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RFM · Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:50 pm Post subject:

Yes it is odd, no question about it. Remarkably, the first time I saw the west side of Glasglow, out by the Great Western Road, I was reminded of south Chicago.
In Cabrini-Green the housing authority had rules about crimes and firearms. Carrying a firearm would result in the immediate eviction and loss of your apartment. Most of the trouble makers came in from the surrounding nieghborhoods. But the place was always saturated with housing authority policemen, so trouble makers were usually picked up right away. It was a place where the white community believed you were not safe, yet many white working class communities like Irish Bridgeport and the East side, were then and still are places where nobody is safe.
For what it is worth, policemen have known for years that a handgun is the poorest form of personal protection. It seems to give its owner a degree of courage that is not justified by the facts. Read Frank Cirillo's book about his 20 years as a New York policeman who spent 2 years in a special squad that would wait in ambush to catch armed robbers who were robbing small shop owners and killing them. Almost all would try to shoot their way out; after 2 years of constant gun fights he resigned from the force as the tension and fear of being killed just grew too be too much. Read what he says about the handgun as protection.

sandmountainslim · Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:58 pm Post subject:

RFM · Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:29 am Post subject:

It is not a matter of having enough "power" at all. Almost invariably a person hit with a handgun is able to run for several blocks, able to shoot the other person if he or she is also armed, and many times able to simply get up and walk away even if hit several times in the head. The great myth is that somehow, "stopping power" is required for a handgun, but nothing could be further from the truth.
The police report that too often people who carry handguns think they are somehow invunerable and if they waive their gun at a person, that other person will behave like they do in the movies and simply give up. Almost invariably a homeowner who confronts a burglar with a gun has it taken from him by the burglar and used on him. So sayth the police who seem to know something about these matters.
In every case a person carrying a gun believes that the gun is an infallible Godlike means of protection and they place all of their hopes in the belief it will protect them- until it is too late.

sandmountainslim · Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:47 am Post subject:

RFM · Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:37 pm Post subject:

John Cirrilo wrote his book as a kind of protest about the New York PD's policies on the use of deadly force, he had no axe to grind so to speak. I have heard anecdotely many of his observations are true from other sources.
It is also true that some clown waiving a gun around is a threat to every man and and his dog. But it is more the concern of an accident than the threat of force that causes those kinds of hostilities to cease.
Cirrilo wrote about his tour of duty with a squad of police marksmen which was formed to deal with a crime problem in New York of many small businesses being held up and the store owners gratuitously killed by the robbers. Police policy required that the squad announce its presence and demand the robbers submit to arrest. This, it seems always started a shooting as these were people who were prepared to kill. Cirrilo learned quickly that exchanging gunshots was a dangerous business if the robber was never disabled by being shot and was willing and able to shoot back. By the way the police used shotguns.
So I guess if waiving a gun around is able to "cease hostilities" as you put it, there may be some percieved although misguided benefit. On the other hand if the other person is armed then you are engaging in a contest that may just cost you your life, when turning around and running would allow you to keep it.

sandmountainslim · Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:14 pm Post subject: