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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1382
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 Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | well then i ask you what republicans should have done? the civil rights campaign was met with state brutality the british response was to send in the army, who were then used to attack nationalist communites even further. Attacks on army bases dont cause changes in government policy so what is your grand solution. you can sit back and criticise the ira but what were the options should they just have sat back and took the state discrimination and violence? |
I've told you what Republicans should have done if they wanted to go down the Terrorism path.
Attacks on Military and Security insallations DO cause changes. They cause as much changes as attacking civilians would do. Look at places like Chechnya. Rebels are constantly attacking Russian soldiers. As a result Soliders and their families are increasingly deserting their posts. Attacks on British Insallations in NI, and on the mainland would have caused fear not only within the armed forces, but within their families and also within areas that house barracks and installations. The biggest fear states have with war is the body count effect. The public don't like to see flag drapped coffins returning from places of war.
I'd just like to note that I don't think this is what the various paramilitary organisations fighting for an United Ireland should do now. Merely stating that arguments that within war, civilian victims by IRA actions where inevitavble are unfounded. They could have done far more than they did to keep civilian victims away, but they didn't. Neither, am I saying that Terrorism was a good idea by the Republican movement in Ireland - that though is another argument for another time!
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 1974
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Babygael wrote: | Life is a multi-faeceted situation. Scots are not comfortable with killing civillians in shoppng malls, or onywher else.While we agree that yer sasannach are the worst kind of despot.,Still ya cannae kill yer ain' people?? I watched that video on the Omagh Bombing in 1998, an' I'm still greetin' fer yer!
Scotland is going to become independent of the sasannach one day.
We WILL be once more a people.While I do agree that the Loyalist will be in a pecarious situation when that day occurs.
An" excuse me parkhead, if the phone ahead warnings were effected, but guess wha'? It didnae work!! INNOCENT people died AND this is just playing into the sasannach hands!!
You got tae wheel an' come again!!
Puttin' on the woad BG    |
your statement seems to imply that only the english have opressed the irish. Sorry to burst your bubble but scottish soldiers have been equally, if not more, responsible for atrocities in ireland than the English. The black watch are one of the most hated regiments by the irish people.
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4249
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | well then i ask you what republicans should have done? the civil rights campaign was met with state brutality the british response was to send in the army, who were then used to attack nationalist communites even further. |
And what would you have done? These 'communities' had been rioting for days on end, every available policeman had been drafted in, they were tired - catching sleep in doorways when they could. In this case there was no one else to provide relief but the army. And I believe that the Civil Rights sorts actually welcomed their use until it was realised that they weren't going to be soft on rioting and order.
| Leathlaobhair wrote: | | Are they Fascists or Marxists? I wish their detractors would make up their minds... |
There's not really much difference between them at the extremes.
| Leathlaobhair wrote: | | They didn't set it up; they received multiple warnings of the blast and then directed the crowd towards it. |
I heard that conflicting warnings were sent in and the one that was given more weight actually directed people towards the blast area. I'm obviously no expert on the subject though.
| Quote: | | Omagh was allowed to happen by the authorities for political reasons. |
What authorities would these be then? Somehow I can't imagine a few folk in the RUC conspiring together to do something "political" which, if caught, would mean them spending the rest of their lives in prison. If you think it was MI5 then I reckon you're talking nonsense - no policing authority is going to listen to the instructions of a barely accountable body that has no actual authority over them.
This is a mad conspiracy theory that only you seem to put forward - you know it, I know it and everyone who's reading knows it. |
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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1382
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian, care to back up your claims that the IRA or another of the Republican Paramilitary groups bombed Scotland? |
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Lothian Sky
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 347
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | your statement seems to imply that only the english have opressed the irish. Sorry to burst your bubble but scottish soldiers have been equally, if not more, responsible for atrocities in ireland than the English. The black watch are one of the most hated regiments by the irish people. |
I often wonder what your motives are for posting on this messageboard rfb. Is it simply to bore us with your propaganda, or tell us how Scotland have "oppressed the Irish"? If so you are wasting your time, we all know there were Scottish regiments in Ulster. Maybe you want an apology or something? Do you think any of us were actually applauding it? Are you one of the 80000 Celtic fans who sings about freeing Ireland, and then votes for a brit unionist party? (Maybe you should be arguing with them!)
If not, what do you hope to acheive by browbeating people about Irish politics. I'm sure the message board said "Our SCOTLAND". Don't take the huff, I'm just curious. |
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 1974
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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i post on here because i want to post on here simple as that. Yes i would like the scottish parliament to apologise to the irish people and remove their troops from not only ireland but Iraq and whereever else their presence is used as a form of oppression. I am deeply ashamed that people from my country go to other countries and commit the type of acts that the blackwatch and other scottish regiments have played a part in. The title of the thread also indicated what the post was about if you dont like it then dont read it, simple as that. Many threads on here dont interest me but i dont go on complaining about them. The psot i wrote that reply to took a tone that only the english were to blame for atrocities in ireland when clearly that is incorrect, should i not point that out for risk of offending or boring you?
