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Jimbo
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 630
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 Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | Jimbo wrote: | Aventinian.
The Normans were brought here on the invitation of David1 who was on very friendly terms with his Norman/English neighbour. They did not come as conquerors of Scotland. |
That's interesting, I've been looking into it since you wrote that and I have to say I never imagined the Normanisation of Scotland was quite so cordial. |
Yes, it was a slow process at first but once a few got hold they spread through the aristocracy like wildfire, marrying every free heiress in sight.
It was David's father, Malcolm Canmore, who decreed that English should be spoken (PCeltic was the language of the time) in honour of (some say to placate) his wife Margaret, an Athling. The decree was of little or no interest to the commoners and PCeltic continued but amongst the aristocracy French became the fashionable language in David's time.
She was the queen for whom Queensferry (north & south) is named. I'm sure I'm right in saying that her chapel is the oldest building standing in Edinburgh Castle.
May I suggest David 1 by Richard Oram.
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mairead
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 2949
Location: Argyll, Alba
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:01 am Post subject: |
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The Scots language is still spoken in most parts of the country but with many different dialects. EG the Glasgow speak is much different from Aberdonian dialect and the Ayrshire dialect. It appears to change slightly from county to county.
Gaelic, I am happy to say in making a comeback too.
BG.
we were not conquered, we were unfortunately 'united' against the will of the ordinary people.
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Babygael
Collecting my 'Our Scotland' Pension!
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 2385
Location: Bajan land
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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Ath-bheothachadh
Drink beer,don't drive...its cheeper! |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4249
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| mairead wrote: | The Scots language is still spoken in most parts of the country but with many different dialects. EG the Glasgow speak is much different from Aberdonian dialect and the Ayrshire dialect. It appears to change slightly from county to county.
Gaelic, I am happy to say in making a comeback too. |
I wouldn't call that Scots though. That's English, with some Scots influence and a regional accent. |
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FreedomNow
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 78
Location: Inbhir Àir
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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If you try and write down the Scots dialect and compare it to plain English they look quite different. Infact you could argue that it is a different language.
Excuse me sur kin ye pleez tell me whin the next train tae Glasgo is?
Compared to;
Excuse me sir can you tell me when the next train to Glasgow is?
Of cousre the dialect differs from east to west coast, Glasgow to Ayrshire, Ayrshire to Galloway. Unfortunately our original tongue isn't widely spoken at all and is really limited to the Highlands and Islands, although it was once the dominant tongue in the whole country before English influence eroded it's presence. IMO it should be taught in all schools. I certainly would have found it more interesting to learn a Scottish language than French.
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I will never apoligise for my Scottish blood, my Scottish mind or my love for my nation. You will never kill our will to be free.
ALBA GU BRATH - SCOTLAND FOREVER
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4249
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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It's no different to any number of other English dialects in this country.
That sort of thing isn't what I would call Scots, which I do identify as an English language, but not part of the English language.
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Anthropos
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Posts: 323
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| FreedomNow wrote: | If you try and write down the Scots dialect and compare it to plain English they look quite different. Infact you could argue that it is a different language.
Excuse me sur kin ye pleez tell me whin the next train tae Glasgo is?
Compared to;
Excuse me sir can you tell me when the next train to Glasgow is? |
If you write down many of the dialects of the English language they would not look very much like Standard English, for example a Jamaican might say:
Hey mon can yah tell me wheen da next train ta Glasgo heez?
I am not sure what your point is, though if you want to study historical linguistics there are several places it is taught.
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Anthropos ikane prophasis eis to dustukhein |
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Scott2006
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 305
Location: Outside Glasgow
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 12:30 am Post subject: |
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With a new government in Holyrood more likely to be interested in filling in the gaps in Scottish linguistic history - I was wondering if they might find the money to decipher the Pictish language which could provide jobs for linguists, historians, archaeologists & computer experts if say one of the latest super-computers was hired or rented for a short time to examine the problem.
The inscriptions and written forms of dead languages throughout Scotland have as much if not more to do with the living history of the Scots languages and should get as much money invested in research which has been taken by Gaelic lobby as about the only indigenous language still in existance.
