| Archive for Our Scotland - www.our-scotland.org Scottish Politics Discussion Forum / Messageboard - Dedicated to online discussion about Scottish Politics and an Independent Scotland, as well as Scottish Society today. We also have a section dedicated to Banter, Sport and Recommended Sites. |
| Corby Boy |
What will happen to Ulster when Scotland leaves UKOne for you Congal (and Parkhead). I have read some pretty interesting comments on politics.ie on this issue I would be interested in your thoughts.Many on that site seem to think that NI/Ulster/North of Ireland, will become an independent state, some even think they would wish to unite with Scotland in a new union (perish the thought) - although all seem to recognise the ties over the centuries between the two. Comments please! |
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| Congal |
Just a quick line. This does go back centuries as you say. I remember John Hume commenting on this and saying how when St Colombia was ask to settle the dispute he said those that felt allegiance towards Dalriada.....so be it. Those that felt alliegiance towards Ireland.....so be it.
There was a big conference then held....and thats what they decided. At least it held for many years. Maybe something similar will happen again. Lets face it the island was only really 'united' as one adminstration under English/British rule. The concept may have been there,and the U.I. pushed this concept. It was them really brought it to the fore. Many of them Presbyterians.....sorry to say  It is a complacated business to say the least
I have to nip out now. But will give it some thought. I think with republicans----its all or nothing with them.. I don't think they are up for comprise. So thats a big stumbling block. |
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| Corby Boy |
The thing that has got up my nose a bit over the years is the hijacking by the loyalist community of the Scottish connection. Many catholics in the northern part of the island are of Scottish descent from plantation and further back. So cannot be parcelled up so neatly.
Scottish saltire is therefore seen as synominous with the loyalist tradition. This as we see this side of the north channel is not the case with such a strong nationalist and independence movement evident. Britishness in Scotland has never been so keenly felt as in NI. The idea of irish republicans burning Scottish flags on bonfires as they see them as loyalist as a result, pisses me off as I have always been sympathetic to Irish self determination. It is my hope over time that an independent Scotland with cooperative links to both ROI and England, would provide a good conduit to bring greater understanding in NI and the island of Ireland as a whole, as we seem to understand the issues fairly clearly. |
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| Congal |
Well thats understandable.....as this is a 'Scots Nats' site. But as I said its more complex in Ulster. There are centuries of history in the conflict,even before the 'plantation'
But it is a bit ironic, that those who would support the concept of unity on one island,.......support the concept of disunity on the other. Whats in a name?.......a helluva lot it seems   As long as the name's ireland.
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| Aventinian |
Re: What will happen to Ulster when Scotland leaves UK
David Trimble suggested that once. It didn't go down all that well. |
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| Barny Rubble |
Re: What will happen to Ulster when Scotland leaves UK
 //Many on that site seem to think that NI/Ulster/North of Ireland, will become an independent state, some even think they would wish to unite with Scotland in a new union (perish the thought) - although all seem to recognise the ties over the centuries between the two.//
Eh? NI unite with Scotland? Rubbish complete and utter Rubbish! NI would be better off with Ireland if Scotland do gain independence. Anyway with Scotland's economy independence will never happen...if it does they will be relying on the EU. Somewhat like Spain not a say in the EU just picking the crumbs what the Krauts and France throw down. Ireland economy wise is much, much better...yes NI would be better off uniting with Ireland! |
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| Corby Boy |
Anyway with Scotland's economy independence will never happen...if it does they will be relying on the EU. Somewhat like Spain not a say in the EU just picking the crumbs what the Krauts and France throw down.
What planet are you on?[/quote] |
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| Barny Rubble |
//Anyway with Scotland's economy independence will never happen...if it does they will be relying on the EU. Somewhat like Spain not a say in the EU just picking the crumbs what the Krauts and France throw down.
What planet are you on?[/quote]// Planet earth..its you Scots that live on fantasy Island..Scotland's economy is running on zero. You want to ask yourself why the population of Scotland is just over 5mil. Oil and gas is running out...the UKs having to rely on Norway now for the said! |
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| Rinty |
tThis is a very wide and complicated debate. As you say Corby boy there has been a hijacking of the history of Scotland/ulster connection by certain loyalist groups. Currently the only people pushing for NI independence are a right wing loyalist group with Ulster nationalist leanings (by that I mean nationalist as in a nation of Ulster not nationalist as in Irish).As Congal says it was St Columba and the early catholic church that was the uniting force in dalriada and it was prebyterians who led the United Ireland campaign in its early days. The conflict that came about through the twentieth century became entangled in other sectarian issues and the ACTUAL history got borrowed, twisted, spun and hijacked by different groups. People forget that the early nationalist movement was a united catholic/presbyterian front against English rule, people forget that what united Ulster with argylle was catholicism and allegiance to tribal leaders and kings, people forget that Cromwell was a republican fighting against staunchly royalist catholics! My only strong position on this is that the people of NI should be the ones to decide their own future. I would like to see them do that free of sectarian influence but I cant see that happening in the short term. I think NI must have very close links with Scotland, England, Wales and Ireland and I am open to ideas on how that would happen. |
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| Congal |
True Rinty at the end of the day it is the people of Ulster[British/six county or whatever] who will decide,just as in Scotland with the devolution issue.
I think what Barney Rubble is forgetting that these things usually go beyond economics. When Ireland seceded from the Union, they did so because they wanted to. I don't think economics came into it at all for them. At that particular time with British rule, the south of the island was better of than the northern part. They were very badly off after leaving the Union,than they were before leaving it. But the point is.....they wanted out whatever the cost. Maybe times have changed somewhat and people are more of a mind.....'comforts before country'. But a love of your homeland is still a very potent force for some. Many of those African countries are perhaps worse off than they were under colonial rule.............butttt they wanted to go,at least those in charge of the masses wanted that,and the rest followed where they led. The scene 'what did the Romans do for us?'' in the Life Of Brian' movie is a good example of what I'm gittin at. |
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| Corby Boy |
[b]Planet earth..its you Scots that live on fantasy Island..Scotland's economy is running on zero. You want to ask yourself why the population of Scotland is just over 5mil. Oil and gas is running out...the UKs having to rely on Norway now for the said!
You wouldn't from Southern England any chance, Barny Rubble? This is the typical sh**e I have heard so many times from Unionists and unfortunately, English Nationalists for so long. The superiority complex I call it! The bottom line is Scotland leaving the UK would be an economic disaster for England and that's why the myth of economic destitution spun so often by the very same unionists is heard being trotted out so many times. Barny, you are out of step with up to date thinking the economic debate has been won by the independence movement, wake up and smell the roses. Rinty, you're right in your summary, I like to think of the historical and cultural ties between Ireland and Scotland and Ulster and Scotland as a positive force for the future and not the persistence of the polarised pidgeon holing that continues along political/sectarian lines. You see it with Parkhead who is essentially, no different to loyalists, in being unable to unpick the truth from the political perceptions. The United Irishmen in the C18th essentially had the most sensible approach in the past and there was a similar organisation over here called the United Scotsmen at the same time. The ideals that these organisations had should be drawn upon in the future in a new way forward. Again, Scotland has its role to play in helping the process. The seeds of which we have seen recently at the anti-Sectarian talks at Hampden |
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| Rinty |
nI dont agree with your description of parkhead rfb, I dont agree with some of his views but I think the problem is often peoples perceptions of his position and steroetyping of him rather than him having a problem picking out the "truth".To parkhead the "truth" is that the IRA were (and remember he says were not are) a valid army fighting occupation, so his starting point will be that. That is not a wrong truth just a different truth. |
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| Corby Boy |
May be so. The perception still is that political polarisation is the order of the day and that different ways forward are difficult for people to grasp. | ||||||
| Barny Rubble |
//Barny, you are out of step with up to date thinking the economic debate has been won by the independence movement, wake up and smell the roses.
 Erm in what way Corby? Scotland is economically unsound maybe if Scotland had gained independence in the late 60s yes..but now, now its to late. I once asked a Scots guy "what exactly has Scotland got ot offer"? And he said, " we have the best cottage cheese industry in Europe" Eh? what the hell's that about nothing to offer but cheese?
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| Corby Boy |
Tourism (the largest revenue spinner), whisky exports, golf, Silicon Glen, 30 years or more of oil left (I have family in the industry so I get certain info from them). One of the largest financial centres in the world in Edinburgh.
The ability to market itself of the world stage e.g. tapping into the huge new world markets for those of Scots descent i.e. USA, NZ, Australia, Canada. Look at ROI, NZ, NL, Belgium, Switzerland etc etc... Scotland are not capable of running themselves like these comparable countries? Again, the roses await to be smelt old boy! |
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| SLG |
I never understand this line of argument - usually from English folk. Do they really think that everyone in Scotland works in either the oil industry or for the Imperial government and that if they were to withdraw that the country would collapse? That there would be no more jobs? That there would be no more subsidies to pay for the mass unemployment? Unfortunately, this is not just fantasy, this is in fact wishful thinking from people who are so anti-Scottish that they would love to see an independent Scotland descent into third world conditions. It's utter racism, which I presume must be based on the fact that they feel rejected that we don't wasn't to run from London any more. | ||||||
| Barny Rubble |
//Tourism (the largest revenue spinner), whisky exports, golf, Silicon Glen, 30 years or more of oil left (I have family in the industry so I get certain info from them).
Whisky? The Jap’s make it cheaper golf? A once a year tournament no! Silicon glen? No! Oil? No! One of the largest financial centres in the world in Edinburgh: No! London is better and more central. Everything you mention is not a economy buster! |
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| Corby Boy |
The English in my experience like to trot out how tolerant and accepting they are as a society, encaptured by Jerusalem - 'the green and pleasant land'. But in reality ignorance, prejudice and outright racism is all too often evident.
Muslim bashing are just recent manifestations of it. I lived in London for 5 years I was gobsmacked at how ignorant those people are of anything north of the Watford Gap services. Most seem to think the Scots have only just got electricity. These are the people we are having to deal with and their politicians reflect it. |
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| Corby Boy |
I rest my case!! | ||||||
| Barny Rubble |
I take it by your said outburst..your debating skills like Scotland's economy is running on zero. A rather childish outburst i thought but if that's your forte...well so be it! | ||||||
| The Lithgae Jambo |
Don't worry about Barney. He's a troll of the highest order and is known throughout boardland under a number of names including Ivor la Bottomy and Chick Murray on the Beeb boards, UB40 and Itsme on Freelands and Michigan, Andre McCoy, Diamond Geeza and McDuff on Freetalkscotland. He usually rants about benefits claimants in Scotland and will often have a pop at freetalkscotland as well - he's been banned from there and he was banned from Freelands under the UB40 name. |
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| SLG |
That's why Barney has troll status. Although he's getting closer to a ban all the time.
I lived in London for a time as well, and I have to agree. The overriding sense I got was of utter ignorance, I was aware of an underlying anti-Scots feeling as well though. |
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| Congal |
Its great to be a neutral on this one.  Not having to bat for Ulster all the time But just to ask......would that not be the same in Scotland as regards the English?
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| Aventinian |
Re: t
Some sort of 'union' perhaps? 
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| SLG |
Re: t
Nah, tried that and look where it got us. Some radical thinking needed here IMO, not the conservative status quo
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| SLG |
Yes I'd agree with that. I think there are different roots though. A major aspect of anti-Englishness in Scotland is due to a feeling of inferioriy that being part of a client state engenders. After independence I expect much of the anti-English feeling in Scotland to disipate. In England, just as there remains an underlying anti-German, anti-French feeling, I expect there to remain a legacy anti-Scottishness. |
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| Rinty |
y
No, some sort of close links. We have understandings and agreements with many countries on many issues, especially neighbouring and bordering countries. Other countries do this and have no problem such as USA/Canada/mexico and more significantly Northern Ireland/UK/rep of Ireland. There is also the EU which is a union but not a union in the way that the UK is. There are many forms of links that make logistical and financial sense without being one lumped together as one country. |
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| Congal |
Cheers. I see where what you mean. I think though thats its funny that when people come up against it.... They band together. There's a poem called 'The Twain' which deals with that aspect. Its Scotland and England in Ulster. |
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| SLG |
So what's the feeling in NI amongst the Unionist community? Do people really feel British, or are the Northern Irish (or Ullish (sp?)) and just British for political purpses? | ||||||
| Corby Boy |
"Don't worry about Barney. He's a troll of the highest order and is known throughout boardland under a number of names including Ivor la Bottomy and Chick Murray on the Beeb boards, UB40 and Itsme on Freelands and Michigan, Andre McCoy, Diamond Geeza and McDuff on Freetalkscotland".
