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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
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 Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:16 pm Post subject: eta prisoner close to death |
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Eta hunger striker close to death after removing tube
By Elizabeth Nash in Madrid
Published: 26 February 2007
An Eta prisoner on hunger strike in Madrid for more than three months faces imminent death after removing the nasal tube through which he was forcibly fed, and is now "taking no nutrients whatever", Spain's prison service said.
Inaki de Juana Chaos, who has served 19 years for killing 25 people, began his hunger strike last November in protest against a further three years imposed for publishing threats in a newspaper. He was transferred two weeks later to a secure hospital bed, and is reported to be gravely ill.
Recent photographs of a skeletal De Juana strapped to his bed have polarised public opinion and convulsed Spain's political class, already shaken by the Basque separatists' bombing of Madrid airport in December.
De Juana's extreme action, taken on Friday in an apparent fit of anger, presents prison authorities - who are legally bound to keep him alive - with a dilemma. Until now they have strapped him down for only 12-hour sessions while administering the feeding tube.
They may now have to bind him round-the-clock to stop him ripping out the tube, aggressive treatment of a weakened man that could threaten his life. De Juana could soon qualify for parole but says he will continue his hunger strike until he is freed. Tens of thousands protested in Madrid on Saturday to demand he serve his full term.
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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FreedomNow
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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I have no time for ETA or their murder of civillians so he deserves to be in jail or dead IMO.
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| FreedomNow wrote: | | I have no time for ETA or their murder of civillians so he deserves to be in jail or dead IMO. |
do you hold the same distaste for all armies then as you will struggle to find one which has taken part in conflict which hasnt killed a civillian.
i would hope you dont hold the view that its ok to kill civillians as long as your not a terrorist (i.e. doing it wearing a fancy uniform).
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | i would hope you dont hold the view that its ok to kill civillians as long as your not a terrorist (i.e. doing it wearing a fancy uniform). |
The IRA had fancy uniforms too judging by the photos of the IRA funeral parades I've seen - those lovely Top Gunesque sun glasses and berrets !  <- they look a bit like this icon!
I do admire someones strength of mind and conviction to in essence slowly kill themselves over a political issue through what I'd imagine to be horrific pain. I think these sort of 'marterism' would be far more successful than use of violence against others. Of course this is not me saying people should do this. I certainly couldn't and wouldn't!
And I don't buy into this idea that you can compare the IRA or ETA to a state Army be it the army of the Irish Republic, the UK or Spain. The two are very very different things. The targeting of civilians is wrong. Be that sending a couple of cruise missiles into a street to get some target and killing 10's of civilians in the process or planting a bomb in a fish shop or busy city centre to get some target but killing innocent civilians in the process. However, one within limits is a legal act (like it or not), and another is always illegal - and inexcusable in my opinion! |
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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:35 am Post subject: |
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The legal/illegal argument is bogus.
I oppose bombing civilians whether it is baghdad or benidorm and think that both should result in people being jailed.
Illegal acts such as those carried out by George Washington and others can lead to you being in charge of deciding what is legal or illegal, civil disobedience and violent uprising have led to the most imprtant historical developments. Illegal acts led to us being alowed to vote.
Remember, Hitler didnt do anything illegal, he simply made the rules that allowed him to kill who he wanted. Stalin made up warped laws to give him the freedom to arrest and kill anyone he wanted or to wipe out whole towns.
The Russian campaign in Chechnya is legal! |
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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:52 am Post subject: |
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I largely agree with you here Rinty. I'd also add though that the war on Iraq is legal. Ok, they didn't get the 2nd resolution etc, but an over riding law is that sovereign states still withold the right to use violence if necessary.
Personally I am not a pacifist. I don't oppose the idea of war. There comes a time when war is a necessary evil - a good example of this is Kosovo, and I'd go as far as saying we should be seeing a simmilar campaign in places like the Darfur now. Had they attacked Iraq for humanitarian reasons I'd support them. Alas this wasn't the case and hence why I personally oppose the war.
On the otherhand I do not support the right to use violence against other persons by civilians within a 'civil disobedience' context. I've been involved in acts of civil disobedience over the last few years regarding the Welsh language and do not regret that. I do think that when you go down the path of resorting to actual violence though it is a slipery slope to failure - Northern Ireland is a prime example of this. |
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parkhead_rfb
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Cymro wrote: | I largely agree with you here Rinty. I'd also add though that the war on Iraq is legal. Ok, they didn't get the 2nd resolution etc, but an over riding law is that sovereign states still withold the right to use violence if necessary.
