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"These arms will never bow down before the Empire"
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sandmountainslim
I Love 'Our Scotland'


Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 354
Location: Fyffe, Alabama

PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RFM wrote:
You see agentmancuso, we differ on a very fundamental, but elementry point. To you the government of Cuba is Fidel Castro; the overwhelming evidence is that he is an elected official, in elections which have been internationally observed, are not rigged or staged, and whether that sticks in your throat or not he is the Cuban people's choice.


Hitler was also freely elected.
Does this free him from the stigma of being called a "dictator"?
If I recall correctly there were elections held in the Soviet Union also.
WP


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sandmountainslim
I Love 'Our Scotland'


Joined: 17 Sep 2005
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Location: Fyffe, Alabama

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RFM,
I would like to invite you to the "Yankee and Saxon Chat" section of the ScotWatch/JRP Forums
http://sandmountain.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=yankees
You would make an excellent bogeyman and this forum is specifically for spreading propaganda Smile
WP
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RFM
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!


Joined: 09 Feb 2006
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Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank-you for the kind invitation Sandmountain, but my passing acquaintance with that site discourages me.
Hitler, you may recall, after being elected and assuming the powers of Chancellor and Commander in Chief of the Police and Military, through the Reichsicherheitshauptamt Act, suspended elections in 1938 and began his assumption of supreme legal, military and domestic authority. Castro has had to run for election every five years since 1976; and as I point out to agentmancuso, has never assumed or usurped the power or authority of any other Cuban governmental office. While the West has frequently charged, as they did with the USSR that an election without competing candidates is no choice at all, however in the USSR, and I am given to understand although I have no personal knowledge, in Cuba competing candidates do appear on the ballot.


Last edited by RFM on Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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sandmountainslim
I Love 'Our Scotland'


Joined: 17 Sep 2005
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Location: Fyffe, Alabama

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RFM wrote:
I am given to understand although I have no personal knowledge, in Cuba competing candidates do appear on the ballot.


Token candidates who dare not oppose the government.
WP
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RFM
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!


Joined: 09 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well you know, Sandmountain, that anybody who runs for election is liable to end up being elected. I take it a a simple minded sort of truism that a person who runs for elected office does thereby indicate they support the form of government they are running for office in. Else why bother to run?
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sandmountainslim
I Love 'Our Scotland'


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RFM wrote:
Well you know, Sandmountain, that anybody who runs for election is liable to end up being elected.


I am proof of that Very Happy
I don't much care for the government though.
WP
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RFM
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!


Joined: 09 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well good for you! Now that you are a part of government you can do something about changing it. It really is not necessary to look to foreign governments who want to interfere for help and assistance now, is it?
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agentmancuso
Collecting my 'Our Scotland' Pension!


Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2008
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RFM wrote:
To you the government of Cuba is Fidel Castro; the overwhelming evidence is that he is an elected official, in elections which have been internationally observed, are not rigged or staged


The point is not whether the elections are rigged or staged, but whether they are free. Obviously they aren't because Castro does not allow other parties to stand.
RFM wrote:

and whether that sticks in your throat or not he is the Cuban people's choice.

It doesn't bother me in the slightest. They are welcome to him. Castro seems very popular, probably more due to the American embargo than anything else. But being popular doesn't prevent him being a dictator.
RFM wrote:

As I pointed out to you, although you seem determined not to understand, running Cuba requires much hard work and the participation of professionals, technicians and people.

I don't see what relevance this has, unless you think Stalin ran the USSR singlehandedly?
RFM wrote:

They are able to do that despite an illegal and unlawful embargo which has done nothing to change that except make life much more difficult for Cubans.