Clearly, he needs to get out more! On the anti-English thing, i'd say many more Scots are taking the morale high ground these days by defining their nationality in positive terms rather than being actively or seen to be anti-English. Many Scots down here don't subscribe to the supporting anyone but England rule during footie matches anymore, but either stay neutral or wish them well. (My personal opinion is that it is a sign of maturity). I am in that camp. But it doesn't make me any less passionate about my homeland or the desire for wishing to see it become independent. Indeed I am very enthusiastic about the drive for an English Parliament and support the movement away from the UJ down here, it can only do the independence cause in Scotland good. |
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| Congal |
Nah I would definitely say the Britishness is well to the fore. Many take a great pride in serving in the army etc. It would take you to have a wee yarn with them, and I think you would get that feeling coming across. It is not as strong as it once was,but its still there. Although there is a strong Ulster identity within that Britishness. Years ago all you would have seen hanging from houses were Union Jacks. Now there are as many Ulster Flags,if not more. Ullishness has grown on them,and as they see the other home countries looking to their own destiny,so they are beginning to do the same. Not on a big scale,but bigger than it was. Gusty Spence was only one of many, who spoke of their family background of service to King/Queen and Country. I suppose it depends who you talk to. Many from working-class areas still serve in the army and I think that helps to give them that feeling of Britishness. Sorry if it sounds a wee bit confusing. But it hard to tie it down. Attitudes harden or mellow depending on the prevelent political situation at the time. |
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| Barny Rubble |
Oh well what else is new? threatened with a ban...doesn't say much for the Scots does it? cant have a debate unless you agree with a Scot! That's not a debate do what you may! who's bothered? I'm not into kissing butt! |
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| Congal |
Think this mural shows the connection has always been there. As one of the other posters has mentioned.....even before the 'plantation' this mural illustrates that too. |
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| Corby Boy |
Suppose the positive thing about that mural is the lack of crown imagery and absence of the UJ ! | ||||||
| SLG |
That's what I don't get... Yes there is a historical connection between Scotland and Ulster, but why does that connection require that both are run from London? | ||||||
| Barny Rubble |
Perhaps its because NI wants to run from London...after all that's what the troubles were about. CoE is the main religion in NI that must tell you something! |
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| The Lithgae Jambo |
And where exactly did you get that statistic from, Ivor ? I'd tend to believe this source. |
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| Congal |
C.O.I. actually....but I know what you mean. It used to be the biggest Protestant domination,but not now. The Presbyterian Church is. Its the 'lesser of two evils' is the way they look at I suppose. Better London than Dublin. The first Presbyterian church in Belfast was in the early 1600s. The first R.C. church didn't come until about the 1780s. Protestants contributed towards its building, and formed a guard of honour for Father Hugh O'Donnell at its opening. |
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| SLG |
I can understand that as the historical motivation, but I wonder why it remains so strong. Europe has member states with smaller populations than NI, the English have little desire to retain NI, Dublin has effectively given up its claim over NI. Mibee it will just take a bit more time. |
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| Congal |
On a T.V. programme about the Ulster-Scots which I had taped and was watching a couple of weeks ago. One of the contributers, who lived on the coast just facing Scotland, said he had never felt himsel as being Irish and he was only British when he went to cast his vote on polling day. I guess that would apply to a few other folk in Ulster. |
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| Congal |
I agree with what you say. Its a hard one to call. The Protestants probably feel more secure being part of the U.K. and likewise many Roman Catholics would feel more secure as part of the R.O.I. Gerry Adams has declared he is an Ulsterman. I know that would probably be his second choice, as it would be for a lot of Loyalists. But who knows it might be something to work on for a later generation. Aye, I think the Montenegro population was given as around 650,000. N.I. population is about 1.7 million now. |
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| SLG |
And that brings us back to the original question... NI is going to have to deal with a UK without Scotland at some point. Should Scotland become independent in 2012, I expect it to lead to a radical shake up of the rest of the UK. With Scotland out of the Union and England possibly making noises about wanting rid of NI and Wales... it could be a crucial time for NI. |
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| Congal |
Well what happens if a situation like that arose, is all in 'the lap of the gods'. Certainly Ulster and those who had supported the link with the mainland would not want to be ruled by an irish goverment. If it came to such a situation,then perhaps Ulster would have to fight for its freedom from irish domination. Who's to say, it is all so hypothetical at this time. |
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| Rinty |
yThe mural doesnt indicate pre-plantation links or it would hjave the Ulster flag rather than the NI flag surely.Donegal is one place that has very close connections with Glasgow and Lanarkshire in particulat and isnt covered by any flag on that mural. The shared languages and culture of both includes gaelic langauge and celtic culture surely? |
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| Congal |
Re: y
Well it says 4,000 years of shared history. I think that should cover it. I think whoever painted the mural,painted it as they though fit. I think the Red Hand would cover it too. |
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| SLG |
That's a point though Congal, those in the Unionist community in NI do highlight the Scots language, but not Gaelic as part of that link. It does imply a certain politicising of the shared culture where Gaelic, as the nationalist language, is excluded. And what about the shared culture that crosses from one county in NI into the neighbouring county in Eire? | ||||||
| Congal |
There are those SLG, in the Ulster Scots community who go to Gaeilge classes, maybe they will go from there, and take up learning the Gaidhlig who knows. The Ulster Scots bodies are charged with promoting Ulster Scots....thats their brief. The Irish bodies hold the same brief. I'm sure both bodies would welcome whoever wanted to come along and enjoy their culture and heritage. As far as a neighbouring county in Eire is concerned. That has already been attended to. The Border Minorities Ulster Scots Group are very active in Donegal and Cavan and I believe in Monaghan too. |
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| Rinty |
uThe Ulster Scots movement is in several strands, the people who promote the language etc are not motivated by political isssues and secratianism and I worked very recently with a couple from radio in NI interviewing a scots poet over here. That mural, however, represents the political use of the movement which seeks to isolate certain part of scots/ulster history as a political statement.If we are talking about a 4,000 year link then it would be gaelic that would be far more prominent and Celtic culture that would be to the fore. The symbolism on the mural is entirely about a 300 year protestant history. |
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| Corby Boy |
It is having the courage to see the linkages between the cultural traditions of language and music and appreciate the differences that will help bring the people of NI together, Rather than the polarised politics.
