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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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 Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:18 am Post subject: Voting at 16 |
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Good thing? I think the polls show it would benefit the SNP, Lib Dems and socialists, but most of all the SGP.
Lib Dems are in the paper today (http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/70713.html) joining the SNP, SGP and SSP in backing this. Can't see Labour going for it, but an SNP/Lib Dem coalition would surely now see it happen...
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Shadowman
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 94
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Since when does the average 16 year old know anything about the business of government? |
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agentmancuso
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2910
Location: Gone to the forest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Shadowman wrote: | | Since when does the average 16 year old know anything about the business of government? |
That's not much of an argument. Since when did the 'average' 26, 36, 46 year old know anything about the business of government either? You don't get the right to vote based on what you know, but on your eligibilty to participate in civil society, pay taxes etc. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Exactly, old enough to pay taxes, old enough to vote. |
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Shadowman
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 94
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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| 5 year olds pay VAT. Should they vote? |
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neil8r
Helping with the Count
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 359
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| SLG wrote: | | Exactly, old enough to pay taxes, old enough to vote. |
Not just that, old enough to be a parent and be married. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| Shadowman wrote: | | 5 year olds pay VAT. Should they vote? |
No, we should scrap VAT. |
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Aventinian
1 Strike
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 5541
Location: Oh, I get about a bit.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| SLG wrote: | | Shadowman wrote: | | 5 year olds pay VAT. Should they vote? |
No, we should scrap VAT. |
Should we also scrap all other taxes for under 16s then? Because I imagine that would lead to huge loopholes being exploited by parents.
No, I don't see any reason to lower the voting age. If there's to be any reforms in the area of young people voting, I believe they should bring back the university constituencies. |
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agentmancuso
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2910
Location: Gone to the forest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | SLG wrote: | | Shadowman wrote: | | 5 year olds pay VAT. Should they vote? |
No, we should scrap VAT. |
Should we also scrap all other taxes for under 16s then? Because I imagine that would lead to huge loopholes being exploited by parents.
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What other taxes? |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | Should we also scrap all other taxes for under 16s then? Because I imagine that would lead to huge loopholes being exploited by parents. |
And I didn't mean scrap VAT only for those under 18, but that it should be scrapped for everyone.
| Aventinian wrote: | | No, I don't see any reason to lower the voting age. If there's to be any reforms in the area of young people voting, I believe they should bring back the university constituencies. |
How did university constituencies work? |
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Aventinian
1 Strike
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 5541
Location: Oh, I get about a bit.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| agentmancuso wrote: | | What other taxes? |
Income tax etc, I suppose.
| SLG wrote: | | And I didn't mean scrap VAT only for those under 18, but that it should be scrapped for everyone. |
Fair enough.
| Aventinian wrote: | | How did university constituencies work? |
Well traditionally it was only the graduates of the universities that got to vote in university constituencies, which took various forms over the years. At one point, the ancient unis had their own MPs (or maybe even more than one), then they were joined together in several ways (the one that comes to mind is the Edinburgh-St Andrews constituency) and finally we ended up with the Combined Scottish Universities and Combined English Universities constituencies. I believe the CSU elected 3 members and the CEU elected 2, done on a PR basis.
Anyway since we've moved away from the idea of university 'membership' as such being the preserve of graduates, I believe it would perhaps be a good move to change the voters to the staff and undergraduates at the institutions. This would get politicians out on campuses, engaging with the young voters and actively involving them in political matters. It's something I can actually see working. Even, perhaps, if the same thing was done, but electing a few select members to the House of Lords.
I believe they still have the university constituencies in the Irish republic, although I'm not entirely certain. |
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Cymro
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1633
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| If you are old enough to die for your contry then you should be old enough to decide who gets to send you to die. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | Well traditionally it was only the graduates of the universities that got to vote in university constituencies, which took various forms over the years. At one point, the ancient unis had their own MPs (or maybe even more than one), then they were joined together in several ways (the one that comes to mind is the Edinburgh-St Andrews constituency) and finally we ended up with the Combined Scottish Universities and Combined English Universities constituencies. I believe the CSU elected 3 members and the CEU elected 2, done on a PR basis.
Anyway since we've moved away from the idea of university 'membership' as such being the preserve of graduates, I believe it would perhaps be a good move to change the voters to the staff and undergraduates at the institutions. This would get politicians out on campuses, engaging with the young voters and actively involving them in political matters. It's something I can actually see working. Even, perhaps, if the same thing was done, but electing a few select members to the House of Lords.
I believe they still have the university constituencies in the Irish republic, although I'm not entirely certain. |
Cheers Av. I'm not sure the how well it would work. Do folk get this vote in addition to their regional constituency vote? At the end of the day, I think it's up to the politicians who's constituency presently covers the staff and students of our universities to get in there and engage with them. I agree it doesn't seem to be happening, but there's no reason why it can't. I might think differently about electing people into a second chamber though. |
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Aventinian
1 Strike
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 5541
Location: Oh, I get about a bit.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Cymro wrote: | | If you are old enough to die for your contry then you should be old enough to decide who gets to send you to die. |
Nobody under 18 in the armed forces is ever sent to serve on the front line. |
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Cymro
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1633
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Come now Avetinan, you know as well as I do that these days you don't need to be sent to the frontline to 'die for your country'. At 16 you enroll to give your life if necessary for Queen and Country. |
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agentmancuso
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2910
Location: Gone to the forest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | agentmancuso wrote: | | What other taxes? |
Income tax etc, I suppose.
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5 year olds don't pay income tax. |
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Reluctant Hero
Jim Baxter is God...........really!!!!
Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 3168
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| agentmancuso wrote: | | Aventinian wrote: | | agentmancuso wrote: | | What other taxes? |
Income tax etc, I suppose.
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5 year olds don't pay income tax. |
Theoretically, 5 year olds could pay income tax.
It is just that not many 5 year olds earn more than their annual personal allowance circa 4 or 5k. But if they did, they would be taxed on the amount above the allowance. |
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agentmancuso
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2910
Location: Gone to the forest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Reluctant Hero wrote: | | agentmancuso wrote: | | Aventinian wrote: | | agentmancuso wrote: | | What other taxes? |
Income tax etc, I suppose.
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5 year olds don't pay income tax. |
Theoretically, 5 year olds could pay income tax.
It is just that not many 5 year olds earn more than their annual personal allowance circa 4 or 5k. But if they did, they would be taxed on the amount above the allowance. |
Amazing. I wonder what total contribution 5 year olds make to the exchequer! The personal allowance is currently £4895. |
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frank rizzo
Activist
Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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The tories and new tories will suffer most if this is introduced.
Another reason to back it.
_________________
Proud to be Scottish, ashamed to be British. |
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Rinty
Jim Baxter is God...........really!!!!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 3594
Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:35 pm Post subject: y |
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Actually 5 year olds would not pay tax on income even if over the thrashold and legally they dont pay VAT, it is their parents who pay tax when they buy stuff for 5 year olds.
I have never heard a decent argument for denying the vote to legal adults who are contributing to society.
Another thing is that 15 and 16 y-olds are more intersted in politics than 18 and 19 year olds, involving people at an earlier stage would perhaps keep them interested and involved.
My son is 17 and a good deal more informed than most people my own age. He pays tax and contributes to the economy.
No taxation without representation!
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