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| parkhead_rfb |
whisper of infamy absent from rememberanceWhisper of infamy absent from remembrance12 November 2006 By Vincent Browne This afternoon, President Mary McAleese will attend what is called an ‘ecumenical service of remembrance and reconciliation’ in St Patrick’s Cathedral. This afternoon, President Mary McAleese will attend what is called an ‘ecumenical service of remembrance and reconciliation’ in St Patrick’s Cathedral. In a tribute to her hosts, the British Legion, she will probably sport a poppy, which is the fundraising device for the British Legion and is the emblem used to commemorate ‘the Fallen’ of the First World War. The poppy is associated with that war because of the poem, In Flanders Fields, written by Canadian doctor Major John McCrae. It is a moving but troubling poem: In Flanders fields, the poppies blow Between the crosses, row on row, That mark our place; and in the sky The larks, still bravely singing, fly Scarce heard amid the guns below. We are the Dead. Short days ago We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow, Loved, and were loved, and now we lie In Flanders fields. It was King George V who, in 1919, suggested the inauguration of a Remembrance Day in honour of the British armed forces who were killed in the Great War from 1914-1918. It was an understandable patriotic gesture on the part of a monarch who, at the outset of the war, had changed the name of the royal family from the house of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to the house of Windsor. He also relinquished the use of all German titles used by the royal family. For instance, his cousin, Prince Louis of Battenberg, became Louis Mountbatten, first Marquess of Milford Haven. The king stripped of their British titles his many relatives who fought on the German side in that war, although they did so because they were German. That war was precipitated on June 28, 1914, when a Bosnian terrorist killed Archduke Franz Ferdinand, the heir to the Austrian throne, and his wife, in Sarajevo. This led Austria to declare war on Serbia. That in turn brought Russia, an ally of Serbia, into the conflict. Because France was an ally of Russia, France also became involved. Germany opportunistically thought it would get involved on the side of Austria - and this caused Britain, also opportunistically, to become involved, on the side of Russia and France. There had been a naval arms race between Britain and Germany since 1906, and both sides wanted control of the seas. There was no cause, no rationale, no honour. Just imperial power politics. In that war, between 10 and 12 million people lost their lives and another 20 million people were injured. It was the most barbaric war the world had known up to that time. That so many were slaughtered is an abomination. There was nothing honourable about that war, no just cause. It was despicable from the outset and no individual bravery or heroism could dignify it. That war deserves to be remembered in infamy, not renown. Those who died on all sides were victims of evil, victims of empire. But will a whisper of that infamy be uttered in St Patrick’s Cathedral this afternoon - or anywhere else where official Remembrance Day ceremonies take place? Will our voluble president utter even a word of dismay over the loss of thousands of Irish lives so ignominiously? Among those who encouraged Irishmen to engage in that infamous enterprise was one of the newly-resuscitated heroes of our history, John Redmond. A Nationalist MP since 1880, Redmond was a supporter of Charles Stewart Parnell. In 1910, he was elected leader of the Irish Parliamentary party. It is glibly said of him that he was ‘passionately’ opposed to physical force. But that passion did not deter him from supporting the most shameful exercise of physical force the world had ever known at that time, World War I. His rhetorical defence of this position was based on the contention that the war was about the defence of small nations, in this instance ‘‘gallant little Belgium’’. Belgium was then the most odious of all the colonial powers. It had subjected the people of the Congo to appalling ravages and cruelties. Pictures of mountains of severed Congolese hands are testimony to that cruelty. More than a million Congolese are estimated to have died in the enterprise to bring ‘civilisation’ to that part of the continent. Out of that infernal venture, there emerged one story of heroism - on the part, incidentally, of an Irishman. Roger Casement was the first to expose the nature of ‘‘gallant Belgium’’. He later became involved in another relatively insignificant exercise of physical force, the 1916 Rising, which gallant Redmond thought was morally indefensible. Redmond and his associates were responsible for encouraging more Irish people to engage in physical force than were ever to be engaged in any other exercise of physical force in history. Thousands and thousands of Irish people - and more than 10 million others - died for nothing on the fields of Flanders and elsewhere in that war. Redmond and his friends encouraged people to fight and die for a cause that deserved the loss of not a single life. They did so for reasons that they thought were good, but many crimes against humanity were inspired by similar convictions. Isn’t it curious that those who have recently denounced the commemoration of the 1916 rebellion on the grounds that it involved the loss of hundreds of lives are, in many instances, those who ‘commemorate’ the First World War, without regard for the essential infamy of that enterprise? In Flanders Fields concludes: Take up our quarrel with the foe: To you from failing hands we throw The torch; be yours to hold it high. If ye break faith with us who die We shall not sleep, though poppies grow In Flanders fields. What quarrel, what foe, what torch, what faith, though poppies grow in Flanders fields? |
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| Congal |
Quote...'They did so for reasons that they thought were good, but many crimes against humanity were inspired by similar convictions.'