I see that Ireland and Scotland mirror each other in so many ways in that regard. Highland Gaelic, Lowland Scots, Irish Gaelic, Ulster Scots. Fostering these positive moves and creating cultural (not political) links between all three Scotland, ROI, NI will ultimately be a good move for the future. This process is starting to happen. |
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| Congal |
Re: uI think if I'm correct the Red Hand goes back more than the 400 years since the 'plantation'and the Protestant history associated with that.Political statement? Yes, perhaps, but no more so, than that used by the political parties and politicans from the Irish side. The violence of Irish republicanism has walked hand and hand with the Gaelic revival of the 18 and 1900s. Present day sinn fein declared that.....'every sentence spoken in Irish is another shot in the fight for Irish freedom.' I would call that very much politicising the Irish cultural movement. I have seen publications from the Ulster Scots community which feature the nine county/english Ulster flag. The Ulster Unionist Party, also have a version of that on display outside their headquarters. I agree Corby with some of what you say. |
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| Congal |
Lookin at it again Corby in fact I think youv'e got it about right. Here is a few things from the Border areas. I think anyone can see its pretty inclusive. Although I'm sure somebody will find something to 'lite' on
THE ULSTER-SCOTS BORDER COUNTIES GAITHERIN - OCTOBER 2006 The tradition of the Ulster-Scot is to be celebrated in the border counties of the Irish republic next week. Funded by the Ulster-Scots Agency, events are planned in Donegal town and Letterkenny to highlight the contribution made to County Donegal by the Ulster-Scots Lagganeers through week-long exhibitions, a Thursday evening lecture, and Friday morning workshops for local schools. The first Ulster-Scots Border Counties Gaitherin in the county will be officially launched by Éamon Ó Cuív, TD, Minister for Community, Rural & Gaeltacht Affairs in Donegal Castle at 8.00pm on Thursday 5 October and will include a lecture by Mark Thompson, Chair, Ulster-Scots Agency, and entertainment from Moyne Highland Dancers and members of Moyne Pipe Band. The Thursday evening lecture in Letterkenny will take place in Donegal County Museum at 8.00pm on 12 October entitled “The Rhyming Weaver Poets” and will be given by Anne Smyth, Chair, Ulster-Scots Language Society. A short presentation on “Sarah Leech – Bard of Lettergull” by Jim Devenney, Deputy Chair, Ulster-Scots Agency. Entertainment will be provided by local singer, Stewart Buchanan and Burt Scottish Country Dancers. Exhibitions – “The Ulster-Scots Story” and “Hamilton & Montgomery – the Dawn of the Ulster-Scots” will run in Donegal Castle from 2 – 7 October, whilst “Robert Burns – Scotland’s National Bard” and “The Rhyming Weaver Poets” will run in Donegal County Museum from 9 – 14 October. … and not forgetting the children! Weans’ Workshops will take place on the Friday morning per venue, covering different aspects of the Ulster-Scots culture such as music, dance, storytelling, language and history. Events will also be held in Monaghan and Cavan throughout the month of October. All events are open to the public (except for the Weans’ Workshops which are by invitation only to local schools). USHC Development Officer, Diane Hoy, said: ”Our community in County Donegal has made and continues to make a huge contribution to the lifeblood of the county. Donegal is one of the most diverse counties in Ireland, yet community relations remain excellent. The Ulster-Scots settlers have fully integrated into county life but yet retain their culture, religion and language. This is to be celebrated in the 21st century. Diversity is a strength and has delivered good community relations in Donegal.” WEEK THREE – MONAGHAN EXHIBITIONS – “Ulster-Scots & the Presbyterian Heritage” will run from 19 – 21 October in Ballyalbany Presbyterian Church Hall, Monaghan, Co Monaghan. (Please note Thurs & Fri 7pm – 10pm, Sat 2 – 5pm) “Ulster-Scots & the Presbyterian Heritage” - an introduction to the Presbyterian roots of Ulster-Scots LECTURE – Thursday 19 October, 8.00pm, Ballyalbany Presbyterian Church Hall Welcome Reverend Mervyn Burnside, Ballyalbany Presbyterian Church Introduction John Erskine, Presbyterian Historical Society Lecture “The Early Presbyterians in Ireland” by Professor Laurence Kirkpatrick, Union Theological College, Belfast (author of forthcoming “Presbyterians in Ireland: an illustrated history” Entertainment Clontibret Pipe Band & Border Minority Group Highland Dancers WEANS’ WORKSHOPS – Friday 20 October, 10.00am, Ballyalbany Presbyterian Church 10.00 – 10.40 am Ballyalbany Church Hall Border Reivers Andrew Mattison, Listullycurran Living History Society 10.50 – 11.30 am Ballyalbany Church Hall Scottish Country Dance Ruth Clarke, Royal Scottish Country Dance Society 11.40 – 12.20 pm Ballyalbany Church Hall Tartans & Kilts Dr Clifford Smyth, Ulster-Scots Language Society WEEK FOUR – CAVAN EXHIBITIONS – “The Ulster-Scots Story” and “Hamilton & Montgomery – the Dawn of the Ulster-Scots” will run from 23 – 28 October in Cootehill Library & Arts Centre, Cootehill, Cavan. “The Ulster-Scots Story” is an illustrated timeline depicting four centuries of Ulster-Scots connections “Hamilton & Montgomery – the Dawn of the Ulster-Scots” an illustrated heritage trail from Ayrshire to Ulster discovering the Settlement of Sir James Hamilton and Sir Hugh Montgomery LECTURE – Thursday 26 October, 8.00pm, Cootehill Library & Arts Centre Welcome Sinead Rice, Librarian Introduction Charley McAdam, Border Minority Group Lecture “Hamilton & Montgomery – the Dawn of the Ulster-Scots” by Mark Thompson, Chair, Ulster-Scots Agency Entertainment Nae Goat’s Toe - Traditional Musicians & Storytellers WEANS’ WORKSHOPS – Friday 27 October, 10.00am, Cootehill Library & Arts Centre 10.00 – 10.40 am Cootehill Library Storytelling & Folklore Willie Drennan, traditional storyteller & musician 10.50 – 11.30 am Cootehill Library Language Diane Hoy, Ulster-Scots Heritage Council 11.40 – 12.20 pm Cootehill Library Music & Song Nae Goat’s Toe, traditional musicians |
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| Rinty |
