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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 1974
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 Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Cymro wrote: | | parkhead_rfb wrote: | i dont think you can quite compare problems with your native language to baying mobs outside burning you out of your home, i would say your house being set alight is a little bit more of an immediate issue.
if you can point me to another group in the uk who suffered with that severity i would be glad to hear about it. I suppose they could have called the police but then that was a bit of a problem as well given it was a could helping of them doing the actual burning.
People were being killed, maimed and having their homes burned to the ground, these people had no means of defense other than groups like the ira.
Whilst i am sure a strongly worded letter to the local council would have no doubt done wonders personally i cant blame these people for defending themselves. |
Parkie, I think you're pretty obvious belittleing of the fight to save a part of my culture from the might of the English language speaks volumes. It's sad, but saddly in this instance very unsuprising.
We all have parts of our identity we find important and treasure. My language, a language of my ancestors on the land of most of my ancestors is attacked, be it subtly by our neighbours and those living amongst us. The fact that this hasn't usually been done violently means bugger all.
I don't need a history lesson in Irish relations from you thank you very much. Maybe, looking at a wider Celtic history would do you some good though?
If you want me to look back I will. How about the entire population of a Welsh speaking village beeing forced out by Liverpool City Council so that they could flood it? How about another community being forced out to allow the British Empire to have a good training area for its military power?
Even now we have the British state working, far more sneekly to undermine my language. Now, people fight for my language in numerous ways - far more than writting a letter to my local council. People are being arrested constantly for their stance for the language. What have you done appart from play in a band and be a keyboard warrior Parkie?
I'll ask you again though given that you failed to answer me the first time. What did violence achieve for Northern Ireland and the Republican movement ? As far as I can see, nothing positive. It's peace that bought about what they are seeing in NI now. Could 30years of peace have bought about a different Ireland to what we have now? I think so.
In my opinion, the Republican Violence campaign played a huge part in prolonging British occupation of Ireland not bringing about its end as was indended.
On the other hand in Wales we have some pretty big development and are in the process of seeing others - this has been done by a variety of things I listed earlier - including letter writting. |
so you dont actually think your house being on fire and a mob outside of it waiting to attack you is more of a serious and pressing concern than a language issue?
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1382
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | Cymro wrote: | | Quote: | | These were not bombs designed to kill civillians they were economic bombs designed to damage the only thing the british really care about. |
And excuse my swearing but this is the biggest amout of s**t I have heard you spout yet. Sorry, but a 2 year old and an 11 year old are not f***ing economic targets they where kids. That organisation you support killed them in the name of Irish Republicanism. They where killed for nothing! Using your logic a 2 year old child in say the Falls Road is a genuine target for Loyalists if they can think up some simmilar fucked up reason behind it.
I am happy for Sinn Fein to be in joint power, I congratulate the party for this and the PIRA for the disarmament. I hope this continues so finally we can see some meaningfull inroads to getting rid of British occupation and move on from the 40 odd years of violence. |
so the ira actually targetted these children did they?
also you said you are not a pacifist so what campaigns have you supported? this should be fun when we go into various acts of all armed campaigns...so lets have that one then when has violence been acceptable? |
Erm Parkie, are you actually that stupid? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that if you put a bomb in a lovely white transit van or in a bin in a busy shopping centre on a busy shopping day like Saturday then there is a pretty good chance that children will get killed or in the very least injured isn't there Parkie. If the IRA where not wanting to hurt innocent children then why not set a bomb off say in the middle of the night?
They will have thought of this if they have half a brain. They descided not to.
This tells me that it wasn't destroying the British Economy that was behind the sort of attacks that took place on Warrington but frightening the people of the mainland into demanding that their government moves out of Ireland. And, therefore these children where no more than accepable collateral for that organisation YOU support.
And as for your second message. I've made it quite clear my support for an United Irish Republic, but my opposition for a campaign of violence to achieve that. Now, you on the other hand seem to think that the Irish are the only ones to have suffered and therefore they are some special case that justifies violence - of course violence against them is wrong though. How does that work Parkie?
As for my stance and my lack of pacifism and a violent campaign. I'll list you some easy examples....you're right - it is fun!
1. Have you heard of a group called Meibion Glyndwr? They used to burn down holiday homes in a campaign to try and have more strict control over the housing market in parts of Wales. Communities in Wales have become no more than holiday villages dead more most of the year as houses are owned by people from all across the UK and beyond. A significant number of homes where destroyed in this campaign spanning several years. People who owned second homes here became frightened. Guess how many where injured Parkie? I'll give you a cluse...it was less that 1.