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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Lothian Sky
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 347
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| OK fair enough, of course you are entitled to post about whatever you want, but as far as the British government is concerned, you're preaching to the converted.. do you actually have any opinions about Scottish independence then, because I've never heard them! |
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frank rizzo
Nationalist
Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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I'd also like to know why so many Scottish Celtic fans go on and on about ending British rule in Ireland, yet support it's continuation in their own country?
Staying topical - step forward Billy 'Britain' Connolly for example.
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Proud to be Scottish, ashamed to be British. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | your statement seems to imply that only the english have opressed the irish. Sorry to burst your bubble but scottish soldiers have been equally, if not more, responsible for atrocities in ireland than the English. The black watch are one of the most hated regiments by the irish people. |
Indeed and your statement seems to imply that only the English and the Scots have oppressed the Irish. There are plenty Irish involved in retaining British rule in Ulster as well. |
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 1974
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| SLG wrote: | | parkhead_rfb wrote: | | your statement seems to imply that only the english have opressed the irish. Sorry to burst your bubble but scottish soldiers have been equally, if not more, responsible for atrocities in ireland than the English. The black watch are one of the most hated regiments by the irish people. |
Indeed and your statement seems to imply that only the English and the Scots have oppressed the Irish. There are plenty Irish involved in retaining British rule in Ulster as well. |
they call themselves british though and where as i dont feel they have the right to create a plastic state to suit their own ends they are entitled to decide their own nationality.
you will actually find that i have stated in the past that i vote for the ssp and have commented on a lot of other issues on this site you are clearly just choosing to ignore them lothian.
_________________
"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 1974
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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aventanian the nationalists actually took against the british when they began enforcing the unionist policies at stormont. An example of this would be internment without trial and the falls road curfer both of which were used against nationalists where as unionists went unaffected. you may also want to question why british soldiers were issued with a false green book which it was claimed was the ira's volunteer manual. the manual stated things like the ira wanted to kill protestants etc it was actually produced by the british establishment themselves, strange eh.
_________________
"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | they call themselves british though and where as i dont feel they have the right to create a plastic state to suit their own ends they are entitled to decide their own nationality. |
That's where the interpretation comes in. You don't view them as Irish. There are some who view themselves as Irish as well as British and possibly Ulster. Similarly, most of the Scots who support Britain in Ireland are those who are happy with Scotland subsumed by the Irish state. Just because those in Ireland have a different political view, doesn't make them less Irish. I would put the two cases on a par. And of those who support a Scottish state, I don't know any who want Scottish troups in NI. |
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 1974
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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i didnt say it did, they dont view themselves as irish though, in the majority of cases they would say they are British. Personally i would rather they felt irish but thats a personal decision and they are entitled to it. People who call those people irish then would be mistaken as they are not part of an irish state nor, and this is the most important aspect for me, do they feel irish.
_________________
"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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azzuri
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 3776
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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.....well then you can't have it both ways parkhead.
I don't feel British, so why you blame Scots Nationalists for blinkered views over issues which they don't support in the first place is confusing.
What's blinkered about it? I'm not British, I don't support any sort of British enforced rule in Ireland and I want to see an sovereign Scottish state.
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"Every single person on this planet is unique. Just like everyone else..." - Random Guy in Edinburgh Pub
Possibly the funniest site in the world, 'The Daily Mash' - http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/ |
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 1974
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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am i not right in saying that you support an independent six county state? which in effect would be to maintain a unionist dominated, british created plastic state.
i am a scottish nationalist and i am ashamed of the acts of scottish soldiers in ireland, iraq etc. you will find many scottish nationalists though who wish to imagine that all the bad things which occured under the empire were all the fault of the english when it simply isnt the case. There was also a discussion on here some time back about when scotland attempted to create its own colony before the act of union and the impression i got from that thread was that many felt the only problem with it was that it was a failure. personally i have a problem with colonisation period.