tThats good information about the border stuff congal but we are talking about scotlands links with NI and not just the ulster scots aspect of that. The really close ties with donegal and glasgow are in Scotlands Irish Catholic community.The red hand legend goes back centuries but the red hand used in the flag on the mural is relatively recent and borrowed from gaelic legend to become a symbol (to some) of division and claimed by some for axclusively for one community. One young man recently told me that the red hand legend was during the plantation!! I dont understand why you felt the need, congal, to bring violence by republicans into it, I had suggested that people use the histrory and culture for sectarian reasons but the mural in question was what I was commenting on, no need to be defensive. |
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| Congal |
Re: tDidn't realise I was being defensive. Just trying to show that this sort of thing, was not just exclusive to one side.Someone mentioned earlier on,on this thread about the cross border linkage with Ulster Scots......where was it? type of thing. Thats why I posted about the cross border actitives of the Ulster-Scots people. I recognise that there were links with Donegal and Scotland. It is something that the Ulster-Scots can look at. Iam sure though, that the various Irish organisations would have this well covered already. That young man was obviously wrong. The Red Hand is used by a lot of organisations, including Gaelic teams, one of which is called Lamph Dearg.... the Red Hand. It is also on bank buildings and on civic theatres etc The Red Hand goes back well before the 'plantation' some say even to ancient Egypt. |
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| billalba |
Barny.....Don't you read newspapers or do you get all your information from the crossofstgeorge website...
Today...Scotland at another employment high spot. To say Scotlands economy is running at zero is plainly rubbish.or is this just another say it enough times and enough people will believe it...(sorry not anymore). Whisky is a huge export, tourism, oil, agriculture are relevant or should we just say that anything that is successful must be from somewhere else...because obviously we are kept afloat the westminster.. |
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| Corby Boy |
Congal interested to hear about all the stuff going on cross border, ROI which is great.
It should extend to Gaelic orientated linkages between Scotland and Donegal as things are so close there, I am sure it does already. Good to see the Republic being so open about these things. The Red Hand myth I thought was something going back to the O'Neills who ruled the roost in the Dark Ages? Please enlighten me if you can. billalba, there someone who speaks sense! |
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| Congal |
Well is he the R.O.I. arts and culture minister. Hes opening the festival,so thats something. Corby as far as the Red Hand is concerned 'ya pay yer money and ya take yer choice' There are a few versions The main one is the race between two chieftains the first one to touch Ulster soil....would win the land. One of the chieftains finding himself slightly behind......cut of his hand and threw it onto Ulster soil. Then you have the argument....was it the right or left hand.
Then you have a version saying it was on land,and another version has it on water. Like everything else in this place.....nothing's simple,always complacated
Then there is the Bible version about two brothers at their birth. Another one is that the Red Hand came from Egypt. A guy who has done a wee bit of research on the subject believes this to be the case. It became the Hand of the O' Neills anyway . |
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| Corby Boy |
I gotta hand it to yer, you Ulster folk like a good yarn. (lLame joke I know).
May be the Red Hand came with the stone of destiny, it was the hand that carried it to Tara Hill! |
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| Congal |
Could be Corby Boy. Could be.
I was just thinkin about two years we had a Burns Night in the Europa Hotel with around 300 people there. We had some dancers from Scotland. We had dancers from the local Ulster Scots groups......and we had Irish dancers. It was a great night and we all enjoyed it. My only gripe was......they ran out of Haggis,and so I never got any 
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| Avatar |
I'd imagine the majority would just be happy to go about their day in peace, most of the people I know over there couldn't give two figs about who's running the six counties anymore - they just want to get on with their lives. | ||||||
| Corby Boy |
You can't beat a well cooked Haggis. It's not such a great delicacy when its coated in batter and deep fried. A speciality where I come from, funnily though, it develops a taste all of its own after about 5 pints! | ||||||
| Congal |
Thats it Avatar most people just wanna git on with their life. Before the 'troubles' it was a happier time. The carabet clubs were taking off[before that the bars were just for drinking in] it was the Swinging Sixties and that sorta buzz was in the air. The R.U.C. were being disarmed. A start had already been made with the traffic police, and the rest to follow.
Then the 's**t hit the fan' for and we entered the abyss. Lets hope that is all behind us now and we can get on with living and leaving the last 30 years behind us. Aye Corby, to true, its marvellous how things seem great after a few beers[or whiskys]. Even the women.........
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| parkhead_rfb |
aw well there was mass systematic discrimination but aw well the cabaret clubs were booming so i suppose it all balances out in the end. |
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| Congal |
Ach well.....here we go again. Why am I not suprised. In the words of the old hymn....tell me the old old story. I could indulge in the 'what aboutry' but its hardly worth bothering. As long as your happy blaming all your woes on whoever. I'm not gonna 'rain on your parade'......be my guest. It seems to me you are only happy when your girning. In some ways you remind me of some women......nag nag nag 
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| parkhead_rfb |
well you do deny any discrimination did take place so really there is no point even talking about it. you should start a wee club and join up with people who think the earth is flat and the holocaust was just exaggerated. |
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| Congal |
There was discrimination carried out. Right have you got that now. I have already stated that this applied to seven councils out of a total of sixty eight councils which were operating at that time.