Personally I am not a pacifist. I don't oppose the idea of war. There comes a time when war is a necessary evil - a good example of this is Kosovo, and I'd go as far as saying we should be seeing a simmilar campaign in places like the Darfur now. Had they attacked Iraq for humanitarian reasons I'd support them. Alas this wasn't the case and hence why I personally oppose the war.
On the otherhand I do not support the right to use violence against other persons by civilians within a 'civil disobedience' context. I've been involved in acts of civil disobedience over the last few years regarding the Welsh language and do not regret that. I do think that when you go down the path of resorting to actual violence though it is a slipery slope to failure - Northern Ireland is a prime example of this. |
the ira certainly didnt start the violence in the six counties in the 60's. Both the unionists and the british state are to blame for any violence which took place.
so cymro if you were in the situation of a nationalist in ireland in the 60's you dont think you would take up physical resistance?
if you had no work due to your religion, an extremely partisan police force and their even more violent reservists backing up loyalist gangs who were burning you out of your home, gerrymandered electoral boundaries and eventually foreign troops on your streets who then set about interning you and your family without trial. what would you have done written a very strongly worded letter?
lets not forget the scenes of what happened when nationalists did try and peacefully protest about their situation, these communtities were being vicously attacked and no one gave a s**t.
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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FreedomNow
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
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Location: Inbhir Àir
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | FreedomNow wrote: | | I have no time for ETA or their murder of civillians so he deserves to be in jail or dead IMO. |
do you hold the same distaste for all armies then as you will struggle to find one which has taken part in conflict which hasnt killed a civillian.
i would hope you dont hold the view that its ok to kill civillians as long as your not a terrorist (i.e. doing it wearing a fancy uniform). |
I dislike ETA because unlike the IRA they seem to have targeted the ordinary civilian rather than the army. Their style of war seems to be more similar to that of loyalist groups in the sense that they detonate no-warning bombs in city centres. Yes the Spanish state has handled the Basque Country badly and even commited state murder but I still disagree with their methods of warfare.
_________________
I will never apoligise for my Scottish blood, my Scottish mind or my love for my nation. You will never kill our will to be free.
ALBA GU BRATH - SCOTLAND FOREVER
FOR A SOCIALIST REPUBLIC OF ALBA
MAKE MONARCHY HISTORY |
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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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"I dislike ETA because unlike the IRA they seem to have targeted the ordinary civilian rather than the army."
Really? Were there soldiers stationed at warrington shopping centre?
The IRA were no different from ETA or the Spanish or British state forn that matter, in that they justify killing for their political goals, whether the vvictims are innocent or not.
The Basque situation is vastly different from Northern Ireland and I see no direct comparison but the IRA and ETA, in terms of military tactics, are (or were) much the same. |
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FreedomNow
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Joined: 07 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Rinty wrote: | "I dislike ETA because unlike the IRA they seem to have targeted the ordinary civilian rather than the army."
Really? Were there soldiers stationed at warrington shopping centre?
The IRA were no different from ETA or the Spanish or British state forn that matter, in that they justify killing for their political goals, whether the vvictims are innocent or not.
The Basque situation is vastly different from Northern Ireland and I see no direct comparison but the IRA and ETA, in terms of military tactics, are (or were) much the same. |
Some of the actions of the IRA were not right like as you say, the Warrington shopping centre or Omagh. But ETA have primarily targeted the normal Spanish population. I agree with their cause but not their methods.
_________________
I will never apoligise for my Scottish blood, my Scottish mind or my love for my nation. You will never kill our will to be free.
ALBA GU BRATH - SCOTLAND FOREVER
FOR A SOCIALIST REPUBLIC OF ALBA
MAKE MONARCHY HISTORY |
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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| ETA would say that they target castillian spain, its structures and institutions and economy. |
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FreedomNow
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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And to an extent they did but they also killed hundreds of innocents in the process.
_________________
I will never apoligise for my Scottish blood, my Scottish mind or my love for my nation. You will never kill our will to be free.
ALBA GU BRATH - SCOTLAND FOREVER
FOR A SOCIALIST REPUBLIC OF ALBA
MAKE MONARCHY HISTORY |
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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
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Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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As did the IRA while targetting "security forces".
Apart from the armed struggle I dont see why people associate the situation in euskadi with Northern Ireland.
The basques dont have a unionist majority, or much in the way of asny unionist population, they want to separate from France and Spain, not join with a neighbouring country, and Northen Ireland didnt live under 50 years of a fascist dictatorship. |
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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1382
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | Cymro wrote: | I largely agree with you here Rinty. I'd also add though that the war on Iraq is legal. Ok, they didn't get the 2nd resolution etc, but an over riding law is that sovereign states still withold the right to use violence if necessary.
