably never be known.

'The Poetic Ones' has a nice ring to it though.

Blackadder

Here's a list of some of the major Celtic tribes. I know it's the Romanised names ... but there's not a lot else to go on ... unless you apply whatever limited knowledge of pre-Roman Celtic language you know ... and try to translate the names into a "P" or "Q" version of what they could be. It's fun ... so go on ... have a go ...

Abrincatui : Acitauones : Aduatuci : Aedui : Agessinates : Albici : Allobroges : Ambarri : Ambiani : Ambibarii : Ambilatri : Ambiuareti : Anagnutes : Andecavi : Andes : Antobroges : Arecomici/Volcae : Arecomici : Articlaui : Atuatuci : Aruerni/Arverni : Aruii : Atacini : Atasgoduni : Atrebates (Belgica) ; Atrebates (Britanica) ; Aulerci ; Aulerci Brannouices ; Aulerci Cenomani ; Aulerci Diablintes ; Aulerci Eburouices ; Aureliani ; Ausci

Baiocasses/Badiocasses ; Bantianae : Basaboiates/Uasates/Uocates ; Bautae ; Belendi Gironde ; Bellovaci ; Bercorates ; Bigerriones/Begerri ; Belgae ; Bituriges/Cubi ; Bituriges/Uiuisci ; Boates ; Bodiocasses ; Boii ; Bouiates / Boiates ; Brannouices ; Brigiani/Brigantes ; Britanni ; Briuates ; Bucconae

Cadurci ; Caletes ; Cambolectri Agessinates ; Cambolectri Atlantici ; Camponi ; Canti ; Carnutes ; Carvtii/Caruetii ; Castulo ; Caturiges ; Catuslugi ; Catuuellauni/Catuvellauni ; Cenomani ; Ceretani ; Cersiaci ; Ceutrones ; Cocosates Sexsignani ; Condeates ; Consoranni ; Couenae ; Coriosolitae/Coriosopites/Coriosultes/Coriosolites ; Corieltaui/Corieltavii ; Coritani ; Cotini ; Couaroi

Datii ; Dexiuates ; Diablintes ; Dobunni/Bodunni ; Durocasi ; Durotriges

Eburiates ; Eburouices ; Eleuteti ; Elusates ; Esuuii

Gabali/Gabales ; Gabalitani ; Gaballi ; Gallitae ; Garumni Lactorates/Lassuni/Latobici ; Gates/Garites/Gabites ; Geidumni ; Glanici ; Graiocell : Helvetii/Heluetii/Eluetii

Iceni ; Insubres

Lucteri Cadurci ; Luteuani ; Lemouices ; Leuaci ; Leuci ; Lexouii ; Lemovices ; Lingones ; Ligurians ; Lingones ; Longostaletes

Mandubii : Mediomatrici ; Medulli : Meldi ; Menapii : Morini

Nitiobroges ; Namnates/Samnitae ; Nantuates ; Narbonnaise ; Nemaloni ; Nematuri ; Nemes ; Nemesii ; Nervii/Neruii

Oltenia ; Onesi/Monesi ; Onobrisates ; Oscidates ; Osismii/Ostiones

Parisii ; Petrocorii ; Pictaui ; Pictones ; Pinpedunni ; Pleumoxii ; Preciani ; Ptianii

Rauraci ; Redones/Redonae ; Regni ; Remi ; Rotomagi ; Ruteni

Saii ; Santones/Santoni ; Sebaginni ; Sediobouiates ; Sedunni ; Segobrigi ; Segouellauni ; Segusiaui ; Senates/Sennates ; Senones ; Sequani ; Sesuii ; Sibusates/Sibylates ; Sigesterii ; Siluanectes/Sulbanectes ; Sogioni/Sogionti ; Sordones ;
Sotiates ; Sucassae ; Suessiones ; Sueuconi ; Tarbelli Quattuorsignani ; Taurisci/Tarusates ; Tasconi ; Tectosages ; Tolosates ; Tornates ; Treveri ; Triboci/Treboci ; Tricasi/Tricasini/Tricasines ; Tricastini ; Tricorii/Tricores ; Trinouantes/Trinovantes ; Tritolli ; Triulatti/Triulacti ; Turones/Turonii