Some of this discrimination was carried out by Nationalist controlled councils against Protestants. I have mentioned this before citing Newry Council. But you seem unwilling or unable to take this on board. Iam beginning to think that the Irish must be the most perfect people on the face of God's earth. They seem to have an attitude.....that we do no wrong. That it is everybody else's fault. As a guy said to me once ''yer better just humouring them'' Much of what happened was nationalists/sinn fein's own fault,as they refused to take part in any of the institutions of the country. It had been a ploy of nationalists for many years to refuse to take part in the country........and then kick up hell about discrimination. But I think most people nowdays, can see through all that. |
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| Corby Boy |
Doesn't take long for the running sores of the past to reappear! An unfortunate fact when any seeds of optimism are being sown. If all did more on a cultural front as previously highlighted, with less emphasis on the politics, things may actually change for the better in the long run. | ||||||
| Congal |
Well you always live in hope don't you. What else can you do. Although we have to face the fact that there are two completely opposed parties. I can't see Republicans/Nationalists becoming Unionists or vice-versa. But in the meantime we have to get on with the day-to-day living. And leave that in abeyance for a while. There are too many innocent people who have died. We owe it to them. There was a song out a few years back,which was an answer to a lot of morbid pop tunes going about at the time. Maybe there a message in it for us all.
In every other song that I've heard lately some fella gets shot And his baby and his best friend die with him as likely as not We're losing all of our happy people and I'm wondering why We're losing all of our happy people and I'm starting to cry So lets think about livin lets think about lovin Lets think about the hooping and the hopping And the lovey lovey doveing Lets forget about the shootin and the crying The fightin and the dying and the fella with the bloodstained knife Lets think about lovin Lets think about life. |
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| Rinty |
tCan we have more evidence of the anti-protestant oppression by the "nationalist" newry council?The NI parliament and its institutions were actively discriminating against the catholic population. I do remember once that someone claimed that a policy of improved new housing being aimed at catholics was the evidence of anti-catholic bias, but you undo any other argument you have Congal by your astounding denial of the systematic institutional bias against catholics in NI. As I have said before, some of my family are Newry protestants and are not exactly even handed, but even they would not claim to have been victims of oppression in the 60's Congal. |
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| Congal |
Re: t
I'll have to go down to the library and hoak the book out. I really don't think though that it will make much difference. A person has a mind-set and no amount of evidence is gonna change their mind. Argument makes little headway against conviction. Usally when figures are produced,they are then dismissed as Unionist propaganda. Or even as happened before.....the goalposts are moved. I think you mentioned before, that your family in Newry were pretty well to do. But even at that, there are very very many Protestants who don't think its right to complain....''you get on with life''type of thing. Protestants in Eire fitted into this mould. Keep your head down and say nothing was their modus operandi. These are just some of the housing estates that I can think of off-hand, built to house the R.C. people by the Stormont goverment. Just to say at the same time I was living in a tin house. I use to be a wee bit envious as I went past some of these places on my push-bike to work.
Twinbrook,Andersontown,Ballymurphy,Turf Lodge,Unity Flats,Riverdale,Creggan,and I think Bawnmore. These are only some of the places built by the Ulster goverment. If I was to delve into it I'm sure there are many more. Unity Flats as the name suggests was built by the Stormont goverment,with the idea of getting the people to live together. Twinbrook was the same. But though time the Protestants had to move out and they became Roman Catholic estates. A lot was said about Divis Flats and the complaints about them. But as Joe Hendron's[SDLP] brother said. It was the people who wanted them. They wanted to stay in the area. They were told the only way to do this was with high-rise flats......to which they agreed. Another example of creating a situation.......then girning about it. I have to say that the first high-rise flats built in Ulster were in a Protestant area. They are still there to-day. I don't expect this to 'cut much ice'with those opposed to Ulster. They will do a bit of 'nit-picking' or 'goal post moving' like when it was shown how the Stormont Goverment had housed the Roman Catholic people. They then said ...thats because they couldn't afford to own there own homes like Protestants did. Even I had to smile at that one. I think as the guy said....just humour them .
I think it speaks volumes when words like oppression are used. Not even discrimination anymore. Now I think the Jews could tell us a wee bit about oppression.
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| Congal |
Just lookin at that again. Will I hear.....''your lucky you had a job to go to'' It wouldn't susprise me Even though there were R.C. people going to the same place in their car,not on a push-bike.
But, where I worked there was a fair mix of people. Some even of an irish republican outlook. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
the irony of you stating that truth makes little head way against conviction is astounding considering the vast, vast majority of historians on this matter will tell you there was systematic discrimination. | ||||||
| Congal |
It is a fact that applies to me as well as you. I have my point of view and I'm certainly not going to change it in order just to please you. And I'm sure you are not going to change yours either. Hence, whats the point in asking sources and all the rest of it. The sources would soon be dismissed as unreliable,Protestant propaganda, or such like thing. What I find astounding..... is your support for the republican murderers. To me thats more astounding than my comments about alleged discrimination. It amazing how my comments astound you. Yet the murders of the 1,500 people doesn't. How pathetic and sad.
I just wonder if I was to take a line supporting loyalist bombers and murderers,would I be tolerated on here. I very much doubt it. And rightly so. But in the interest of fair play and freedom of speech maybe it should be tolerated. Whats sauce for the goose...is sauce for the gander. |
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| Corby Boy |
Fascinating insight! | ||||||
| Rinty |
y
Again this is not my experience. I didnt see protesters intimidating children en-route to any of the 250 state funded protestant schools in the republic. Members of my family also lived across the border without the experiences you claim and my uncle and others used to have an annual trip to Dublin to visit King Billys throne at Christchurch cathedral and loved the trip and the welcoming people, even though people knew that they were orangemen. I agree that the catholic church had undue influence over the state and its institutions for a long time but that is not the same as anti-protestant oppresiion. |
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| Congal |
I'm sure I posted up somewhere on this site about happenings in Bandon Co Cork, an article from the Independent concerning these matters.