Now, I think this campaign would have been far more successfull had they not burnt them down, as no one can live in a house devastated by fire. I think occupation of the homes would have been far more successfull. However, it is an example of violence, or an act of terror with out a physical victim.
2. Another example for you is the bombing of resevoirs - it effected the water being carried to England, it hurt them in their pockets. Yet, again no one was injured. Or how about
3. And finally, the burning of a military firing range in Penllyn in the 1930s. Again no one was hurt.
Ok, these failed - we still have a huge amount of holiday homes here, we still have large parts of my country flooded to supply water for England, and it took a bit longer for the firing range in Penllyn to close. But what did the IRA achieve? Oh, yes nothing.
So I'll say it again. The IRA in several instances did target people, they opted out of a campaign at infrastructure where fear and financial cost was the price for the British state to that of blood on the street.
With regards to which is most important. Well to me on a day to day basis it's the demise of the language. Even in Northern Ireland, there is a big campaign now for an Irish Language Act. Several thousand people came to the last protest attended by Sinn Fein and other organisations. They find this issue important. You though are living in the past, while sitting as a key board warrior in Glasgow.
And finally, as I see you are back in your "la la la I'm not listening mode", will you answer this question please?
What did violence achieve for Northern Ireland and the Republican movement ? As far as I can see, nothing positive. It's peace that bought about what they are seeing in NI now. Could 30years of peace have bought about a different Ireland to what we have now? I think so.
And while I'm at it. What have you done for the cause? Typed on a few message boards? Flown a flag at Celtic Park. Played in a band. I'm sure the British Establishment and quacking in their red white and blue boots. Let me know if you need a hand with writting a letter to them. You never know, you might enjoy it!  |
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 1974
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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you should press for a new emergency service. there is one for the fire brigade, what they obviously really need is a "help my language is being eroded brigade".
dont be so f***ing stupid as to suggest someone outside your house wanting to burn you and your family out is not more immediately serious than a long term plan to attack a language. This was a serious and immediate attack on life.
The ira phoned warnings in attacks they carried out so that civillians could be cleared from those areas. If they wanted to kill civillians they could have done so on a far, far, far higher scale than they did. as for why didnt they do it at night well really thats pretty obvious one, if your going to plant a bomb its maybe better to do so in the day time then phone a warning to clear the area rather than go down in the middle of night when your far more likely to end up caught and facing a life sentence when your caught.
believe it or not the ira were actually technically very clever in the vast majority of operations they did pull off, even the brits themselves had to admit that.
I notice though you avoided any campaigns where actual violence was used in your wee list.
was the second world war acceptable?
were the anc acceptable?
Also in the immediate term the IRA were the only line of defence by communties who were being attacked by the state and groups of loyalists.
You seem to be equating the fact that the 06 is still occupied with total failure. that shows a total lack of knowledge about the ira in general.
the vast majority of republicans realised that they would never be able to defeat the british by armed campaign alone and that eventually a political route would be needed. As I have also said the ira were willing to negotiate as far back as the early 70's but the brits as usual acted in bad faith and saw it as a means to break the ira. so with no other realistic alternative they continued their campaign.
now many republicans feel they have an agreement which eventually will allow them to bring about a united ireland, so the violence has stopped.
People are very quick to criticise the ira for their campaign but never seem so quick to offer realistic alternatives.
and your right i have done nothing but play in a band and wave a flag at parkhead, dont worry though if i do do anything else the first thing i will do is come and tell everyone about it on a public mesage board....... 
good to see you getting personal though, maybe its like that thing at school and you really just fancy me.
_________________
"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1382
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | you should press for a new emergency service. there is one for the fire brigade, what they obviously really need is a "help my language is being eroded brigade". |
I take it that this was an attempt at humour.
| Quote: | | dont be so f***ing stupid as to suggest someone outside your house wanting to burn you and your family out is not more immediately serious than a long term plan to attack a language. This was a serious and immediate attack on life. |
Go back and read my post again. And if you find it confusing, read it again. But to explain to you one more time - for me, living in North Wales, in my community the attack on my language and it's demise is my priority, alongside more and more power for Wales with the aim of becoming independent. This isn't a long term campaign to undermine the Welsh Language. Unlike some, I am aware of what goes on beyond my 'zone of interest'. I whole heartedly support the aim to make Ireland United, I also suport Scottish Independence, a ressurgence in the Gaelic Language in Scotland, and the Irish Language in Ireland (the island as a whole).
An immediate attack on life is a serious thing. You'll find I never claimed otherwise. My point is, which you seem to be unable/unwilling to accept is that an armed struggle by the Provos and other organisations actually undermined the belief of an United Irish Republic. They made an enemy out of what is a perfectly reasonable desire for your country. The made it easier for thugs to justify attacks innocent people for being nothing more than Catholics or Republicans.