Personally I am not a pacifist. I don't oppose the idea of war. There comes a time when war is a necessary evil - a good example of this is Kosovo, and I'd go as far as saying we should be seeing a simmilar campaign in places like the Darfur now. Had they attacked Iraq for humanitarian reasons I'd support them. Alas this wasn't the case and hence why I personally oppose the war.
On the otherhand I do not support the right to use violence against other persons by civilians within a 'civil disobedience' context. I've been involved in acts of civil disobedience over the last few years regarding the Welsh language and do not regret that. I do think that when you go down the path of resorting to actual violence though it is a slipery slope to failure - Northern Ireland is a prime example of this. |
the ira certainly didnt start the violence in the six counties in the 60's. Both the unionists and the british state are to blame for any violence which took place.
so cymro if you were in the situation of a nationalist in ireland in the 60's you dont think you would take up physical resistance?
if you had no work due to your religion, an extremely partisan police force and their even more violent reservists backing up loyalist gangs who were burning you out of your home, gerrymandered electoral boundaries and eventually foreign troops on your streets who then set about interning you and your family without trial. what would you have done written a very strongly worded letter?
lets not forget the scenes of what happened when nationalists did try and peacefully protest about their situation, these communtities were being vicously attacked and no one gave a s**t. |
Parkie, nationalists in Ireland are not the only people in history in the UK or beyond to have been treated appalingly by the British State (or anyother state). Being a Welsh Speaker, and a Welsh Nat I can certainly vouch for that. Still now, in my own country I have to fight for my language and have to go 10 times further to receive services in my language as opposed to in English. Where I can I resist the British State and those who try and undermine the Welsh language. Some go a lot further than me. However, violence against people has tended not to be the answer (appart from a small band of loonies who've since gone) and as a result we now have more in terms of the Welsh language than ever before - a Welsh Language Act since 1993, a television channel since 1982, a Welsh language radio station, significant investments in Welsh Education etc. We also have a Welsh Assembly which soon will have more power.
These are no where near my end aim, but what does Northern Ireland have to show for 30 years of violence appart from Peace Walls, Murals and an Assembly?
I'm not at all interested in this context in trying to justifying my stance by blaiming others and saying "yeah, but .... started it not us" as though it in some way justifies all wrongs. It doesn't.
More than criticising those individuals who did find that the IRA etc where the answers, I'm criticising the concept that violence was the answer. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If it wasn't for the violence suffered over the last 30 years we could well not be having this conversation now as Ireland would already by United. However as opposed to creating support for an United Ireland it created an enemy of those who wanted that genuine aim. Something which it is still trying to break away from, and will take a very very long time. |
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parkhead_rfb
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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i dont think you can quite compare problems with your native language to baying mobs outside burning you out of your home, i would say your house being set alight is a little bit more of an immediate issue.
if you can point me to another group in the uk who suffered with that severity i would be glad to hear about it. I suppose they could have called the police but then that was a bit of a problem as well given it was a could helping of them doing the actual burning.
People were being killed, maimed and having their homes burned to the ground, these people had no means of defense other than groups like the ira.
Whilst i am sure a strongly worded letter to the local council would have no doubt done wonders personally i cant blame these people for defending themselves.
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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FreedomNow
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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By all means they have the right to defend themselves against a corrupt bias government and corrupt police but why did they bomb a crowed a crowded shopping centre on a Saturday afternoon. What did they have to do with the struggle?
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I will never apoligise for my Scottish blood, my Scottish mind or my love for my nation. You will never kill our will to be free.
ALBA GU BRATH - SCOTLAND FOREVER
FOR A SOCIALIST REPUBLIC OF ALBA
MAKE MONARCHY HISTORY |
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parkhead_rfb
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| FreedomNow wrote: | | By all means they have the right to defend themselves against a corrupt bias government and corrupt police but why did they bomb a crowed a crowded shopping centre on a Saturday afternoon. What did they have to do with the struggle? |
Throught the 60's there was basically no ira to significantly speak of. After the attacks by the loyalists and the state in response to the civil rights movement the ira became those communities only forms of defence.
Then the troops came in and did nothing but be another form of attack on these communities.
clearly the british government had no intention of doing about the situation so the ira took on a campaign of damaging the one thing the goold old british government does care about, money.
These were not bombs designed to kill civillians they were economic bombs designed to damage the only thing the british really care about.