Uadicasi ; Uassei ; Ucenni ; Ueliocasses ; Uellates/Suellates ; Uellaui ; Uellaui ; Ueliocasses ; Uellauni ; Uenami/Uenarni ; Ueneti ; Uertamocorii ; Uesunnici ; Uiducasses ; Uiromandui/Ueromandui ; Umbranici ; Unelli/Uenelli ; Uocontii ; Urinci ;

Veliocasses ; Vendelici ; Veneti ; Vocontii ; Volcae Tectosages

It's not an exhaustive list ... but many of these tribes gave their names to the regions they inhabited. Can anyone spot them? And yes, it IS all to do with What's In A Name?

kathyv

Blacky, that list is fascinating. And yes, I did spot some.

Blackadder

Good for you, Kaffy. Soon you'll be the only American WITH half a brain on the planet! Twisted Evil

How about matching up those names with the modern counterparts? There's no point saying you spotted some without showing us.

For instance, everyone knows (or should know) that the capital of France is named after the Celtic tribe that lived in that region ... the Parisii. Previously named Lutetia, the name had already been used for centuries as an adjective ("Parisiacus"). It became Paris (allegedly) around 212ce.

Runaway Weegie

Quite a few of those names can be etymologised without any great difficulties. D Lewis Evans' 'Gaulish Personal Names' is a major survey of Celtic names. I think he spent decades working on it. If you thought Paul Russell was dry and pedantic you've never read Lewis Evans. I'll just look at a few names, because life is too short and you're not paying me a research grant.

The Canti gave their name to modern Kent. Celtic offers us several plausible explanations for the name, unfortunately we can't choose between them. Kanto- edge, kanta- hundred, kant- enclosure, have all been suggested.

Tricorii is "of the three armies", and Petrocorii is Gaulish for "of the four armies". You can tell it's P-Celtic, the P in the name is a wee clue. (kw > p is a trivial sound change, of a type linguists call non-systemic. It occurred fairly late in Celtic, long after Celtic had dispersed across Europe. Its importance for subgrouping Celtic languages is overstated.)

Menapii gives the place names Isle of Man, and the Welsh name for Anglesey, Ynys Môn. It's usually connected with a Celtic deity whose name also occurs in the Scottish place name Clackmannan. The -apii part has been explained as meaning 'of the waters', or as a grammatical ending.

Names which start with Duro- contain a Celtic word which meant oppidum (a hill fort), or 'fortified place'. There are quite a few duro- names in southern England. Some scholars think duro- names are associated with Belgic settlement.

The Boii gave their name to Bohemia. The name means 'those of the cattle', the original Czech Celtic cowboys. (Scottish Gaelic bo means cow.)

The Veneti give their name to the modern Breton city of Vannes. The first syllable may be connected with Irish fine 'kin group' which was *wenja in older Celtic. This name is not connected with Venice, which comes from the ancient Venetic people who were not Celtic speakers. The Ligurians might not have been Celtic speakers either.

Names beginning with Ebur- probably contain Celtic *eburo 'yew tree'. Believe it or not, this is what lies behind the modern name York, which was Eboracum in Latin, representing a Brittonic *Eburakon. The first syllable had evolved into *evor- by Anglosaxon times and the name was borrowed into Old English as Eoforwic, the -wic is an Old English word for settlement (itself borrowed from Latin vicus, but that's by the by). Old English Eoforwic was borrowed by the Vikings as Jórvik which was in turn borrowed back into Middle English as York.

One name which remains mysterious is Scot. Gaelic speakers never used it as a term of self-reference. It first appears in Late Roman times as the name of barbarian raiders from Ireland who were attacking Roman Britain. In Latin, Scotti later became the usual word for the Irish. Attempts have been made to relate it to an Old Irish word meaning pirate or raider, but no such Old Irish word has ever been securely identified. Some Scottish Gaelic dictionaries list a word 'sguit' which would regularly descend from an archaic Irish scotti, but McBain's etymological Gaelic dictionary casts doubt on this

Blackadder

You're right. I'm not paying you a research grant. Apply to the Blackadder Academy for Science, Technology and Research & Development. The acronym will give you a laugh ... but you'll still be as poor as a church mouse. Very Happy

Good work on what you've done. The 33 post-Roman cities of Britain (according to Nennius) are easier ...