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The Scottish Parliamentarians who voted for Treaty of Union in 1706 and signed away Independence had been voted for by less than 2% of the Scottish population |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 959
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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Scots isn't just English with a different accent, there are different words in Scots, and there
is even a different use of grammar in Scots. So why is Scots regarded as a dialect rather than a language ?
A friend of mine had a bright idea for a PhD, and he managed to get the University of Barcelona
interested. Great idea, they said. Of course, you will have to write up your thesis in Catalan.
He gave up at that point, which wasn't really necessary. He could have written it in English
and then got somebody to translate into Catalan. Besides, anybody who has a knowledge
of Spanish and French can find their way around Catalonia. Yet Catalan is a language. Why ?
Because the Catalan government says so. There are dialects of German which are more different
from standard German than Dutch is, yet they are just dialects while Dutch is a language. Why ?
Because the Dutch government says so. A hundred years ago, Norway was dominated by Sweden
as part of a United Kingdom. Anybody who can speak Swedish can understand Norwegian
if it is spoken slowly, yet Norwegian is a language. Why ? Because the independent Norwegian
government says so. That's the difference between a dialect and a language. A language
is a dialect with government backing. |
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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1260
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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It has been said that a language is a dialect with an army and a navy.
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Anthropos
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Posts: 323
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Coull wrote: | Scots isn't just English with a different accent, there are different words in Scots, and there
is even a different use of grammar in Scots. So why is Scots regarded as a dialect rather than a language ? |
I don’t see your point, a language as widely spoken as English is bound to have such differences, that doesn’t make it a different language, there are many words that a Glaswegian and an Aberdonian wouldn’t share but we don’t talk about the Glaswegian language. Australians have developed their own words as have various areas of America, and India is developing its own varieties of English as other places.
To try and answer your question, the problem is that while you could have a amiable blether in your local Scottish dialect (or indeed anywhere else where a variety of English is spoken), but if you wanted to write a technical or scientific paper you would find yourself forced into Standard English. It is a dialect because it is not a whole language on its own.
| Dave Coull wrote: | A hundred years ago, Norway was dominated by Sweden as part of a United Kingdom. Anybody who can speak Swedish can understand Norwegian if it is spoken slowly, yet Norwegian is a language. Why ? Because the independent Norwegian government says so. That's the difference between a dialect and a language. A language
is a dialect with government backing. |
Well if your definition of a language is something a government backs then you are entirely correct, and under such a definition it would be possible for hundreds of new languages to spring up on a daily basis. Any Arabic speaking state could declare their variety of Arabic a language, or indeed Scotland could have Glaswegian and Aberdonian.
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Anthropos ikane prophasis eis to dustukhein |
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Anthropos
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Posts: 323
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | It has been said that a language is a dialect with an army and a navy. |
Yes indeed that saying has been trotted out many times, and no doubt will be again, however Canada, the USA, New Zealand and Australia, all have armies and navy's, so why don't they have languages too?
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Anthropos ikane prophasis eis to dustukhein |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Anthropos wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | | It has been said that a language is a dialect with an army and a navy. |
Yes indeed that saying has been trotted out many times, and no doubt will be again, however Canada, the USA, New Zealand and Australia, all have armies and navy's, so why don't they have languages too? |
In the past they would have and they still might, in time. You already have American English. However, I expect modern media to slow the divergence between American English and English English that would have lead to the evolution of clearly different languages. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Anthropos wrote: | | I don’t see your point, a language as widely spoken as English is bound to have such differences, that doesn’t make it a different language, there are many words that a Glaswegian and an Aberdonian wouldn’t share but we don’t talk about the Glaswegian language. Australians have developed their own words as have various areas of America, and India is developing its own varieties of English as other places. |
There are features of the language local to Aberdeen and Glasgow that are found in common between them, but not in standard English. That might signify a seperate language.
| Anthropos wrote: | | To try and answer your question, the problem is that while you could have a amiable blether in your local Scottish dialect (or indeed anywhere else where a variety of English is spoken), but if you wanted to write a technical or scientific paper you would find yourself forced into Standard English. It is a dialect because it is not a whole language on its own. |
There are many official languages that are clearly unique languages in linguistic terms that lack the ability to evoke complex scientific concepts. Would you argue that these are not in fact languages? |
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agentmancuso
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 1812
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott2006 wrote: | With a new government in Holyrood more likely to be interested in filling in the gaps in Scottish linguistic history - I was wondering if they might find the money to decipher the Pictish language which could provide jobs for linguists, historians, archaeologists & computer experts if say one of the latest super-computers was hired or rented for a short time to examine the problem.
|
It's bad enough having to listen to people pretending that sub-literate proletarian grunting constitutes a separate language just because they suffer from a desperate need to discover significant cultural differences with our southern neighbour, but the idea that the state would waste vast sums of taxpayers' money on esoteric onanism of this kind is utterly outrageous.