The point is people can relate their own experiences. There are people who have lived all though the 'troubles' here, and have been hardly affected by them at all. I can tell how as kids, Roman Catholics helped with collecting bonfire wood for the 11th night celebrations. And Protestants returned the favour for the 15th of August. But I'm sure there are those from both sides who will dispute that this ever happened. And they may be right as it never happened to them. But thats not to say it never happened at all. So everyone can draw on their own different experiences,to back up whatever particular line they are taking. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
I dont deny that irish republican organisations have caused the deaths of innocent people. The ira and other groups are fighting a guerilla war against one of the worlds major powers, it would be near impossible for such a campaign to be conducted without such tragic events. the pira themselves have publicly expressed deep regret at the loss of non combatants, republicans never seek to hide these facts. Obviously republicans realise this wont mean much to the families of those killed but likewise there are many republicans and innocent nationalists who mourn losses caused by the brits and loyalists. War isnt some glorious thing, its horrible, its nasty and as soon as the opportunity for lasting peace was available republicans were at the front of bringing it to society. you on the other hand seek to deny what is blatantly a historical fact. Some arguments do at least seem to have some logic and reason, your denial of discrimination is frankly ludicrous considering the sheer volume of evidence available. |
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| Congal |
Quote...denial of discrimination? Do you read the threads? Go back and look though it
I think your a guy who is stuck in a time-warp. And they were terrorists....they terrorised people. But of course you's have to dress it up as 'armed struggle' which in reality is a murder campaign. I think it says something about people who have to use a euphemism. They don't like facing the hard facts of what they've done. So give it a fancy sounding title. Republicans terrorists, like loyalists murder people. At least the loyalist variety don't hide behind some 'high falautin' phrase like 'armed struggle' I ask you
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| Congal |
The revelant part of a previous post......
The answer is that there is a amnesia about the atrocities against Irish Protestants, mostly in provincial Ireland, in the period 1920/21. Apart from the propaganda of republican apologists, the silence of Irish Protestants has also protected us from some terrible truths. West Cork Protestants have told me many stories of severe suffering. But none of them is prepared to go public. Dublin Protestants and Catholics listen to these stories with disbelief. How could such things have been hushed up, they ask. Clearly they have no idea of how vulnerable a Methodist family can feel in the middle of remote rural area. Or how reluctant to raise the murder of a relative when the descendants of his murderers might now be good neighbours. The amnesia has also been assisted by Irish Protestants in three other areas. First, the Church of Ireland, in the name of an empty ecumenism, has failed to call for a full accounting of what happened to southern Protestants in 1921/22. Second, those who call themselves Protestant republicans have also played a part in the cover-up. Anytime I write about these events I can be sure that some Protestant republican will surface and tell me that he is perfectly happy, and that "it doesn't help the peace process" to look back at these things. Finally, some Irish Protestants put the soft life before their duty to the dead. On previous form, my mailbag next week is sure to bring anonymous letters from Dublin Protestant blow-ins to West Cork telling me how well they get on with their RC neighbours and signed Blissfully Happy. Let me make something clear to empty ecumenists, Protestant republicans and blissfully happies alike. This has nothing to do with you. Most of us digging for truth are from Roman Catholic republican backgrounds. We are digging because justice must be done even if the heavens fall. Right now, the unholy alliance of Protestant republicans and republican apologists is keeping the Hornibrooks buried. But, as Yeats said: Though grave-digger's toil is long,/Sharp their spades, their muscles strong,/ They but thrust their buried men/ Back in the human mind again. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
you have just posted an opinion by one unamed individual, doesnt give any facts, details, references etc. you just posted the ramblings of personal opinion.
and you have denied there was systematic discrimination against catholics in the six counties, despite the overwhelmind evidence that there was. |
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| Congal |
If there is anybody who can ramble it is you boyo. But it takes one to know one...as the saying goes.
What about aul Gerry, yer leader. You would believe what he says....now wouldn't you? Well he says that the brave boys of th ra were in the 'civil rights' from the start. Only they wern't worried about 'civil rights' They had their own agenda.......'the border is not an issue' was trumpeted by quite a few people. But the Protestants of Ulster knew different. It has always been an issue. But the downtrodden ploy was used to good effect. That is why we are where we are to-day. I know you can fool all the people on the mainland,but you don't fool the Protestant folk in Ulster. They know the score. |
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| franko |
Congal, 68 councils, really? Where were they mate? |
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| Congal |
I thought you mighta knew that seein ya seem to take such an interest in 'our wee country' Or is it all just 'front'
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| Rinty |
tThere were different kinds of councils franko, some with more powers than others, district councils, borough councils etc. They were abolished in the early seventies and replaced by 20 odd amalgamated authorities.Congal, I dont think that not knowing all 68 (if that was the number) of the various local government divisions means that Franko doesnt have a interset or knowledge of NI! |
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| Congal |
Well Rinty, I claimed there were 68 local authorities functioning. He seems to dispute this. If this is so, I think the onus is on him to show differently......not me. | ||||||
| Rinty |
tI dont think he disputed it, he probably just thought it seemed a high number. Of course all 68 were not repsosible for policy in a lot of cases and the had varying powers depending on the level.Were Newry and Mourne one of the 68? I'm not sure, but it does sound like a large area and a lot more than one 68th of the country. So it depends if we are comparing like with like and how many of the 68 had enough powers to actually be biased in policy or not. I still think you need to show us how you consider Newry to be a council that were anti-protestant. |
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| Congal |
I'll see if I can get that book when I'm at the library again. I have three out at the moment,soon as I've got though them I'll take em back and have a look for that one.