You proclaim the IRA as the defenders. I know they made considerable use of this, and to an extent it was true. The no go areas of Belfast and Derry enabled them to model themselves on being the security force of the Catholics, with some localised success in terms of acceptance by the general population. The establishment of DAAD as a cover also reinforced this image they tried to proclaim.
However, defending Catholic Communities from the UDA, UVF, LVF (which where far more systematic in their targeting of Catholics purely for being Catholics than the other Loyalist groups) does not by any stretch of the imagination goes as far as bombing Warrington, pubs in London or Birmingham, Manchester etc.
I can accept to a point attacks on the RUC and the Army - at the end of the day as a tool of the state they are targets and they know that. I can even go as far as saying the bombing or attacking infrastructure in order to cause cost and alarm is justifiable. But to say "yeah well they gave warnings" is nothing but daft. I'm sorry, but you must be aware of the fact bombs aren't exactly 'safe', and 100% relable. You put a van filled with bombs in a busy shopping centre on a busy day. How can you know that the attack will go to plan? You can't. If they set a bomb off lets say in the middle of the night, I could accept then that the PIRA or who ever made efforts not to target people. You say that there is more likely hood of getting caught. So not getting caught was more important than ensuring that innocent people where not killed is it? The placing of a bomb in a busy shopping centre on a saturday (therefore no school) does say that they where willing to accept casualties including children.
I also remember a failed attack in the early 90's by the PIRA on Chester Shopping Centre. The bomb failed and it was blown up in a controled explosion. The bomb was in a bin, outside the Disney Store! I was there that day. I wasl also in Warrington (though another part of the place) a day before the bomb went off there.
During my visit to Belfast two weeks ago, I visited the Falls Road, and the Shankill. I came across two murals in the Shankill which sounded remarkably like what you where saying the IRA where doing:
Here's one of them
[img]http://farm1.static.flickr.com/226/521737387_4babfa49e5.jpg?v=0[/img]
Basicly propoganda.
| Quote: | | I notice though you avoided any campaigns where actual violence was used in your wee list. |
Erm, Parkie, maybe that would be because I don't agree with using violence against other members of the public by a terror group. I can only actually think of two examples where it was intended to hurt people. One was an attempt to blow up the Royal Train as it travelled to Bangor. The two bombers accidently blew themselves up. The other was a bombing of the Peace Temple in Cardiff. Again, they failed - Charles was made Prince of Wales unfortunatly.
| Quote: | | was the second world war acceptable? |
Unfortunatly, yes. Certain individual such as the firebombing of Dresden though where unacceptable. As a whole though the need to go to war against the Nazis certainly was acceptable.
| Quote: | | were the anc acceptable? |
Use of violence against people, no. What they actually stood for - i.e. an end to apartheid, yes.
| Quote: | You seem to be equating the fact that the 06 is still occupied with total failure. that shows a total lack of knowledge about the ira in general.
the vast majority of republicans realised that they would never be able to defeat the british by armed campaign alone and that eventually a political route would be needed. As I have also said the ira were willing to negotiate as far back as the early 70's but the brits as usual acted in bad faith and saw it as a means to break the ira. so with no other realistic alternative they continued their campaign. |
The IRA fought for an end to British occupation of Ireland. They moved from an all out war during the border campaign (which they messed up well and truely) to that of individual acts of terror and guerrilla warfare.
But, again, as I've sad this didn't need to go as far as targetting civilians. There is a world of difference between the likes of the Brighton Bomb and the Warrington Bomb. There is a world of difference between attacking an Army Base and attacking a pub - even if that pub is popular with soldiers.
| Quote: | | People are very quick to criticise the ira for their campaign but never seem so quick to offer realistic alternatives. |
Oh they do Parkie. A realistic alternative would have been to continue with the whole Civila Rights movement. It wasn't supposed to be easy. But, it would have had more chance of being a success and drawing in more and more support than an armed struggle.
| Quote: | | and your right i have done nothing but play in a band and wave a flag at parkhead, dont worry though if i do do anything else the first thing i will do is come and tell everyone about it on a public mesage board....... |
What ever you say Parkie, keep on dreeming and playing your drum. And I'll keep on living in the real world. We'll see who'll see success first eh?
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gordon899
Gaining a Reputation........
Joined: 07 Jun 2007
Posts: 188
Location: kilmarnock
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| FreedomNow wrote: | | I have no time for ETA or their murder of civillians so he deserves to be in jail or dead IMO. |
i would concur. ETA has been a sham for years now, even thier own people despise their murderous ways. they need to learn that the bullet and the bomb do not work. |
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