It's a stupid embargo, and has probably done more to cement Castro in position than anything else.
RFM wrote:

In 1976, the Cuban people adopted a new constitution, wherein they decided their form of government would be socialist, that they were under constant attack by agents of the United States claiming political freedom but seeking to reverse the gains of the revolution and impose the old world order of Batista and American organized crime. The solution they adopted, which makes eminent sense to me, was a system of government which curtailed certain rights and freedoms that many other countries not in their predicament often enjoy, but also curtail in times of national threat. Look no further that America's war on terror and England's methods in Ireland for examples. Is it deplorable that governments do these things, certainly; is it necessary, apparently so.


As Benjamin Franklin said:

"Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
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RFM
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, Benjamin Franklin knew whence he spoke.
I suspect our discussion will be resolved shortly by passing events; Castro is reported to not be in good health. If the machinery of the Cuban government does what it is apparently intended to do, his demise will have no more effect on the country than George Bush's would have on America. Notwithstanding, I suspect you will see the embargo and vilification continued unless and until the Cuban community in America is allowed to return and restore the old order.
It is interesting to me that Europeans are entirely unaware of the deep racial and economic divisions thoughout South and Central America as well as the Caribbean. Historically a small white community of european descent has always kept tight control over that community's wealth and government. Cuba was the first attempt to change that scheme of things, and its success has provoked anger and outrage all over.
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agentmancuso
Collecting my 'Our Scotland' Pension!


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RFM wrote:
I suspect our discussion will be resolved shortly by passing events; Castro is reported to not be in good health.


Probably true. Despite my objections to socialism, I won't enjoy the resultant grotesque carnival of triumphalism set to sweep places like Miami any more than you will.

RFM wrote:

Notwithstanding, I suspect you will see the embargo and vilification continued unless and until the Cuban community in America is allowed to return and restore the old order.


From a purely tactical point of view, this is a deeply stupid way for the US to behave. If they were to lift the embargo, recognise the de facto government and encourage as much free trade as possible with Cuba then the socialist system would collapse from internal pressure within a decade.
RFM wrote:

It is interesting to me that Europeans are entirely unaware of the deep racial and economic divisions thoughout South and Central America as well as the Caribbean.


It's worse than that; hardly anyone in Europe knows a damn thing about Latin America. The Portuguese are a bit of an exception in that respect, but otherwise Las Americas would not feature on the European radar at all were it not for football. I shared a room in a hostel with a Cuban doctor for a short while; he was the fastest talker I have ever met.

RFM wrote:

Historically a small white community of european descent has always kept tight control over that community's wealth and government. Cuba was the first attempt to change that scheme of things, and its success has provoked anger and outrage all over.


Not the first I wouldn't say. And although I do object strongly to socialism, it's not for that reason.
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RFM
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes the tactic is stupid. Worse, it is criminal. If you read the Nixon-Kennedy presidential debates of 1960, you will see that American policy towards Cuba was an issue in that election. Notwithstanding Kennedy's view of accomodation and "wait and see" ,as you suggest, in one year he was nearly pushed into invading Cuba. Although he backed away at the last minute, two years later he was assassinated. It still remains to be a disgrace and a shame in the pages of American history.
Since that day American policy towards Cuba has remained exactly what Nixon had advocated in 1960.
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Babygael
Ready For Afterlife!


Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 2670
Location: Bajan land

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It is interesting to me that Europeans are entirely unaware of the deep racial and economic divisions throughout south and central Americia as well as the caribbean.Historically a small white community of european descent has always kept tight control over that community's wealth and government.


Never a truer paragraph has been spoken RFM! I am a scot born from scottish parents who died and as a result I was adopted to white english folk in the caribbean.I grew up there as a child and enjoyed the upper class life style over the black folk who were downpressed as they call it.

However,what bugs me more than well many things is that you hear about Usa scots/canada scots/Aussie scots/ and so on but I have yet to see a decent web site forum addressing the scots that were sent to the Caribbean and yes south America. And I have to ask why? What is so different about the Highlanders who were deported to these other places as opposed to the ones who were sent to the caribbean? People don't even know that after the battle at Culloden, any Highlander that wasn't killed immediately AFTER the battle was rounded up and shipped to Barbados as slaves,Hot off the battle field!