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes, I hate esoteric onanisms. |
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FreedomNow
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 78
Location: Inbhir Àir
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Anthropos wrote: | | FreedomNow wrote: | If you try and write down the Scots dialect and compare it to plain English they look quite different. Infact you could argue that it is a different language.
Excuse me sur kin ye pleez tell me whin the next train tae Glasgo is?
Compared to;
Excuse me sir can you tell me when the next train to Glasgow is? |
If you write down many of the dialects of the English language they would not look very much like Standard English, for example a Jamaican might say:
Hey mon can yah tell me wheen da next train ta Glasgo heez?
I am not sure what your point is, though if you want to study historical linguistics there are several places it is taught. |
Just that it looks different when written down to standard English.
_________________
I will never apoligise for my Scottish blood, my Scottish mind or my love for my nation. You will never kill our will to be free.
ALBA GU BRATH - SCOTLAND FOREVER
FOR A SOCIALIST REPUBLIC OF ALBA
MAKE MONARCHY HISTORY |
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Scott2006
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 305
Location: Outside Glasgow
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| agentmancuso wrote: | | Scott2006 wrote: | With a new government in Holyrood more likely to be interested in filling in the gaps in Scottish linguistic history - I was wondering if they might find the money to decipher the Pictish language which could provide jobs for linguists, historians, archaeologists & computer experts if say one of the latest super-computers was hired or rented for a short time to examine the problem.
|
It's bad enough having to listen to people pretending that sub-literate proletarian grunting constitutes a separate language just because they suffer from a desperate need to discover significant cultural differences with our southern neighbour, but the idea that the state would waste vast sums of taxpayers' money on esoteric onanism of this kind is utterly outrageous. |
So agentmancuso a sum of money equivalent to a grant for 10 PhDs for a project that would cost less than a thousandth of the cost of a certain building in Edinburgh no matter how much the cost of knowledge may escalate - and unlock the actual history of our forebears - which could lead to a new understanding and a higher profile across the world resulting in a tourist boom that could repay the outlay many times over.
Would rich tourists from Japan, Europe or America want to go to a land where a dead language has been recently translated into a form that can be put into plain Japenese, French, German etc.?
Scotland needs every advantage it can gain to advance the standard of living in the more rural areas - this is a gold mine just waiting to be discovered.
So vent your biblical self-pleasuring contempt at some other idea.
_________________
Scotland deserves a First rate Parliament for a First rate People
The Scottish Parliamentarians who voted for Treaty of Union in 1706 and signed away Independence had been voted for by less than 2% of the Scottish population
Last edited by Scott2006 on Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 959
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:08 am Post subject: |
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Anthropos wrote
> a language as widely spoken as English is bound to have such differences,
> that doesn’t make it a different language
One reason why Scots is a different language from English is because
it always was. Both languages developed as particular variations of a common
Germanic language, but Scots developed differently from English. There
are many words in Scots which are different from English, some of them
adapted from Gaelic, for instance. But also there are differences in grammar.
> there are many words that a Glaswegian and an Aberdonian wouldn’t
> share but we don’t talk about the Glaswegian language.
No, there is a Glaswegian dialect of the Scots language.
> Australians have developed their own words as have various areas
> of America, and India is developing its own varieties of English
Exactly, they are developing their own varieties of ENGLISH.
The difference is that Scots goes all the way back to before
there was such a thing as the English language. Both
languages developed around the same time. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4249
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Coull wrote: | Scots isn't just English with a different accent, there are different words in Scots, and there
is even a different use of grammar in Scots. So why is Scots regarded as a dialect rather than a language ? |
Generally I don't think it is. However to say that virtually anybody in modern day Scotland speaks Scots is a bit of a joke.
| Quote: | That's the difference between a dialect and a language. A language
is a dialect with government backing. |
Perhaps in practice.
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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