Nennius tells us ... taken from the Southwest point it inclines a little towards the west, and to its northern extremity measures eight hundred miles, and is in breadth two hundred. It contains thirty-three cities ....

1. Caer Ebrauc
2. Caer Ceint
3. Caer Guroc
4. Caer Guorthegern
5. Caer Custeint
6. Caer Guoranegon
7. Caer Segeint
8. Caer Guin Truis
9. Caer Merdin
10. Caer Peris
11. Caer Lion
12. Caer Mencipit
13. Caer Caratauc
14. Caer Ceri
15. Caer Gloui
16. Caer Luilid
17. Caer Grant
18. Caer Daun or Caer Dauri
19. Caer Britoc
20. Caer Meguaid
21. Caer Mauiguid
22. Caer Ligion
23. Caer Guent
24. Caer Collon
25. Caer Londein
26. Caer Guorcon
27. Caer Lerion
28. Caer Draithou
29. Caer Pensavelcoit
30. Caer Teim
31. Caer Urnahc
32. Caer Celemion
33. Caer Loit Coit

Here's your starter for 10 ... can anyone (apart from Squeegee) match these up to their Roman or Modern equivalents??

Holebender

I think No.21 might be Manchester.

Blackadder

Very good, Holyblender! How did you work that out? *walks away whistling! * Rolling Eyes

Holebender

Runaway Weegie

So everyone apart from me then?

[sulks]

Well just to add to the proceedings, here are the meanings of the names of some Scottish towns, cities and districts. Maybe people can try and guess what they are

Speckled Church
Green Hollow
Fort of the Britons
Fort on the Slope
The Thicket
The Tents
Mouth of the River of the Mother Goddess
Foreign Gaels
The Clearing/Glade
The Coast of the Gaels
New Ireland
Meeting of the Streams
The Church of My Dear St. Earnan
Fort at the End of the Hillock
Daig's Fort (or possibly God's Fort)
The Basilica
Lake of the Moist/Grey Hollow
The Little Bay

Jimbo

Ok BA,

here goes. You can correct the mistakes.

1. Caer Ebrauc - York
2. Caer Ceint - Canterbury
3. Caer Guroc - ?
4. Caer Guorthegern - ?
5. Caer Custeint - Carnarvon
6. Caer Guoranegon - Worcester
7. Caer Segeint - Silchester?
8. Caer Guin Truis - Norwich
9. Caer Merdin - Carmarthen
10. Caer Peris - Porchester?
11. Caer Lion - Caerleon?
12. Caer Mencipit - St. Albans
13. Caer Caratauc - Catterick
14. Caer Ceri - Cirencester
15. Caer Gloui - Gloucester
16. Caer Luilid - Carlisle
17. Caer Grant - Cambridge?
18. Caer Daun or Caer Dauri - Doncaster
19. Caer Britoc - Bristol
20. Caer Meguaid - ?
21. Caer Mauiguid - Manchester
22. Caer Ligion - Chester
23. Caer Guent - Winchester
24. Caer Collon - Colchester
25. Caer Londein - London
26. Caer Guorcon - Worren, Pembrokeshire?
27. Caer Lerion - Leicester
28. Caer Draithou - Drayton?
29. Caer Pensavelcoit - Pevensey
30. Caer Teim - Cardiff?
31. Caer Urnahc - Dorchester?
32. Caer Celemion - Camalet, Somerset?
33. Caer Loit Coit - Lincoln

kathyv · Giving it a whirl . . .

Belgae . . . Belgium

Britanni . . . Britain or Brittany?

Camponi Canti Coritani Cotini . . . seem Italian, were the Celts in Italy?

Eburiates Eburouices Northern England? York?

Helvetii Switzerland

Iceni . . . Norfolk

Lingones Lingones France?

Parisii . . . Paris

Pictaui Pictones . . . Scotland, north of the Wall before the Wall?

Taurisci . . . Austria area

Umbranici . . . Umbria

Volcae Tectosages . . . Macedonia

It's a try anyway, these are the ones that seemed familiar.

Jimbo

Hi Runaway Weegie,

I'll give this a go. You do the corrections.