Very true. |
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| Cymro |
Parkhead, I was watching the Real Radio phone in thing on Setanta 1 lastnight just before the Hearts Falkirk match and a few celtic fans where calling in to appologise about the behaviour of some Celtic fans in the St Mirren match on the Saturday. Apparently the club didn't do a minutes silence before the match and quite a few fans where sining the Usuall Political songs.
I know it's easy to say that Remembresence Sunday is a British thing, but given that Irish men and Catholics from Scotland died in the First World War should Celtic FC and some fans (I know it wasn't all by any means) have been a lot more carefull in how they behaved on this event? Just curious |
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| Stiggers |
I was at the Riding of the Marches in Annan last summer (2006). An event to celebrate and reinforce the difference of Scotland from England.
It was the day Portugal played England and by a sad coincidence the climax of the match and at least one goal coincided with the minutes silence for the dead always observed during the final parade. There was mass cheering when Portugal scored and the moment was ruined for a load of the old boys to whom these myths are very important. This wasnt a minutes silence for the English dead, but for those who came from Annan in particular. I thought it was a shamefull way to behave personally. I think taking the line that Scotland is somehow independent of these old myths is to do no honour to the elders of your community, many of whom will have fought against Hitler. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
I cant see any likely hood of it not being observed. personally if i was there I would have stood down stairs in the concourse as i refuse to take part in any commemoration which includes british soldiers killed fighting one of britains many imperialist conflicts. I wouldnt disrupty a minutes silence though so i would just stay away from it. I also find it amusing though that its said there shouldnt be any politics involved in football. I very much doubt those spouting this would be so aghast at political displays by fans of barcelona and athletico bilbao, there is also a large left wing element in the st pauli support in germany. It's also hypocritical to criticise a group of fans for singing political songs but then say there should have been a minutes silence, essentially that minutes silence is a political act which is being pushed into all those who attend that match wither they like it or not. from listening to the match and speaking to 2 st mirren fans i work with it also seems that the two most contentious songs were the boys of the old brigade and the soldiers song. One is about 1916 and the other is the irish national anthem. Essentially that announcer then branded the whole irish 26 county state sectarian. |
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| Cymro |
Parkhead, a minutes silence is an act of commemorating those who died. Many of those who died where conscripted into the army - from Ireland, Wales, England and Scotland and the rest of the British Empire. Many people didn't choose to give their lives for the British Empire, the British Empire chose them. Why can't you respect them?
That is an issue which still causes some anger here in Wales, and I'm sure in the rest of the UK. That though doesn't stop people remembering those where essentially forced to die by the British state. Why do you have such a problem with that? British Imperialism has nothing to do with it. Yes, the ceremony at the Cenotaph etc may be politcal, but to claim it is all about it is beyond contempt. For many if not most people it is a deeply personal thing. And my point was, Celtic didn't do a minutes silence. Celtic fans admitted this and criticised it. Surely that is wrong, and a bit disrespectfull of an event like that? Celtic FC have asked fans to stop singing certain songs, as was mentioned it has been practically stopped at Celtic Park but not on away games, so I doubt he was referring only to the 2 songs you mentioned. Secterian they may not be, uneccessary they probably are. Also, I never said it was wrong to sing politcal songs - I don't think there is a need in football but that is another matter. Just that to sing those songs during an event to commemorate the dead is again - disrespectfull. And against what Celtic FC had been asking fans to do! |
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| Avatar |
"essentially that minutes silence is a political act which is being pushed into all those who attend that match wither they like it or not. "
I disagree, I dont see how taking one minute to remember all the lives lost in usually pointless and bloody wars is political, its simply a matter of respect. Its fair enough if someone personally doesn't want to do it they can carry on doing whatever, but in situations where you may be in a crowd its atleast polite to stay silent so allow other people to have their moment of remembrence. |
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| Cymro |
I agree. My first minutes silence at a football match was at a Wrecsam match after a soldier from Wrecsam had died during the first Gulf War (the first British soldier to die in the conflict). People at the attendence may or may not have agreed with the war but many knew the man and the town in general deserved the time to remember in silence. It's the same with rememberence day, it is personal not political for many people and to undermine that is just rude. | ||||||