This is just one of the footnotes in 'The Politics Of Antagonism'....... 'It should be emphasized,as it was in the Cameron Report [1969],that some of the few Nationalist-controlled local councils practised a reciprocal discrimination in housing' |
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| Rinty |
g
So there were only a few nationalist councils and only some of them practised discrimanatory practices? Considering that we are talking about a situation where the national parliament and police were without doubt anti-catholic, a few councils wouldnt amount to much in the face of it. And again, lets look and see whether the figures that suggest discriminatory practice actually amount to that. If new houses replaced the worst old houses and catholics just happened to be in the worst houses (whether by discrimination or not) the figures might suggest preferential treatment to catholics but it might not actually be the case that religion played any role at all. Here is a direct link to the conclusions of the Cameron report into the causes of disturbances. Number one conclusion is "A rising sense of continuing injustice and grievance among large sections of the Catholic population in Northern Ireland, in particular in Londonderry and Dungannon, in respect of (i) inadequacy of housing provision by certain local authorities (ii) unfair methods of allocation of houses built and let by such authorities, in particular; refusals and omissions to adopt a 'points' system in determining priorities and making allocations (iii) misuse in certain cases of discretionary powers of allocation of houses in order to perpetuate Unionist control of the local authority" |
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| franko |
Congal, I think, given you are making the assertion, that it is up to you to tell me about the 68 local authorities in 'Northern Ireland'? To be fair, I do know a wee bit about Irish/Northern Irish history; that is why I am asking you about the 68 local authorities - I've never heard of this number before so perhaps you will enlighten me? |
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| franko |
Re: t
Rinty, I know there were far more councils - based on the old British administrative structures in Ireland prior to partition - than there are now. I have never ever seen the number 68 quoted, ever, mate. Of course, I could be wrong, and, if so, I look forward to being corrected by Congal. |
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| Congal |
Maybe this will help a wee bit towards enlightenment......though I very very much doubt it
To enquire into the causes of the civil disturbances which had taken place,there was appointed in March 1968,a body known as the Cameron Commission. This consisted of a Scottish judge,a medical professor and a lecturer who had long served on the staff of a Belfast Roman Catholic teacher's training college. The Commision was charged with presenting a report with the upmost speed. It was,however,given no power to compel the presence of persons or the production of papers nor could it examine any witness on oath. It was thus very dependant on what anybody chose to tell it. Its report was therefore perceptive on some matters,particularly those which related to some of the immediate events,but largely worthless when it made large generalisations about past history and the social background. At the head of its list of causes of civil disturbances the Commission put: ''a rising sense of continuing injustice and grievance among large sections of the Catholic population in Northern Ireland and particulary in Londonderry and Dungannon,in respect of [i] inadequacy of housing provision by certain local authorities,[ii] unfair methods of allocation of houses built and let by such authorities,in particular,refusals and omissions to adopt a 'points' system in determining priorities and making allocations[iii] misuse in certain cases of discretionary powers of allocation of houses in order to perpetuate Unionist control of the local authority.'' These grave and wide-ranging charges,however,were based on allegations made to the commissioners about only seven of the sixty-eight local authorities then functioning. The commissioners stated that they received evidence which was '' in a number of cases supported by statistics and documents,themselves factual and not open to challenge on the score of their accuracy''. Since these documents were never made public,it seemed indeed all too true that they could not be challenged. No attempt was made in the report to quantify the prevalence of the alleged sectarian discrimination in the allocation of housing. Presumably the commissioners let themselves be swept into these generalisations by a small number of emotively presented individual cases of genuinely or apparently inequitable allocation. Yet even individual cases were not easy to discover. Thus, when Austin Currie,a prominent young politican and opponent of the Goverment,tried to draw attention to what he believed was a case of discrimination at Caledon in June 1968,by staging a 'squat' in the home which was in dispute, he said, ''If I had waited a thousand years,I'd never get a better case than this one.'' This was interpreted as an admission that cases which could be used to support Mr Currie's contentions about housing were not numerous. |
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| Rinty |
fHere is a link to the full cameron reporthttp://cain.ulst.ac.uk/hmso/cameron.htm
Or you could say a British judge and two academics. Whether the person involved worked at a catholic teachet training college is irelevant unless you are suggesting that only protestants can be objective in compiling reports. I believe, in fact, that the person you refer to John Campbell, was actually a protestant who worked for a short period of his life at a catholic teacher training college among other colleges and universities. No commission such as this usually has the powers to compel anyone to attend but most people did apart from handful who refused, they were: Rev. J. Brown Mr. D. Hutchinson Major R. Bunting Rev. I. R. K. Paisley W. Craig, M.P. I dont think I need to tell you that none of the above ever worked at a catholic teacher training college, although we can get a wee bit of background on them from the report "Dr. Paisley is chairman of the Ulster Constitution Defence Committee which avowedly controls the Ulster Protestant Volunteers of which Major Bunting is Commandant. The Rev. Mr. Brown is District Commandant of the Ulster Special Constabulary in Londonderry, a County Grand Master in the Orange Order and prominent in the Apprentice Boys organisation. Mr. Hutchinson (prominent in the Ulster Protestant Volunteers) was charged with and convicted of offences arising from the disturbances in Armagh on 30th November." However you can look at the formidable list of those who did submit evidence here http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/hmso/cameron3.htm#appendI To say it was "largely worthless when it made large generalisations about past history and the social background" is a bit odd given that such a wide range of government, social and church groups took part. Sounds like a poor attempt to rubbish the report to me. Still, we can all read it rather than read your summary of it. |
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| franko |
Congal, I have just completed an internet search re your claim of 68? councils in the North - There were actually 73, though many had the most minimal of powers possible. This is according to the political scientist Dr. John Whyte, a reliable unionist, who comments on 14 or 15 councils accused of discrimination against the catholic community. Apologies for doubting your numbers, but you are incorrect in so many other assumptions, assertions etc, you can hardly blame me for being sceptical, can you? And btw, most catholics did not complain about discrimination anywhere in the 6 county state, purely because they felt it was pointless, and that you were better 'keeping the head down'. Certainly, this was the experience of the catholic community in rural areas such as Coalisland amd Clonoe in County Tyrone, Congal. |
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| Congal |
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