Speckled Church - Falkirk
Green Hollow - Glasgow
Fort of the Britons - Dumbarton
Fort on the Slope - ?
The Thicket - Carddenden?
The Tents - Peebles
Mouth of the River of the Mother Goddess - Inverclyde?
Foreign Gaels - Galloway
The Clearing/Glade - Lanark
The Coast of the Gaels - Argyll
New Ireland - Atholl
Meeting of the Streams - Cumnock?
The Church of My Dear St. Earnan - Kilearnan?
Fort at the End of the Hillock - Edinburgh?
Daig's Fort (or possibly God's Fort) Dundee
The Basilica - Paisley
Lake of the Moist/Grey Hollow - Linlithgow
The Little Bay - Oban

Runaway Weegie

Well done you Jimbo. These were the only ones you didn't get.

Fort on the Slope - is Edinburgh, from Brittonic Din Eityn or Din Eidyn. The meaning 'slope' for eidyn remains disputed.
The Thicket - Perth, from Brittonic or Pictish Perth
Mouth of the River of the Mother Goddess - is Aberdeen, if the river name Don comes from Celtic Devona
Meeting of the Streams - Cumbernauld, from Gaelic Comar nan Allt
The Church of My Dear St. Earnan - Kilmarnock, Gaelic Cill Mo Earnog
Fort at the End of the Hillock - Kirkintilloch, from the Gaelic Cathair Ceann Tullaich, which itself was a translation of an earlier Brittonic Caer Pen Tallog

From Blackadder's list, you got them all except

Cair gurcoc is thought to be on the Isle of Anglesey.
The location of Cair guorthegern is disputed, but the name is connected with the name Vortigern, who according to legend invited the Anglosaxons into Britain. Vortigern might not have been a name, it meant 'high lord' or 'over lord' and could have been a title. Some think Cair guorthegern was the hill fort at Little Doward in Herefordshire.
Cair meguaid is identified with the village of Meifod in Powys.
Camalet in Somerset is the older name of the villages nowadays known as West Camel and Queen Camel.
Some sources give Wroxeter for Cair Urnahc

So I reckon you deserve a prize. Demand Bladder gives you something from his wine cellar. And insist it's not Buckfast.

It was place names which sparked off my fascination for language and linguistics. When I was a wean I discovered that all the nonsensical sounding place names around me actually meant something in other languages, languages that people living in the Clyde Valley used to speak. It taught me that words have stories to tell, you just need to learn how to listen. Over 40 years on and I'm still fascinated.

Blackadder

Pfft! No-one from THIS Forum's getting a SIP of my wine, Squeegee! What the hell do you think I am ... some kind of philanthropist?? (And no Carol, that doesn't mean I collect stamps!) Evil or Very Mad

I wan't including you out of having a go at the lists, Squeegee ... but you appear to be very good at linguistics and etymology. You have to be fair to those who aren't cos you'd just overwhelm them ... I was trying to encourage others ... and it did help. Especially since all of the answers are available by googling these days. The sum of human all knowledge appears to be there.

Anyway, before I bore you all to death ... here's the list of Nennius cities with their modern equivalents. You have to remember that a "city" back then was not much more than a village or small town to us ...

1. Cair ebrauc (York)
2. Cair ceint (Canterbury)
3. Cair gurcoc (Anglesey?)
4. Cair guorthegern (unknown)
5. Cair custeint (Carnarvon)
6. Cair guoranegon (Worcester)
7. Cair segeint (Silchester)
8. Cair guin truis (Norwich, or Winwick)
9. Cair merdin (Caermarthen)
10. Cair peris (Porchester)
11. Cair lion (Caerleon-upon-Usk)
12. Cair mencipit (Verulam)
13. Cair caratauc (Catterick)
14. Cair ceri (Cirenchester)
15. Cair gloui (Gloucester)
16. Cair luilid (Carlisle)
17. Cair grant (Grantchester, now Cambridge)
18. Cair daun (Doncaster), or Cair dauri (Dorchester)
19. Cair britoc (Bristol)
20. Cair meguaid (Meivod)
21. Cair mauiguid (Manchester)
22. Cair ligion (Chester)
23. Cair guent (Winchester, or Caerwent in Monmouthshire)
24. Cair collon (Colchester, or St. Colon in Cornwall)
25. Cair londein (London)
26. Cair guorcon (Worren, or Woran, in Pembrokeshire)
27. Cair lerion (Leicester)
28. Cair draithou (Drayton)
29. Cair pensavelcoit (Pevensey, in Sussex)
30. Cair teim (Teyn-Grace, in Devonshire)
31. Cair Urnahc (Wroxeter, in Shropshire)
32. Cair celemion (Camalet, in Somersetshire)
33. Cair loit coit (Lincoln)