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | you will find many scottish nationalists though who wish to imagine that all the bad things which occured under the empire were all the fault of the english when it simply isnt the case. |
I think a lot of folk do blame the English. And rightly so, up to a point, after all it was mainly English expansionism that led to the Union in the first place. I think that is the perspective that those nationalists you are referring to come from. When seriously questioning folk on post-Union events, I doubt you will find many who believe that Scots have not had their part to play as well. I would tend to think of them as Brits though and conclude that once we became part of Britain, it was inevitable that some folk would use that to further themselves. Just as we say folk from all parts of the Empire (Ireland included) who took advantage of the situation.
| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | There was also a discussion on here some time back about when scotland attempted to create its own colony before the act of union and the impression i got from that thread was that many felt the only problem with it was that it was a failure. personally i have a problem with colonisation period. |
That's a very good point. It is inconsistent to be anti-British Empire on the grounds of imperialism, but supportive of a Scottish empire. If Darian had succeeded, who knows where it would have led us. I don't agree with colonisation either. This might show that not all nationalists are nationalists because they believe that Scotland would be a force for good in the world, but that they are nationalists out of self interest. Again, this is just one more facet of human nature. Just like in Ireland, where you get a government that supports US rendition flights etc. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4249
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | aventanian the nationalists actually took against the british when they began enforcing the unionist policies at stormont. An example of this would be internment without trial and the falls road curfer both of which were used against nationalists where as unionists went unaffected. |
Well that was the law - a soldier cannot disregard that. I'm sure more people would be up in arms if an army went in as peacekeepers and ignored the local laws and traditions of an area.
Internment without trial and curfews were indeed very extreme responses, but when you've got bombs going off and areas where it is virtually impossible for the police to enter without being attacked then I believe most governments would see that as a legitimate response.
| Quote: | | you may also want to question why british soldiers were issued with a false green book which it was claimed was the ira's volunteer manual. the manual stated things like the ira wanted to kill protestants etc it was actually produced by the british establishment themselves, strange eh. |
Can't claim any knowledge on that front, but I imagine it'd be great folly to misinform your own soldiers about the strategic actions of an enemy.
| Cymro wrote: | | Aventinian, care to back up your claims that the IRA or another of the Republican Paramilitary groups bombed Scotland? |
I'm fairly sure they bombed Glasgow twice or three times within a short amount of time during Maggie Thatcher's "oxygen of publicity" phase. I believe the Scottish media and the BBC ganged together at the timeand reported it as fireraising since no one was actually harmed.
I was under the illusion this was fairly common knowledge...
| Lothian Sky wrote: | | Do you think any of us were actually applauding it? |
I wouldn't go as far as to say 'applauding' but I definitely supported what is being branded oppression here. The army performed well 99% of the time and didn't cause the situation to end up like Israel.
| frank rizzo wrote: | I'd also like to know why so many Scottish Celtic fans go on and on about ending British rule in Ireland, yet support it's continuation in their own country?
Staying topical - step forward Billy 'Britain' Connolly for example. |
I don't recall Connolly ever talking about ending British rule in Ireland. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4249
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | i didnt say it did, they dont view themselves as irish though, in the majority of cases they would say they are British. Personally i would rather they felt irish but thats a personal decision and they are entitled to it. People who call those people irish then would be mistaken as they are not part of an irish state nor, and this is the most important aspect for me, do they feel irish. |
I don't care to make generalisations on people's identity. After all, I know a lot of Ulster people who support the all-Ireland rugby team for example, so there is an element of Irishness there.
I am Scottish, yet I do not support a Scottish state - nor would I answer 'Scottish' if someone asked my my nationality.
| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | am i not right in saying that you support an independent six county state? which in effect would be to maintain a unionist dominated, british created plastic state. |
I don't see how it's any more artificial than building a state around the fact that you're all on an island together...
| Quote: | | i am a scottish nationalist and i am ashamed of the acts of scottish soldiers in ireland, iraq etc. |
If you want to have a go at the Iraq situation, I ask you not to direct your bile at the British soldiers who have done their duty with great honour and distinction.
It's the politicians you should be angry at. |
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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1382
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Cymro wrote:
Aventinian, care to back up your claims that the IRA or another of the Republican Paramilitary groups bombed Scotland?
I'm fairly sure they bombed Glasgow twice or three times within a short amount of time during Maggie Thatcher's "oxygen of publicity" phase. I believe the Scottish media and the BBC ganged together at the timeand reported it as fireraising since no one was actually harmed.
I was under the illusion this was fairly common knowledge... |
I'm almost certain they didnt. I think it was some IRA policy that the Celtic areas didnt get 'hit'. I'm sure if they'd wanted to, Wales would have been a prime target. The main port into the UK from Ireland is Holyhead on Anglesey, many Irish live in the area as a result. On the main road from the port to England they would pass 2 RAF bases, 1 RAF airfield, 1 barracks and 1 army camp. Not one of them where hit.
I'm sure had Gloasgow been attacked the BBC etc would have infomred us. The only activity I seem to remember was I think that the Britghton Bomber was captured in a Glasgow safe house. That is not an attack though.
Last edited by Cymro on Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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| I have never heard anything about the IRA ever even attempting anything in Scotland. Not even a rumour on a private website. The only thing I can find that comes close is a suggestion that the UVF planted bombs in a couple of Glasgow pubs. |
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