These folk get no recognition those who have survived here all these long years.Lots of them are so poor that even the few remaining poor black folk scorn them much less the rest of society!But they hang on in spite of it all.They get called,Scotland johnnies/red legs/ backra's /poor whites and here am I a Scot whose fortunes turned out so different in the Caribbean.I will not let anyone forget these forgotton hero's.
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RFM
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is one of humanity's tragedies, Babygael, that the New World was built on slave labor. There were essentially two forms of immigration, voluntary and involuntary. The old punishment of transportation was really remanding a human to a period of involuntary servitude, or slavery. You may also remember Robert Louis Stevenson's novel "Kidnapped" which began with the Uncle selling the nephew to slavery in the Carolinas in America. That was probably not an uncommon ocurrance of that time.There was another group, the Creoles as they are known in Spanish, who were the landowners who needed someone to work for nothing. They came voluntarily.
You are absolutely right that the old discrimination of slaveowner and slave is still perpetuated right down to the present day, albeit in a more disguised form. A person with a black skin in the Carribean is not a decendant of a landowner. Look at the so-called Cuban freedom groups in Miami, you won't see black faces among them. Look carefully at Fidel Castro with his kinky, black, wiry hair and beard and the color of the faces you see around him. That is what Cuba is about.
Interestingly, what you say about the Carribean is also true in the southeastern United States. Numerous dirt poor families with names like McBean, Coy, McLaughlin, etc. who are looked down upon not only by the middle-class whites but also the poor blacks. To keep them poor and divided amoung themselves, the middle classes and the ruling classes still foment the myth of racial superiority, right down to the present day. It is indeed one of human kind's greatest obscenities.
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RFM
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To agentmancuso, Avatar, Babygael and all the rest of you:

A Very Merry Chistmas to You and Yours!
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sandmountainslim
I Love 'Our Scotland'


Joined: 17 Sep 2005
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Location: Fyffe, Alabama

PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RFM wrote:
To agentmancuso, Avatar, Babygael and all the rest of you:

A Very Merry Chistmas to You and Yours!


I am like MaryAnn and the Professor, "and the rest" Wink
Merry Christmas to you and all else also.
WP
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Avatar
I need ma own bl**dy forum!


Joined: 26 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merry Christmas to you too RFM and have an excellent Thanks giving, wonderful Hogmany and the best new year Smile
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sandmountainslim
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stalin! I'm comin to join ya honey!
Looks like Castro will soon join the tyrants of old by assuming room temperature.
WP










MADRID (Reuters) - A renowned Spanish surgeon has been rushed to Cuba to treat ailing leader Fidel Castro, a Spanish newspaper reported on Sunday.

Jose Luis Garcia Sabrido, an intestinal specialist, traveled to the Caribbean island on Thursday aboard an aircraft chartered by the Cuban government, according to Spain's left-leaning El Periodico de Catalunya newspaper.

The plane carried medical equipment not available in Cuba in case the leader needs further surgery due to his progressively failing health, the newspaper reported.

Garcia Sabrido will carry out tests on Castro to see if he needs another operation after undergoing emergency surgery for intestinal bleeding in July, the newspaper said.

Photo

The top news, photos, and videos of 2006. Full Coverage

Officials at the Madrid hospital where Garcia Sabrido works declined to comment on the report. Cuban embassy officials were not immediately available for comment.

Cuban officials say Castro is not dying and will return to public life. His absence from the public eye has fanned speculation he is too ill to govern the country he has run since toppling dictator Fulgencio Batista in a 1959 revolution.

© Reuters 2006. All Rights Reserved.
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Avatar
I need ma own bl**dy forum!


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merry Christmas sandmountainslim Smile
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sandmountainslim
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Merry Christmas sandmountainslim Smile


Merry Christmas Smile
WP
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