The ira were also willing to negotiate as far back as the early 1970's when they called a cease fire. unfortunately rather than see this as an opportunity to stop conflict the british saw it as a means to try and break the ira. sadly this was to be their tactice for decades.
yes the ira have made terrible mistakes in the past and although it will be little comfort to the families of victims they have acknowledged this and apologised to the familes of non combatants killed but the IRA were fighting a war and these things are an unfortunate product of these situations.
The sheer hypocrisy though of many people ragardin armed campaigns though is astounding. if you ask the public, politicians etc of their opinion of nelson mandella the over whelming response would be positive yet his group were responsible to many very similar acts as the ira carried out. Why is it never suggested in the main stream media that he is a murdered, targetted civillians etc?
Generally those who also criticise the ira cant give a decent alternative to what they would do faced with a baying mob setting their house on fire and a police force aiding the mob to do so.
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1382
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | i dont think you can quite compare problems with your native language to baying mobs outside burning you out of your home, i would say your house being set alight is a little bit more of an immediate issue.
if you can point me to another group in the uk who suffered with that severity i would be glad to hear about it. I suppose they could have called the police but then that was a bit of a problem as well given it was a could helping of them doing the actual burning.
People were being killed, maimed and having their homes burned to the ground, these people had no means of defense other than groups like the ira.
Whilst i am sure a strongly worded letter to the local council would have no doubt done wonders personally i cant blame these people for defending themselves. |
Parkie, I think you're pretty obvious belittleing of the fight to save a part of my culture from the might of the English language speaks volumes. It's sad, but saddly in this instance very unsuprising.
We all have parts of our identity we find important and treasure. My language, a language of my ancestors on the land of most of my ancestors is attacked, be it subtly by our neighbours and those living amongst us. The fact that this hasn't usually been done violently means bugger all.
I don't need a history lesson in Irish relations from you thank you very much. Maybe, looking at a wider Celtic history would do you some good though?
If you want me to look back I will. How about the entire population of a Welsh speaking village beeing forced out by Liverpool City Council so that they could flood it? How about another community being forced out to allow the British Empire to have a good training area for its military power?
Even now we have the British state working, far more sneekly to undermine my language. Now, people fight for my language in numerous ways - far more than writting a letter to my local council. People are being arrested constantly for their stance for the language. What have you done appart from play in a band and be a keyboard warrior Parkie?
I'll ask you again though given that you failed to answer me the first time. What did violence achieve for Northern Ireland and the Republican movement ? As far as I can see, nothing positive. It's peace that bought about what they are seeing in NI now. Could 30years of peace have bought about a different Ireland to what we have now? I think so.
In my opinion, the Republican Violence campaign played a huge part in prolonging British occupation of Ireland not bringing about its end as was indended.
On the other hand in Wales we have some pretty big development and are in the process of seeing others - this has been done by a variety of things I listed earlier - including letter writting. |
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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | These were not bombs designed to kill civillians they were economic bombs designed to damage the only thing the british really care about. |
And excuse my swearing but this is the biggest amout of s**t I have heard you spout yet. Sorry, but a 2 year old and an 11 year old are not f***ing economic targets they where kids. That organisation you support killed them in the name of Irish Republicanism. They where killed for nothing! Using your logic a 2 year old child in say the Falls Road is a genuine target for Loyalists if they can think up some simmilar fucked up reason behind it.
I am happy for Sinn Fein to be in joint power, I congratulate the party for this and the PIRA for the disarmament. I hope this continues so finally we can see some meaningfull inroads to getting rid of British occupation and move on from the 40 odd years of violence. |
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Cymro wrote: | | Quote: | | These were not bombs designed to kill civillians they were economic bombs designed to damage the only thing the british really care about. |
And excuse my swearing but this is the biggest amout of s**t I have heard you spout yet. Sorry, but a 2 year old and an 11 year old are not f***ing economic targets they where kids. That organisation you support killed them in the name of Irish Republicanism. They where killed for nothing! Using your logic a 2 year old child in say the Falls Road is a genuine target for Loyalists if they can think up some simmilar fucked up reason behind it.
I am happy for Sinn Fein to be in joint power, I congratulate the party for this and the PIRA for the disarmament. I hope this continues so finally we can see some meaningfull inroads to getting rid of British occupation and move on from the 40 odd years of violence. |
so the ira actually targetted these children did they?
also you said you are not a pacifist so what campaigns have you supported? this should be fun when we go into various acts of all armed campaigns...so lets have that one then when has violence been acceptable?
_________________
"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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