And to Kaffy and Jimboneheid ... well done for even just attempting it! You both did very well. Buy a gold star and stick it on your foreheads! Twisted Evil

You're spot on, Squeegee ... the discovery of the meanings behind names is one of the most fantastic things you could get into. It's a hugely fascinating area of study ...

For instance, you could research what your own name is translated into in other languages and use it online as a different ID. John, for instance has variations all over the place and surnames are usually place/occupation and personal names. John Fletcher could be Giovanni Arrowmaker.

So, what's in a name?? A whole 'nother dimension apparently! Very Happy

Holebender

So it was Manchester! Do I get a gold star too?

btw, Weegie, Aberdeen is generally reckoned to be named for the Den Burn which runs through the west end of the city and empties into the harbour (although the last mile or so of its journey is now through Victorian culverts). The original Aberdeen was a fishing village at the mouth of this burn. Mind you, Old Aberdeen (the university town) did grow on the banks of the Don so there is good reason for thinking Aberdeen grew from the merger of two original Aberdeens, an Aberden and an Aberdon.

Runaway Weegie

You could well be right Holebender. One of the difficulties with the name Aberdeen is that while aber clearly refers to a river mouth or confluence (aber in Welsh), there are a number of rivers or streams in the Aberdeen area which could plausibly be the second part of the name, the Don, the Dee, and the Den.

With placenames you are dependent upon the earliest attestations. Often the generic (aber- in this case) is clear, and sometimes variant spellings give a clue as to what the specifier (-deen) means. The Gaelic version of the name, Obar Dheathain, suggests the second element originally had two syllables, as did the original Pictish version of the river name Don. The earliest attestations call the city Aberdon. That's why the traditional derivation favoured the Don. But so much of this is guesswork. A derivation from Aber Den certainly causes less phonetic difficulties.

Very often, you can't say what a name means exactly. I grew up very near to Barrachnie in the East End of Glasgow, and the name has bugged me for years. It's first attested as Barrachnie on a 16th century map, and there are no earlier mentions. It's just down the road from Barlanark, which is certainly Cumbric and which also contains the same barr element. (Barr Llanerch - Hilltop of the glade). However barr is also a Gaelic word, and we can only say if a Bar- name is Cumbric or Gaelic by looking at the second element.

To confuse things further, in many Lowland names Bar- can also be a corruption of Gaelic baile meaning farm. Nearby Bargeddie was first attested as Balgaddeis and is usually derived from Gaelic Baile Geide "Arable Farm"

So all that can be said about the name Barrachnie is that it is probably Gaelic, although it could be Cumbric, and the first element is either barr "hilltop" or "baile" farm. The meaning of the second part is anyone's guess. But even though the meanings of names can be unclear, they still tells us something about the past.

Holebender

Indeed, the Dee is another candidate for lending its name to Aberdeen. Originally the Dee and the Den met up in a sort of marshy delta called the Inches. (I imagine Craiginches Prison got its name as it sits on a rocky outcrop which would have overlooked the Inches.) The Inches have completely disappeared now as our ancestors dredged some of the area to make the harbour, and filled in the rest for the railway line and station. The Den Burn disappears under Rosemount Viaduct and follows the line of the Aberdeen to Inverness railway (which was built over the top of it) until it reaches the sea via the harbour.

Blackadder

Good to see this thread moving at last. Especially as it concerns the roots of our language and original meanings. Well done to everybody .... Very Happy

Holebender

I suppose that'll have to do in place of a personal gold star.

Blackadder

Not at all, Holyblender! Have a gold star tattooed on your forehead and tell everyone you were awarded it for being a smartarse! If they know you, they'll believe you! Twisted Evil

Babygael

In Scots gaelic,baile means town.

What's in a Name?

Re: What's in a Name?

Giving it a whirl . . .