| parkhead_rfb |
I never said i would dirupt it in anyway. i said i would stay down stairs in the stadium concourse. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
If the silence were simpy for those who died in world war one and world war two then i would take part. i wont though stand for a rememberance which includes those who have died in iraq, ireland etc. I wouldnt disrupt it i just wouldnt choose to take part. Essentially though it is a political act. if celtic decided to have a minutes silence for ira volunteers who had died that would be seen as a political act. you cant say keep politics out of football but then say that only counts when its a certain type of politics. |
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| Highlander |
Well since the armed forces don't choose the wars they fight I will still support and remember the people that gave their life for this country in any war. |
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| Cymro |
Aaah, I see your selected eyesight is at work again Parkie! As I said (and Avatar said better) the Minutes Silence isn't about Politics for many if not most people. It is a deeply personal thing to remember those who died. So when I say a Minutes Silence is a good thing, I mean that because it is a way of respecting the dead. That isn't political that is common sense and politeness. During a Minutes silence feel free to think of the IRA terrorists who have died and those who suffered from British Soldiers and the State if you like, no one can tell. As I said it's personal. I suspect your problem is anything remotely British and are failing to see every 'event' on their individual merits. You don't have to see Rememberence Day as someday to celebrate British Military and Political influence and interference in the rest of the world, but as a way of remembering the many who have died thanks to the policies on the British state. I doubt Celtic would openly want an event commemorating the deaths of IRA members, ans they to be fair have been trying to get rid of this sort of association. Being a Scottish club they have an image to uphold and the scrutiny put under them and Rangers means they will be working even harder now. It's just that certain Celtic fans choose to ignore the requests of their club in order to get one over on their rivals. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
if the celtic plc had their way we would be a soul less bunch of customers who didnt sing, shout or swear. standing up would also be a no no. we would just sit in silence eating our stadium bought over priced food. I dont base my thoughts on statements by celtic board members.
also if you dont think that a rememberance of dead soldiers is a political act then i suggest you go and look into some definitions of politics. Constantly repeating i have a narrow view point doesnt make your argument any stronger by the way. I also dont need a two minutes silence on the 11/11. at easter i wear an easter lilly to commemorate those who have died following republicanism. |
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| Cymro |
Welcome to the world of modern football Parkhead - overpriced and no standing unfortunalty is part of the game now! Of course, you are allowed to sing - Celtic pride themselves on the atmosphere they can create in parkhead. And most commentators acknowledge that Celtic have done a fantastic job in practically ridding Parkhead of 'negative image' songs which hasn't effected the atmosphere. It seems it's the away support that seem to think being away from Parkhead means its a free for all in singing those songs. Maybe you should base your behaviour on what Celtic ask, after all it's the club you support who will get punished.
You do have a narrow view point. Respecting those who died is a personal thing. The origin may be political but no politician can control what you think during a minutes silence. My Father and his father are massive pacifists (more than I am) and my late grandfather being a former Minister of religion and an ardent Welsh Nationalist along with my father, attended Rememerence Sunday Services untill he died, was wearing a Poppy etc and used it as a moment to remember all those Welsh Soldiers who where forced to die for the British State. You could say that is political but not the sort of 'political' the British state would want to promote.
So what you are essentially saying is that it's fine to remember those who died (by choice) during the Easter Uprising (which I agree with), but commemorating those who where forced to die in Wales, your Scotland and Ireland by the British State is wrong, because a Union Jack was involved. Nice work Parkhead! |
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| parkhead_rfb |
you just said its a personal thing.. if you want to remember it then go ahead, i dont dont to take part in a silence that incorporates soldiers killed in iraq and ireland and thats my choice.
it should also be noted that eufa arent even looking into celtic. this is a myth nicely spun by the scottish media who's theory is that if they are looking at rangers then the same must be happening to celtic. in fact celtic fans received a eufa award for their behaviour. This investigation into sectarianism with eufa has absolutely nothing to do with celtic. |
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| Corby Boy |
Spot on Parkhead about the UEFA thing, it is a Rangers issue only. Celtic FC are pretty damn proactive, on stamping on any bigoted bile sung by a minority of fans.
