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| dave-ex-pat |
whats the use of Devolution?After reading this I have to ask what's the use of the Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh?http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2289241,00.html After all by the "normal" rules of war allowing Prestwick to be used for the transport of war materials makes it a legitimate target. So presumably that makes it and Scotland more likely to be targetted by any terrorists who feel that theirs is a rightful stuggle against Israel and its supporters. Yet despite Scots now being made less safe our elected representatives are powerless to intervene. One word lads. SHAM. Mind you Blair is no democrat either since he ignores public opinion over Iraq, Afghanistan, Nuclear power, etc, etc, etc. |
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| neil8r |
Re: whats the use of Devolution?
Not quite true, yes our elected officials in Holyrood are powerless to do anything, but don't forget we still have elected officials at Westminster. The problem there of course is that 1. there aren't enough Scot's MP's to make a difference and 2. Most of the Scot's MP's there are loyal to Blair for their own self interest. Best solution ditch the WEstminster MP's and bring all powers to Holyrood i.e. Independence. |
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| Aventinian |
Re: whats the use of Devolution?
So we are supposed to cave in every time we fear someone attacking us? Personally I don't think we should ever consider these people.
That might be because the public are largely ignorant and will vote for multiple contradictory things. We are not a democracy, we are a parliamentary democracy - and thank God for that. If I was governed by the average man on the street I'd hate to imagine what situation I'd be in. Capital punishment etc. I don't care how many people want it - it's still wrong. [quote="neil8r"]
You're quite right. However what is the philosophical difference between the MPs from Scotland at Westminster being outnumbered and the MSPs from Prestwick in an independent Scottish parliament being outnumbered? And I remind you that for better or worse, the Scottish people vote for Blair et al in huge numbers. |
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| Babygael |
Wull hai there Av, yew said
lets face it sweet cakes, they kicked oor buts at Culloden,oor Cheiftains sold us oot and the union was born against the peoples wishes.And any one who thinks that it doesn't matter today is only fooling themselves,ignorance is no excuse! I'll bet that the Scots who vote for Labour "in hugh numbers " are fowk wae are too busy tryin' tae get by in life,and they figure that he's a homey,lets vote!Plus it may be a familly tradition lets follow suit. The truth is that we live in a relatively safe world by comparison. No one is going to knock on our door in the middle of the night! Our loved ones are not going to dissapear without trace as a result. I have been travelling around S.America for some years now.And you might laugh, but on many occasions I have been taken for a missionary!! 
Non-the-less, we are a proud people, and demand a right and proper response from those who will stand up and be counted.Dinna get in my face wae yer pan loaf spik and not deliver! If you deliver, i'll be your dog 4 for life!! Oh an p.s Av, BRING ON CAPITAL PUNISHNENT! BG  
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| neil8r |
Re: whats the use of Devolution?
The difference i would suggest is that collectively the people of Scotland have a different way of thinking in how things should be than England and as such will rarely have a government who is looking out for their viewpoint.(The Thatcher years being a classic example, England voted Tory and Scotland voted Labour but Scotland still got Tory) I still think that the Scottish people vote for what they think is a left wing party despite it having a right wing leadership. |
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| Blackadder |
What's the use of devolution???
You dear little thing. It's for you to play with and kid yourself it's the next best thing to Independence. Don't think you're ever going to get that either. We'll just shoot you all then fill up the country with spare English plebs and immigrants from white countries. |
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| SLG |
Re: whats the use of Devolution?
It's not about caving in. It's about realism. We need to think about what benefits we get out of aiding US in their support of Israel compared with the increased risk to the population. |
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| neil8r |
Re: whats the use of Devolution?
I'd be interested to hear if we do have any benefits from aiding the U.S. I certainly can't think of any. |
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| SLG |
Well they aren't dropping any bombs on us. There may be a connection. | ||||||||||||
| Cado |
Being ruthlessly macheivellian, I'd say this has gifted to the Nats some of the best political ammunition they could hope for. Just watching the news recently - they state that many within Labour at the UK Govt level are spitting teeth.