Seville in '03 looked like a great party, and I was pleased to see a good showing of Scottish flags among the tricolours - relecting the joint heritage of the club, ancient and modern. (By the way, as a Don's fan, we hate Rangers more than you!). |
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| Cymro |
Parkhead, firsly you don't have to take part. I and many more don't to to the War Memorial in my local town. But the War Memorial is a WW1 and WW2 thing, no mention of Ireland, Iraq etc on them. But, when at a sporting event and the message comes up that a minutes silence I believe as a mark of respect it should be acknowleges with silence. And that is what many Celtic fans have appologised for - some of their fans failing to keep quiet. Why do you find it so hard to accept that? And as for your Celtic being good comments. I whole heartley agree with you, as do most others. It's the Ultra Bluenoses that claim otherwise for obvious reasosn. It's just that Scottish football in general is going to be under added scrutiny due to the behaviour and attention the Rangers fans got. Celtic FC have tried to remove any risk to their own club, and the majority of fans have acknowledged that, as I said it's practicaly gone from Celtic Park now. But some Away Supporters still think they can do as they wish. Surely as a request from Celtic FC and the majority of fans this should be listened too (more so if you wish that had it come from UEFA of the Police). As Corby said, the party in Seville look fantastic. Personally I'd have liked to see a few more Saltires (and not the Green ones!) but there is a saying in Welsh "Nid Da Lle Gellir Gwell" (Not good where better can be achieved). |
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| parkhead_rfb |
why have celtic fans apologised for not keeping quiet during a minutes silence that didnt take place? you have lost me on that one. there wasnt a silence to disrupt. | ||||||
| Cymro |
From what I gathered listening to Real Radio, the match was at St Mirren and they had organised a minutes silence. Celtic denyed they knew anything about this and didn't go out for it, and it was at this event some of the Celtic Away fans started singing songs during the silence.
It was for this the Celtic fans appologised. Singing any song, be it You'll Never Walk Alone, Fields of Athenray, Soldier Song or anything else is unacceptable in any minutes silence, as is not bothering your arse to come out, everyone knows that football have minutes silence during the Rememberence Sunday period, so claiming they didn't know is verging on pathetic by Celtic Good win yesterday by the way! |
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| Congal |
I think the reason MAY be, because they view the whole thing as a Brit 'do'
poppies.the silence.,the lot. |
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| Cymro |
Judging from Parkheads responses I think you MAY be right. Which is a shame, because appart from the whole Cenotaph I think I personally don't see it as an exclusively Brit thing. | ||||||
| Congal |
Me either,but maybe thats expected of me  But they have Armistice Day in the U.S.A. although I think now its called Veteran's Day.
I can remember my wife and I getting a wee bit of abuse for wearin a poppy. Another time I was thinkin we were gonna get attacked from a crowd of young lads. But common sense prevailed......thankfully. Anway I think the shinners are coming round to marking it in some way. But ther'll be no poppies involved. Was just reading in the Irish News [last week I think it was] about how the parade formed up outside the B.L. they paraded into the town centre. The Roman Catholic ex-servicemen went into Mass in their church. The Protestants went to their church. They all formed up after the service and paraded back to the B.L. This was in Portadown.....if I remember right. |
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| frank rizzo |
I always thought those that wear the poppy in November done it to remember those that died in WW1 and WW2. I didnt realise it was a pro british, imperialist, anti Irish Republic statement.
I guess that's why I've seen celtic fans dish out abuse to a guy for wearing one as we came out Rugby Park a few years ago. I'm glad there wasn't a minutes silence at Parkhead as celtic and rangers record in staying silent has been an embarrassment to Scotland over the years. |
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| Congal |
Well, I think thats the way a lot of them look at it. A lot of Irish guys fought in both wars. But I don't think they were made very welcome when they came home. Taking the 'King's Shilling' and all that. I agree with you about silence....people nowdays seem to find it a problem to keep their 'gubs' shut for a minute. I'm not just talking about Remembrance Sunday. But life in general. I think the do the 'clapping bit' instead now. |
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| parkhead_rfb |
well then you are very misinformed. st mirren officially stated that they didnt plan one as there was no instructions from the spl to do so. |
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| Morph |
Parkhead is right, St Mirren didn't plan the minutes silence, the general manager stood up and said that it was his fault.
However Rememberance Day is about those who in Flanders Fields, as you stated, and in the second world war fought for what they believed in. The volunteering in the First World war was massive these people were not forced, not until 1916 anyway |
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| Cymro |
I can only go by the Celtic fans on Real Radio. It seems then that St Mirren have room to say sorry, doesn't alter the fact though that a number of Celtic fans still chose to sing Irish Republican Songs when their was an some what impromptu Minutes Silence during a match between these 2 Scottish clubs, which I still believe was not needed, and quite offensive. Not saying that Irish Rep Songs are Offensive, but the context was, they could have been singing anything at that moment and I'd be saying the same. | ||||||
| Congal |
Good song this.......A Pittance Of Time.....says it all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXd8AeZt1mc |
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