However - seeing as Blair isn't an absolute dictator - it does take all of them - I suspect it is crocodile tears from many knowing how badly things like this go down outside of Govt. I think this is a tactic of the Labour Party we should be wise to - or at least it is my suspicion. The legacy of Thatchers did a lot of damage to the Tory Party - even with Thatcher gone they are having difficulty in throwing of her Shadow that has been left hanging over them. I suspect the Labour movement realised this early on - how do we get in a leader that we support - to get him to do things we want but the country won't want us to do - but remain electable in the future? Simple - support him in private - deride him in public. By making it look as if they're against him "yes, I know, I know. But what can we do?.we're trying to get him out but he's stuck there". It keeps people on side and symapthetic with Labour - thinking this is all Blairs doing. Have you noticed that the more contraversal the issue - the more 'rebels' there are - but the rebels never actually manage to derail a thing. We all know how brilliant Labour have got with spin and presentation. We should strongly consider the possibilty that many of these 'splits' are choreographed. OK - realms of conspiracy theory maybe - but you've got to agree that all these splits, 'rebels' etc work well for the continuation of Labour. When they're voted out they go back to being a 'careing, sharing' left wing organisation, wrapping their arms around all the vunerable people, makin themselves seem beyond moral reproach - then they get back in and do whatever it is they want to do. Its a thought. Buts its a thought based on the fact that these rebellions never succeed but actually seem to be adding to their longevity. When it comes to the crunch - they never go the way we think they should of based on what sort of party they sold themselves as. A thought - IMO |
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| Anthropos |
Perhaps I just have Baldrick like intelligence, but I cannot make any sense of this at all. What the hell has Culloden got to do with anything? You go on to say "The truth is that we live in a relatively safe world by comparison. " - by comparison with what or when? With Culloden? Well yes we do live in a very safe and stable part of the world, and thank da Lawd that we do (for now, the good times probably won't last, they never do). |
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| Aventinian |
I don't know about you, but my family won in Culloden from what I understand. The side I support certainly won - I believe in Parliamentary, not absolute, monarchy and I believe in the Crown being bound to loyalty to its people. I don't quite know what your chieftains sold you out doing... and I remind you further that the union of states that formed Scotland was born against the people's wishes, and on occasion by invasion and imperialism. The British union at the very least respected the national legal traditions of both states. I don't think that's particularly relevant to who we should be voting for today. In case you haven't realised, these causes are dead and forgotten - I bet you the vast majority of Scottish people couldn't even tell you what Culloden was about or who it was fought between. It's a bit like being against the European Union on the basis of the Germans' actions in WW2.
Oh yes, whereas you nationalists are all philosopher-kings on a higher plane of understanding.
Afraid I couldn't make an ounce of sense out of that, but if you support capital punishment I'm afraid I can't think very highly of you.
To suggest that Scotland somehow speaks with some sort of collective voice is nonsense. For everyone who voted Labour in the 80s, there were a good few places that were pro-Thatcher. Take any county of England and I imagine if you polled then throughout the past three hundred years then they would have just as many differing opinions from the British government. It's call democracy - the minority yield to the majority in most cases. And personally, I don't think you can truly categorise Labour as left or right wing. That would suggest it has an ideology, which it plainly does not.
And you don't think Tony Blair or his (well, the Queen's) ministers think about that before acting? |
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| Blackadder |
I think I like the way this Aventinian semi-thinks.
Baldrick ... you're FIRED!!! Aventinian ... you're HIRED! You get to sleep (when allowed) in the gutter, do everything you're told ... and if you're VERY good ... your own TURNIP!!! Just put your X on the contract ... and say goodbye to the forum. I don't allow the servants to participate in polite society. |
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| neil8r |
My point though is that the majority of people in Scotland are Left wing thinking people whereas is England this is clearly not the case. There is a fundemental difference politically speaking between Scotland and England.
Why can't you? anybody out there knows that previously Labour were left wing and Conservative Right wing. The problem is the Labour leadership realised to get in power they would have to pander to the majority of people in England and as such they chucked principle out the window and shifted their party to the right even though this goes against the principles of their party membership. |
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| Anthropos |
At the last election the Conservatives got more votes than Labour in England, but if you combine the Labour and Liberal Democrat votes (and assume the Lib Dems are a left wing party) then technically the centre left vote in England is bigger than the centre right. I am not convinced "the majority of people in Scotland are Left wing thinking people" as I think people vote according to what they consider to be their own best interests, when voting Unionist (as the Conservatives were once called) was considered to be in their best interests (such as 1955) they did this, and switched to Labour when that was perceived to be in their best interests. Same for the SNP too, they cast off their Tartan Tories image and went left wards because that is where votes were to be won (their election results in 1974 were pretty crap). This is largely tied to the state of the economy, and because Scotlands economy has been pretty weak in the post war period (and indeed long before then) it has led to Scots taking a generally leftist political stance, if the economy was in better shape the political culture would reflect this.
I don't think it was against the principles of the party memebership as a majority backed Blair. He may not have been their ideal leader but they were sick of losing and backed Blair because he was capable of winning, therefore it seems reasonable that winning was one of their main principles. |
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| neil8r |
None of the major British Nationalist parties are left wing these days, below is the Political Compass website's view of the UK election 2005 obviously it is missing out the Scottish parties but quite clearly showing that the main parties that want power in England are all on the right hand side, whereas for Scotland we know the SNP and SSP are clearly left wing. 
Below is a link showing the number of MP's per party returned by Scottish Constituencies since 1868 and apart from one or two major shifts, i think it shows that Scotland has always been to the Left http://www.alba.org.uk/westminster/results.html
Is it not the case that Labour membership has nearly halved since Blair became Prime minister, there must be a reason behind it. |
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| Aventinian |
Exactly which policies do the SNP hold that are more left-wing than Labour or the Lib Dems? To be honest, I see the SNP as Labour clones. As an opposition party, since the creation of devolution they've opposed... wait for it... a grand total of 7 bills! [quote] Below is a link showing the number of MP's per party returned by Scottish Constituencies since 1868 and apart from one or two major shifts, i think it shows that Scotland has always been to the Left http://www.alba.org.uk/westminster/results.html I'd say it's fairly even if you don't consider the Liberals left-wing. And I don't really. |
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| neil8r |
In historical terms compared to their opposition they were |
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